Speaker 1: I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that
Speaker 1: if you're a fan of this podcast, you're probably quite ambitious,
Speaker 1: especially careerize. But what happens when the work goes away,
Speaker 1: whether it's something like the pandemic, unexpected change in your
Speaker 1: personal life, or maybe time to retire. Thankfully, my favorite
Speaker 1: former boss, Nigel Marsh, has returned to How I Work
Speaker 1: to answer those questions. He started thinking about this when
Speaker 1: he was made redundant at forty years old, and he
Speaker 1: hasn't stopped thinking about it since, even after returning to
Speaker 1: work as a very successful corporate CEO and then going
Speaker 1: on to become a best selling author, ted speaker and podcaster.
Speaker 1: So how did Nigel deliberately move through what he describes
Speaker 1: as life's three trimesters of learn, earn and return? And
Speaker 1: how as he approaches sixty is he thinking of using
Speaker 1: his third trimester. My name is doctor amanthe Imba. I'm
Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,
Speaker 1: and this is How I Work, a show about how
Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. If you listen
Speaker 1: to Nigel the last time he was on How I
Speaker 1: Work about three years ago, you'll know that he is
Speaker 1: a big proponent of not giving advice because there is
Speaker 1: no guarantee that because something works for him, it will
Speaker 1: work for anyone else. But when I hit record for
Speaker 1: this interview, Nigel told me that he had a confession
Speaker 1: to make.
Speaker 2: I feel really embarrassed and conflicted about this. But it
Speaker 2: stems from three things. My friend Rick saying that Nigel,
Speaker 2: actually you do give advice. You do like advice, and
Speaker 2: you should give advice. And I thought, oh, oh, maybe
Speaker 2: maybe I do. And then the head master of a
Speaker 2: school called Reddham. None of my kids went to read them,
Speaker 2: and I don't know anyone who went to read them,
Speaker 2: and I don't know the head master, but in his
Speaker 2: recent letter to the class, the graduating class of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty two and printed in the whatever it is, the
Speaker 2: Leaver's annual Report, he ended with I want to end
Speaker 2: with a passage from Nigel Marsh's book that really resonated me,
Speaker 2: and he quotes a paragraph from my book as advice
Speaker 2: to the children that are leaving year twelve. And then
Speaker 2: the third thing is a letter I've got on my
Speaker 2: phone here from a bloke in Oregon who wrote to
Speaker 2: me saying, thank you, Thank you, Thank you. Your books
Speaker 2: have given me hope when I thought I had none.
Speaker 2: Please keep on writing anyway. So all of that is
Speaker 2: I've come to an uncomfortable inflection point where where I
Speaker 2: feel I can give advice. And I know for you
Speaker 2: doesn't do anything yet, anything but give advice. But for me,
Speaker 2: that's a massive uncomfortable shift, and I I'll only do
Speaker 2: it if I'm asked. I just don't feel comfortable giving advice.
Speaker 2: I like telling stories in my story, and if people
Speaker 2: find something useful from that, then I'm happy. But actually
Speaker 2: I gave a talk at a library last night and
Speaker 2: all these people came up and said lovely things, and actually, Nigel,
Speaker 2: we want you to tell us that. So I suppose
Speaker 2: when I came on your fabulous podcast last time, I
Speaker 2: was a bit of a dick and just said, you know,
Speaker 2: giving advice is stupid and blah blah blah, and you go, well,
Speaker 2: or many people give stupid advice and many people shouldn't
Speaker 2: be listened to. But actually, Rick, my friend is right.
Speaker 2: I mean I am comfortable to somebody. I like you,
Speaker 2: I respect like you. If you ask me, and only
Speaker 2: if you ask me, I'm not going to burst into
Speaker 2: your office or your home and give you advice. And
Speaker 2: I think there's a key insight here that will enable
Speaker 2: me in forums like this or other forums to give
Speaker 2: advice is to shout out loud upfront that there isn't
Speaker 2: one answer for one person for everybody. So that unlocks
Speaker 2: the key for me to be able to have these
Speaker 2: types of conversations.
Speaker 1: And that is a big sture for you. Yet, you
Speaker 1: do a lot of executive coaching in your work life,
Speaker 1: and I imagine a lot of that does involve imparting
Speaker 1: advice or let's say, advice in inverted commas stories that
Speaker 1: people will learn from. I'd love to know what are
Speaker 1: some of the more common things that you find and
Speaker 1: yourself explaining or advising people around.
