WEBVTT - Meta has removed fact checking. Why? 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:05.600 Already, and this is the daily This is the Daily OS. Oh, 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:16.160 now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to the 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.120 Daily OS. It's Thursday, the ninth of January. I'm Zara, 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:23.840 I'm Sam. Yesterday, Meta founder Mark Zuckerberg announced major changes 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:27.680 to the company's social media moderation policies. In a video 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:31.040 posted to socials, Zuckerberg said Meta would no longer use 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.320 independent fact checkers in a move to restore what he 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:38.240 called free expression for its users, and also to reduce 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.360 the number of mistakes he believed had been made. It's 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.839 a significant departure for the social media behemoth and has 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.240 drawn praise from ex owner Elon Musk and incoming US 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:49.600 President Donald Trump. 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.360 It's crazy to think that there was a time without Meta. 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.280 I mean yeah, it's pretty much one of the companies 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:00.800 that shapes the twenty first century. 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:02.960 Evasive in every part of my life. 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:04.520 And it's continuing to change. 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.520 My partner on Meta, and my business exists on Meta. 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:09.119 One hundred percent hit rate for Meta. 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.160 It's in every part of our lives. And that's why 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.640 these changes are so important to talk about. Before we 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.000 get to the changes themselves, what was the state of 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:17.440 play before this announcement. 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:21.640 Yeah, So since twenty sixteen, Meta has used what it 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:27.680 called third party moderators to essentially identify false claims, misinformation, disinformation, 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:32.240 and hoaxes on all of its platforms, so across Facebook, Instagram, 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:36.319 and WhatsApp. In his video, Zuckerberg said that after Donald 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.360 Trump won the election back in twenty sixteen, so not 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.399 this most recent time, but back then, he said that 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.200 legacy media wrote NonStop about how misinformation was a threat 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:50.279 to democracy, and Zuckerberg said that Meta, as a result 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:52.160 of all of that discourse and as a result of 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.160 I guess that concern, he said that Meta tried in 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.800 good faith to address those concerns. And that's why these 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:01.640 fact checkers were in introduced in the first place as 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.520 an almost response to the election of Donald Trump, which 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:06.840 is an interesting point that we'll get to a bit later. 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:09.440 And so the way that it has worked up until 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:12.880 now is that these moderation teams, and there's about ninety 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:16.480 organizations across dozens of countries who work as part of 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.079 these teams. What they do is look very closely at 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:24.079 content that either they or other users have identified as 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.560 being false or misleading. So you, as a user can 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.480 identify something, can click and say this is hate speech 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.160 or this is misinformation or whatever it is. That's then 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:38.239 reviewed by these people. The moderators then rate the accuracy 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:42.400 of the post based on their factual review, and med 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:44.720 can then add a warning label and the fact check 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:47.800 is rating to the posts and then reduce its distribution, 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:51.840 so affect how that post can be seen across the algorithm. 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:54.480 And that's where you also see those kind of lighter 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.760 boxes underneath the post that says this might not be true. 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.760 Here's a link to a government website. Remember, particularly in 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.120 the pandemic, there was a lot of those underneath posts 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.840 about vaccines or about the spread of the virus. So 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.640 that's the way it's worked until now. Talk me through 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:13.320 what Mark Zuckerberg announced via a short video yesterday and 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.520 what his thinking was behind this one eighty. 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.040 I mean, to the thinking point. It is fairly rare 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:22.960 that Mark Zuckerberg takes us through his thinking on something. 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:25.679 There are a lot of high profile people who work 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.639 at metas so when it comes to Instagram, Adamisari is 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:30.600 the head of Instagram and he's announced a lot of 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.720 the changes. But this came clearly from the top, and 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:37.000 it makes sense. It's a huge change. So essentially, the 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.840 biggest change among them is that those fact checkers that 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:41.640 I was just talking about, the ones who are reviewing 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:42.520 the content. 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.200 The ninety organization, Yes, they're no. 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:47.720 Longer gone done goodbye. And to add some color as 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:52.160 to why overnight we have seen the exit of all 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:56.840 fact checking on these platforms, Zuckerberg described the system as complex, 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.360 and he said that it was creating too many mistakes. Said, 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.880 even if they accidentally censor just one percent of posts, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.720 that is millions of people. Now I'm going to applay 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:08.800 you a short clip that explains a bit more about 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:10.640 the thinking behind the decision. 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.880 There's been widespread debate about potential harms from online content. 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.880 Governments and legacy media have pushed to censor more and more. 