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Speaker 1: Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the Daily OS. My name

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Speaker 1: is Sam Kazlowski. I am joined by Zara Seidler, the

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Speaker 1: co founder of the Daily Os. It is Wednesday, the

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Speaker 1: twenty third of February. Zara, this is a critical period

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Speaker 1: for world peace. Tell us what we need to know

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Speaker 1: about Russia and Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: Yesterday we woke up to news that Russian President Vladimir

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Speaker 2: Pudin had announced he was recognizing two breakaway regions in

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Speaker 2: eastern Ukraine as independent sovereign territories. The Russian government subsequently

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Speaker 2: announced that Russian troops were sent to both of these

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Speaker 2: regions to perform and I quote peacekeeping functions.

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Speaker 1: We also found out yesterday that Australian diplomatic staff in

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Speaker 1: the Ukraine city of Leviv were evacuated to Poland and

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Speaker 1: Romania amid these rising tensions. Foreign Minister Maurice Paines said

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Speaker 1: the decision was due to the increased risk within the area.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot happening with this story. Check out our

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Speaker 1: instagram for the latest developments.

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Speaker 2: Columbia's Constitutional Court has voted to decriminalize abortion in the

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Speaker 2: first twenty four weeks of pregnancy. The court's ruling was

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Speaker 2: backed by five out of nine judges and now means

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Speaker 2: individuals can seek an abortion without risking prosecution.

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Speaker 1: And today's good news, researchers from Australia's National Science Agency,

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Speaker 1: the CSIRO, have developed a technique that could end the

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Speaker 1: need to refrigerate vaccines. This is a particular issue with

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Speaker 1: mRNA vaccines and it's hoped that the technique could allow

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Speaker 1: for further vaccine access in rural communities, as well as

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Speaker 1: developing nations. For today's deep dive, I am joined by

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Speaker 1: political journalists at the Zaleels Billy Fitzsimon's Billy, You've got

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Speaker 1: a special guest on the podcast this morning.

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Speaker 3: Yes, today I am interviewing Fear and a Pattern. She

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Speaker 3: is an independent, she's on the crossbench in Victoria's upper

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Speaker 3: House and today she is introducing a bill to decriminalize

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Speaker 3: all drugs in Victoria. It's a big bill and it

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Speaker 3: will make a lot of news, so I wanted to

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Speaker 3: ask her more about it. Fiona Paten, thank you so

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Speaker 3: much for joining us today. You're introducing a bill to

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Speaker 3: decriminalize illegal drugs. In simple terms, can you explain exactly

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Speaker 3: what it is that you want to happen?

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Speaker 4: It probably isn't as good as it sounds. So what

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Speaker 4: we're talking about is really trying to treat drug use

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Speaker 4: as a health issue. So this means that if someone

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Speaker 4: is caught by the police with a small quantity of

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Speaker 4: drugs or is caught using drugs, then instead of being

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Speaker 4: arrested and going through the court process, they will be

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Speaker 4: given a notice where they will need to contact someone

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Speaker 4: for education or in certain circumstances, to access treatment. So again,

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Speaker 4: it's just taking drug use out of our criminal system

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Speaker 4: and putting it back where it belongs in the health system.

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Speaker 3: So it's not treating it as a criminal issue, it's

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Speaker 3: treating it as a health issue. Is that right?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. So you know, much like I guess

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Speaker 4: if you use alcohol. Now it's not illegal to use alcohol,

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Speaker 4: but if you have a problem with alcohol, then we

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Speaker 4: treat it as a health issue and we try and

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Speaker 4: help you with treatment or counseling or whatever that might be.

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Speaker 5: And we just think every other drug should be treated

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Speaker 5: like that.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't mean you're going to be able to buy

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Speaker 4: drugs at your local shop.

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Speaker 3: In this bill that you're introducing, are you talking about

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Speaker 3: all illegal drugs?

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Speaker 5: Like?

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Speaker 3: Are you including ice?

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Speaker 4: In that we know that most people who are arrested

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Speaker 4: for the useful possession of drugs, not just in Victoria

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Speaker 4: but around Australia, it's for cannabis. However, those that probably

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Speaker 4: need the most help are those that have got a

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Speaker 4: dependence on methanphetamine, or ice or heroine, and those are

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Speaker 4: the people probably least likely to get help. They're the

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Speaker 4: ones that will have been arrested more than once and

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Speaker 4: quite often will end up in the criminal justice system

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Speaker 4: which doesn't address their dependence on drugs.

