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Speaker 1: I know that everybody has seen and heard these explosive

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Speaker 1: claims made by former Northern Territory Police Constable Zachary Rolf

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Speaker 1: at the coronial inquest into the death of Kumen Jay

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Speaker 1: Walker earlier this week, claiming the Northern Territory Police Force

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Speaker 1: has an ingrained culture of racism. Now, he told the

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Speaker 1: court that racist language was commonplace throughout the force. He said,

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen a lot of racist behavior, but racist

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Speaker 1: language was normalized in the Northern Territory Police Force. Now

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Speaker 1: joining me in the studio to talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about this is the Northern Territory President of the

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Speaker 1: Police Association, Nathan Finn. Good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie, and good morning to your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Finny, thanks so much for your time this morning. Mate.

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Speaker 1: What was your reaction to the claims made by the

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Speaker 1: former Northern Territory Police Constable.

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Speaker 2: So the directions to us, obviously right across the Northern

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Speaker 2: Territory Police Force were quite shocked, and obviously these revelations

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Speaker 2: come through. I've obviously spoken to the people that were

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Speaker 2: obviously named in this stuff we've gone through. But my

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Speaker 2: biggest thing and my biggest fear, I obviously can't talk

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Speaker 2: too much into it because there's obviously internal investigation going on.

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Speaker 2: I've spoken the Commission about this yesterday. There's an internal

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Speaker 2: investigation going on by our own Professional Stands Command and

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Speaker 2: also with the Ikak as well in relation to these

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Speaker 2: allegations we're made at court. I find it hard because

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Speaker 2: it actually paints a bad brush on our Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: Police Force and the good work that they do, and

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Speaker 2: especially our Aboriginal employees and how they must be feeling

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Speaker 2: at this time. They're feeling undervalued as it is, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of our staff are and to get this

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Speaker 2: on top of already trying circumstances which they're trying to work.

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Speaker 2: I'm not naive that this doesn't happen in any workplace.

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Speaker 2: We are understanding, but the fact is we don't see this.

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Speaker 2: We don't see this type of behavior. I've spoken to

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Speaker 2: the members involved that I obviously had these claims made

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Speaker 2: against them. We're supporting them as much as we can

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Speaker 2: as well, but my support goes out to our Abriginal employees.

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Speaker 2: So obviously hearing this racist language that's coming out and

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Speaker 2: the effect that's having on them, it's very trying for them.

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Speaker 1: Time it's wonderful, Like some of that language is absolutely wonderful.

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Speaker 1: You know, I said it on air earlier in the week.

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Speaker 1: My nieces and nephews are Indigenous, like some of those words.

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Speaker 1: I just they're not even in my vocabulary.

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Speaker 2: You know, definitely not. And to have that placed on us,

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Speaker 2: that it's a systemic racism problem in the Northern Churchy

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Speaker 2: Police Force, it's very disheartening. It's very our members are

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Speaker 2: upset by it. It doesn't occur. This is a behavior.

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Speaker 2: We don't accept it police as well. We're a very

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Speaker 2: professional organization. We have some trying times, no doubt, we

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Speaker 2: have trying times every time we go to work, but

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Speaker 2: we don't portray this type of language in the workplace

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Speaker 2: at all, Katie.

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Speaker 1: I mean some of the accusations he made about the

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Speaker 1: TRG and an award that he reckons that they that

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Speaker 1: they hold. I mean, are you aware of that or

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Speaker 1: what do you make of that?

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Speaker 2: I'm aware of that, Katie. And there were some statements

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Speaker 2: submitted to the court last night in relation to those

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Speaker 2: awards and clarifying some of the points that mister Ralford

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Speaker 2: made in the courtroom. That information evidence will be provided

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Speaker 2: to the court today so I've actually seen that information

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Speaker 2: last night and basically discount what's been said in the

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Speaker 2: court previously this week.

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Speaker 1: So not true.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's correct.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So that's the statements that are going to

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Speaker 1: be presented to the Coroner's court.

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Speaker 2: That'll be presented of the current I can't obviously coind

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Speaker 2: it too much of it. It's going to before the

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Speaker 2: court and going to be for the coroner today, but

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Speaker 2: I'm aware of the information that's going towards the coroner today.

