WEBVTT - Police Failure while Mob Rally 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:06.000 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:08.400 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.040 It was absolute shambles, to tell you the truth, just 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:12.480 absolutely really pallant. 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:15.120 Blood on his clothing the day after the alleged attemp. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:16.880 A Shelley mud bank and it fits through a river. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.040 Basically, I think most of the people are used to 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:20.520 me are good people. 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.200 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:26.279 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.800 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pulled back the 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.360 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.160 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.520 Amy Maguire and. 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:42.040 I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.400 Support Service. And a warning, this series contains the names 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:50.760 of deceased peoples and has distressing content that might upset 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:51.919 some listeners. 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.760 Today, I'm pleased to announce that my government is going 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:02.160 to inject two hundred million dollars into this region for 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:08.039 the expansion of the Capricornia Correctional Center. What this means 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:12.640 is jobs, jobs, and more jobs. They'll be over one 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.240 hundred jobs a year for the next five years in 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:22.880 the construction and seventy ongoing operational jobs. This capital injection 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:28.080 is important. We could have chosen to expand a correctional 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.800 facility in the southeast of our state, but we know 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.880 the regions need the jobs and they need these construction 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:40.160 jobs now. I have asked the Minister for Corrective Services, 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:45.319 Mark Ryan, to bring forward construction on this project to 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.680 start this year. He is going to pull out all 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.400 stops to ensure that we can hit the ground running 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:54.080 when it comes to this project. 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.240 That was Queensland Premier Anastasia Palaschet who was in Rackampton 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.200 earlier this week and announced it two hundred million dollar 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:05.720 expansion of the Capricorni a correctional facility here in Rockampden, 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:08.959 now Martin. This is actually the jail that Kevin Henry 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.040 has spent the majority of a sentence, isn't it. 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:12.359 That's right. 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.840 You spent a little bit of time down in southern Queensland, 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:18.960 but for the most part for more than twenty five years, 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:23.320 this is the prison where he's been incarcerated and to 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:28.120 see their attention turn to it this week is quite disturbing, 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:32.600 to be honest, when we see that there's no real 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:37.040 effort in any of what's been announced to talk about rehabilitation, 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:42.280 why the prison numbers may be growing, any of those 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:45.560 sort of issues. It's just all the talk is build 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:47.120 a bigger prison, and it. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.480 Seems to be framed around selling it to the local 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:53.880 population because of job creation. So, I mean, it seems 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.760 even worse than that in the way that they're using 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.560 this narrative to frame it just around jobs rather than 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.359 rehabilitation or the facts that we need to fundamentally look 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:05.560 at our imprisonment rates. 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.359 Well, that's exactly right, and I think the biggest irony 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.760 in all of this is the selling point is that 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.920 it will create one hundred and seventy jobs, but it 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.200 will also create one hundred and sixty four new cells. 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.880 So we've basically got a one to one ratio. For 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:25.720 every new job they're creating, they're going to be locking 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.880 up one more person. And I think that's a pretty 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:33.400 appalling state of affairs when a government is looking to 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:38.120 sell a job's package to a regional community, but the 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.160 end result is that the exact same number of people 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.760 will end up in prison. Now, the prison is slightly 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:50.560 over capacity at the moment, but we know there's people 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.560 like Kevin Henry, who simply don't belong in that prison. 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.760 And I'm sure there's others who either have not had 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:01.160 their parole granted when they should have, who are perhaps 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:06.360 on remand when they shouldn't be. So we've had no 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:11.800 look at why the prison is overpopulated at present. Instead, 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.440 they're just going to add on new cells. And when 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.720 you add one hundred and sixty four new cells, you 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.080 better believe the aim will be to fill them. And 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:28.760 I think that is deeply problematic. That jails don't sit empty. 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:33.039 They're generally always overcrowded if they're new, and so the 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:38.080 concern is will judges in the area start sending people 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:42.240 to prison who have no place in the prison system. 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.760 It's also very interesting when you consider that a lot 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.360 of what we're talking about on the current podcast actually 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:53.200 revolves around what was happening in rock Hampden in the nineties, 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.040 and around that time there was a lot of bad 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.960 things happening at Rockampton Jail. It was often in the media, 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.279 but it shows that nothing much has changed over the 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:05.960 twenty five years that Kevin Henry has been imprisoned, and 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:10.120 that seems to be very scary. Would you agree Mardin Absolutely. 