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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, I think if we rewind to that little kid

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Speaker 2: who were trying to teach to check in with somebody,

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Speaker 2: we rewind that moment where we're trying to teach our

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Speaker 2: boys that women are human beings.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Today. This is doctor Justin Colson On, the author of

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Speaker 3: six books about making families happy, and the founder of

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Speaker 3: Happy Families dot com dot you, And I'm here with

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Speaker 3: my beautiful wife Kylie, co host of the podcast and

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Speaker 3: mum to our six kids. Kylie a follow on from

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Speaker 3: our last conversation with Professor Meghan Mass. Really excited for

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Speaker 3: our discussion today.

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Speaker 4: I've heard a lot of people talk about sex education,

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Speaker 4: and specifically at the moment in media, about consent education.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So last week we were talking with Meghan about adolescence

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Speaker 3: and the consumption and exposure to pornography. So today, because

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Speaker 3: we didn't get it in last week, we figured we'd

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Speaker 3: talk consent. Oh, by the way, before we go too far,

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Speaker 3: I need to highlight today's podcast contains mature themes that

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Speaker 3: include topics around sex, consent, pornography, and other associated issues.

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Speaker 3: While the podcast is not rated explicit, the content may

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Speaker 3: not be suitable for some people. Actually, before you dive,

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Speaker 3: because I know you've got some questions about this, I

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Speaker 3: just want to highlight something that seems really obvious to me,

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Speaker 3: and that is that kids know what consent is. So

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Speaker 3: the big petition from Schanel contos, which I just applaud

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Speaker 3: her courage. I don't have anything negative to say about

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Speaker 3: what she's done here except for this idea that kids

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Speaker 3: need consent education. I reckon some probably do. But as

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Speaker 3: a rule, kids know what's right and wrong. Kids know

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Speaker 3: when somebody is consenting and when somebody is not. And

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Speaker 3: teenagers at a party they understand. Like they sat in

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Speaker 3: the same classroom with their let's say a boy, he's

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Speaker 3: sitting right next to the girl that now he's put

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Speaker 3: pressure on to do something non consensually, they know what

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Speaker 3: consent is. So I think that we've got to kind

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Speaker 3: of have a talk about that. But anyway, you're pretty

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Speaker 3: excited about this conversation as well, So what were your

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Speaker 3: questions for Megan, And we'll explore my concerns as well.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, we're having this conversation around consent education,

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Speaker 4: and you know it needs to start early and it

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Speaker 4: doesn't actually need to have anything to do with sex.

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Speaker 4: But you know, as you were talking, I'm thinking about

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Speaker 4: self control. We need to help our kids have self control.

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Speaker 4: I think, mean, what do you think about this idea?

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Speaker 4: You know, consent education, sex education? Does it happen in

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Speaker 4: our homes? Is it supposed to happen in the school classroom?

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Speaker 4: How do we help our children navigate this really really

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Speaker 4: scary space that we're dealing with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it is complicated in ways that you know,

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Speaker 2: the every high school, every school group of friends has

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Speaker 2: its own little climate and culture what we call social norms.

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Speaker 2: You know, what's right and what's wrong, what gets away

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Speaker 2: with you know, what people can get away with, what

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Speaker 2: people can't get away with, their own kind of policing

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Speaker 2: within each other. And I think there is a certain

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Speaker 2: you know, amount of teens know what consent is. But

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Speaker 2: the entitlement to girls and the way that their girls

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Speaker 2: can be disrespected in this sort of school environment is

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Speaker 2: what needs to be addressed.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, consent education is great and you can begin

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Speaker 2: those those you know lessons really young. I mean you

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Speaker 2: can talk about, Like one of the things I do

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Speaker 2: with my younger children is we talk about checking in

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Speaker 2: to make sure everybody's still having fun, because a lot

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Speaker 2: of times they have these make believe games and then

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Speaker 2: somebody's they don't like that they have to a certain character,

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Speaker 2: or their character got you know, blown up or moved

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Speaker 2: off the island or something, and so you have to check,

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Speaker 2: you know, to check in, are you you know, so

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Speaker 2: and so still having fun? And I'll find out, Oh, no,

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Speaker 2: so and so isn't having fun anymore. So maybe we

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Speaker 2: should play something different or figure something else out, and

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Speaker 2: then eventually, you know, applying that to your romantic relationship experiences.

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Speaker 2: I've always been confused as a researcher as to why

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Speaker 2: the Golden rule doesn't get applied to romance and sex. Why,

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Speaker 2: you know, treating others the way you would like to

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Speaker 2: be treated somehow get goes out the door when when

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Speaker 2: romantic sexual experiences are involved. So I think it's a

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Speaker 2: combination of parents talking to kids about consent, but also

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Speaker 2: you know, having those conversations where they're not blaming so

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Speaker 2: and so for being sexually assaulted. I think as parents,

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Speaker 2: if we comment on you know, so, and so as

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Speaker 2: behavior or what was she doing or what was she thinking?