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Speaker 1: Canny, have you spoken to you know, to any of

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Speaker 1: your like the Indigenous workforce over the last couple of

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Speaker 1: days and heard how they are feeling.

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Speaker 2: I have, Yeah, and especially I've obviously got to average

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Speaker 2: a lady on my executive board of the NTPA as well,

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Speaker 2: and she's struggling with this as they all are. I've

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Speaker 2: spoken to a few and Alice Springs yesterday. I know

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Speaker 2: some of our correct workers have actually been given a

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Speaker 2: couple of days off because they're really struggling with this

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Speaker 2: and really struggling with the language that was used in court.

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Speaker 2: They find it very offensive and understandably so, like Katie,

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Speaker 2: this is not something that we can done at the

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Speaker 2: Northern churchy police and our members don't condone this as well.

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Speaker 2: We don't go around saying this sort of stuff, so

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Speaker 2: it takes it, takes it to heart and actually makes

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Speaker 2: him feel undervalued in the workplace.

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Speaker 1: Have I mean, have you witnessed racist behavior all language

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Speaker 1: yourself within the force.

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Speaker 2: I'm not no eve, Katie, and I've seen I've heard it,

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Speaker 2: We've dealt with it. But again, it's not systemic. It's

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Speaker 2: isolated incidents by sometimes frustrated officers where they're venting in

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Speaker 2: a not right way. Okay, but they're conversations we have

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Speaker 2: at the time with them, but we're not saying this

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Speaker 2: is an example of this, as I used yesterday to

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Speaker 2: another colleague, was if I took seventy five percent of

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Speaker 2: people's phone out in the community and we downloaded all

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Speaker 2: their information about what they'd been doing in the last

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Speaker 2: six months, I can guarantee this stuff on there that

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Speaker 2: they'd be embarrassed about. And that's that's the case in

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Speaker 2: this scenario. They're closed conversations that have occurred between a

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Speaker 2: small group of people not knowing that their behavior. Doesn't

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Speaker 2: condone their behavior, but again it's there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Finny, I like to anybody listening this morning, you know,

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Speaker 1: particularly members of the indigenous community that are listening this

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Speaker 1: morning that are thinking, goodness, may is a Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: police force like is there? You know, is there systemic racism?

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Speaker 1: What would you say to that?

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Speaker 2: I can reassure you that this is not systemic across

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Speaker 2: the Northern Churchy Police Force. This is an isolated incident

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Speaker 2: and unfortunately it's come out in a public arena and

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Speaker 2: it's been put out there that this is obviously in

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Speaker 2: being portrayed as a systemic issue across the Northern Churching

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Speaker 2: Police Force. I can honestly say that this is not

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Speaker 2: Katie Finny.

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Speaker 1: In terms of the investigation. Then it's underway. You feel

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Speaker 1: as though that'll be adequate, like that it's going to

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Speaker 1: get to the bottom of it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it'll get to the bottom of it. Again, these

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Speaker 2: officers that have been accused of this sort of behavior

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Speaker 2: and been involved in this behavior have made a statement

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Speaker 2: to the court which will be released today and discussed

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Speaker 2: obviously today in the proceedings as it goes on. But

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Speaker 2: again we'll let the investigation go through and see what

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Speaker 2: they come back with. I'm happy to and most of

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Speaker 2: our members have been happy to go through a thorough

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Speaker 2: investigation to make sure it's not part of our duties.

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Speaker 2: It's not part of what we do every day. We're

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Speaker 2: there to protect, especially Aboriginal people. We deal with Aboriginal

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Speaker 2: people ninety percent of the day unfortunately, and we're there

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Speaker 2: to support them as much as we can as well.

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Speaker 1: I do want to move along because there is quite

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Speaker 1: a bit that I'm keen to cover off on this morning,

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Speaker 1: including this announcement that was made earlier in the week

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Speaker 1: about pathways for palis to be able to become constables.

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Speaker 1: Is this something that the association has been pushing for.

