WEBVTT - Calorie ‘Burn Off’ Estimates On Food: Helpful Or Harmful? 🍔🏃‍♀️ 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:03.480 The Flex and Rooms Daily podcast, brought to you by 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:07.120 Cata Now. 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:09.400 A few weeks ago, we spoke about this thing that 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.280 I saw, which was basically that there is research that's 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:18.000 happened in the UK that shows that putting calories on 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.960 certain foods, like foods that are considered fast food or 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.440 treats and snacks like that, there's this research that suggested 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:28.639 that maybe we should put on how much exercise you 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.040 need to do to burn off the calories. We were 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:33.879 discussing this on the show, and I, personally Frooms here, 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:36.080 thought it was a really bad idea, And I want 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:37.760 to do a trigger warning with this one. We're going 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.320 to be talking about disordered eating and that kind of stuff, 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:42.120 so you don't have to listen to this. But essentially 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:44.280 I was saying, I think it's a really bad idea 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:48.400 as someone who's experienced a disordered eating situation myself, knowing 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.800 how much exercise it takes to burn off calories personally 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.040 sends me into a spiral. As always on the Flex 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.240 and Froom show, I often have opinions that I haven't 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:58.080 fact checked. But I thought for this one, we're going 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:00.200 to bring in an expert, so I'm talking to a 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:04.240 woman called Sarah Barracat. She's a registered psychologist, a PhD 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:06.840 candidate and she works at Inside Out Institute at the 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:11.280 University of Sydney. I have her on the line. Hello Sarah, Hello, 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:13.039 Hi listener, how are you going. 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:14.759 I'm good, I'm good. 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:16.800 Good Now I send you an email. We've worked to 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:20.920 the before because I've done one of your programs for disclosure, 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.200 I had a binge eating disorder a few about this 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:26.720 time last year and I really needed help, and you've 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:30.399 created a program called BEAT Binge Eating e Therapy. Could 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:31.679 you quickly explain what that is? 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:37.000 Yeah? Sure, So BEAT is an online treatment program. So 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.840 it's ten sessions long, and it's based upon the type 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.080 of treatment that we know, I guess has the most 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.760 evidence for what works for people who are struggling with 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.360 binge eating and that's called cognitive behavior therapy. 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.800 You might have heard of it in other contexts before, 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.400 but yeah, So it's ten online sessions that. 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:55.720 You work through either by yourself or you can do 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:59.720 it alongside the support of another clinician. And it helped 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:04.480 to a target those factors that we think maintain bingingie 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:06.480 behaviors and dietary restriction. 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.359 Being one of those the main ones, I guess. 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.360 Yeah right. Something that I took out of that that 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:13.240 really helped me that I think about to this day 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.360 is making sure food isn't demonized or not putting food 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:20.120 into certain categories. So one of the big things that 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:24.000 I found was in my therapy, I didn't have to 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.280 eat dessert, but after dinner it was kind of encouraged 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:27.720 that you're going to you know, you can have dessert, 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:29.359 you can have treats, you can have this or that, 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.760 and not bringing certain labels on food. So when I 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:34.600 heard about this story, I kind of thought of you, 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:36.520 and I thought, I wonder what Sarah would think about this. 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:40.400 So just to clarify, this research was called the PACE 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.560 program Physical Activity Calorie Equivalent and it was urged to 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.600 be adopted in Australia. I don't know how far along 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.120 that is, like if it's actually going to be implemented 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.240 in Australia. But what were your initial thoughts on this. 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.960 Well, it's brain spread flags to me, and I guess 0:02:57.360 --> 0:02:59.400 that wouldn't be too surprised. I think ifn I work 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.120 in the field of disorders, but I think it, I mean, 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:03.160 you don't have to work in the field. 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.639 I think for this to be quite concerning. I think 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:09.480 it's clear, really obvious how this could cause some real 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:11.840 problems for people. So if you think about it from 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:13.120 kind of a clinical. 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:15.840 Perspective, we know that most eating disorders kind of have 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:19.600 this hallmark feature of a real fixation and preoccupation with 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.360 one point in shape. And if we're using a system 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.880 such as PACE, where we're intentionally bringing someone's attention to 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.240 the amount of exercise that you need to almost burn 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.840 off or counteract food with the real goal here of 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:35.160 not gaining weight, I think that can be really distressing 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.240 for people with an eating disorder anden triggering and I 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:40.720 guess triggering for them to then go and engage in 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:42.200 disordered eating behaviors. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.040 And we know one of the common. 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:49.160 Behaviors, ironically, is actually exercise. So I guess it's quite 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:54.480 concerning that we might be promoting or reinforcing eating disorder 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.160 behaviors through adopting such. 0:03:56.040 --> 0:04:00.840 A system totally. I spoke about it last week. We 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:05.960 were talking about the difference between personal responsibility versus reality. 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.880 I'm team drink all the Bevies, right, I don't know 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:11.800 how much sugar was in this. Sometimes i'd look in 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:13.120 I was like, how. 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.279 Many teaspoons just in this is small container? 