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:13.400 I think that those issues were raised. As you say, 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:16.520 at the time, it was well known of the many 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:21.880 problems that were going on. We had people spending a 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:26.280 long time in the watchhouse. We know of one particular 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:29.039 woman at the time who spent five months in the 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:33.840 watchhouse because there was no room in a prison and 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:38.920 she was in with males, no access really to separate 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:43.120 showering facilities at the prison itself. We had a lot 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:47.080 of issues and there's been no attempt to address that 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:51.080 a quarter of a century ago, and so rather than 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:55.720 address the underlying problems, we're just going back to an 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:59.359 issue of expanding the prisons. And I think we only 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.760 need to look America as to what happens when you 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:06.000 build bigger prisons, you end up with the biggest prison 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:07.200 population on Earth. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:09.159 I was just going to compare it to your work 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.120 in America, because obviously there's a real problem around the 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.920 prison industrial complex over there is things like this, Announcements 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.359 like this show that it's very much the same in 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.520 Queensland and around the country, that we're becoming more and 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:23.920 more like America. 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:27.839 I think that's absolutely right, and I think the way 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.000 it was framed in the selling of it to the public, 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.360 that this was a major job announcement. That was the 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:42.039 headline on the press release. That it says nothing about corrections, rehabilitation, 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:49.800 reducing crime rates, assisting victims. It's purely about creating jobs 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:54.520 to lock people up. And that is that prison industrial complex, 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.560 is that this is the creation of money on the 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:02.679 back of jailing people, many of whom don't belong in prison. 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:08.400 One thing we know for sure comparing Australia and America 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:15.160 is that minorities, those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and are disadvantaged. 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:20.680 And in Australia that is absolutely Aboriginal people will always 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:25.640 be overrepresented in the prison population. So it's fair to 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:29.200 say that with one hundred and sixty four new cells 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:34.920 being created, at least eighty of those people will be 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:40.240 Aboriginal people. And right now we have to remember that 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.600 these are people who have not yet committed a crime. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.600 So if they're to commit a crime, it's maybe a 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:53.920 very small offense. The pressure will beyond judges to fill 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:58.680 these cells. Now people will say, well, no, judges will 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.680 do the right thing, and we heard the premiere announce 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.240 that it'll be up to the judges as to where 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:08.400 they send people, but we know that's just not how 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:13.120 it works. And we see in America where judges across 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:17.960 the country were under quite severe pressure to fill the 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:23.040 jails as fast as possible because those jobs, those one 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:27.680 hundred and seventy jobs that are supposedly being created, they 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:32.960 don't exist unless there's people too secure. A prison is 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.319 much like a hotel, but it's got one hundred percent occupancy, 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:43.160 and those jobs exist because there's people inside who need 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:49.520 cooking for, cleaning for, and predominantly guarding. So I think 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:53.560 this is a very worrying development. And again, as you 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:57.120 opened with, it goes back to the issue that twenty 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.559 five years later, no attempt is being made to rectify 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:05.679 any of the problems that exist. In fact, they've all 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:11.280 been ignored to make some money and sell what is 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:16.280 obviously an election pitch to the people of Rockhampton, which 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.679 is one hundred and seventy jobs, without a single mention 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.320 of the damage it'll do to the area. 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.520 So you did mention the issue of parole, and a 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.720 lot of people probably still in prison in rock Hampden 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:34.080 who've had their par knocked that, particularly original people we've 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.760 mentioned before on this podcast that we're currently waiting for 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.800 the outcome of Kevin's own parole date. Can you talk 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.640 a little bit about that what we're waiting on. 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:44.240 That's right. 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:46.920 So we're waiting on a decision from the parole board 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:52.040 as to whether Kevin will be granted parole, and that 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:57.800 depends on an application that was filed about three weeks ago. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.240 The decision will either come back in favor of parole 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:07.760 that we'll see Kevin moved into the community with a 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:13.000 transition period, or there'll be a knockback, and that will 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.520 mean that Kevin will spend further time in prison. And 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:21.160 I think connecting it back to the issue of what's 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:25.000 happening at Rockhampton Prison is that one of the reasons 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.200 there is overcrowding is there's people who are not getting 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:33.280 parole who have served their full sentence. And Kevin Henry 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.400 is one of those people that he has served his 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:42.240 entire sentence. And remember that's despite the fact I'll personally 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.400 say that I don't believe he committed the crime, and 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:51.280 he maintains his innocence twenty five years later, and yet 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:55.480 he could face the prospect of spending even further than 0:10:55.559 --> 0:11:00.199 what the judge sentenced him to a longer period, and 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.280 I think this is just unacceptable. But we'll wait and 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:05.960 see and hear what that decision is. 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:06.840 Money. 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:09.360 You just mentioned that Kevin Henry has pretty much served 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.280 as time, and yet we are facing the prospects that 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:14.360 he could go over and then he could have his 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.079 parole knocked back. I mean, how is that possible if 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.959 he has already served his time for a crime even 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:22.120 though he says he didn't. 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:26.599 Commit Well, I think the understanding in the general community 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:30.240 is that you do the crime, you do the time. 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:35.840 Now in this case, obviously we're suggesting that there's a 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:39.280 lot of evidence to suggest Kevin Henry did not commit 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:44.200 the crime and that he is maintaining his innocence. But 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:49.079 he has already served beyond the sentence that the judge 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:53.280 handed down, but to be released, it's up to the 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:58.480 parole boat to grant that release. So Kevin's life is 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:03.079 effectively in the hands of the parole board and until 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:06.280 they give the green light that he is to be released, 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:11.240 then he can continue to serve time that far exceeds 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:16.600 what the judge initially handed down at the trial. I 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:21.120 think that should be concerning to everyone in the community, 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.160 a that there is a misunderstanding that once you've done 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:31.240 the crime, you're released, but also that parole is dependent 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.960 on a board of people who we don't know a 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:41.040 lot about, where the ability for someone to challenge any 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:46.120 decision is quite limited and often depends on the resources 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:50.360 available to that person. And if you've been in prison 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:54.920 for twenty five years, the reality is you have access 0:12:55.000 --> 0:13:00.319 to virtually no resources and more than likely nothing, and 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:04.120 so you're at the whim of those who would assist 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.760 you in trying to get parrale. Now, if you're from 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:12.559 a more well off family or from a higher level 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:18.080 of society, then that becomes much easier, But particularly for 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.520 the Aboriginal community, I think we're seeing a lot of 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:26.000 Indigenous prisoners serve longer than they should, whether they did 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:30.599 or didn't do the crime, purely because their ability to 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:37.920 file applications for parole and challenge any negative decisions is very, 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.160 very limited, and I don't think there's any justice in that. 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:44.440 Now, as we continue to wait for the outcome of 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:48.600 Kemmen's parole hearing what we've been getting quite a lot 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:52.360 of feedback from you the audience about this case. Martin, 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.120 what would you say, are the common questions that are 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:56.040 coming back to you. 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.640 I think there's, obviously, given what we've laid out, a 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:05.240 great deal of concern as to whether Kevin is guilty 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.319 or not. And I have to say that everybody who's 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:13.480 contacted me personally, and that's been through all levels of 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:18.960 social media, to people in the legal fraternity, I think 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.200 most people believe that a Kevin didn't get a fair 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:26.160 trial and that there's no way he should have been 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:30.600 found guilty based on the evidence presented. And I think 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:35.200 that's pretty obvious given that no forensic evidence was presented 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.800 against Kevin that links him to the crime. So I 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.760 guess that leads us to the big question that a 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.080 lot of people are asking, which is that if Kevin 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.520 didn't do the crime, who did. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:51.560 We brought our listeners a number of names that had 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.120 come up during the trial, a lot of evidence and 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.280 leads that the police had simply failed to investigate. But 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.680 there was one name that can tinually popped up, the 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.400 name of Willy West. And yet there didn't seem to 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.920 be any follow through from that. Did they mardin? How 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:09.840 did the name Willy West keep popping up? 