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Speaker 2: This is something we've been pushing for Katie to move

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Speaker 2: away from the licensing space. And don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 2: this is something that the NTPA have been pushing the

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Speaker 2: government for that we should be making these positions to

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Speaker 2: constable positions. But the fact is, and obviously speaking to

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Speaker 2: my colleagues yesterday, we're quite concerned about the transition from

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Speaker 2: our palies to constables. You'll see that, and speaking yesterday,

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Speaker 2: I've located that. You know how the federal government and

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Speaker 2: the Prime Minister come out in February last year and

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Speaker 2: made the announcement of thirty extraditional officers. Yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: believe the decision around this promoting this is simply a

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Speaker 2: decision based on that to fill that thirty vacancy's officers.

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Speaker 1: So you reckon it's just to feel the jobs that

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Speaker 1: they'd promised.

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Speaker 2: But the biggest concern, Katie is at the moment I've

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Speaker 2: spoken to the executive about this at the police force,

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Speaker 2: we're already twenty eight officers down from that time last

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Speaker 2: year in Alice Springs, So they're twenty eight officers short.

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Speaker 2: That's constables short, and now potentially they're going to lose

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Speaker 2: another nineteen for this PALI to transition course out of

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Speaker 2: Alice Springs over the next two weeks.

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Speaker 1: Over the next two weeks, you're saying that we're going

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Speaker 1: to be washed nearly fifty officers.

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Speaker 2: Shorty seven officers in Alice Springs will be short as

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Speaker 2: of the eleventh of March. I know there's some offices

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Speaker 2: to look.

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Speaker 1: Us through exactly how what's it like. I'm just trying

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Speaker 1: to get that mats round in my head. I'm not

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Speaker 1: the best at mats, but I'm just trying to get

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Speaker 1: through my head how that's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: Twenty eight constables are actually short. They've transitioned out of

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Speaker 2: the Southern Region. In that twelve month period, we've had

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Speaker 2: two offices come back to the Northern Territory Police, which

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Speaker 2: there was thirty or so left Alice Springs Constable was

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Speaker 2: and they've transferred to other divisions in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: Police or transferred other positions. On top of that is

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Speaker 2: the nineteen palis that are actually going to be removed

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Speaker 2: and placed on this constable's course in Alice Springs as

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Speaker 2: starting on the eleventh of March. So from Alice Springs

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Speaker 2: on the eleventh of March, they're not going to have

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Speaker 2: a position. They're going to have two operational palis in

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Speaker 2: Alice Springs to conduct this bottle shop work in Alice Springs.

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Speaker 1: Who of them two to do all the bottle shop work?

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Speaker 2: And the members reporting to me, they're fearing like the

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Speaker 2: end of stronger Futures legislation in Alice Springs, but.

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Speaker 1: They are worried that's going to happen. They're worried that's.

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Speaker 2: Going to happen, but they're worried about what's actually going

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Speaker 2: to take place in the communit because we haven't got

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Speaker 2: the members to draw upon like we did back with

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Speaker 2: that role back they haven't got the councils to draw upon.

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Speaker 2: I know there's fourteen councils I believe going down there

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Speaker 2: in a couple of weeks that have just graduated here

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Speaker 2: in Darwin. But again they're not going to be able

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Speaker 2: to hit the ground running. They're there to learn their craft.

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Speaker 2: But our members down they're extremely worried.

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Speaker 1: So the police down in Alice Springs, Soconty, they're really

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Speaker 1: very worried about this.

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Speaker 2: Actually actually, look, we're going to go back to a

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Speaker 2: stronger futures end of stronger futures legislation. What's the plan

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Speaker 2: for these bottle shops? Because if we've got constables doing

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Speaker 2: this role, they're going to burn out. These councilors are

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Speaker 2: actually doing the role, Finny.

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Speaker 1: The government had said that there were like they were

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Speaker 1: saying that liquor inspectors are going to be able to

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Speaker 1: fill that war it or that shortfall. Surely, I mean,

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Speaker 1: have we got enough of those?

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Speaker 2: Definitely not, Katie. And that's this is what we've asked for.

