Speaker 1: Get everybody. It's been a it's been school holidays, so
Speaker 1: I absolutely love school holidays, but it is kind of
Speaker 1: crazy because I'm trying to feel like I'm trying to
Speaker 1: live two lives at once because work doesn't necessarily stop.
Speaker 1: And we had a beautiful week away up in Queensland
Speaker 1: with the family, some wonderful time with Snares and the girls,
Speaker 1: and back into the swing of things this week, and
Speaker 1: got a really, really wonderful guest in the studio today
Speaker 1: who is someone that I've never had the pleasure of meeting.
Speaker 1: Can't wait to meet her, but her reputation is nothing
Speaker 1: short of stella, and she is an expert in a
Speaker 1: really interesting topic something we've never spoken about on this
Speaker 1: show and perhaps doesn't get spoken about anywhere near as
Speaker 1: enough in general, and that is OCD. That's something I
Speaker 1: definitely don't know that much about. Perhaps some of my
Speaker 1: perceptions are wrong, and I'm hoping to sort of shift
Speaker 1: those perceptions learn as much as I can. It's a
Speaker 1: wonderful Penny Moody. And then we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: training at night, as I'm getting lots of questions around
Speaker 1: training later at night now that it's getting lighter longer.
Speaker 1: That's all coming up in this episode of The Woodlife.
Speaker 1: So we're having the studio with us today the absolutely
Speaker 1: lovely Penny Moody, who has just written her first book.
Speaker 1: Penny is an OCD advocate, social work student, wonderful mum
Speaker 1: of three. She's previously worked as a communication especially since
Speaker 1: mental health not for profits and in the general health sector.
Speaker 1: She's created a website even called soocd dot com dot
Speaker 1: au to help people navigate the world of OCD and
Speaker 1: the book that I was referring to has been wonderfully received.
Speaker 1: Probably heard about it. It is called The Joy Thief,
Speaker 1: which is just a beautiful name. Penny, Welcome to the
Speaker 1: Woodlife and thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me,
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, it's really wonderful to have you.
Speaker 1: It's also Penny's birthdays. And that's embarrassed.
Speaker 2: A little text from from a little Birdie giving me
Speaker 2: the heads up.
Speaker 1: But I'm glad. I'm glad I was told because it
Speaker 1: would have been embarrassing if I'd found that out. No,
Speaker 1: I know, you wouldn't have been I probably would have
Speaker 1: found out. Now I feel rude. We just started to
Speaker 1: have a tiny little chat before coming on air, which
Speaker 1: is probably not good podcasting. That was about O c D.
Speaker 1: And I feel there's someone really really close to me
Speaker 1: in my life that has it, and I probably haven't
Speaker 1: been very patient. I haven't had a very good understanding
Speaker 1: of it. I still don't. But how how did you
Speaker 1: find out that you had O c D? And what's
Speaker 1: your story?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It's a really long journey for me.
Speaker 2: I looking back, I would have started to experience obsessions
Speaker 2: and develop compulsions when I was about six or seven,
Speaker 2: so really little, really young. I didn't know at the
Speaker 2: time what was going on, but.
Speaker 1: You have memories even from that age.
Speaker 2: Yes, I do have very strong memories. The first one
Speaker 2: being I was so worried that my mum and dad
Speaker 2: would get into a car accident, and that's a really
Speaker 2: normal fear for a young kid to have. But to
Speaker 2: alleviate the anxiety that that thought would bring up in me,
Speaker 2: I would start to develop these compulsions in these rituals,
Speaker 2: which in my mind would keep them safe. So that's
Speaker 2: actually kind of known as magical thinking OCD. So it's
Speaker 2: two things that have no logical connection. But every night
Speaker 2: before I went to bed, I would do these certain
Speaker 2: rituals and tap on wood a certain amount of times
Speaker 2: and say a combination of words in a certain way,
Speaker 2: and in my mind that would keep them safe. Was
Speaker 2: my responsibility to keep them safe, which sounds so illogical,
Speaker 2: It is so illogical, but that's just what started to happen.
