1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: We've had a lot of discussion over the last twenty 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: four hours about raising the age of criminal responsibility and 3 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: what it's going to mean. But I think that a 4 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: lot of people are wondering what it's going to mean 5 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: to the Northern Territory Police Force, who do, indeed, you know, 6 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: have to deal with the issues of crime that we 7 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: experience each and every day. Now we know the Northern 8 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: Territory Police Association have come out and said that they 9 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: staunchly oppose the Labor governments proposed legislation to raise the 10 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: age of criminal responsibility. Northern Territory Police Association Senior Vice 11 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: President Lisa Bayless joins me on the line. Good morning 12 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: to you, Lisa, Good morning Katie, Lisa, pretty strong words, 13 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: staunchly opposing the proposed legislation. 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 2: Why look, we see that this legislative reform, it's not 15 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 2: going to stop the crimes being committed by youth defenders. 16 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: It simply means that they're not going to be held accountable. 17 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: And so what do you think is going to happen? 18 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 1: I mean, like from that real sort of so that 19 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: real operational level, what do you think's going to happen? Say, 20 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: if we've got you know, kids that are under the 21 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: age of twelve out on the streets, they've engaged in 22 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: a break in. What will be the reaction or what 23 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: will be the operational following on from the police. 24 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, obviously we're still going to be attending 25 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: jobs that were crimes being committed, which is what the 26 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 2: expectation is the people ring the police we attend. But 27 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 2: the reality is, if you've got a child that's under 28 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 2: the age of twelve that's committing offenses and there's no 29 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 2: criminal criminality around it, our hands are going to be tied. 30 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: We're not going to be able to arrest the children. 31 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 2: We're going to have victims who are going to be 32 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: quite distressed about the fact that we've got ongoing crimes 33 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 2: happening and no one been HOWD accountable. And I look 34 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 2: at the government saying that we're going to have these 35 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: programs in place that are going to look at early 36 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: intervention and changing things. Well, I would say to the 37 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: government that probably they might need to make sure those 38 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 2: programs are working first if they even consider these changes. 39 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was exactly the discussion that we're having during 40 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: the week. That was a bit earlier this morning. I 41 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: look the Attorney General Chancey Paikin said that he would 42 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: give that assurance to the community that, you know, the 43 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: legislation would not be passed until he was satisfied that 44 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: there were those programs in place. But Lisa, you know, 45 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: do we need a bit of of you know, evidence 46 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: that they're programs that are going to work first? 47 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: Yeah? Look, absolutely, Katie. I think we would like to 48 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 2: see some KPIs on the these proposed programs and how 49 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: they actually how they're successful. I mean, we have programs 50 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: in place now, we have used di version, and we 51 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: have children that are that are quite young that go 52 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 2: through those programs, and there is there is a there 53 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: is success with some of those programs, which is which 54 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: is fantastic, and it diverts children away from the criminal 55 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: justice system. Jo, I don't understand. We've got we've got 56 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 2: mechanisms in place right now that allow for that. If 57 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 2: you simply remove push the age up and say that 58 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 2: these children are no longer criminally responsible for their behavior, 59 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 2: you're actually not going to address the offending that they're doing. 60 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: The community is not going to be safer for these changes, 61 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: and I know it's really uncomfortable as a community to 62 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: acknowledge that we've got children that are as young as 63 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: nine and ten and eleven years of age who are 64 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: committing serious criminal offending. They're committing aggravated robberies, they're committing 65 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: aggravated assaults. And unless we actually think about what's important 66 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 2: to the community to protect the community, we've got victims, 67 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 2: We've got the harm that's done to them. What about 68 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 2: those people? What about being able to go out safely 69 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: and know that you're not going to be robbed, You're 70 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: not going to be assaulted by children at this age. 71 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: And it is uncomfortable, but we need to acknowledge that 72 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: the criminal justice system provides support for four offenders to 73 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: actually be diverted away from going into detention, but it 74 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 2: also provides consequences for them to acknowledge the harm that 75 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: they've done. And I know around the use diversion a 76 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: whole there's a whole range of measures around restorative justice 77 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: to bring those children into a place to acknowledge the 78 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: things that they've done is wrong, and also to face 79 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: their victims, to face the community and hopefully change their behavior. 80 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 2: But by simply saying that you're under the age of 81 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: twelve and you don't have to accept responsibility for your behavior. 82 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: That is not the way that the community expects the 83 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 2: government to address our crime problem. Put these they're talking about, 84 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 2: these early intervention programs. Let's see these programs get established. 85 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: They've been in government for six years. We would expect 86 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: that these changes around providing programs and support for youth 87 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: offending should have been done a lot sooner. But to 88 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: simply change the legislation and say, oh, we're going to 89 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: develop these programs, well, let's develop these programs. And much 90 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: like anyone in the community, we don't want to see 91 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: the Police Association, we don't want to see youth being 92 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 2: locked up, but we also don't want to see our 93 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 2: community being exposed to ongoing affairs violent offenders. There actually 94 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: needs to be consequences for that behavior. 95 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: Lisa, what's been the reaction from police over the last 96 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: twenty four hours. So officers, those rank and file officers, 97 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: what are they saying to the Police Association. 