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Speaker 2: We shouldn't be our job anyway to do it. And

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Speaker 2: we've said this time and time again. The police auxiliary

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Speaker 2: licensing inspectors were at temporary solution to a bigger solution,

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Speaker 2: a bigger band aid that obviously needs to be placed

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Speaker 2: over this problem, the alcoholism in the Northern Territory. But

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Speaker 2: the biggest issue that I've had with this palily to

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Speaker 2: count Constable's transition. I've spoken to a pali who has

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Speaker 2: done one shift in other springs and he got offered

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Speaker 2: a transition course on the Constable's course. He's got no experience,

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Speaker 2: he's just done his pally training, but he's been offered

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Speaker 2: a position on this Constable course, on this streamline Constable course,

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Speaker 2: despite not having the requisite skills or.

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Speaker 1: So you reckon. They're just pushing people through.

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Speaker 2: I know they're pushing people through, Katie, and that's their

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Speaker 2: biggest problem. And our members down there and the chain

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Speaker 2: of command down they have not recommended people to go

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Speaker 2: and transition to this course, and they are transitioning them

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Speaker 2: regardless of what the management team is saying. Especially in

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Speaker 2: these remote areas like Tenant Creek rely on the palis

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Speaker 2: for their three hours of takeaway our outlets. They haven't

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Speaker 2: got that. They haven't got that staff to use which

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Speaker 2: they use in the watchhouse. So therefore constables have actually

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Speaker 2: drawn off the front line to those administration type roles

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Speaker 2: to support that because we've got no palies and this

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Speaker 2: is not going to be for two weeks, three weeks,

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Speaker 2: it's actually for sixteen weeks Katie, that they're not going

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Speaker 2: to have these people in these positions. So Tenant Creek,

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Speaker 2: Catherine Alice Springs are going to cop the brunt of

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Speaker 2: this and it's going to force our constables off the

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Speaker 2: front line into these administrating type roles.

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Speaker 1: So I guess what you're saying is the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: government needs to come out and say who is going

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Speaker 1: to be filling those jobs or who's going to be

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Speaker 1: on those bottle shops making sure that the job of

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Speaker 1: the palais is still able to be conducted.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and it's something that you can't actually do

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Speaker 2: ad hoc. So if you cover one bottle shop, especially

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Speaker 2: in Ola Springs, they're going to go to another one.

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Speaker 2: There's obviously restrictions you can place and do risk assessments

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Speaker 2: about who can sell what amount of alcohol, especially obviously

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Speaker 2: coals and woolwors and that sort of stuff can sell

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Speaker 2: endless supplies where your local shops and Ala Springs don't

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Speaker 2: have that ability. But my main concern is are these

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Speaker 2: people suitable to be constables or we're just trying to

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Speaker 2: fill holes and expediate our officers going to the constable

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Speaker 2: ranks because of how short we are, and I think

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Speaker 2: this is going to buy the Northern Territory Police Force.

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Speaker 2: And also I feel for the trainers that are going

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Speaker 2: to have to train these people that have been proven

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Speaker 2: that they shouldn't be on the constable course, but they're

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Speaker 2: getting offered a job as a constables.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, it's a big concern that you've raised.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of really big concerns there,

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Speaker 1: and making sure that we've got people that are actually

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Speaker 1: adequately trained to or not train they're going to go

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Speaker 1: through that training course, but adequate and appropriate I guess,

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Speaker 1: to go through the constable's course. But I also want

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Speaker 1: to ask you in terms of those palies being taken

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Speaker 1: off the bottle shops and not having then those palies

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Speaker 1: on the bottle shops, like you've said that we're not

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Speaker 1: going to have them basically for quite a long period

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Speaker 1: of time there from March. Do you think that that

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Speaker 1: could potentially create dangerous situations then for those bottle shops

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Speaker 1: and for people.

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Speaker 2: Who were We've seen what happened when we roll back

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Speaker 2: the Stronger Futures legislation, Catie, we didn't have adequate cover

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Speaker 2: of the alcohol sales and didn't have restrictions in place

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Speaker 2: for this. We're worried that it's going to go to

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Speaker 2: the extent of the crime rate rising again, rates rising

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Speaker 2: again for Ourlis Springs, and I'm concerned for these major

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Speaker 2: centers that have had this restriction in place. With the

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Speaker 2: palis operating and operating effectively quite mind you, and supporting.