Speaker 2: So that's a really good question of Antheon. Is the
Speaker 2: the one on one coaching that I do that I
Speaker 2: take incredibly seriously. I mean, that's a very special relationship.
Speaker 2: It's mainly based around the work of the lady who's
Speaker 2: my next episode on five of My Life, Nancy Klin,
Speaker 2: And it's based around deep listening. So it isn't actually
Speaker 2: I mean, it's easy to poke fun at this, it
Speaker 2: isn't actually giving advice it's asking proper questions and just listening,
Speaker 2: because I deeply believe that people have their own answers.
Speaker 2: But you can pose, you know, you can say what's
Speaker 2: getting in your way? What limiting assumptions might you have.
Speaker 2: There's there's a host of really really really proper, thoughtful,
Speaker 2: open questions that you can ask repeatedly and not interrupt people,
Speaker 2: and they develop the answers in front of you. I
Speaker 2: don't go in saying do you know what I reckon?
Speaker 2: You should do X, Y and Z. But given my
Speaker 2: confession about I give advice, it is I'd probably say
Speaker 2: two things, as in most common to say, and one
Speaker 2: is the main thing is keeping the main thing the
Speaker 2: main thing, and that's life transformative. So you know, I
Speaker 2: speak to people who there's obviously one big drama in
Speaker 2: their life that needs to be sorted out before anything out,
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, they're in the wrong job, they're
Speaker 2: in the wrong marriage, whatever it might be. And then
Speaker 2: they come in and they're crapping on about a whole
Speaker 2: host of other things, and you go, what you know?
Speaker 2: I don't say, but you go and is that the
Speaker 2: biggest It's easier sometimes not sometimes most of the time
Speaker 2: to attend to things that aren't the real thing. It's
Speaker 2: like people who are drinking problems. It's they do a
Speaker 2: whole host of stuff other than give up drinking, or
Speaker 2: people are flat. You go, the last thing I'd actually
Speaker 2: want to do is eat less, And you go, well,
Speaker 2: what maybe for the very thing that you should be doing?
Speaker 2: So you know, the main thing is keeping the main
Speaker 2: thing the main thing. The second thing comes to the
Speaker 2: consultancy I've run called West eighty second, where the mantra
Speaker 2: that I wrote, which I believe applies to life and
Speaker 2: applies to business, is clarity, alignment momentum. And most people
Speaker 2: in business and in life like to start with momentum
Speaker 2: because it's busy and you're doing things and you know
Speaker 2: that just get going. And you go, well, actually, how
Speaker 2: about we think about and this comes down to my
Speaker 2: work in work life balance. I get sent all around
Speaker 2: the world to talk about this where and some of
Speaker 2: the jokey conversations that you and I have and some
Speaker 2: of the other people who work in the space where
Speaker 2: I take the piss. But I've changed today, I promised
Speaker 2: you I've changed today. All these efficiency experts who want
Speaker 2: to turn you into a sodding corporate athlete. Drive me
Speaker 2: up the wall. Only drive me up the wall if
Speaker 2: you haven't done the clarity and alignment piece. I really
Speaker 2: like the work that you Andrew May Adam Grant, blah
Speaker 2: blah blah, all these wonderful lapture of experts do if
Speaker 2: you've done the clarity in alignment. So being ever more
Speaker 2: efficient if you haven't worked out what you want to
Speaker 2: be and how you want to live is actually destructive.
Speaker 2: You just might do even more of the wrong thing,
Speaker 2: even more efficiently.
Speaker 1: So how do you get clarity?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: What are some questions that you ask people to help
Speaker 1: them get to that point of clarity?
Speaker 2: Just pretend I were to coach you, I'd start with homework,
Speaker 2: So I would ask you very open, very open questions.
Speaker 2: Where could you write down you know, just where you're at,
Speaker 2: Describe where you're at, and tell me a bit about
Speaker 2: your hopes and dreams and what you feel the most
Speaker 2: important issues are on your mind, Just general stuff. Don't
Speaker 2: you say, oh how much a page? No, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: just just whatever whatever strikes you. And then you'll send
Speaker 2: me something and just pretend it's twenty five pages about
Speaker 2: how you hate your boyfriend. And I didn't ask you
Speaker 2: about your boyfriend. You've just written twenty five pages about
Speaker 2: your boody boyfriend. Someone else could write back, and there's
Speaker 2: one page. I want to be richer? Yeah, or I
Speaker 2: hate my boss? Is you learn so much without it?