Speaker 1: So already your description is starting to shift my perception
Speaker 1: of OCD, Like I think of I don't know, Jack
Speaker 1: Nicholson turning the lights which is ten times, or cleaning
Speaker 1: people that. Yeah, you know, I can't stop mopping the
Speaker 1: floor over then the floor is perfectly clean, you know,
Speaker 1: like that. It's so stereotypical. I know, but that's kind
Speaker 1: of where my head goes, and probably many others go.
Speaker 1: But there are so clearly already just unpeeling the onion
Speaker 1: a tiny bit, so many different forms of OCD. Is
Speaker 1: there a definition that you typically go by, just to
Speaker 1: go back before we go forward?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean OCD generally it's like the presence of obsessions,
Speaker 2: which can be you know, unwanted thoughts or feelings or
Speaker 2: urges or sensations which provoke a certain amount of anxiety,
Speaker 2: and you then start developing compulsions, so they're repetitive behaviors
Speaker 2: which to alleviate the anxiety. So generally that's what OCD is.
Speaker 2: And the compulsions aren't always very overt, like it could
Speaker 2: be just ruminating about something over and over and over again,
Speaker 2: So it doesn't have to be really physical, you know,
Speaker 2: like the one that people go to often it's like
Speaker 2: hand washing. That's how I saw it depicted as a
Speaker 2: young kid. I also saw it depicted as you know
Speaker 2: Jack Nicholson in As Good as It Gets and what's
Speaker 2: his name? In match Stick Men? It was so Nicolay. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was always the same sort of thing, and it
Speaker 2: can play out like that, but it can also be
Speaker 2: totally different. And I think in those examples they never
Speaker 2: really showed the like the real distress that it costs.
Speaker 2: Like you always saw the behaviors, but you never saw
Speaker 2: the distress that the obsessions provoked in people.
Speaker 1: So you're sat at six or seven? Did it get worse? Right?
Speaker 1: So as the years went on, it got worse and
Speaker 1: worse and impacted you more and more. Was he getting
Speaker 1: older and probably more conscious of it and started one
Speaker 1: more curious about it? What was the gap from seven
Speaker 1: to actual diagnosis?
Speaker 2: Yeah? It was so it generally would flare up during
Speaker 2: times of upheaval, which is really common. So when I
Speaker 2: was about eight, we moved overseas for a couple of years,
Speaker 2: and then the obsessions started to change. So I started
Speaker 2: worrying that I had AIDS at eight years old. And
Speaker 2: my dad was working in that area for U and AIDS,
Speaker 2: so that's why it was something in my consciousness. But
Speaker 2: I started worrying that I had AIDS and that I
Speaker 2: might die of it, but also that I would maybe
Speaker 2: give it to other people, and that really dominated my
Speaker 2: thoughts for a couple of years. And to deal with
Speaker 2: those obsessions, I would do different things. I would do
Speaker 2: those sort of things like I would wash my hands
Speaker 2: a thousand times, which I again wouldn't stop you from
Speaker 2: getting AIDS. But the main thing I would do was
Speaker 2: go to my mum for reassurance and I'd ask her
Speaker 2: multiple times day if certain things I had done could
Speaker 2: lead to me getting AIDS. And this happened for years,
Speaker 2: and yeah, it was really tiring.
Speaker 1: And did she or did think anything of it? Or
Speaker 1: was it our kids, you know, like their little quirks
Speaker 1: that they have that makes them almost so endearing. Was
Speaker 1: it that attitude or was it.