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:20.080 And so for me it's the context of knowing, Oh, 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:22.520 like that's what they mean, Like this isn't even touched 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.400 in the sides, and if I eat this it means 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.839 I'm over consuming. That's fascinating. But then I don't have 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:33.839 a quote unquote unhealthy mental relationship with food. Is it 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.080 fair that a bunch of people who do are now 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:38.799 going to be exposed to something that could be detrimental 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:42.000 to their health? Not particularly, But then I feel like 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.400 it's like the micro issue versus the macro issue. 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.359 Would knowing that about the drinks change your desire to 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:49.840 drink them? 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:50.760 In some ways? 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:51.599 Yes? And no. 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.839 But I think what would be beneficial is that I 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.440 find it difficult to make healthier decisions because things have 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.960 been categorized as good and bad, right, And so it's like, oh, 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:03.920 you could never have a juice because that's really really 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.320 bad and always have water because it's good. I would 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.400 much rather be able to understand why it's bad and 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:11.040 why it's good, you know. So, like if I'm going 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.640 to choose beween having two bad drinks, which one is 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:18.800 less bad, I'd like the information to do so. 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.359 So we were talking about, you know, just because something is 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.760 going to trigger certain people, other people might find it 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:29.159 is actually helpful. What do you think about that. Should 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.599 we be leaning more towards making sure people feel safe 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:36.200 and comfortable or something like this helpful for the obesity 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.680 epidemic that's in inverted commas because I personally don't know 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.480 how much there actually is an obesity epidemic. 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:47.120 Yeah, well, I'll go to the first thing that you 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.640 said around kind of kind of treading that line between 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:53.440 helpful versus harmful. I think, you know, on one hand, 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:57.760 you could see how this program could provide really easily 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.920 unders of information. You know, food labels be quite tricky 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:02.040 to understand at times. 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:03.080 We're all really busy. 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:05.520 We want really quick and easy ways of you know, 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.200 understanding things. But I think it's a really narrow view. 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.320 We need to adopt more of a holistic approach when 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:15.920 we're thinking about food choices. You know, there are so 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.839 many factors that play here, not just how many calories 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:20.560 need to burn off after eating something. 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:22.920 And I guess if in the PATI. 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.880 Intervention they're trying to target or kind of to achieve 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:30.599 a balance between calories in and calories out almost I 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.359 think that's what they're trying to achieve. I think you 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.800 need to consider, you know, the broader system at play 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.160 here and the things that are influencing you know, more 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.880 of a sedentary lifestyle versus an active lifestyle. 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:45.680 And I think a blurb on a packet isn't going 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:46.040 to do it. 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:48.440 You're just going to make people feel guilty, in some 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.840 cases worthless. And I think people with eating disorders are 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.800 going to most definitely be triggered to engage in eating 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.000 disorder behaviors. So I think when you're thinking about behavior 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:02.080 change and thinking how you know behaviors are ingrained by 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:04.520 much larger systems at play, I think that's the way 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:06.720 that it needs to be approached. Really like, I think 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.080 it's almost impulting to give people this public health message 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.080 on a package without addressing any of the other factors 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:15.600 that are kind of involved in the situation. 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:20.920 Totally, totally. Yeah, it's a broader, broader issue. It's not 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:22.920 just yet you you can't be explained in a packet. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.480 And what do you think about? Because I'm really interested 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:28.560 in this topic obviously having been through it. I love 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:30.360 reading about it. I read about it a lot when 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:32.400 I'm in the groups of it, trying to kind of 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.120 like self self soothe and help myself and figure out 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.360 what was right and wrong. And I subscribed to a 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:39.720 few different newsletters on it. A lot of them are 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:45.360 American and they kind of disprove the idea that there 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.680 really is an obesity crisis. Like I think for a 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.120 long time, there's kind of like, very how would I 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:56.640 describe the headlines when it's really sensational headlines it's a 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.520 massive crisis. How much is that true? How much is 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.480 obese a problem in Australia, And if so, what are 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.000 your thoughts on how we can tackle it? 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.400 Yeah, yeah, well I know what you're talking about. And 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:10.840 you know it's often that you know, news article you'll 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:13.120 see with the person and a larger body sitting in 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:13.760 front of like. 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:15.119 A billion plates of food. 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:18.640 Like I think there's lots of you know, stigma around 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:20.800 it in a way it's brought up as being an 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:21.760 issue if you. 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:22.840 Look at the stats and look at the data. 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.720 I mean, I'm not an epidemiologist or an obesity researcher, 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:28.360 but if you look at the data, rates are increasing 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.240 in terms of obesity and even in less developed nations. 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.120 But again, the problem goes so much deeper than packaging. 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.040 I think that's the main thing that's a play here. 