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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Caalcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: the eighth of March. I'm Zara and today I'm joined

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Speaker 2: in the studio by our fabulous journalist Sunny Adcock. Sunny,

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Speaker 2: Happy International Women's Day. Welcome to the party.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me, Zara. Happy International

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Speaker 3: Women's Day.

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Speaker 2: To you for today's episode. You're bringing us something very special.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us what we're going to hear about

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Speaker 2: in the deep Dive?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: So I spoke to Curly Saunders. She's a proud gun

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Speaker 3: Eye woman, award winning artist, writer and educator, and we

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Speaker 3: had this most wonderful conversation about matriarchy and woman who

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Speaker 3: in the environment and how all of those things come together.

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Speaker 4: Today, when I was preparing this week for a keynote

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Speaker 4: for International Women's Day. I was really holding onto that

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Speaker 4: idea of we can learn so much from the matriarchy

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Speaker 4: in the way that we could challenge the systems that exist.

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Speaker 4: We could come back into community and rather than feeling

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Speaker 4: like we have to fight it in isolation or separately,

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Speaker 4: we could fight this thing together.

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Speaker 2: But first the headlines.

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Speaker 3: The Reserve Bank raised the cash rate by zero point

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Speaker 3: two five percentage points to three point six percent yesterday,

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Speaker 3: in the tenth consecutive rise since May last year. RBA

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Speaker 3: governor for the blow says there are signs inflation has

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Speaker 3: peaked and we'll slow in the next few months, but

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Speaker 3: said further rate rises would likely be needed to ensure

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Speaker 3: that happens.

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Speaker 2: A preliminary report into the fatal collision of two helicopters

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Speaker 2: on the Gold Coast earlier this year has said that

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Speaker 2: one of the pilots did not hear a call from

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Speaker 2: the other hell that it was taking off. The Australian

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Speaker 2: Transport Safety Bureau's report didn't suggest that this meant the

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Speaker 2: call wasn't made, and will remain the topic of future analysis.

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Speaker 3: The Federal Court has ruled that Sally Rugg, the Chief

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Speaker 3: of Staff for independent MP doctor Manique Ryan cannot continue

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Speaker 3: working for Ryan while their employment dispute plays out. In

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Speaker 3: a judgment published on Tuesday, Federal Court Justice Deborah Mortimer

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Speaker 3: said she didn't think the situation would be tolerable, let

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Speaker 3: alone productive or workable for either Rug or Ryan.

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Speaker 2: And the good news Australian farmers a forecast to enjoy

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Speaker 2: another record season, with the gross value of agricultural production

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Speaker 2: expected to reach ninety billion dollars this financial year. The

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Speaker 2: figure will surpass the record set last financial year and

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Speaker 2: comes after high prices and the third consecutive len in

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Speaker 2: your weather event.

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Speaker 3: Hi Curly, thank you so much for chatting with us today.

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Speaker 5: Ah, good morning.

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Speaker 4: I'm down here on Thateral Country and it's such a

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Speaker 4: joy to be beaming in online with you this morning.

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Speaker 3: One of the themes that comes up a lot in

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Speaker 3: your work is the idea of the matriarch. What does

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Speaker 3: a strong matriarchy look like to you?

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Speaker 4: I think it's you know, I see the symbol this

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Speaker 4: circle with the circle inside so concentric circles, which is

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Speaker 4: a symbol that we see in carvings and in pictures

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Speaker 4: all over the place, and it represents the womb, the

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Speaker 4: mother and the child, things internal and external, and the

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Speaker 4: relationality between all of those things. And you know, the

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Speaker 4: child comes from the mother, becomes the mother, becomes the mother.

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Speaker 6: To another child. There is this cycle, and the grandmother

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Speaker 6: as well've been there.

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Speaker 4: And so when I think of the matriarchy, I think

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Speaker 4: of that these ripples and concentric circles of influence and

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Speaker 4: holding this nurturing and carrying forward of the wonderful things

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Speaker 4: which have come before us, while also carving out space

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Speaker 4: for you know, our mob who will come after us.