Speaker 2: There wasn't much around OCD at the time, so it
Speaker 2: didn't they didn't think o CD. I think they thought, gosh,
Speaker 2: this child is quite anxious and is worried about a
Speaker 2: lot of different things. But the thing was I was
Speaker 2: it was so important to me from such a young
Speaker 2: age to present like a very competent front, like I
Speaker 2: was doing well at school, I had lots of friends,
Speaker 2: I was still functioning. But this was all happening kind
Speaker 2: of below the surface. And yeah, it was later on
Speaker 2: that they realized, okay, something we you know, she needs
Speaker 2: to get help. But during that time I was still
Speaker 2: functioning quite well. So I think they just thought I
Speaker 2: was quite overly anxious.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and I guess I'm asking one through the
Speaker 1: story of your history. And two, I guess with three
Speaker 1: little kids of my own, four girls, i'd love. And
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are many parents out there wanting to
Speaker 1: be able to identify cues and signs that perhaps there
Speaker 1: are things that they need to be looking out for
Speaker 1: that maybe they're thinking they see it as something else,
Speaker 1: or you know, they sweeping on the carpital, they just go,
Speaker 1: it's just how kids are.
Speaker 2: I do get asked a lot, you know, how do
Speaker 2: I know if my kid has OCD? And it's a
Speaker 2: really hard question because there are a lot of behaviors
Speaker 2: that kids can be doing which can overlap with different
Speaker 2: diagnoses as well, or can just be normal developmental behavior.
Speaker 2: But what I was told by a child's psych was
Speaker 2: it's kind of all about distress and disability. So if
Speaker 2: it's causing great distress and it's also kind of really
Speaker 2: impacting their functioning or your functioning as a family, that's
Speaker 2: when you start to note. But again that can be
Speaker 2: hard because a lot of the time they'll try to
Speaker 2: hide that, so they might still look like they're functioning,
Speaker 2: but they're actually having a lot of trouble. But if
Speaker 2: you think that it's starting to really cause a lot
Speaker 2: of distress these sort of thoughts or behaviors that they're doing,
Speaker 2: then it's certainly worth getting a second opinion.
Speaker 1: To even just talking to you for seven minutes. And
Speaker 1: I don't feel comfortable admitting this because I feel quite
Speaker 1: guilty about it, but I've been very dismissive I think
Speaker 1: of the severity of OCD to not to the point
Speaker 1: where I've taken the mickey out of friends, but to
Speaker 1: the fact that I have perhaps thought they've been making
Speaker 1: a manner out of them Aleho a little bit, or
Speaker 1: making it out to be more debilitating than I've ever
Speaker 1: really grasped. It can really be a debilitating disease, can it?
Speaker 2: It is? It really is debilitating, But you wouldn't be
Speaker 2: alone there, Sam, Like so many people have this kind
Speaker 2: of surface level idea of what it is, and you're right, like,
Speaker 2: not many people feel comfortable talking about it openly and
Speaker 2: honestly because it's there can be really taboo topics involved.
Speaker 2: You can feel a lot of shame around it, and
Speaker 2: sometimes you can start gaslighting yourself thinking, well, like, you know,
Speaker 2: I was never like an organized person, or you know,
Speaker 2: so I would I would worry if I told someone
Speaker 2: I had OCD. That'd be like, no, well you definitely
Speaker 2: don't have OCD, and then I'd start to question it.
Speaker 2: But what it is is so different to how it's
Speaker 2: perceived in popular culture or in general society, Like it
Speaker 2: is actually like living in your worst nightmare every day.
Speaker 2: That's how I describe it.
Speaker 1: So we've spoken very briefly about identifying it in your children,
Speaker 1: what about it identifying it out like for all our
Speaker 1: adult listeners out there, what should they be looking for.
Speaker 1: And then I guess, most importantly, if you are feeling
Speaker 1: that's the case, what's the best source of getting help.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the way I ended up getting a diagnosis
Speaker 2: was I pretty much self diagnosed. So after so long,
Speaker 2: I one day picked up a magazine I think it
Speaker 2: was The Good Weekend and it had someone's really honest
Speaker 2: story about OCD and it was anonymous because maybe because
Speaker 2: it was so painfully honest, and I recognized myself in
Speaker 2: it and I was like, Oh, that's me. I've got OCD.