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.039 So we built a lot of complex systems to moderate content. 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.000 But the problem with complex systems is they make mistakes. 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.200 The fact checkers have just been too politically biased and 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.320 have destroyed more trust than they've created, especially in the US. 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:33.599 So over the next couple of months, we're going to 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.560 phase in a more comprehensive community notes system. 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.839 So let's play this out right. We're talking about a 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:44.279 post being reported as missiles disinformation, this third party fact 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.280 checking service looking at it and deciding it was in fact, 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.680 it's then limiting the reach of that And in Mark 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.960 Zackberg's mind, that is then limiting the reach of that post, 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.279 where if the fact checker's got that wrong, it actually 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:57.680 shouldn't have been limited in the first place. And I 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.719 guess it's why that concern is around sense, right. 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.000 Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, censorship is really at the 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:07.840 heart of the reasoning behind removing these fact checkers. And 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.480 I guess the way that Mark Zuckerberg sees it is 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.479 that the people, the fact checkers, who are deciding whether 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.440 or not something is miss or disinformation, he is claiming 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:21.360 that they are becoming the arbiters of truth, and that 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:23.960 Meta itself never wanted to be the arbiter of truth. 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.279 It wanted to be a social media platform, or Facebook 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.400 at least wanted to be a social media platform where 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:33.640 lots of different ideas and social connections could be fostered. 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.880 And what he's saying is that it has now gone 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.200 too far and it's now impeding on freedom of speech 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.080 and the principles that underpin that. And to that end, 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:45.200 Meta has also said it's getting rid of a number 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:49.279 of restrictions on topics, so things like immigration, gender identity, 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:54.120 and gender that have been the subject of frequent political discourse. 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:57.040 A statement from Meta said, it's not right that things 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:58.800 can be said on TV or on the floor of 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:00.279 Congress but not on Beta. 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.040 So essentially, Zara, does that mean that people can now 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.120 post anything they want on metal platforms. 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:09.159 It's certainly going to be easier to post what you 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:11.719 like and what you think, but it's not going to 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.360 be a free for all. Instead, the onus is going 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.679 to shift from fact checkers to the users themselves. Now, 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.839 this idea is modeled on the way that X so 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:24.680 Twitter that's owned by Elon Musk, the way that that 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:28.479 platform has treated miss and disinformation, and that's been through 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:32.679 the introduction of something called community notes. Essentially community notes. 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.080 If you've been on x recently, it's that little thing 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:37.480 that comes up at the end of a tweet and 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:41.240 it says community note so and so xyz is wrong. 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.839 And the way that this is done is that X 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:50.160 users basically fact check each other. Essentially, if two users 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:52.719 so me and you, okay, if me and you, let's 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.560 use you you and I, so you and I have 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.159 previously disagreed on whether the sky is blue. 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:00.760 I say it's green, you say it's blue. 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:05.119 Yeah, And then there's another fact that's posted about whether 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:09.080 or not Anthony Albanezi is the Prime Minister, and you 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.080 and I agree on that. That is then going to 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.480 be published as a community note because previously we've disagreed, 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.360 Now we agree on the same thing. And that is 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:20.840 the way at least that X. I know it's super confusing, 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:22.960 but that's the way that X has said that. It's 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:27.640 like prioritizing diverse voices and diverse perspectives. Is that if 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.040 you and I agree on every single thing and we 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.360 have the same political positions and therefore critique something else 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.880 as miss or disinformation, you're ending up in the same situation. 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:39.320 So that's the way X does it. I hope that 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.720 that makes sense. I'm not on the back end of X, 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:45.360 so look, I can't actually tell you the technology that 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.960 goes behind it, but essentially what they're trying to say 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.720 is that that same idea is going to be brought 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:52.000 in on meta platforms. 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:56.320 Okay, so basically via a lot of complex algorithms. It's 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.440 on users. Now, you're not on these third part the 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:04.280 TLDs checking services to identify whether something on meta platforms 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:06.320 is factually wrong correct. 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.680 And that's the way it's been done on X. And 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.400 you know X has changed, It's completely transformed from the 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.000 app at once was, so I think that we can 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:19.680 expect to see the meta platforms also change quite significantly 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:20.760 under this announcement. 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.520 And Zara, we can't ignore the wider context that's happening 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.680 around us, which is the election of Donald Trump for 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:28.880 a second term. He's being sworn in on the twentieth. 