WEBVTT - Is AI bad for the environment?

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is the daily This is the daily

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<v Speaker 1>ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning, and welcome to the Daily Ods. It's Monday,

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<v Speaker 2>the tenth of February. I'm emma, and I'm a told.

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<v Speaker 2>Artificial intelligence or AI has become increasingly ingrained in our

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<v Speaker 2>lives in recent years, and we've seen this technology used

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<v Speaker 2>for both good and for bad, from life changing medical

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<v Speaker 2>discoveries to the rise of explicit deep fakes. But during

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<v Speaker 2>the recent AI boom, we've heard a lot of conversations

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<v Speaker 2>around ethics and safety. As those conversations have become more intense,

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<v Speaker 2>there is a lesser discussed concern that is now gaining attention,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's all about the environmental impact of AI.

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<v Speaker 1>AI requires immense quantities of resources, and this includes electricity, water,

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<v Speaker 1>and finite minerals. Now, with a growing amount of AI,

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<v Speaker 1>it's carbon footprint is only expected to rise in coming decades. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to explore that early Red Flag's environmental experts

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<v Speaker 1>are raising and what they mean for the sustainability of AI.

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<v Speaker 2>Chol you have gone deep on this topic for us

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<v Speaker 2>because I think we've seen a lot of headlines floating

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<v Speaker 2>around lately about AI not being great for the environment.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's a confusing space to start with. Let alone,

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<v Speaker 2>before we get into the specifics of this, it does

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<v Speaker 2>feel like a really new advancement. But I was surprised

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<v Speaker 2>when you told me. AI is a term that was

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<v Speaker 2>first coined in nineteen fifty five by an American computer scientist.

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<v Speaker 2>His name was John McCarthy. But these days, when we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about AI, I think most people are probably thinking

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<v Speaker 2>of what's called generative AI. So that's like open AI's

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<v Speaker 2>chat GPT, right, so those chatbot based systems which are

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<v Speaker 2>built on large language models, and that means they use

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<v Speaker 2>these vast databases of online text and images to generate

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<v Speaker 2>new content. Now that chat GPT has become so incredibly popular, though,

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<v Speaker 2>people are turning to this discussion about its demands, So achold,

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<v Speaker 2>what does it actually take to power generative AI like

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<v Speaker 2>chat GPT?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so popular might just be an understatement. So since

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<v Speaker 1>launching in November twenty twenty two, chat gpt has amassed

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<v Speaker 1>around three hundred million weekly active users worldwide. Wow, I know.

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<v Speaker 1>So every time someone asks chat gpt to complete a task,

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<v Speaker 1>it uses around two point nine what's per hour of energy? Now,

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<v Speaker 1>that's according to the International Energy Agency. To really put

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<v Speaker 1>this into perspective, a recent study found that chat GPT

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<v Speaker 1>consumes enough power annually to charge over three million electric

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<v Speaker 1>cars or about fifty million iPhones.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, I got to be honest with you, I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know what what's per hour energy really meant. So that

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<v Speaker 2>definitely helps put it into perspective.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Absolutely. Now, Chat GPT has dominated the AI space

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<v Speaker 1>for the past three years that it's been running. However,

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<v Speaker 1>this year we witnessed a new generative AI called deep

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<v Speaker 1>Seek disrupt global financial markets and you probably saw headlines left,

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<v Speaker 1>right and center earlier this year. Now, the Chinese model

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<v Speaker 1>introduced itself as a cheaper, more energy efficient alternative to

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<v Speaker 1>its American competitors. Just like open AIS Chat GPT, deep

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<v Speaker 1>Sea can summarize texts, answer questions, and generate writing based

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<v Speaker 1>on prompts. Now, what's really fascinating about deep Seek is

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<v Speaker 1>that it performs just as well as the leading American

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<v Speaker 1>AI systems, but only for a fraction of the cost,

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<v Speaker 1>and it claims it can use up to forty times

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<v Speaker 1>less energy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is a big claim from deep Seek, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think we're all kind of waiting to hear a

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<v Speaker 2>bit more about how it plans on achieving that or

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<v Speaker 2>if it will really be able to offer the same

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<v Speaker 2>service as a chat GPT. But when we think about

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<v Speaker 2>the environmental impact of generative AI, it's not just about

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<v Speaker 2>this massive strain on energy grids. There are other strains

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<v Speaker 2>on resources right.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly right. The resources needed to run, support and train

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<v Speaker 1>generative AI a house in these facilities called data centers. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>while the exact figures are still being debated, it's estimated

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<v Speaker 1>that AI data centers account for up to one point

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<v Speaker 1>five percent of global electricity usage. Now that might seem small,

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<v Speaker 1>but it means that a single data center could consume

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<v Speaker 1>enough energy to heat fifty thousand homes for a whole year. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>these facilities are expected to use as much power annually

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<v Speaker 1>as countries like Japan and Russia by next year. That's

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<v Speaker 1>according to a recent study from mit SO. This raises

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<v Speaker 1>concerns amongst experts who fear it could potentially put additional