Speaker 2: I never realized like it was such a huge moment
Speaker 2: for me, and it was like a huge weight taking
Speaker 2: off my shoulders. And I showed it to my dad
Speaker 2: straight away and I was like, this is me, this
Speaker 2: is what I've gone through. And it wasn't until a
Speaker 2: couple of years later that I actually went to find
Speaker 2: someone who had experience in dealing with OCD, and I
Speaker 2: knew that they did something called exposure and response prevention therapy,
Speaker 2: which has the most research behind it when it comes
Speaker 2: to trading OCD. So it's about facing your whatever fear
Speaker 2: it is head on, So trying to do something that
Speaker 2: might trigger that just stress and then not performing the
Speaker 2: compulsion because we know that every time we perform a compulsion,
Speaker 2: it fuels the obsession. So it's like this really awful
Speaker 2: kind of spiral, so.
Speaker 1: Fighting all of your urges. However you dealt with that
Speaker 1: in the past or ways.
Speaker 2: You just you sit with the anxiety and you don't
Speaker 2: perform the compulsion and you start to create new neural
Speaker 2: pathways in your brain. It's really hard. It's really hard.
Speaker 2: That does sound it is, and doing it with someone
Speaker 2: who has experience is really vital. And if you have
Speaker 2: kids with OCD, it's really important to be doing it
Speaker 2: as a family because obviously the therapist isn't going to
Speaker 2: be at home. You're going to be the one trying
Speaker 2: to stop them from performing their compulsions. And it might
Speaker 2: not be stopping them all straight away, but gently trying
Speaker 2: to stop those behaviors. Yeah, so that's what I's That's
Speaker 2: the thing that changed the game for me was doing ERP.
Speaker 1: And do you still do that to this day? Is
Speaker 1: that an ongoing practice? It is?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, no, no I thought it might be that you'd always be.
Speaker 1: It is getting better at it, you know, learning uncovering
Speaker 1: new techniques that.
Speaker 2: Work or yeah, it's something I still see a therapist weekly,
Speaker 2: and that's cost Not everyone can do that. It's bloody
Speaker 2: expensive and I'm very privileged to be in that position.
Speaker 2: But I don't do like EERP every day or even
Speaker 2: every week. It might just be like once a month,
Speaker 2: or it might be when I noticed that compulsions are
Speaker 2: starting to creep back into my daily life. So it's
Speaker 2: not something I do every day.
Speaker 1: And so how long have you been doing that for?
Speaker 2: Now? So I was diagnosed at thirty one, and well
Speaker 2: I'm thirty six now, so there go so five years. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you feel there's a huge number of people out
Speaker 1: there living with this that aren't diagnosed?
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, definitely. You know, the stats around it are
Speaker 2: like two percent of the population. I reckon it's way more.
Speaker 1: What are the most common I guess behaviors or traits
Speaker 1: that a scene with it? I mean, these stereotypes come
Speaker 1: from truths or are they just entertaining for us?