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Speaker 2: That can send a message to our sons and our

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Speaker 2: son's friends that it's okay to disrespect someone that way,

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Speaker 2: or it's okay she was asking for it, and that changes,

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Speaker 2: you know, the climate or the current sort of culture

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Speaker 2: in that school that would permit.

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Speaker 5: You know, sexual violence to go on.

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Speaker 4: So, Megan, I've you know, I grew up in a

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Speaker 4: home where these kinds of conversations were were had openly,

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Speaker 4: and Justin and I have continued that within our own

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Speaker 4: home and we've always seen and felt like these kinds

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Speaker 4: of conversations are conversations that as parents we need to

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Speaker 4: be having our children. Obviously, with the climate that's where

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Speaker 4: we're sitting in now. In Australia in particular, there is

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Speaker 4: this you know, huge push for consent education in our

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Speaker 4: schools and for many years now sex education has actually

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Speaker 4: been part of the curriculum. But you know, is this

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Speaker 4: up to parents or is this up to the schools?

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Speaker 4: You know, where do we stand with this? And if

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Speaker 4: there is a need for this to happen in our

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Speaker 4: school system, how do we have a collaborative approach so

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Speaker 4: that we actually can safeguard our kids, right.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean where schools come in is that we

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Speaker 2: have to have safe environments for our kids to learn in.

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Speaker 2: And so if let's say, for girls, for example, if

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Speaker 2: she's getting teased because she's not wearing makeup, or she's

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Speaker 2: getting teased because she's wearing too much makeup, or you

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Speaker 2: can see her bra strap or you can see her

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Speaker 2: underwear or whatever, and a boy, let's say, a boy

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Speaker 2: is making fun of her, and if a teacher doesn't

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Speaker 2: then turn that boy in, like if there isn't a

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Speaker 2: consequence for that kind of harassment, then that's going to

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Speaker 2: feed a school climate that's going to be inducive of

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Speaker 2: more sexual harassment, in which research shows is then more

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Speaker 2: sexual violence.

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Speaker 5: And so schools do play.

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Speaker 2: A certain role in being able to or needing to

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Speaker 2: sort of assess what the climate is in terms of

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Speaker 2: gender relations and how safe do girls feel, you know,

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Speaker 2: at school, to not go to school in makeup or

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Speaker 2: you know, a certain outfit, or be able to raise

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Speaker 2: their hands and get the answers wrong without being teased

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Speaker 2: that kind.

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Speaker 5: Of stuff very much. You know, schools do.

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Speaker 2: Teachers need to be involved, and there does need to

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Speaker 2: be a certain amount of programming or at least discussion

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Speaker 2: of this kind of behavior isn't going to be tolerated.

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Speaker 2: But when it comes to you know, sexual consent and

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Speaker 2: in identifying what your values are and your boundaries are

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Speaker 2: in terms of kissing, touching, hugging, holding hands, you know.

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Speaker 5: Or you know, engaging in sexual behavior.

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Speaker 2: Without clothes on and things like that, all of those

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Speaker 2: kinds of conversations, hopefully you can guide as a parent

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Speaker 2: and help connect youth with books and things like that.

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Speaker 2: Those kinds of conversations and educational techniques are tough to

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Speaker 2: do in a school setting because it's embarrassing and nobody

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Speaker 2: is No child is going to want to sort of

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Speaker 2: brainstorm what their sexual values are in a school setting.

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Speaker 2: So that is that, you know, we would hope is

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Speaker 2: happening more at home, But the schools do play a

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Speaker 2: role in that. In the sexual violent climate essentially is

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Speaker 2: what academics call it. And so there does need to

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Speaker 2: be a certain amount of education and boundaries at the

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Speaker 2: school level in terms of what is and what's not

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Speaker 2: going to be tolerated.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it has been both. Unfortunately, I'm thinking about culture

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Speaker 3: and there's a there's an old definition of culture that's

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Speaker 3: been around for a long long time. That is that

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Speaker 3: culture is the collective behavior of the group. It's what

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Speaker 3: everyone does. But recently I was listening to Adam Grant

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Speaker 3: on a podcast. He was talking with a culture expert

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Speaker 3: who redefined culture in a really powerful way for me.