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Speaker 4: And the matriarchs who I know, do that tenderly and

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Speaker 4: with care and compassion, but they're also totally ferocious. You know,

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Speaker 4: there's this strength within them which isn't afraid to hold

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Speaker 4: people to account and to also bring people back into

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Speaker 4: the circle repeatedly, come back into this, come back into this,

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Speaker 4: be a part of this. So yeah, when I think

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Speaker 4: of matriarch and that powerful, strong black MATRIARX, I think

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Speaker 4: of people who are doing.

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Speaker 3: That so special, And I love this idea that you

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Speaker 3: sort of mentioned of it being really about this tenderness,

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Speaker 3: which I think is a really key word, but also

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Speaker 3: this fierceness, this ferocity and simultaneously holding space for both

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Speaker 3: in equal measure. Can you speak a little bit more

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Speaker 3: about that relationship and the value it brings to a

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Speaker 3: community of women.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm giggling because I'm thinking of what that looks

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Speaker 4: like in action. And I think, Auntie, who really love you,

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Speaker 4: you'll sit you down and they'll tell you.

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Speaker 6: When you've done something that they're not happy with.

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Speaker 5: So you laugh and you know it too, right, Yes, Oh,

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Speaker 5: you know you've got to you've got to listen more

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Speaker 5: than you speak, or you've got to take a little

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Speaker 5: while think.

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Speaker 4: About that, or you know it's time for you to

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Speaker 4: stand up and talk now, bub, or it's time for

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Speaker 4: you to.

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Speaker 6: Leave now, bub.

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Speaker 4: So I think it's those kinds of ferocities, but it's

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Speaker 4: also challenging the system that doesn't serve us.

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Speaker 5: And we see this.

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Speaker 4: Repeatedly with our women, particularly at the front, saying, you know,

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Speaker 4: we disagree that we should have rights, We should have

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Speaker 4: equal rights, we should have treaty, Our kids shouldn't be

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Speaker 4: taken away from us, we should have opportunity. This system

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Speaker 4: needs to be dismantled and it needs to be safe

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Speaker 4: for us to be able to exist and operate in

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Speaker 4: the world. And I think it's ferocity that gets us

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Speaker 4: to be able to advocate for those things, but it's

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Speaker 4: also with tenderness and love, because it's saying I love

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Speaker 4: my family and my community so wholeheartedly that I'm advocating

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Speaker 4: for these things, and I believe so hopefully in a future.

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Speaker 6: Where that is a reality, that I will fight for it.

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Speaker 3: A woman that comes up in your work quite a

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Speaker 3: lot is mother nature in your eyes? What is the

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Speaker 3: case connection between women and the climate?

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Speaker 5: Ah, I mean everything?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So mother is who were born from it, So

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Speaker 4: we return to when we pass for as long as

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Speaker 4: we live here with a right to honor and protect her.

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Speaker 4: When we dance, you know, the boys down the coast,

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Speaker 4: we have our headbands on and we before we dance,

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Speaker 4: we always press that headband to the ground, say through

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Speaker 4: the mother, you know, put it on and then where

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Speaker 4: everything is in action with her.

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Speaker 5: And it's something I think of regularly that everything we.

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Speaker 4: Do has to care for country, has to be in

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Speaker 4: reciprocity live country.

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Speaker 5: So it shapes all.

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Speaker 4: Of my daily actions and the way I move, And

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Speaker 4: when I forget myself, I go back to her. You know,

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Speaker 4: lately I've been works being so manic that I'm like,

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Speaker 4: it's time to tap out now and go and spend

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Speaker 4: half an hour or an hour. I got to go

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Speaker 4: to the beach. Or I call my brother boy day,

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Speaker 4: I'm like, Bro, we gotta go bushwalk. He's like, yep,

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Speaker 4: and we'll just start on the path and then head

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Speaker 4: out into the Nevnever or go for a surf. And yeah,

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Speaker 4: I keep coming back to country, and through country, I

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Speaker 4: find myself and I'm related in country.