Speaker 2: A good question? I think they, I think they. I
Speaker 2: think the core of it it comes from truths, because
Speaker 2: you know, for example, contamination o CD is probably the
Speaker 2: one that people would think of C. Yeah, and that
Speaker 2: absolutely can be the case. So people with contamination o
Speaker 2: CD might be really worried that they'll be infected by
Speaker 2: something or they'll infect others. So often they'll they will
Speaker 2: wash their hands, but it won't just be them like
Speaker 2: really wanting to wash their hands, or you never want
Speaker 2: to do the compulsions. But you know, I met I
Speaker 2: met a woman who was so deep in contamination o
Speaker 2: CD that she started to shower with bleach like this
Speaker 2: was this is so this can be so debilitating and
Speaker 2: so dangerous as well, But that can be really common
Speaker 2: and really really distressing. There's something called emotional contamination, which
Speaker 2: is really interesting and again quite common, where you can
Speaker 2: start to associate like a bad feeling or something you know,
Speaker 2: something you don't want to happen. I guess you start
Speaker 2: to associate that with a person or a color or
Speaker 2: a number or something, and so you then start to
Speaker 2: avoid different things. So like an example I read was
Speaker 2: about a girl who started to associate eating anything red
Speaker 2: with the thought of blood and contracting some sort of disease,
Speaker 2: and so she'd started to avoid eating anything red, but
Speaker 2: then it got so bad that she started to avoid
Speaker 2: any clothes that were red. She wouldn't want to be
Speaker 2: around anyone who was wearing red and that just severely
Speaker 2: impacted every part of her life, and that can be
Speaker 2: really common. But I know it sounds like, it sounds
Speaker 2: crazy and it sounds really illogical, but the people who
Speaker 2: are engaging in these behaviors like do know that at
Speaker 2: their core, but they can't help it. And then there's
Speaker 2: things like there's harm OCD which can often rear up
Speaker 2: during the perinatal period for women, so you know, when
Speaker 2: you're pregnant or in the year after you have a kid,
Speaker 2: often men or women can be besieged by thoughts of
Speaker 2: harming their child. So the thoughts aren't unique to people
Speaker 2: with OCD. Anyone can get any sort of thoughts. But
Speaker 2: these thoughts will cause so much anxiety that some people
Speaker 2: will then just start to avoid their baby because they think,
Speaker 2: if I'm near my baby, what if I hurt them?
Speaker 2: Like I'm a danger to them? Really really awful stuff.
Speaker 2: But yeah, there are so many different subtypes really yeah,
Speaker 2: but at the heart of it all is this real
Speaker 2: fear of uncertainty. That's kind of what binds everyone together
Speaker 2: who has OCD. It's this fear of uncertainty and trying
Speaker 2: to do things that will make you think that you
Speaker 2: can achieve that that certainty when you can't, Like, no
Speaker 2: one can get certainty around anything. That's what I've learned.
Speaker 1: If any of our listeners are hearing this, and it's
Speaker 1: not them, it's someone that they do love, if someone
Speaker 1: has been diagnosed, or if these are behaviors in someone
Speaker 1: that you care about that you're recognizing, what's the what's
Speaker 1: the best support mechanism that you can provide for those
Speaker 1: people that you care about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. I think firstly, the most
Speaker 2: important thing is to sounds kind of cliche, but not
Speaker 2: to try not to judge them and their behaviors. Like
Speaker 2: I said, people with OCD don't want to be engaging
Speaker 2: in these behaviors because they cause a lot of distress.
Speaker 2: But there's something telling them that they can't stop. So,
Speaker 2: you know, saying something like why can't you just stop
Speaker 2: worrying about that? Or why can't you just stop doing that?
Speaker 2: It just won't help. No matter how many times you
Speaker 2: say it, it will not help.
Speaker 1: It probably make things worse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it might, just that sense of judgment.
Speaker 1: Can I ask a really personal question and please don't
Speaker 1: feel like you have to answer it? How much have
Speaker 1: you I hate using that improved, but how much have
Speaker 1: you changed in the five years since you've been doing
Speaker 1: this therapy? Like if you had to as a percentage,
Speaker 1: is that a hard question.
Speaker 2: To answer, like ninety five percent. So it's improved so
Speaker 2: much and treatment, you know, it's so the kind of
Speaker 2: research around ERP, so using a combination of the explosion
Speaker 2: response prevention therapy and medication is like there's so much
Speaker 2: to suggest that it's really really successful for a lot
Speaker 2: of people. There's so much hope for people.
Speaker 1: And that's that's really important because there might people are
Speaker 1: listening going it is it's right. I can't carol this,
Speaker 1: you know, and I've been dealing with it for decades potentially,
Speaker 1: So to hear a story like yours where you've actually
Speaker 1: I mean, that's really powerful. I'm really glad you said that.