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:43.199 And I think adopting systems like this, although they can 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.559 seem quite attractive, I think what you're doing is you're 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.640 promoting more shame around eating certain foods. And that's not 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.199 the way to address any kind of problems with obesity, 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:54.480 you know. 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:56.480 I think this is actually a problem for the community 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:56.960 as a whole. 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.480 We shouldn't just be kind of stigmatizing people who are 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:02.400 in large botsodies. I think if we think about okay 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:04.480 as a society, what. 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:05.319 Do we want to achieve. 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.640 We want to achieve healthy relationships with food and healthy 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:09.800 relationships with our body. 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:11.839 And when I say healthy, I don't. 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.520 Mean, you know, that kind of clean eating approach, and 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.080 I mean kind of being flexible in your relationship with 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:19.760 food and balanced. 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.360 And you know, not having it be riddled. 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.080 By beliefs about making up for bad foods and guilt 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.720 and shame and all these kind of complicated algorithms. And 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.120 I don't think we should be promoting this cultural norm 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:34.360 in any way to try and I guess fix this issue. 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.079 I think, you know, people are getting quite desperate into 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:40.400 the messages that they're getting more and more twisted. But 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.400 I think if we also think about future generations and 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.440 having people kind of young kids looking at. 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.319 This packaging, you know, what we're just going to be teaching. 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:50.839 Them is that you get as much as your life 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:51.320 as long as you. 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:53.960 Burn it off. And that's not really what we need 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:58.200 to be educating people around. And I think it's you know, 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:00.719 if you think you're going to fix an issue or. 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.040 You're going to, I guess, have someone change their whole 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.040 relationship with food by reading a packet in the store, 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:09.120 that's not really reasonable or fair. 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:11.719 I think it's actually, in. 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:14.920 A way it's harmful because what you're trying, or what 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:16.600 you're saying in a way, is that it's as simple 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:21.480 as compensating or exercising off food to address you know. 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:22.600 What's what's going on. 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:24.280 And it kind of adds to a lot of the 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.000 stigma that we already know in terms of research around 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.240 you know, people in larger bodies are often judged as 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:34.040 being kind of lazy or disciplined or lacking control in 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:34.560 some way. 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.200 And I think by kind of adopting an approach that. 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:42.080 Just pace you're reinforcing this really narrow view around it 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.239 being a personal issue to address. 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:46.520 But if you step back and look at it. 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.440 I mean there are so many sociocultural things that need 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:52.120 to be addressed, like the cost of food, you know, 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:54.960 in today's day and age, especially with inflation and what's 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.800 going on. I mean, how expensive is it to eat 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:03.160 foods that are unprocessed as compared to processed foods or 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.760 kind of both fast foods. There's I think there's a 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.160 lot more going on here, and I think you know 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.040 that there are better ways to be addressing that. 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.079 Really, I totally agree. I want to have my KitKat 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:16.559 in peace. 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:19.600 Yeah, of course you too. That's the thing, and it's 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.880 not bad to have a kitcat. You know. Everything needs 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:23.640 to happen. 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.520 In context and in Yeah, I just think in isolation 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.000 and without context, I think this system could really do 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:31.079 quite a lot of damage. 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:32.800 I like that. Well, thank you for doing a little 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:34.400 bit of myth busting with us. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:35.920 We're welcome. 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.240 If you're listening to this and you want some more 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.240 support or you want to hear more, you can go 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.400 to the inside Out website, Is that right, Sarah? 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:45.640 Yeah, you can. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.400 There's also Butterfly and Butterfly Foundation if you want someone 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:50.640 to talk to their helpline. 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.000 Yeah, these are great websites. I feel like with a 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:54.280 lot of things that we talk about that are a 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.160 bit sensitive, you can say, oh, go to this, go 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.400 to this line, or do this. But definitely something that 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.360 I found really was like actually seeking support and knowing 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.719 that disordered eating and eating disorders aren't about a lack 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.480 of control. They aren't about you know, they shouldn't be 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.040 shame based. If you're actually having issues with food and 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.199 hyper focusing on it, you can get help that will 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:16.920 can definitely change your mind and make you feel a 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.719 bit more peaceful around food. And Inside Out Institute is 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.000 a really great way, a great place to start. And 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:27.520 also if you experiencing bingeing disorder, you should google bee 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:33.000 t Inside Out Institutency if you can do the program, Yeah, definitely. 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.600 It'll be released to the public in a few weeks time, 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:36.720 so definitely keep an eye. 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:37.439 Out on our website. 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:41.000 Amazing. Okay, thank you, Sarah. 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.120 Thank you. You've been listening to the Flex and Frooms 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:44.040 Daily podcast. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.040 For more, tune its Catera on DAB or stream it 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:48.199 on iHeartRadio.