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Speaker 3: This person said, you define culture by the worst behavior

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Speaker 3: that is allowed. That is, when people are allowed to

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Speaker 3: do something and it goes I guess unpunished, it goes,

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Speaker 3: there's a level of acceptance for it. That is what

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Speaker 3: becomes the culture. And in this consent conversation, I think

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Speaker 3: that's a perfect description of what's going on. A certain

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Speaker 3: level of behavior has been allowed for far too long,

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Speaker 3: and it is far too it's way too far below

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Speaker 3: our community standards to be acceptable, and yet it has

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Speaker 3: been allowed. We're going to come back after the break

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Speaker 3: and have a talk about what we can do about

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Speaker 3: turning that culture around, particularly when it comes to what

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Speaker 3: has become a really painful for me at least and

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Speaker 3: maybe even unhealthy comversation about boys and masculinity.

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Speaker 5: That's up next.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Famili's podcast.

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Speaker 4: For a happier family, Try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 4: a happy family doesn't just happen details at happyfamilies dot

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Speaker 4: com dot au. It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast

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Speaker 4: for the time poor parent who just wants answers. Now

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Speaker 4: we are talking with Assistant Professor Megan Mass.

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Speaker 3: Meghan is from Michigan State University and research is in

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Speaker 3: adolescent sexuality and all things around kids, pornography, sex, consent

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Speaker 3: and all these sensitive issues that are so topical right

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Speaker 3: now in Australia.

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Speaker 4: It's hard to have these kinds of conversations Meghan without

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Speaker 4: there being I guess a negative connotation around boys and masculinity.

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Speaker 4: Can we just talk about that.

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Speaker 5: A little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to address the unhealthy aspects of masculinity

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Speaker 2: and then embrace the healthy ones. It's not that masculinity

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Speaker 2: is bad. I think masculinity has gotten a bad rap

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Speaker 2: because of the toxic, you know, unhealthy types, which is

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Speaker 2: being hostile. So you know, being violent is considered more

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Speaker 2: of a masculine trait than feminine and being sort of

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Speaker 2: controlling and that kind of thing has been is not healthy.

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Speaker 2: But you know, wanting to protect that's a great quality

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Speaker 2: to have, and you know, feeling feeling like you want

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Speaker 2: to to do the right thing or take care of

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Speaker 2: somebody that that can be a good quality and that

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Speaker 2: can help in these kinds of situations. And I do

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Speaker 2: think we need to give boys who are doing those

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Speaker 2: kinds of things more credit.

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Speaker 3: I guess the last question, though, I would have for you, Megan,

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Speaker 3: is the consent conversation is breathtakingly complicated. And I'll give

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Speaker 3: you an example. It's Tuesday, the second of whatever month

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Speaker 3: it is, and a girl sends a text message to

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Speaker 3: a boy. She's probably not sending a text message, she's

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Speaker 3: probably using Snapchat or she's using Instagram or whatever it is,

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Speaker 3: but she sends some sort of an instant message to

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Speaker 3: a boy and it's pretty flirty. And over the next

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Speaker 3: three or four weeks, they flirt backwards and forwards over

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Speaker 3: their instant messaging service, and they become increasingly provocative and

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Speaker 3: increasingly bold in the things that they're saying to each other.

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Speaker 3: And she's kind of saying, Hey, you know that party

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Speaker 3: that's coming up on the twenty eighth, I'm going to

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Speaker 3: be there and I plan on being there with you.

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Speaker 3: And he's getting really excited, and he's talking to all

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Speaker 3: his mates about it, and she's talking to all of

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Speaker 3: her girlfriends about it. Then the party arrives on the

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Speaker 3: twenty eighth. I'm assuming it's a weekend. I haven't done

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Speaker 3: the maths, but you get through the idea. They show

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Speaker 3: up at the party and there's alcohol there, and she's

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Speaker 3: consuming a whole lot of alcohol, and he's getting pretty

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Speaker 3: well blotto as well. And sometime around about eleven eleven

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Speaker 3: thirty at night, once everybody's sort of really really drunk

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Speaker 3: and really really partying. Music's blaring and the boys have

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Speaker 3: been saying, come on, man, you got to do it,

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Speaker 3: you got to do it. And the girls are saying,

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Speaker 3: do you really like him? I think he's really into you.

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Speaker 3: You said that you're really into him, And there's all

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Speaker 3: this pressure from the friends, and next thing you know,

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Speaker 3: they end up in a bedroom together. Maybe they've not

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Speaker 3: just had alcohol, maybe there's been some cannabis, or maybe

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Speaker 3: there's been some pills that they've popped. So there's a

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Speaker 3: whole lot of drugs and alcohol mixing, with a whole

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Speaker 3: lot of pressure from friends mixing, and with a whole

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Speaker 3: lot of sexual tensions built up over the last four

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Speaker 3: or five weeks of instant messaging and saying to each other,

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Speaker 3: you turn me on so much now they're in the

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Speaker 3: bedroom together, and he starts to make his move, and

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Speaker 3: in that moment, she freezes. She panics. She says, I

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Speaker 3: don't think I'm ready for this in that state. And

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Speaker 3: I'm not defending a boy here for doing the wrong thing,

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Speaker 3: but in that state, I think any rational adult can

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Speaker 3: see that this is going to be a confusing moment

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Speaker 3: where something could go very wrong.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, of course, I mean anytime. I mean, and

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Speaker 5: this is where.