Speaker 1: Is there a specific medical professional that you should go
Speaker 1: and see for that diagnosis before the therapy or both
Speaker 1: the diagnosis and the therapy if there are people that want, yeah,
Speaker 1: sort of in that limbo period of not knowing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd suggest to people to try to see a
Speaker 2: GP first if you can, because then you can get
Speaker 2: a mental treatment plan, right, and from there a GP
Speaker 2: won't diagnose you, but from there you could either see
Speaker 2: this is easier said than done. At the moment, a
Speaker 2: psychiatrist or a psychologist who I guess will be able
Speaker 2: to diagnose.
Speaker 1: You're suggesting because they're all fully booked.
Speaker 2: They're all just fully booked. It's so, it's done. It's
Speaker 2: really it's really distressing hearing people's stories about how they're
Speaker 2: on so many weight lists or they can't even get
Speaker 2: on a wait list. But hopefully eventually people can see
Speaker 2: someone who has experience in treating it, and then and
Speaker 2: then they might. Yeah, the psychologist will obviously look at
Speaker 2: the different therapies, ERP being the most having the most
Speaker 2: research behind it, and a psychiatrist or a GP might
Speaker 2: put you on medication if they feel like that's needed.
Speaker 1: How long has SOOICD dot com dot au the website
Speaker 1: been around and what do people get there? And then
Speaker 1: why the book because I'd love to know about that too. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I started SOOCD with a friend of mine, Rosie,
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, and it was at the
Speaker 2: start of the pandemic and she had recently been diagnosed
Speaker 2: with OCD and knew that I had OCD and we
Speaker 2: started talking about it in the website. What we what
Speaker 2: we spent a lot of time on was trying to
Speaker 2: find specialists in different in various states in Australia who
Speaker 2: have experienced treating OCD and we list them and then
Speaker 2: we also list other websites that do the same thing.
Speaker 2: So it's actually can be a little bit of a
Speaker 2: shortcut for people like to find the right helpantas there's more,
Speaker 2: because there's just more. There is more out there now,
Speaker 2: so it's definitely really hopeful. But that's why we did
Speaker 2: the website and.
Speaker 1: Tell us about the book because it's been out for
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks now, it's available in all good bookstores.
Speaker 1: I've seen it floating around social media and people raving
Speaker 1: about it. Why did you write it? What's the response
Speaker 1: been and what can people expect?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wrote it because I think I needed a
Speaker 2: resource like that. When I was much younger, I was
Speaker 2: approached by an editor who had this idea because I
Speaker 2: think she'd read a couple of articles that I'd written, and,
Speaker 2: like I was telling you before, I was three months
Speaker 2: pregnant when it all started, and I was a bit
Speaker 2: daunted about how the hell, I would get a book
Speaker 2: done when I was pregnant with my third child, but
Speaker 2: I just the spit of time. Oh my god, it's
Speaker 2: all a bit of a blur. But I thought, I
Speaker 2: can't not do this. This is such a great opportunity.
Speaker 2: I've always loved writing. It was like a dream of
Speaker 2: mine to write a book, So to put that together
Speaker 2: with talking about OCD just made so much sense. So
Speaker 2: I decided to kind of weave my personal experiences through
Speaker 2: the book, also chat to experts from around the world
Speaker 2: to try to get a clearer picture about what it
Speaker 2: is and how it can present and how you can
Speaker 2: treat it. And then I also used other people's stories,
Speaker 2: obviously with their permission, to sort of paint a more
Speaker 2: nuanced version of what it can look like, because, like
Speaker 2: we've talked about, it can present in so many different ways.
Speaker 1: How was the process of writing it for you from
Speaker 1: your own OCD experience? Was it helpful? Was it cathartic
Speaker 1: in some kind of way? Was it did it shed
Speaker 1: light into different areas or show different perspectives that perhaps
Speaker 1: you hadn't thought of before.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was everything. It was. It was cathartic. Sometimes
Speaker 2: it was triggering, yeah.