98 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 2: They're actually quite upset because dealing with the intensive labor 99 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 2: around when you go and attend a job with a 100 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 2: youth and a youth is taken into custody by police, 101 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: it's actually quite a labor intensive role that we have 102 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: we can't. Usually we don't take them into the watchhouse. 103 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: We have to take them to a responsible adult. If 104 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 2: we don't have a responsible adult available, we have to 105 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: take them to the care of territory families. And often 106 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: the children that are out committing offending in the middle 107 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 2: of the night, we have a lot of difficulty getting 108 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: in touch with people from territory families. And then the 109 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 2: time around that whole process, you eventually might get them 110 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: to a place of safety, you leave them in the 111 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 2: care of someone and you drive away. And then often 112 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: these children they absconded and they go somewhere else again 113 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: and police get caught again. So in those circumstances, you're 114 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 2: actually not able to protect the communities. You've got children 115 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: that are continually continually engaging in that kind of behavior, 116 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 2: criminal behavior, and we're not talking any social behavior. I'm 117 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: not talking about kids who are maybe you know, running 118 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: around the streets and swearing and you know, misbehaving in 119 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: that sense. We're talking about children who are breaking into 120 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 2: into properties, or they're they're holding service station attendance up, 121 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: or they're they're resulting people randomly on the street. That's 122 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: the kind of offending that we're talking about. 123 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: So do you feel as though it's not only going 124 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,559 Speaker 1: to create difficulties for the territory police, but it's also 125 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: going to waste their time? 126 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and we haven't. The difficulty is is often with 127 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: these sorts of proposed changes, there's no detail about how 128 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: that's actually going to play out the police and even 129 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: though we've been told police will still be investigating crime. Absolutely, 130 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 2: but you know, you think about if police are a 131 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: called to a job and let's say to a school 132 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 2: and you've got a child who's maybe eleven years old 133 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: and they've assaulted another child in the school who assaulted 134 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: a teacher. Really, if they're not criminally responsible for their behavior, 135 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 2: it's not a crime and it shouldn't be police attending 136 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: because we're actually not going to be taking any action 137 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: in that sense. We might take a statement from the victim, 138 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: but there's no crime that's been committed, and I'd be saying, 139 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: ring territory families, it shouldn't be police attending. 140 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: And so, Lisa, is that where we're at now that realistically, 141 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: if this passes that you know that territory families are 142 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: going to have to attend some of these incidents rather 143 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: than the police. 144 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: Well, if there's no crime being committed, it's not the 145 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: responsibility of police. Wow. 146 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: I mean it opens up a real different discussion, doesn't it, 147 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: Because if, like you've said, and like he's you know, 148 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: the government said, if they're no longer criminally responsible, so 149 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: they're no longer deemed to be committing a crime, then 150 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: it's not up to the police to deal with it, 151 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: is what you're saying. 152 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: Well, it's pretty much pretty much on par I mean, 153 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: it's like anything you call the police, we usually pick 154 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: up the slack for everything. Police will attend. But if 155 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: you've got an eleven year old committing who's committed an offense, 156 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: well it's not an offense anymore. I'm sorry, but we 157 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: can't do anything ring territory families or ring ring the 158 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: child's parent and get them to attend. 159 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: Wow. How do you think this is all going to 160 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: play out within the community, Lisa? 161 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 2: Look, I think it's like everyone who's scratching their head thinking, 162 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 2: how is this going to enhance community safety? How is 163 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 2: this going to improve what we're currently saying. And again, 164 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: I understand the concept around we don't want to see 165 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 2: children in custody. I understand that everyone everyone feels the same. 166 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 2: But if you've got serious offending that's occurring when I'm 167 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 2: talking violent crimes where we've aggravated assaults, aggravat to the 168 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: robberies that these children this age are committing it. What 169 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 2: happens in a couple of years time if we push 170 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: the age down again, What if it suddenly we've got 171 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 2: eight year olds that are doing it? And I'm my 172 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: concern around raising the age is that that age group 173 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: between beteen ten and twelve who currently there are consequences, 174 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: we're going to say there's no more consequences. We're probably 175 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: going to be expanding who's actually going to be committing 176 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: crimes because the kids, they tell police, now, there's nothing 177 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: you can do. You can't touch us where you know 178 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: we're under we're under the age of twelve. They say 179 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: that to police, Now you can't touch as I'm under 180 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: the age of ten, I'm under the age of fourteen, 181 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: and we know that the consequences in the courts. Currently 182 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 2: there is a diversion process that a lot of these 183 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: children go through and they know there's no consequences when 184 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 2: I go through that process, and the programs that should 185 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 2: be you know that are offered to the children. It's 186 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: meant we're meant to see a change happening, but we 187 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 2: actually haven't. We've seen we've seen the age of serious 188 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 2: offending has actually been lowered, and it's quite concerning as 189 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 2: a community. 190 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: Lisa, I think what you're saying this morning is going 191 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: to resonate with a lot of people. They'll be feeling 192 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: the same way as what our police are feeling. And 193 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: the fact that, from what you've said, police have contacted you, 194 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: they're pretty upset by what's happened. Yeah, I think there's 195 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: a lot more discussion to be had in this space, I. 196 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: Think, so, Okatie, Yeah, yeah, definitely. 197 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: Lisa, thanks so much for your time this morning. I 198 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: really appreciate it. 199 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: No, thank you can thank you.