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.720 Meta isn't the only company in the world readying itself 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.480 for a Trump presidency. Can you talk to me about 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.000 how Donald Trump fits into all of this. 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:43.839 Yeah, Look, it's an absolutely fascinating one because Mark Zuckerberg 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:48.240 explicitly said in his video that he was going to 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.800 work with President Trump to push back on governments around 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.560 the world pushing to censor more So, there was a 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.520 very clear nod to the incoming president elect Donald Trump there, 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.480 and the fact that you know he is looking to 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:03.280 work with him and be on the same side when 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:08.040 it comes to censorship, I guess as Trump. But what's 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.680 interesting is that the two absolutely have not always seen 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:14.640 eida eye you know, Trump previously threatened to jals Zuckerberg 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.920 if he did anything quote illegal during the twenty twenty 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.800 four election, and at a press conference after the announcement, 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:25.800 Trump said that this threat was probably responsible for Meta's decision. 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:28.800 We can't test the validity of that. We are not inside, 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.840 you know, the Meta decision making rooms. But I do 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.960 think that it's important to, I guess, highlight some of 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.040 the interesting changes that have happened at Meta recently that, 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.760 as you say, do demonstrate the fact that it is 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.280 readying itself for a Trump presidency. So two things that 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.160 were of note. The first is that Dana White, who 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.760 was the creator of UFC, he was this week appointed 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:51.880 to Meta's board. 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.880 And he's very close to the Trump camp, right. 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.120 Yeah, yeah. He is a full Trump loyalist to the 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:00.520 extent that when Donald Trump won the presidency back in November, 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.200 he was on stage on the night of the election, 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:07.640 so very close to the president elect, and that means something. 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.240 He wrote this kind of explanation of being appointed to 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.400 the board and he said, I don't do boards, but 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:15.960 I want to do this board. So a really interesting 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:18.960 thing there. The second is that the head of Global Affairs, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.000 so global affairs is essentially the way that a company 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.360 connects and engages with government. That person at META was 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.959 replaced this week and the new head, his name is 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:33.440 George Kaplan, has close ties to Trump and is also 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.720 understood to have played a significant role in the announcement yesterday. 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.839 It's really interesting how Meta is getting ready for this 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.440 Trump presidency. They're not the only company that's doing so, 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.920 as I said, and these decisions are going to impact 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.160 millions of people, not just in America but all the 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.920 way around the world. What has the response been to 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:51.240 this announcement. 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.920 Well, I thought I'd focus on the response from the 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.960 fact checking groups. You know, I said that they were 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.920 in ninety Yeah, there were ninety organizations who were involved 0:10:59.920 --> 0:11:03.199 in fact checking who overnight must have lost huge contracts 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:07.600 and also, you know, believe truly in their role and 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:10.880 the value that they can bring. So one of the groups, 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.720 the Pointer Institute, said in a statement that facts are 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.400 not censorship. They said it's time to quit invoking inflammatory 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.480 and false language in describing the role of journalists and 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:24.480 fact checking, not mincing words there. FactCheck dot Org, which 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:26.960 has also been used by Meta, said that community notes 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:29.040 model will mean that you'll have to do more work 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.160 on your own when you see questionable posts. I think 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:34.320 that that's an interesting note to end on, which is, 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.280 you know, how much critical analysis, how much literacy are 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:41.240 we bringing to the online world and to our experience 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.760 on the online world, because the meta and the Twitter 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.800 of twenty fourteen is very different today, and you know, 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:50.840 here in Australia we're heading into an election campaign where 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.480 we know young voters are going to be met online 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.240 and especially on socials and meta platforms. So understanding how 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:00.199 this might affect us down the road is definitely to 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:00.760 keep an eye on. 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:02.840 Well, the onus is kind of now more on us 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.760 than that before. Yep, Zara, thank you. That's a very 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:09.360 interesting and slightly complex discussion on how fact checking works 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.880 and is evolving into the future. We'll be back again 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.000 with the headlines this afternoon, but until then, have a 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:19.880 fantastic day, which out to you later. My name is 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.360 Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkutin woman 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:27.720 from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.160 is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:33.720 pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.960 We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries, 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:38.280 both past and present.