Speaker 1: The Flex and Rooms Daily podcast, brought to you by
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Speaker 2: A few weeks ago, we spoke about this thing that
Speaker 2: I saw, which was basically that there is research that's
Speaker 2: happened in the UK that shows that putting calories on
Speaker 2: certain foods, like foods that are considered fast food or
Speaker 2: treats and snacks like that, there's this research that suggested
Speaker 2: that maybe we should put on how much exercise you
Speaker 2: need to do to burn off the calories. We were
Speaker 2: discussing this on the show, and I, personally Frooms here,
Speaker 2: thought it was a really bad idea, And I want
Speaker 2: to do a trigger warning with this one. We're going
Speaker 2: to be talking about disordered eating and that kind of stuff,
Speaker 2: so you don't have to listen to this. But essentially
Speaker 2: I was saying, I think it's a really bad idea
Speaker 2: as someone who's experienced a disordered eating situation myself, knowing
Speaker 2: how much exercise it takes to burn off calories personally
Speaker 2: sends me into a spiral. As always on the Flex
Speaker 2: and Froom show, I often have opinions that I haven't
Speaker 2: fact checked. But I thought for this one, we're going
Speaker 2: to bring in an expert, so I'm talking to a
Speaker 2: woman called Sarah Barracat. She's a registered psychologist, a PhD
Speaker 2: candidate and she works at Inside Out Institute at the
Speaker 2: University of Sydney. I have her on the line. Hello Sarah, Hello,
Speaker 2: Hi listener, how are you going.
Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 2: Good Now I send you an email. We've worked to
Speaker 2: the before because I've done one of your programs for disclosure,
Speaker 2: I had a binge eating disorder a few about this
Speaker 2: time last year and I really needed help, and you've
Speaker 2: created a program called BEAT Binge Eating e Therapy. Could
Speaker 2: you quickly explain what that is?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Sure, So BEAT is an online treatment program. So
Speaker 3: it's ten sessions long, and it's based upon the type
Speaker 3: of treatment that we know, I guess has the most
Speaker 3: evidence for what works for people who are struggling with
Speaker 3: binge eating and that's called cognitive behavior therapy.
Speaker 1: You might have heard of it in other contexts before,
Speaker 1: but yeah, So it's ten online sessions that.
Speaker 3: You work through either by yourself or you can do
Speaker 3: it alongside the support of another clinician. And it helped
Speaker 3: to a target those factors that we think maintain bingingie
Speaker 3: behaviors and dietary restriction.
Speaker 1: Being one of those the main ones, I guess.
Speaker 2: Yeah right. Something that I took out of that that
Speaker 2: really helped me that I think about to this day
Speaker 2: is making sure food isn't demonized or not putting food
Speaker 2: into certain categories. So one of the big things that
Speaker 2: I found was in my therapy, I didn't have to
Speaker 2: eat dessert, but after dinner it was kind of encouraged
Speaker 2: that you're going to you know, you can have dessert,
Speaker 2: you can have treats, you can have this or that,
Speaker 2: and not bringing certain labels on food. So when I
Speaker 2: heard about this story, I kind of thought of you,
Speaker 2: and I thought, I wonder what Sarah would think about this.
Speaker 2: So just to clarify, this research was called the PACE
Speaker 2: program Physical Activity Calorie Equivalent and it was urged to
Speaker 2: be adopted in Australia. I don't know how far along
Speaker 2: that is, like if it's actually going to be implemented
Speaker 2: in Australia. But what were your initial thoughts on this.
Speaker 3: Well, it's brain spread flags to me, and I guess
Speaker 3: that wouldn't be too surprised. I think ifn I work
Speaker 3: in the field of disorders, but I think it, I mean,
Speaker 3: you don't have to work in the field.
Speaker 1: I think for this to be quite concerning. I think
Speaker 1: it's clear, really obvious how this could cause some real
Speaker 1: problems for people. So if you think about it from
Speaker 1: kind of a clinical.
Speaker 3: Perspective, we know that most eating disorders kind of have
Speaker 3: this hallmark feature of a real fixation and preoccupation with
Speaker 3: one point in shape. And if we're using a system
Speaker 3: such as PACE, where we're intentionally bringing someone's attention to
Speaker 3: the amount of exercise that you need to almost burn
Speaker 3: off or counteract food with the real goal here of
Speaker 3: not gaining weight, I think that can be really distressing
Speaker 3: for people with an eating disorder anden triggering and I
Speaker 3: guess triggering for them to then go and engage in
Speaker 3: disordered eating behaviors.
Speaker 1: And we know one of the common.
Speaker 3: Behaviors, ironically, is actually exercise. So I guess it's quite
Speaker 3: concerning that we might be promoting or reinforcing eating disorder
Speaker 3: behaviors through adopting such.
Speaker 2: A system totally. I spoke about it last week. We
Speaker 2: were talking about the difference between personal responsibility versus reality.
Speaker 4: I'm team drink all the Bevies, right, I don't know
Speaker 4: how much sugar was in this. Sometimes i'd look in
Speaker 4: I was like, how.