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Speaker 5: You know. I find all of my.

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Speaker 6: Family and connection and kin through that land too.

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Speaker 5: When I tell you where I'm from.

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Speaker 4: You know Ghanna Yu and Burapai that are all Gananghara.

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Speaker 4: It's because those are the landscapes that I know and

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Speaker 4: that know me. But also because that's where I am

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Speaker 4: known by my family and community, and where I equally

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Speaker 4: know my family and community. We're able to relate to

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Speaker 4: each other through the land, and yeah, I think that's

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Speaker 4: a really integral part of our identity. And if we

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Speaker 4: don't care for country, then we're equally not caring for

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Speaker 4: a future for us, but also.

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Speaker 6: The people who come after us.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, that is intimately related with climate and with

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Speaker 4: care for the earth.

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Speaker 3: I've even noticed in some of your work some sort

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Speaker 3: of parallels drawn between I guess, not only the interpersonal

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Speaker 3: relationship that we can have with country, but also to

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Speaker 3: the way that both women and the climate are perceived

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Speaker 3: more broadly. Can you speak on that a bit?

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Speaker 5: Oh, there's so much to speak, So I suppose my Recently,

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Speaker 5: I have.

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Speaker 4: A work that's been exhibited over at Cement Fondu for

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Speaker 4: Well Pride, and the exhibition is linger Dash Talk, So

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Speaker 4: make sure you go check it out. There's beautiful mob

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Speaker 4: from lots of our Rainbow family coming together.

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Speaker 6: To share stories there through art.

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Speaker 4: And the work that I created was these beautiful rainbow

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Speaker 4: vulver shaped abalonis all over.

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Speaker 5: This planted piece of jew which we hung atop all of.

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Speaker 4: These abalone shells is walk on shells which I went

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Speaker 4: and collected from.

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Speaker 6: You and Ura, And I'll return to you and Ura

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Speaker 6: when the exhibition's over.

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Speaker 4: You know, when Captain Cook came it disrupted our women's ways.

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Speaker 4: We had women who would collect all of these abaloney,

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Speaker 4: these beautiful, delicious shellfish from country, and then the more

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Speaker 4: that they overfished, the more that this practice became further

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Speaker 4: out in sea, and we lost the knowledge economy over that,

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Speaker 4: and the right to be able to do those things.

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Speaker 4: But also it became somebody else's responsibility in our community

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Speaker 4: to take care of that practice then, which shifted the

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Speaker 4: roles in response abilities within our own networks. And then

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Speaker 4: beyond that, wherever the abalonis are overfish, the urchins move in,

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Speaker 4: which changes again that climate and that environment and affect

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Speaker 4: our knowledge systems, because if we're not handing down that

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Speaker 4: fishing practice of going and gathering these you know, abs

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Speaker 4: with our aunties and cleaning them on the rocks and

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Speaker 4: gutting them and chopping them up and cooking them, then

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Speaker 4: we're not sharing that knowledge in that story of that shellfish,

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Speaker 4: and that can be lost. And I don't know if

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Speaker 4: I answered your question then, but noyon that I think.

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Speaker 3: Is relevant, Absolutely no, some really valuable insights. There was

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Speaker 3: two dynamics that became clear to me there speaking about

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Speaker 3: consumption versus sort of knowledge sharing and conservation. How would

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Speaker 3: you sort of distinguish the difference between the two, And

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Speaker 3: you know what it could look like when you actually

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Speaker 3: get to take ownership of representation and of knowledge sharing

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Speaker 3: versus being consumed per se.