Speaker 1: I should have said that, else my head it would
Speaker 1: be too close to home sometimes totally.
Speaker 2: And I know there'll be people out there who have
Speaker 2: OCD who won't who feel like they won't want to
Speaker 2: read it because they're worried they'll be triggered. And I
Speaker 2: totally totally understand that. But what I hope is that
Speaker 2: there's more kind of helpful healing techniques in there that
Speaker 2: will be more helpful in the long run for people
Speaker 2: even if they are a bit triggered by anything in there.
Speaker 1: So there's actually some really practical advice in there rather
Speaker 1: than just experiential. Yeah, this is my story.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I wanted it to be more than any
Speaker 2: kind of memoir because I wanted it to be a
Speaker 2: very practical how to guide for people with OCD or
Speaker 2: loved ones and people with OCD.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome. Is there evidence to suggest that exercise
Speaker 1: and nutrition and extra sleep help with these things?
Speaker 2: You know? I think looking after yourself is always going
Speaker 2: to help in terms of your sense of help anxiety,
Speaker 2: I guess, or help maybe reduce anxiety or get your
Speaker 2: endorphins pumping. What's quite interesting, which I do talk about
Speaker 2: in the book, is how important self compassion is because
Speaker 2: a lot of people with OCD will be thinking the
Speaker 2: very worst thoughts about themselves over and over and over again,
Speaker 2: and that takes its toll. But there is a lot
Speaker 2: of research to suggest that self compassion can absolutely help
Speaker 2: with the treatment of OCD.
Speaker 1: But that that answer, actually, I think makes a lot
Speaker 1: of sense. You know, sometimes it's just not there, you
Speaker 1: don't have to Yeah, yeah, it's more than there already.
Speaker 1: The joint.
Speaker 2: I think with any mental illness, it's there's so much
Speaker 2: power in looking after yourself mentally and physically. And you know,
Speaker 2: whenever I was in a bad place with OCD, I
Speaker 2: would stop all that, so I wouldn't So running is
Speaker 2: what I do to try to feel mentally healthy. One
Speaker 2: of the things I do. When I was in a
Speaker 2: really bad OCD hole, I would stop running. I wouldn't
Speaker 2: think really about what I was eating. That would all stop.
Speaker 2: What I realize now is that when I'm really deep
Speaker 2: in it, that's like when I need to go for run,
Speaker 2: that's when I need to start thinking more about what
Speaker 2: I'm eating. So I think it absolutely plays a past. Yeah,
Speaker 2: just like it would for any other mental illness.
Speaker 1: I think, well, this is I feel like we've scratched
Speaker 1: the surface, and we've probably scratched the surface enough for
Speaker 1: our first encounter. But I've loved talking to you. I've
Speaker 1: gone from a one out of ten to a seven
Speaker 1: out of ten knowledge. I think I'm ACD and I'm
Speaker 1: going to read the book to get up to a ten.
Speaker 1: You've been an absolute pleasure to have here on the
Speaker 1: wood Life. Thank you so much. Happy birthday again. And
Speaker 1: for anyone that's listening, the name of that book again
Speaker 1: is The Joy Thief. It's out now and it's by
Speaker 1: the wonderful Penny METI.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Sam, thanks for.
Speaker 1: Coming in there you go. Penny has just left the studio,
Speaker 1: and a Penny really shined a light to me on
Speaker 1: the severity of OCD. I was really actually feeling a
Speaker 1: bit guilty about some of my thoughts around it and
Speaker 1: how I thought I understood something I really didn't understand it. Anyway.
Speaker 1: I wonder if you're listening thinking similar things, or you're
Speaker 1: thinking Sam's just a jerk and needs to be more educated.