Speaker 2: Many teaspoons just in this is small container?
Speaker 4: And so for me it's the context of knowing, Oh,
Speaker 4: like that's what they mean, Like this isn't even touched
Speaker 4: in the sides, and if I eat this it means
Speaker 4: I'm over consuming. That's fascinating. But then I don't have
Speaker 4: a quote unquote unhealthy mental relationship with food. Is it
Speaker 4: fair that a bunch of people who do are now
Speaker 4: going to be exposed to something that could be detrimental
Speaker 4: to their health? Not particularly, But then I feel like
Speaker 4: it's like the micro issue versus the macro issue.
Speaker 2: Would knowing that about the drinks change your desire to
Speaker 2: drink them?
Speaker 4: In some ways?
Speaker 3: Yes? And no.
Speaker 4: But I think what would be beneficial is that I
Speaker 4: find it difficult to make healthier decisions because things have
Speaker 4: been categorized as good and bad, right, And so it's like, oh,
Speaker 4: you could never have a juice because that's really really
Speaker 4: bad and always have water because it's good. I would
Speaker 4: much rather be able to understand why it's bad and
Speaker 4: why it's good, you know. So, like if I'm going
Speaker 4: to choose beween having two bad drinks, which one is
Speaker 4: less bad, I'd like the information to do so.
Speaker 2: So we were talking about, you know, just because something is
Speaker 2: going to trigger certain people, other people might find it
Speaker 2: is actually helpful. What do you think about that. Should
Speaker 2: we be leaning more towards making sure people feel safe
Speaker 2: and comfortable or something like this helpful for the obesity
Speaker 2: epidemic that's in inverted commas because I personally don't know
Speaker 2: how much there actually is an obesity epidemic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'll go to the first thing that you
Speaker 3: said around kind of kind of treading that line between
Speaker 3: helpful versus harmful. I think, you know, on one hand,
Speaker 3: you could see how this program could provide really easily
Speaker 3: unders of information. You know, food labels be quite tricky
Speaker 3: to understand at times.
Speaker 1: We're all really busy.
Speaker 3: We want really quick and easy ways of you know,
Speaker 3: understanding things. But I think it's a really narrow view.
Speaker 3: We need to adopt more of a holistic approach when
Speaker 3: we're thinking about food choices. You know, there are so
Speaker 3: many factors that play here, not just how many calories
Speaker 3: need to burn off after eating something.
Speaker 1: And I guess if in the PATI.
Speaker 3: Intervention they're trying to target or kind of to achieve
Speaker 3: a balance between calories in and calories out almost I
Speaker 3: think that's what they're trying to achieve. I think you
Speaker 3: need to consider, you know, the broader system at play
Speaker 3: here and the things that are influencing you know, more
Speaker 3: of a sedentary lifestyle versus an active lifestyle.
Speaker 1: And I think a blurb on a packet isn't going
Speaker 1: to do it.
Speaker 3: You're just going to make people feel guilty, in some
Speaker 3: cases worthless. And I think people with eating disorders are
Speaker 3: going to most definitely be triggered to engage in eating
Speaker 3: disorder behaviors. So I think when you're thinking about behavior
Speaker 3: change and thinking how you know behaviors are ingrained by
Speaker 3: much larger systems at play, I think that's the way
Speaker 3: that it needs to be approached. Really like, I think
Speaker 3: it's almost impulting to give people this public health message
Speaker 3: on a package without addressing any of the other factors
Speaker 3: that are kind of involved in the situation.
Speaker 2: Totally, totally. Yeah, it's a broader, broader issue. It's not
Speaker 2: just yet you you can't be explained in a packet.
Speaker 2: And what do you think about? Because I'm really interested
Speaker 2: in this topic obviously having been through it. I love
Speaker 2: reading about it. I read about it a lot when
Speaker 2: I'm in the groups of it, trying to kind of
Speaker 2: like self self soothe and help myself and figure out
Speaker 2: what was right and wrong. And I subscribed to a
Speaker 2: few different newsletters on it. A lot of them are
Speaker 2: American and they kind of disprove the idea that there
Speaker 2: really is an obesity crisis. Like I think for a
Speaker 2: long time, there's kind of like, very how would I
Speaker 2: describe the headlines when it's really sensational headlines it's a
Speaker 2: massive crisis. How much is that true? How much is
Speaker 2: obese a problem in Australia, And if so, what are
Speaker 2: your thoughts on how we can tackle it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well I know what you're talking about. And
Speaker 3: you know it's often that you know, news article you'll
Speaker 3: see with the person and a larger body sitting in
Speaker 3: front of like.
Speaker 1: A billion plates of food.
Speaker 3: Like I think there's lots of you know, stigma around
Speaker 3: it in a way it's brought up as being an
Speaker 3: issue if you.
Speaker 1: Look at the stats and look at the data.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not an epidemiologist or an obesity researcher,
Speaker 3: but if you look at the data, rates are increasing
Speaker 3: in terms of obesity and even in less developed nations.
Speaker 3: But again, the problem goes so much deeper than packaging.