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Speaker 6: That's a delicious question.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's stuff that's done in community and

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Speaker 4: done in relationality. We've been yearning recently about the realities

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Speaker 4: of creating black business models within the broader business world

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Speaker 4: that we exist in, and how challenging it is to

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Speaker 4: remain in community, in collaboration, in connection, in a world

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Speaker 4: that or a society that benefits from stepping you out

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Speaker 4: into a hierarchical form.

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Speaker 6: To try and create money.

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Speaker 5: And you know, I still need to pay my bills.

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Speaker 6: So I get that.

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Speaker 4: But I think there's a really beautiful way of being

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Speaker 4: in our Black communities. And when I was preparing this

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Speaker 4: week for a keynote for International Women's.

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Speaker 5: Day, I was really holding onto that idea of we can.

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Speaker 4: Learn so much from the matriarchy in the way that

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Speaker 4: we could challenge the systems that exist. We could come

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Speaker 4: back into community and rather than feeling like we have

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Speaker 4: to fight it in isolation or separately, we could fight

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Speaker 4: this thing together and maintain the resilience of Black communities

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Speaker 4: and all of our women. Like the things my mother

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Speaker 4: has over come in her life are profound, and she

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Speaker 4: just keeps going and is continuously generous. So yeah, I

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Speaker 4: think we need to stay in that mindset as we

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Speaker 4: keep challenging the system and keep standing up and being bold,

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Speaker 4: beautiful Black women and women in the world together in

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Speaker 4: ourship and friendship, talking.

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Speaker 3: About resistance and resilience and that relationship there taking a

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Speaker 3: bit of a wider lens. Since last International Women's Day,

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Speaker 3: we've seen rov Wade get overturned. We've seen the Taliban's

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Speaker 3: return in Afghanistan mean that girls are banned from school,

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Speaker 3: and then there have been deaths and arrests in Iran

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Speaker 3: as women take to the streets to protest their country's regime.

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Speaker 3: How do you feel about the state of womanhood today?

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Speaker 5: It can be really depressing kind of to look.

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Speaker 4: At the realities that face women here and overseas. And

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Speaker 4: I keep coming back to black women because I am one,

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Speaker 4: you know. I think the realities of inequalities that black

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Speaker 4: women face this nation equal some of those human rights

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Speaker 4: infringements that we're seeing around the world. And it's so

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Speaker 4: it's so upsetting seeing cissies here and overseas being harmed,

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Speaker 4: and you can feel powerless in that struggle. But I

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Speaker 4: think we do have a lot of responsibility and a

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Speaker 4: lot of weight in the privilege that we have within

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Speaker 4: this nation to be able to amplify women of those

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Speaker 4: experiences here and also to be able to raise awareness

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Speaker 4: of things that are happening around the world and to

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Speaker 4: challenge that on a human rights stage globally and simultaneously

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Speaker 4: we're able to keep challenging the infringements that happen here.

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Speaker 4: And I think it's again comes back to that collective action.

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Speaker 4: We can bury ourhead in the sand, and sometimes we're

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Speaker 4: going to need rest, right Like, I'm big on rests

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Speaker 4: refusal and that being a really important part of regenerating,

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Speaker 4: grounding and gathering energy to be able to continue to

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Speaker 4: fight and have resistance, and that it's all of us

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Speaker 4: can do that. I see sometimes my friends in allyship

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Speaker 4: be like, oh, but is it my place?

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Speaker 6: I'm like, sis ware three percent of the population.

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Speaker 4: You know, we're going to need allies with us in

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Speaker 4: this to challenge the inequalities that black women face, and

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Speaker 4: we're going to need you to walk beside us or

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Speaker 4: just behind us, and to amplify us as we continue

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Speaker 4: to take this stage.

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Speaker 6: And I think it's the same for our our sisters overseas.

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Speaker 4: Let's center their voices and amplify them and make sure

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Speaker 4: that will keep showing up for them.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back right after this.

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Speaker 3: I want to know you're going to read us one

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Speaker 3: of your poems, but there's a line in that poem

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Speaker 3: our vision for justice will not go unhurt. And I

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Speaker 3: wanted to ask you this International Women's Day, what does

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Speaker 3: your vision of justice look like?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: I think I think it's that we become aware and

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Speaker 4: that we stand up together.