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Speaker 2: They're not only supporting the community, they're supporting our front

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Speaker 2: line as well, to make sure that that workload has

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Speaker 2: not passed onto these frontline offices that have to put

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Speaker 2: up with this and deal with this alcoholism every day.

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Speaker 1: Any some people listening might be thinking, are you just

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Speaker 1: scare mongering here.

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Speaker 2: I'm not not Ski Munger at all. These are genuine

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Speaker 2: concerns raised by our members, and I spoke to him personally.

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Speaker 2: As of yesterday last night. This is constant. They're worried

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Speaker 2: that these they're going to be left short and they're

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Speaker 2: going to be left holding what potentially is going to

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Speaker 2: be of a harmful situation for these communities, and I

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Speaker 2: want to know what mister Potter has to plan in

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Speaker 2: relation to what they're going to put in place in

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Speaker 2: the meantime.

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Speaker 1: Well, look we've got him on the show on Monday,

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Speaker 1: so we'll see if we can get to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of that and find out what. You know, what they

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Speaker 1: have got planned, I guess because for the people of

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Speaker 1: Alice Springs, you do want to make sure that things

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Speaker 1: stay safe. But there has also been calls I know

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Speaker 1: from Tourism centralist Astralia for a bit of a roll

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Speaker 1: back to some of those alcohol restrictions. What do you

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Speaker 1: make of that at this point in time? And look,

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Speaker 1: I don't have all the details yet from Tourism Central Australia.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to catch up with Yeah, I'll be catching

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Speaker 1: up with him shortly, but yeah, what do you make

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Speaker 1: of it?

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Speaker 2: Any restrictions that reduce the harm in the communic Katy,

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Speaker 2: the police are all supportive. We see this day in

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Speaker 2: day out. We see this firsthand, Katie, and our members

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Speaker 2: are dealing with this first hand every day of the week.

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Speaker 2: It's a blight on society. It's the safety in our

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Speaker 2: community and we need to look after these people. We

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Speaker 2: need mana trey treatment. I know we talk about this,

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Speaker 2: it hasn't worked before, and there's experts out there that

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Speaker 2: says it doesn't work. What else are we going to do.

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Speaker 2: We can't keep trying the same thing and expecting a

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Speaker 2: different result. We need to actually strengthen our lequer legislation

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Speaker 2: in relation to our takeaway alcohol and put that in

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Speaker 2: place and make sure that's effective. I don't agree with

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Speaker 2: police standing on bottle shops. I don't agree with license

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Speaker 2: inspectors standing on bottle shops either. Were should be measures

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Speaker 2: in place to put this to make sure the community

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Speaker 2: is protected.

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Speaker 1: Nathan Finn, President of the Northern Territory Police Association. Always

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Speaker 1: appreciate your time.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you Katie, and obviously thank you to

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Speaker 2: our guys and girls in blue out there. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: a very tough time this week, and obviously we've got

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Speaker 2: a couple more days of this coronial to go through.

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Speaker 2: But we're thinking of everyone out there and keep doing

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Speaker 2: what you're doing. You do an amazing job and protecting

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Speaker 2: the community and don't let a little few things and

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Speaker 2: comments made to affect your ability to do that role.

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Speaker 2: We support you and always got your.

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Speaker 1: Back, and it sounds like they've had a busy morning

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Speaker 1: as well. Matt Cunningham joining us a little while ago

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Speaker 1: to say that they'd apprehended a stolen vehicle on the

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Speaker 1: roads there in the northern suburbs, striving dangerously when kids

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Speaker 1: are trying to get to school. There are a lot

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Speaker 1: of dangerous situations at the mind.

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Speaker 2: Of dangerous situations last night and Alice springs as a

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Speaker 2: fatal pastur they last night that our members obviously would

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Speaker 2: have dealt with. So yeah, yeah, it's a tough gig.

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Speaker 2: Our members are up to doing that gig, but they

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Speaker 2: need that support and resources to actually fulfill their role

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Speaker 2: and make sure they're supported in the street.

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Speaker 1: Nathan Finn, thank you as always.