Speaker 1: But I'm definitely better off for that conversation. And as
Speaker 1: I said, Penning an absolute delight and would love to
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts on it, and yeah, if it is
Speaker 1: something that's really close to your personal circumstances, make sure
Speaker 1: you do yourself a favor and get out and grab
Speaker 1: that amazing book. That I meant it sincerely, I've had
Speaker 1: three or four people say to me that it is
Speaker 1: an absolutely brilliant book, So make sure you go and
Speaker 1: check it out. We're going to go something that is
Speaker 1: a bit more in my lane. Next, we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about exercise, and specifically we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: working out at night.
Speaker 2: Now that the sun is staying out later and later,
Speaker 2: is it okay to exercise later into the evening? All
Speaker 2: this mess up most sleep or circadian rhythms.
Speaker 1: Jess, what a great question. You would have heard me
Speaker 1: say on the show before that I'm a big fan
Speaker 1: of moving in the morning. Now I am, But that's
Speaker 1: not to say it's better from a circadian rhythm or
Speaker 1: a physiological perspective to working out at night. The main
Speaker 1: reason I say move in the morning is we tend
Speaker 1: to get the benefits of the increased energy in the
Speaker 1: increased mood then for the next ten, twelve, four d
Speaker 1: eight hours because we've moved in the morning and from
Speaker 1: a practical perspective, we're just more consistent with our workouts
Speaker 1: if we work out in the morning because it's already
Speaker 1: happened before. Distractions and obstacles and meetings and tiredness and
Speaker 1: dinner parties can kind of naturally as they do, get
Speaker 1: in the way and interrupt that consistency. The only two
Speaker 1: considerations that are real are if you're doing something super
Speaker 1: high intense really late before you go to bed, or
Speaker 1: you probably are going to need that wine down time,
Speaker 1: and it could be then eating into your sleep time
Speaker 1: if you're doing it. I mean, if you're doing a
Speaker 1: workout maybe in a home gym at ten pm or
Speaker 1: eleven pm or something really late, I think that will
Speaker 1: start to impact the quality of your sleep in the
Speaker 1: time that you can get to sleep. And a lot
Speaker 1: of people struggle to train and then sleep and then
Speaker 1: not eat in between. And therefore, if you're training really late,
Speaker 1: you can eat really late. And if you're eating really late,
Speaker 1: that can impact how much weight you keep on. You know,
Speaker 1: you don't tend to burn it off as well. If
Speaker 1: you're eating and then half an hour later going to sleep,
Speaker 1: you tend to be digesting your food. If you're then
Speaker 1: trying to sleep and you're still digesting food, so there's
Speaker 1: a bit of a domino effect. I guess now, if
Speaker 1: you go to bed at two and you get up
Speaker 1: at ten and you're still getting your eight hours sleep,
Speaker 1: that's probably going to be minimal. But for most of
Speaker 1: us who are getting up at seven or eight, if
Speaker 1: you're training super late at night, then everything else is
Speaker 1: going to get a bit squeezed from a food and
Speaker 1: a sleep perspective, and that really is your only consideration.
Speaker 1: But if you're talking about am I right to go
Speaker 1: for a little twilight run now that daylight savings is
Speaker 1: kicked in and it's getting lighter later at six pm
Speaker 1: because I just don't like getting up in the morning,
Speaker 1: or I've got a really busy morning schedule, and you
Speaker 1: do that consistently, then absolutely yes, I so go for it.
Speaker 1: What a great episode it was today, And I'm guessing
Speaker 1: there's going to be questions. There's going to be questions
Speaker 1: maybe about the training at nights, or probably more likely
Speaker 1: around OCD and things associated with OCD. Would love to
Speaker 1: hear your own personal experiences. We'd love to hear questions
Speaker 1: statements about it. There's a link in the show notes,
Speaker 1: don't hesitate to reach out. We love hearing from you
Speaker 1: until next week. That's another episode of the Good Life.
Speaker 1: See you then,