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Speaker 2: It is really tough because as soon as and alcohol

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Speaker 2: are involved, which they are in eighty percent of sexual

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Speaker 2: violence cases, but you know, alcohol can also be a

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Speaker 2: part of a consensual sex, you know, among married people.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's it does us a disservice

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Speaker 2: to say that if there's you know, one drink has had,

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Speaker 2: then it's non consensual sex. That means, you know, almost

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Speaker 2: everybody has been a rape victim then, and that's certainly

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Speaker 2: not the case. So there's there's some research that's trying

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Speaker 2: to get at what blood alcohol level could can you

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Speaker 2: really consent or what have you. But I think I

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Speaker 2: think if we focus back, you know, if we rewind

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Speaker 2: to that little kid who were trying to teach to

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Speaker 2: check in with somebody.

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Speaker 5: You know, we we.

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Speaker 2: Rewind to that moment where we're trying to teach our

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Speaker 2: boys that women are human beings who do want to

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Speaker 2: have sex, who have sexual feelings, who are entitled to

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Speaker 2: safety and are entitled to pleasure, that they're human beings,

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Speaker 2: are not just these pretty objects where you need to

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Speaker 2: work really hard to sort of own or consume or

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Speaker 2: be her first or whatever, you know, making the human

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Speaker 2: out of it. Really focusing on the humanity of it all,

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Speaker 2: I think can prevent situations like that from happening in

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Speaker 2: the first place, and could perhaps socialize people so much

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Speaker 2: that even if they are drunk or even if they

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Speaker 2: are high, those tendencies to be a decent human being

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Speaker 2: and to check in with each other, and to be loving,

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Speaker 2: and to go slow and to not give a flying

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Speaker 2: flying whatever about what their friends think. You know, those

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Speaker 2: situations are going to be less confusing.

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Speaker 5: That's what we would hope, Megan.

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Speaker 3: This has been such a valuable contribution to what is

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Speaker 3: an ongoing conversation in a straggling around the world about

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Speaker 3: this topic. Carlie takeo message can.

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Speaker 4: Sent conversations need to start young with our kids, you know, hugs, tickles, friends, family.

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Speaker 4: I think it's really important that we empower our children

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Speaker 4: to you know, be able to make decisions around what

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Speaker 4: feels right to them. But consense also a really complicated conversation.

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Speaker 4: There is so much involved in it, and we need

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Speaker 4: to you know, really be able to work through that

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Speaker 4: with our children.

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Speaker 3: It is complicated, and yet in the same breath, it's

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Speaker 3: so simple. Treat other people nicely, be civil like. It's

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Speaker 3: actually that simple, and yet it is so complex anything else.

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Speaker 4: And I just I think it's really important. You know,

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Speaker 4: we've been talking about how there's just so much negative

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Speaker 4: talk around boys in particular and masculinity, and it's important

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Speaker 4: for us to kind of point out the good because

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Speaker 4: there is so much good. I grew up, you know,

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Speaker 4: my memories of the boys that I hung out with,

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Speaker 4: they were good boys and they treated me with respect.

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Speaker 4: I don't really have any negative experiences from my forty

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Speaker 4: plus years of life of dealing with men. They have

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Speaker 4: been respectful and have treated me with you know, love

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Speaker 4: and kindness and compassion. And we need our girls to

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Speaker 4: know that not everyone is bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so glad that you said that, especially since

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Speaker 3: you're married to me. We hope that you've enjoyed the podcast, Megan,

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Speaker 3: it's been a delight to have you on. Thank you

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Speaker 3: so much for being so generous with your time and expertise.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun

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Speaker 5: to talk with you.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

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Speaker 3: Bridge Media, and our executive producer is Craig Bruce. If

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Speaker 3: you'd like more info about consent, you can visit happyfamilies

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Speaker 3: dot com dot you a whole lot more info coming

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Speaker 3: up there with some of the work that I'm doing

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Speaker 3: on this particular topic, and of course to stay in

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Speaker 3: touch with making your family happy. You can get all

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Speaker 3: the info about our Happy Families memberships also at happy

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Speaker 3: families dot com dot a you