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Speaker 3: So this bill is about harm minimization, as I am

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Speaker 3: understand it. Can you talk about what this harm minimization

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Speaker 3: process would actually look like in practice.

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Speaker 4: We know that whilst certainly you know drugs are not

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Speaker 4: harm less, we know that we know that the vast

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Speaker 4: majority of people who do use drugs actually don't have

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Speaker 4: a problem with them. We know that they use them recreationally,

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Speaker 4: they use them responsibly. But if they end up with

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Speaker 4: a criminal record or end up going through the court system,

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Speaker 4: that can have an extraordinary impact on their work. It

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Speaker 4: can also restrict how they can travel, It can cause

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Speaker 4: problems with housing with family, so we want to minimize that.

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Speaker 4: We also know that the idea of prohibition and just

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Speaker 4: say no has never worked. So how about if someone

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Speaker 4: is using substances, that we talk to them about how

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Speaker 4: to do that safely, or about the inherent risks with

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Speaker 4: certain drugs, or about the inherent risk with mixing certain drugs.

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Speaker 4: So I think it's about providing that education and where needed,

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Speaker 4: that treatment and pathways into treatment. If someone's picked up early,

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Speaker 4: so say a young person who might be CouchSurfing, might

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Speaker 4: be using more drugs than they have in the past

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Speaker 4: generally just to deal with the stuff that's going on

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Speaker 4: in their lives. This could provide an early intervention. This

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Speaker 4: would be a check in with that person before their

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Speaker 4: drug use became problematic. So it would be a time

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Speaker 4: to kind of have that intervention and possibly change someone's trajectory.

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Speaker 3: And sorry, I just want to be clear. How would

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Speaker 3: it do that, Like, how would authorities or how would

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Speaker 3: the health system come across these people at the moment.

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Speaker 4: So, the police arrest twenty six thousand people a year

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Speaker 4: in Victoria alone for using or possessing drugs. If that

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Speaker 4: person was picked up by the police for being a

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Speaker 4: possession or use they would be given a notice. That

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Speaker 4: notice would require them to contact the service and that

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Speaker 4: service would then provide a kind of a triage to

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Speaker 4: see what type of assistance that person needs, whether it's looked.

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Speaker 4: It might be a little bit of education, it might

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Speaker 4: be a health intervention through counseling, it might be a

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Speaker 4: pathway into a treatment program if needed, and that person

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Speaker 4: will be required to undertake whatever the direction in that

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Speaker 4: notice says.

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Speaker 3: Right so, and just to be clear, if a person

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Speaker 3: was caught using drugs, they could still come into contact

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Speaker 3: with police, but instead of police referring them to the courts,

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Speaker 3: the police would refer them to the health system. Is

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Speaker 3: that right?

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Speaker 4: That's exactly right, and we've seen this. I mean police

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Speaker 4: are already doing this in certain circumstances and around Australia

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Speaker 4: we have drug diversion programs, but they vary and quite

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Speaker 4: often it depends on where you live, which police officers

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Speaker 4: stops or really, sadly, probably you know what color you

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Speaker 4: skin is.

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Speaker 3: How much evidence is there that decriminalizing drugs will lead

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Speaker 3: to a healthier population A lot.

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Speaker 4: There is a lot of evidence, and we can look

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Speaker 4: at jurisdictions like Portugal, which twenty one years ago did this.

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Speaker 4: We have an overdose rate in Australia that is higher

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Speaker 4: than our roadtel. More people die from accidental overdoses of

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Speaker 4: drugs than they die in car accidents. In Portugal they

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Speaker 4: had two overdose deaths last year, so they are able

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Speaker 4: to really intervene early and provide a pathway to assistance,

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Speaker 4: particularly for those that have problematic drug use. And we

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Speaker 4: know that problematic drug use is quite often connected to

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Speaker 4: mental health, to homelessness, to trauma, to a whole range

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Speaker 4: of issues. So Portugal has led the way in this.