Speaker 3: I think that's the main thing that's a play here.
Speaker 3: And I think adopting systems like this, although they can
Speaker 3: seem quite attractive, I think what you're doing is you're
Speaker 3: promoting more shame around eating certain foods. And that's not
Speaker 3: the way to address any kind of problems with obesity,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: I think this is actually a problem for the community
Speaker 1: as a whole.
Speaker 3: We shouldn't just be kind of stigmatizing people who are
Speaker 3: in large botsodies. I think if we think about okay
Speaker 3: as a society, what.
Speaker 1: Do we want to achieve.
Speaker 3: We want to achieve healthy relationships with food and healthy
Speaker 3: relationships with our body.
Speaker 1: And when I say healthy, I don't.
Speaker 3: Mean, you know, that kind of clean eating approach, and
Speaker 3: I mean kind of being flexible in your relationship with
Speaker 3: food and balanced.
Speaker 1: And you know, not having it be riddled.
Speaker 3: By beliefs about making up for bad foods and guilt
Speaker 3: and shame and all these kind of complicated algorithms. And
Speaker 3: I don't think we should be promoting this cultural norm
Speaker 3: in any way to try and I guess fix this issue.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, people are getting quite desperate into
Speaker 3: the messages that they're getting more and more twisted. But
Speaker 3: I think if we also think about future generations and
Speaker 3: having people kind of young kids looking at.
Speaker 1: This packaging, you know, what we're just going to be teaching.
Speaker 3: Them is that you get as much as your life
Speaker 3: as long as you.
Speaker 1: Burn it off. And that's not really what we need
Speaker 1: to be educating people around. And I think it's you know,
Speaker 1: if you think you're going to fix an issue or.
Speaker 3: You're going to, I guess, have someone change their whole
Speaker 3: relationship with food by reading a packet in the store,
Speaker 3: that's not really reasonable or fair.
Speaker 1: I think it's actually, in.
Speaker 3: A way it's harmful because what you're trying, or what
Speaker 3: you're saying in a way, is that it's as simple
Speaker 3: as compensating or exercising off food to address you know.
Speaker 1: What's what's going on.
Speaker 3: And it kind of adds to a lot of the
Speaker 3: stigma that we already know in terms of research around
Speaker 3: you know, people in larger bodies are often judged as
Speaker 3: being kind of lazy or disciplined or lacking control in
Speaker 3: some way.
Speaker 1: And I think by kind of adopting an approach that.
Speaker 3: Just pace you're reinforcing this really narrow view around it
Speaker 3: being a personal issue to address.
Speaker 1: But if you step back and look at it.
Speaker 3: I mean there are so many sociocultural things that need
Speaker 3: to be addressed, like the cost of food, you know,
Speaker 3: in today's day and age, especially with inflation and what's
Speaker 3: going on. I mean, how expensive is it to eat
Speaker 3: foods that are unprocessed as compared to processed foods or
Speaker 3: kind of both fast foods. There's I think there's a
Speaker 3: lot more going on here, and I think you know
Speaker 3: that there are better ways to be addressing that.
Speaker 2: Really, I totally agree. I want to have my KitKat
Speaker 2: in peace.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course you too. That's the thing, and it's
Speaker 1: not bad to have a kitcat. You know. Everything needs
Speaker 1: to happen.
Speaker 3: In context and in Yeah, I just think in isolation
Speaker 3: and without context, I think this system could really do
Speaker 3: quite a lot of damage.
Speaker 2: I like that. Well, thank you for doing a little
Speaker 2: bit of myth busting with us.
Speaker 1: We're welcome.
Speaker 2: If you're listening to this and you want some more
Speaker 2: support or you want to hear more, you can go
Speaker 2: to the inside Out website, Is that right, Sarah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can.
Speaker 3: There's also Butterfly and Butterfly Foundation if you want someone
Speaker 3: to talk to their helpline.
Speaker 2: Yeah, these are great websites. I feel like with a
Speaker 2: lot of things that we talk about that are a
Speaker 2: bit sensitive, you can say, oh, go to this, go
Speaker 2: to this line, or do this. But definitely something that
Speaker 2: I found really was like actually seeking support and knowing
Speaker 2: that disordered eating and eating disorders aren't about a lack
Speaker 2: of control. They aren't about you know, they shouldn't be
Speaker 2: shame based. If you're actually having issues with food and
Speaker 2: hyper focusing on it, you can get help that will
Speaker 2: can definitely change your mind and make you feel a
Speaker 2: bit more peaceful around food. And Inside Out Institute is
Speaker 2: a really great way, a great place to start. And
Speaker 2: also if you experiencing bingeing disorder, you should google bee
Speaker 2: t Inside Out Institutency if you can do the program, Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3: It'll be released to the public in a few weeks time,
Speaker 3: so definitely keep an eye.
Speaker 1: Out on our website.
Speaker 2: Amazing. Okay, thank you, Sarah.
Speaker 1: Thank you. You've been listening to the Flex and Frooms
Speaker 1: Daily podcast.
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