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<v Speaker 1>strain on electricity on global electricity grids, including countries like

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<v Speaker 1>Australia where we are regularly experiencing blackouts.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's hard to imagine, I guess in places like

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<v Speaker 2>Australia where there is that strain on grids and uncertainty

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<v Speaker 2>about you know what the long term sustainability of those

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<v Speaker 2>grids looks like. Then this huge extra strain, it sounds

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<v Speaker 2>like a lot of work. So ATOL, you've got these

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<v Speaker 2>massive facilities that you've talked us through that store this

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<v Speaker 2>large infrastructure and machinery. So we've learned that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>AI puts a strain on electricity demands because of the

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<v Speaker 2>actual process of asking it questions. Then there's also the

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<v Speaker 2>physical places where the computing lives. I can only imagine

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<v Speaker 2>how hot those rooms could get. I mean think about

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<v Speaker 2>like when you have a laptop, a small laptop on

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<v Speaker 2>your lap, the fan is going into overdrive. It gets

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<v Speaker 2>really hot on your lap. That's like a small laptop

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<v Speaker 2>that generates that kind of a heat. I mean, if

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<v Speaker 2>you've got this much machinery in these facilities, I'm sure

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<v Speaker 2>it must get really warm.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh exactly. I mean, AI centers need advance cooling system

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<v Speaker 1>so basically keep the technology from overheating. Traditionally, data centers

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<v Speaker 1>rely on air cooling to manage rising temperatures caused by

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<v Speaker 1>the heat emitted from the hardware. However, this isn't quite

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<v Speaker 1>sufficient for AI technology. So what that means is modern

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<v Speaker 1>data centers are using liquid cooling systems that rely on

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<v Speaker 1>water to keep temperatures between the ideal terms of twenty

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<v Speaker 1>one and twenty four degrees.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm trying to write my head around this concept

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<v Speaker 2>because the idea of water and computers pretty much goes

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<v Speaker 2>against everything we've ever been told.

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<v Speaker 1>Right exactly, But I wouldn't recommend throwing a glass of

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<v Speaker 1>water at your laptop right now, okay noted, So researchers

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<v Speaker 1>in the US predict that by twenty twenty seven, up

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<v Speaker 1>to six point six billion cubic meters of water will

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<v Speaker 1>be needed annually to meet global AI demands. That's equivalent

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<v Speaker 1>to half of the UK's yearly water consumption. Okay, a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of water, a lot exactly. These statistics raise concerns

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<v Speaker 1>for climate experts, who basically say, in a country like

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<v Speaker 1>Australia who experiences droughts regularly, this would be detrimental.

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<v Speaker 2>With droughts. I mean, if we look at the climate science,

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<v Speaker 2>its droughts are expected to intensify those kind of long

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<v Speaker 2>periods without rain, and this water usage I can imagine

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<v Speaker 2>for those climate experts. Kind of sounds an alarm exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Now. Water consumption isn't the only environmental issue linked to

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<v Speaker 1>data centers. The greenhouse gas emissions released from these facilities

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<v Speaker 1>are also sounding the alarm in the fight against global warming.

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<v Speaker 1>Exact figures on AI's contribution to global emissions still remain unclear.

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<v Speaker 1>The International Energy Agency estimates that data centers account for

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<v Speaker 1>zero point six percent of annual emissions, while Science and

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<v Speaker 1>Technology Australia say this figure has already hit one percent.

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<v Speaker 2>So some kind of differences in the scale there, but

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<v Speaker 2>anywhere between kind of half to one percent of emissions

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<v Speaker 2>exactly now.

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<v Speaker 1>Recent reports warned that if AI adoption continues at the

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<v Speaker 1>current pace that it's going, data centers could account for

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<v Speaker 1>fourteen percent of yearly emissions by twenty forty. Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>Predictions like that, I mean, might just become a reality.

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<v Speaker 2>If we look to the reports of rising emissions among

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<v Speaker 2>tech giants using AI, they have been transparent about this,

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<v Speaker 2>and I guess that's kind of why we've taken note

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<v Speaker 2>and why we're talking about it today. What do we

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<v Speaker 2>know from those tech giants about their emissions?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, in the case of Microsoft, in its latest

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<v Speaker 1>Sustainability Report, it attributed a thirty percent increase in its

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<v Speaker 1>carbon emissions since twenty twenty due to AI models and

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<v Speaker 1>services that it provides.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, so Microsoft is saying that it's emissions, like the

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<v Speaker 2>whole of Microsoft, increased by thirty percent because of what

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<v Speaker 2>it takes to run AI.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly that. Now, despite this, we know that tech giants

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<v Speaker 1>have no plans on scaling back their AI programs. So

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<v Speaker 1>basically this means greater demand for infrastructure and resources, which

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<v Speaker 1>brings us to mining. So lithium is one of the

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<v Speaker 1>key materials used to produce the rechargeable batteries that powers

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<v Speaker 1>AI technology, and Australia is one of the largest producers

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<v Speaker 1>of the mineral.