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.600 Well? I think the name Willy West comes up in 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.640 a number of ways. Firstly, his name was raised in 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:23.240 statements by those who were present on the day. Now 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.840 we can't tell for sure whether a statement was taken 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:32.720 from Willy West on the stand. Officer Girk says that 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:37.800 he didn't take a statement. It's possible another officer did, 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:42.440 but that it's also possible that an officer didn't take 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.920 a statement from this individual, Willy West. But I think 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.760 what's most important about his name is that the four 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:57.360 defense attorneys were very clear to honing on him in 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:02.000 particular and other names, but to raise the name of 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:06.720 Willy West as to why police hadn't investigated him. Further, 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.200 we know that all the other people who were down 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:16.320 at Tanuba that night gave statements, almost all of them 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:20.600 gave multiple statements. Many of them were called and testified 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:27.080 in Kevin's trial. But this name Willy West continued to 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.880 come up, and I think the answers the police gave 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:35.120 as well lead to a lot of concern as to 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:40.080 why he wasn't spoken to. He was drinking with duck 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:45.200 Hart that day. It's believed he was there later on 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.480 in the evening, So this was someone coming and going 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:53.760 from Tanuba, and unlike everyone else, there doesn't seem to 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:58.520 be any accounting for his movements that day, and there 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.640 seems to be no effort on the police's behalf to 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.760 trace his movements, even if it was simply to rule 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:10.400 him out. I think that's one thing that I'm personally 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.639 very critical of the police in this matter, for is 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:19.000 you have thirty or so people who were at Tanuba, 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.520 you had a number of people coming and going, and 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:27.959 you had the people at the camp further up. Now, 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:32.960 those names were all known to police, and a proper 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:37.320 investigation would go through those names one by one and 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.520 rule them out, whether that person have an hour by 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.920 whether there was any evidence linking them to the crime, 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.640 whether their name had come up in other statements as 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:53.520 to what people saw. But despite the fact that Willie 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:58.560 West's name came up, and it came up quite forcefully 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.280 at the trial, with the defense lawyers pushing his name, 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:07.480 police had made no effort at all to ascertain who 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:11.800 he was, what he was up to that day, and 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:16.119 if he was involved. And if they had done that, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:22.080 they certainly weren't mentioning it at trial. So either they didn't, 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:26.240 and that would be negligent or they did look into 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.840 Willy West and for whatever reason, chose not to give 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:31.119 those answers a trial. 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.280 What do we know about Willy West? Do we know 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.720 if he was actually a witness to the assault on 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:38.680 Linda that night? 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.800 We can't be one hundred percent certain. And one of 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:47.200 the reasons we can't be is that the witness statements 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:51.760 changed quite a bit. And as we heard from Wayne 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:56.440 Saunders on the stand that the police chased him up 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:01.040 until he'd given around five statements. Now, there's only one 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.240 reason you do that, and that is because the police 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:08.720 are hoping he would say things that would further implicate Kevin, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:13.160 because Kevin was the person he was they were going after. 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.920 But Wayne was quite clear in that he just wasn't 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.920 going to change his statement. But we don't know if 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:29.480 others did. So many of the witness statements. In the 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:35.760 initial statements individuals gave. Many of those people didn't even 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.239 mention Kevin, and if they did, it was just to 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:44.400 say he was there. Now, when they gave their second statements, 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:49.320 third and fourth and fifth statements after Kevin had been charged, 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:55.000 suddenly a number of them, only a couple, particularly the 0:19:55.119 --> 0:20:00.600 co accused, launched into the fact that somehow even may 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:04.880 have been involved or mentioning Kevin's name, at least more 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:09.320 than they had previously. So what we'll never know is 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:13.840 what did these people say about Willie West in their 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:19.080 initial statements? In fact, what did they say about other people? 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.960 Because there's a number of other people who didn't have 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:30.199 alibis who were raised as potential suspects. We know of 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:34.440 an individual who a lawyer went to police saying that 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:39.240 their client had confessed, and these individuals just weren't followed 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:44.000 up on. But again, we just don't know what was 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:49.000 in those early statements given by witnesses because the police 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:53.199 were very keen to focus in what they knew and 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.560 saw about Kevin Henry and nothing else. 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:00.719 The thing that keeps coming up for me why did 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.880 they choose Kevin to target? Because if they were able 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.199 to sort of look around a bit further, surely they 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:11.600 would have found those other suspects and could have easily 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.360 found people who had a lot more you know, incriminating 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.720 evidence against them, because it seemed to be a lot 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.880 more suspects that you know, we're a lot more evidence 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:22.600 against them than Kevin. So why do you think they 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:26.760 would have targeted Kevin and not full up a lot 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.680 of these leads. It just seems very strange. 