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Speaker 5: Because so often, you know.

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Speaker 4: The different themes to be International Women's Day, depending on

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Speaker 4: who you are and with are either embrace equity or

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Speaker 4: the other one is around AI and it which both

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Speaker 4: of them. I'm like, equity is about removing the barriers

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Speaker 4: and creating equal opportunity by acknowledging the injustices.

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Speaker 6: That exist within the system, which is a really hard

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Speaker 6: thing to do with over cupcakes.

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Speaker 4: And that's going to take a whole systematic reform that's

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Speaker 4: going to take all of.

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Speaker 6: Us challenging and our allies men as well, walking with

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Speaker 6: us in that journey.

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Speaker 4: And then if we're looking at it from the tech lens,

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Speaker 4: you know, we're still they're still in inequality within that

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Speaker 4: world too.

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Speaker 6: It's still a word that world that's monopolized by men predominantly.

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Speaker 4: And I think it's like seventy percent of journalists who

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Speaker 4: are female received online violence in the last year. So

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Speaker 4: my idea for justice is, rather than buying into thematics,

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Speaker 4: to continue to do the work that we're already doing,

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Speaker 4: to acknowledge the privilege that we have, and to use

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Speaker 4: that to amplify and mobilized change, and to take responsibility

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Speaker 4: to rest, to refuse, and to lean on the powerful

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Speaker 4: voices of black women, and to support them in their.

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Speaker 6: Journey because they've been doing it for a really long time.

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Speaker 3: Curly, thank you so much, such a beautiful conversation. I

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Speaker 3: would love for you to leave us with the reading

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Speaker 3: of one of your poems, title thank You.

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Speaker 4: Title is in Returning, which is coming out this year

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Speaker 4: with Nagaballa books. Oscillating between channels, we watch them victim

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Speaker 4: blame La Nina and her trade winds which surge east,

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Speaker 4: drawing cool water from the deep to surface Earth's heat.

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Speaker 4: On screen, polleys are in discreet with euphemism, casting climate

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Speaker 4: change is hot, blush assaults, allegation we change the station. Understanding,

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Speaker 4: denial and gendered violence are everywhere here. They gaslight the sky,

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Speaker 4: silence the cries and rain that flow heavy over Mother,

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Speaker 4: while another mum.

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Speaker 6: Waghs waters to rescue her own.

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Speaker 4: Soon the trrent will subside, but nothing could hide the

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Speaker 4: line of the tide from the moontime memory.

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Speaker 6: Of a woman.

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Speaker 5: On the news.

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Speaker 4: They justify worth with relation, mistaken that for protection a

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Speaker 4: female needs a title. Nurda responds with tide or overflow

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Speaker 4: of her own. She takes up space, evacuates homes, raises

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Speaker 4: damn walls, and closes the coast.

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Speaker 5: Nada shows that she could never.

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Speaker 4: Be too much, encouraging trust in the swell of rage

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Speaker 4: that arrives in US as charges pressed out on mass

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Speaker 4: march allies by survivors a one hundred year flood. When

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Speaker 4: Nadas as enough is enough, the world stops to listen, and,

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Speaker 4: like her, our vision for justice will not go unheard.

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Speaker 4: They cannot disregard the waves of change we make when

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Speaker 4: we rise like water.

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Speaker 5: Mother women One.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Curly.

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Speaker 4: Gevin Gie, thank you so much for your time today

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Speaker 4: and for your juicy questions. I hope you have a

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Speaker 4: justice field powerful International Women's Day week and that you're buoyed.

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Speaker 6: Up yeah by beautiful, beautiful people around you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us on our International

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Speaker 2: Women's Day episode. Of the Daily OS. Well done, Sunny

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Speaker 2: partly day Boot.

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Speaker 3: Thanks having me, Bye,