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Speaker 4: We've seen other jurisdictions around the world. I think there's

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Speaker 4: at least twenty countries that have been doing this. It

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Speaker 4: doesn't necessarily stop people from taking drugs, but what it

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Speaker 4: does do is it stops some of the harm from

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Speaker 4: doing that. It takes them onto a health intervention instead

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Speaker 4: of locking someone up for having a dependence on a drug.

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Speaker 3: You said that it probably doesn't stop people from taking drugs.

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Speaker 3: Some critics would argue that legalizing drugs could actually encourage

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Speaker 3: more people to take drugs. What do you say to that.

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Speaker 5: The evidence doesn't show that.

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Speaker 4: In fact, you know, I'd love someone to do a

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Speaker 4: poll on how many people didn't take drugs because they

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Speaker 4: were illegal, and if they were legal, they would take

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Speaker 4: drugs because all the evidence says that even if you

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Speaker 4: legalized it, people who don't use them won't use them.

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Speaker 5: The law is not relevant to that.

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Speaker 4: But what we found in jurisdictions like Portugal where they

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Speaker 4: have decriminalized, they have some of the lowest levels of

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Speaker 4: drug use in Europe. That's not to say that people

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Speaker 4: aren't using it, but they're not using it at greater

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Speaker 4: levels from countries that have really draconian levels. In fact, Australia,

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Speaker 4: with some of the more draconian drug laws, we have

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Speaker 4: some of the highest drug use in the world. So

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Speaker 4: our laws are not working.

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Speaker 3: Just lastly, the Victorian government has said that it doesn't

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Speaker 3: plan to decriminalize drugs, so it seems highly unlikely that

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Speaker 3: this will pass. Can you explain to our audience what

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Speaker 3: is the point of introducing a bill if it will

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Speaker 3: almost certainly be voted down.

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Speaker 5: Provide some examples.

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Speaker 4: I introduced a bill to provide safe access zones around

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Speaker 4: an abortion clinic. The government didn't support that bill. Guess what,

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Speaker 4: two years later we had a bill for safe access zones.

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Speaker 4: I introduced a bill to establish Victoria's first supervised injecting room.

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Speaker 4: The government didn't support that bill. Guess what, we have

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Speaker 4: a supervised injecting room. So what it does is it

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Speaker 4: starts that process. It brings people to the tape, It

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Speaker 4: shows the support that we have for this. Now I'm

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Speaker 4: actually still I've got two weeks to convince the government.

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Speaker 4: We're pulling out all stops to actually get the government

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Speaker 4: to make a commitment to go down this path, because

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Speaker 4: the evidence shows that the experts agree. In fact, it's

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Speaker 4: hard to find an expert that doesn't think that decriminalization

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Speaker 4: of a small quantity of drugs or a use of

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Speaker 4: drugs is not the.

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Speaker 5: Best way forward.

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Speaker 4: You know, police are already diverting, police are already saying

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Speaker 4: we should be treating drug use as a health issue,

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Speaker 4: but we need to provide them with the tools to

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Speaker 4: do that. So, yes, it does start the conversation. I'm

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Speaker 4: hopeful that something might happen and we might see the

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Speaker 4: bill pass, but I think more importantly what I want

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Speaker 4: is a commitment that.

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Speaker 5: We will work towards doing something differently.

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Speaker 3: So you feel optimistic that even if it didn't pass

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Speaker 3: this time, it would start a conversation that you believe

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Speaker 3: the state government needs to have.

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Speaker 5: We decriminalize sex work the other week.

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Speaker 4: Now, that's been a campaign that I've been running for

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Speaker 4: a long time, so I hope it doesn't take as

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Speaker 4: long as it took us to decriminalize sex work here

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Speaker 4: in Victoria. However, this is a policy whose time is ready.

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Speaker 4: This is a policy where we know that what we're

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Speaker 4: doing now isn't working, so we should not continue to

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Speaker 4: do something that isn't working and expect a different result.

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Speaker 4: The time is ready for this, and I hope that

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Speaker 4: we can get bipartisan support. It needs support from both sides,

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Speaker 4: and from an economic perspective, it doesn't make any sense

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Speaker 4: sending someone to jail for having a drug issue when

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Speaker 4: the far cheaper option is to provide counseling or treatment.

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Speaker 3: Fear and a paden. Thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 3: I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: Thanks Billy,