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:33.200 Well, I think the simple and obvious answer is bad 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:37.679 police work. I just don't think there's any way the 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.800 police can argue they did a decent and start a 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:45.000 job in this matter. I think the other problem that 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:49.040 Kevin had clearly that his first statement was taken when 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:53.479 he was intoxicated, and so he doesn't really know what 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:56.679 he said, and we don't really know what he said. 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:00.560 But he made the statement about calling you any ambulance 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:06.439 and that turned out not to be correct. But for 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:11.960 whatever reason, the police, by their own admission in court 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:17.119 under oath, state that from the day they arrested and 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:22.600 charged Kevin on the fifth of September, before an official 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:27.399 cause of death had been returned from the forensic scientists, 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:33.159 they focused on Kevin and no one else. And I 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:38.600 think whatever their motive was for picking Kevin out, everything 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:42.520 from that from then on in their investigation is tainted 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:46.040 by the fact their eyes were closed. They were purely 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:50.320 searching for information that would link Kevin to the crime 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:55.600 and nothing else, which means missing all the evidence that 0:22:55.760 --> 0:23:00.480 could have potentially pointed to other people. And what we 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:07.120 know they uncovered about Kevin is absolutely nothing. And part 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:10.600 of that is because they charged him before the cause 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:14.159 of death came back, so not a single shred of 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:19.160 forensic evidence points to Kevin Henry. And when you've got 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:23.160 your blinkers on as investigating officers and you've chosen one 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:28.560 person to focus on, not only do you get it 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:33.439 wrong because you're missing everything else that's going on around you. 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:39.080 The very person you've targeted, if they are innocent. The 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:42.360 result will be that you do not find anything, which 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:46.199 is exactly what happened with Kevin. And that meant that 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:51.600 much of the information that related to other individuals who 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:57.359 should have been or worse suspects early on was completely missed, 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:01.879 was never followed up on, and it gave time for 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:07.760 people to get their story straight, to leave town under 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:12.120 the blanket of protection provided by the police who'd failed 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:15.520 in their duty to investigate this thoroughly. And I think 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:21.280 not only was an injustice committed against Kevin Henry, but 0:24:21.560 --> 0:24:27.760 that Linda had every right to justice. As an Aboriginal woman, 0:24:28.119 --> 0:24:32.359 she was the most vulnerable person in society at the time. 0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:36.520 An Aboriginal women remained the most vulnerable people in our 0:24:36.560 --> 0:24:42.280 society today, and yet the police made no effort to 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:46.360 investigate thoroughly. All they did was pick one individual out 0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:52.120 and leave out any of these other people. So all 0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:56.200 these names that our listeners are asking us about. When 0:24:56.200 --> 0:25:01.159 our listeners say, if Kevin didn't do it, who, I 0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:04.280 think we have to start with the question of why 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:07.480 did Linda not get justice? And that's because the police 0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:12.240 didn't do their job. And who are these other people? 0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:15.359 And why don't we know more? And again that is 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:20.280 because the police didn't investigate properly, and that's why we 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:24.800 don't know more about them. But we can say that 0:25:24.880 --> 0:25:29.040 we've been looking as who these people are and we'll 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:32.399 be able to reveal more in the future. But I 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:35.560 hope that begins to answer for our listeners as to 0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:40.280 why there is some confusion, and that it's actually okay 0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:44.879 to be confused by these names because the clarity should 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:49.399 have been provided by the police. And if you are 0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:54.760 confused about all these names that have been raised, then 0:25:55.520 --> 0:26:00.000 your disgruntlement should be with those investigating officers who could 0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:04.400 ruled these people in or out but didn't do their job. 0:26:05.560 --> 0:26:09.480 Does it go beyond bad police work and just basically 0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:12.080 you know failing to follow up certain leads, because I 0:26:12.119 --> 0:26:16.120 can imagine some of our audience are wondering if there 0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:18.959 was perhaps something deliberate in the way the police acted, 0:26:19.040 --> 0:26:21.800 whether they were trying to cover certain things up. And 0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:25.480 I think that's probably based on other people's experiences with 0:26:25.640 --> 0:26:28.120 police and law in other parts of Australia. 0:26:29.119 --> 0:26:32.399 Well, I think that's definitely right. I think from the 0:26:33.080 --> 0:26:37.760 Aboriginal community in particular, in the twenty five years Kevin's 0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:42.200 been in prison, four hundred Aboriginal and Terrestrada Island, the 0:26:42.440 --> 0:26:46.920 people have died at the hands of police and corrective services. 0:26:47.880 --> 0:26:51.920 So I think that alone raises a great deal of 0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:57.960 suspicion about the motives and actions of police. We also 0:26:58.119 --> 0:27:02.240 know that it's not an Aboriginal person in Australia who 0:27:02.320 --> 0:27:07.200 hasn't had either bad dealings personally with the police themselves 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:11.240 or someone in their family or circle of friends, and 0:27:11.280 --> 0:27:17.040 that further creates that ill trust. And we know for 0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:20.120 a fact, and it came out twenty five odd years 0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:23.520 ago from the Royal Commission into Black Debts in custody. 0:27:24.440 --> 0:27:29.000 It's come out subsequently in media investigations that there is 0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:34.200 a very good reason why Aboriginal people have this deep 0:27:34.480 --> 0:27:38.520