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<v Speaker 2>We have heard a lot about lithium in recent years.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, it's something that goes in phones, computers, batteries

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<v Speaker 2>of all kinds. And you're right, Australia is the world's

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<v Speaker 2>largest lithium producer. But we might not be forever.

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<v Speaker 1>No, not exactly. So a twenty twenty study from a

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<v Speaker 1>German university found that global lithium deposits could be depleted

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<v Speaker 1>sometime within the next seventy five years. So with the

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<v Speaker 1>rapid uptake of AI services. Some experts predict that lithium

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<v Speaker 1>shortages could occur as soon as twenty forty now. Additionally,

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<v Speaker 1>the amount of eWays generated through the frequent maintenance of

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<v Speaker 1>AI equipment poses a significant challenge to Australia's waste and

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<v Speaker 1>recycling systems.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, there are so many aspects to the sustainability concerns here.

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<v Speaker 2>We've heard about the power it takes to ask chat

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<v Speaker 2>GPT a question, the electricity and water it takes for

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<v Speaker 2>these computers to be stored, and then we've also got

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<v Speaker 2>this e waste and the mining of lithium to think about.

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<v Speaker 2>You're right that AI isn't going anywhere. We are only

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<v Speaker 2>hearing more and more about its advancements and how we

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<v Speaker 2>can live alongside AI or integrate it into our life,

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<v Speaker 2>into our work. But what are the experts saying about

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<v Speaker 2>how we ensure that this technology doesn't set us back

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<v Speaker 2>environmentally even while it might kind of bring us forward technologically.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's exactly what global leaders are trying to figure

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<v Speaker 1>out with the help of these environmental and technological experts.

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<v Speaker 1>So last year in Australia, the Federal Senate launched an

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<v Speaker 1>inquiry into AI to explore both its opportunities and its impacts.

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<v Speaker 1>So the inquiry held six public hearings and received submissions

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<v Speaker 1>from two hundred and forty five experts, academics, business leaders

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<v Speaker 1>and members of the public.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a lot of submissions. Were there any kind of

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<v Speaker 2>common themes that came up.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So the environmental impacts of AI was a major

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<v Speaker 1>concern basically across all submissions and in its omissions. UNSWAI

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<v Speaker 1>Institute noted that the impacts of AI are currently difficult

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<v Speaker 1>to quantify due to few standards for its reporting.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so I think that's kind of been reflected in

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<v Speaker 2>some of the numbers we've talked about today.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a bit of a range scope. There's not kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a definitive regulatory body that says this is what

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<v Speaker 2>AI is doing and these are the emissions that it's

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<v Speaker 2>contributing and that kind of thing. So I guess that

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<v Speaker 2>makes it difficult to get a real sense of what's

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<v Speaker 2>going on. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Science and Technology Australia, which is the peak body

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<v Speaker 1>for Australia science and technology sector, called on governments to

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<v Speaker 1>ensure that renewable energy policy and net zero investments play

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<v Speaker 1>a key role in developing digital infrastructure to support AI

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<v Speaker 1>use in Australia. Now, what's interesting is that recent innovations

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<v Speaker 1>show that AI can actually help us tackle environmental challenges.

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting, I know.

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<v Speaker 1>So the Federal Department of Industry, Science and Resources showed

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<v Speaker 1>that AI could help address some of the world's most

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<v Speaker 1>pressing climate change issues. The Australian Human Rights Commission said

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<v Speaker 1>that AI has the potential to positively impact the environment

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<v Speaker 1>in several ways, including by improving energy efficiency and enhancing

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<v Speaker 1>sustainable practices.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the interesting ones that the Federal government flagged

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<v Speaker 2>I remember is how AI could be used for firefighting technologies.

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<v Speaker 2>That they developed an AI technology that could detect small

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<v Speaker 2>fires and predict fire behavior patterns, which is of course,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, beneficial to the environment on the other side

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<v Speaker 2>of this coin exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>But despite that, the Australian Human Rights Commission did warn

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<v Speaker 1>AI pose a significant risk. Now, ultimate knowledge is power,

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<v Speaker 1>so by increasing transparency around the potential environmental impacts of AI,

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<v Speaker 1>the risk may be mitigated atoll.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for breaking that down for us.

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<v Speaker 2>A very very big, complicated story, but you've made sense

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<v Speaker 2>of it for us, So we thank you for joining

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<v Speaker 2>us on the podcast today. And thank you for listening.

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<v Speaker 2>If you like today's episode, if you learn something, feel

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<v Speaker 2>free to pass it on to a friend. Don't forget

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<v Speaker 2>Os or if you're watching us over on our YouTube.

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<v Speaker 2>We will be back a little bit later today with

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<v Speaker 2>the evening headlines. Until then, have a great day.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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<v Speaker 1>Bunje lung Kalkotin woman from Gadigl Country. The Daily Os

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<v Speaker 1>acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of

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<v Speaker 1>the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and

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<v Speaker 1>Torres Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to

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<v Speaker 1>the first peoples of these countries, both past and present