Speaker 2: Is to absolutely hold myself to the principle of having
Speaker 2: no assumptions. So I could look at you and go
Speaker 2: I could tell I could tell you what your issues
Speaker 2: are just from looking at you on the screen. You go, no, no,
Speaker 2: you can't, Nigel, let her talk, Let her talk. When
Speaker 2: she finishes, don't say anything. She'll talk again. And when
Speaker 2: she finishes and she doesn't say anything, just prompt her
Speaker 2: and say, tell me more about that. Amant to the
Speaker 2: thing about you're not being fully satisfied about your career?
Speaker 2: What does and then you talk again? You talk again,
Speaker 2: you talk, don't have any Oh gosh, I can't wait
Speaker 2: to come in with my advice about the main thing. No, no,
Speaker 2: no, no no. I might have a client who's completely clear
Speaker 2: on what the main thing is, totally clear, but they've
Speaker 2: got another problem. So I just it's a loving act
Speaker 2: of being fully present and engaging and not knowing the answer.
Speaker 2: I never know the answer but not knowing where I'm
Speaker 2: going to go next until I feel I've fully fully
Speaker 2: drawn out of whoever it is I'm consulting or coaching,
Speaker 2: where they are currently at and what is important to them?
Speaker 1: What are some other questions that you use to tease.
Speaker 2: That at whether they sort of build from the first response?
Speaker 2: Does that? Does that make sense? So I haven't got
Speaker 2: set ones. So if you just pretend you're a medium
Speaker 2: sized business owner and you say it just really, We've
Speaker 2: got a great product and everything, but it's just the operations.
Speaker 2: I can't get the supply chain to work. Or everyone
Speaker 2: loves our product and we've got lots of sales, but
Speaker 2: I just can't make it profitable. And then I dig
Speaker 2: deeper on the thing that they have raised, and the
Speaker 2: question again, I recommend Nancy Clein's work and listen to
Speaker 2: the episode next week. Is that the I mean, but
Speaker 2: you're you're an expert. This I'm an amateur, you're an expert.
Speaker 2: It is the wonderful power of saying tell me more.
Speaker 2: And if you could actually even discipline yourself not to
Speaker 2: use the word about, So don't say why, and don't
Speaker 2: say tell me more about. And it's incredibly hard amanth.
Speaker 2: But but you, you know, you crap on about oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, I'm really unhappy with my boyfriend, and then
Speaker 2: you finish and tell me more. Now, obviously I'm asking
Speaker 2: you about your boyfriend because that's what you've just been
Speaker 2: talking about. But I don't say, tell me more about
Speaker 2: your boyfriend. I say, tell me more, and then you
Speaker 2: probably will. You will. Actually, Yeah, when I say I'm
Speaker 2: really annoyed about what he does, what I mean I'm
Speaker 2: really really annoyed about on a Tuesday, when he and
Speaker 2: you go deeper and deeper and deeper on the actual thing.
Speaker 2: If I keep on, it's cooled. I mean, you've probably
Speaker 2: got the proper phrase for it. But generative listening, generative attention.
Speaker 2: So you so there isn't. It's against my philosophy to
Speaker 2: have a set bunch of questions, I mean, beyond really
Speaker 2: obvious ones like tell me about yourself or what's on
Speaker 2: your mind, or how's it going, or you know, what's
Speaker 2: been working well recently what's been working less well? I
Speaker 2: shouldn't be giving you this advice.
Speaker 1: Well, I would like you to tell me more about
Speaker 1: ignoring your advice, sorry, Nige, about how you divide your
Speaker 1: life into three trimesters. Can you tell me about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I just have you heard of Poma,
Speaker 2: one of my favorite charts. I haven't. I don't present
Speaker 2: with any charts when I do my speeches, so I
Speaker 2: haven't got any snow. Was asked we'd send slides and
Speaker 2: if they insist, I send them one that just has
Speaker 2: capital p io m A written on it. Are you
Speaker 2: familiar with this? No, it's a little known business philosophy
Speaker 2: called pulled it out my ass Hah. Yeah. So I
Speaker 2: just look at my life because I happen to be
Speaker 2: turning sixty, and it makes sense to me, but I'm
Speaker 2: not saying it does to anyone else. To look at
Speaker 2: your life in the thirds. And you could say learn,
Speaker 2: earn return. So you spend the first third sort of learning,
Speaker 2: I mean officially learning at school, but also learning how
Speaker 2: to get dressed, drive, you know, have a relationship, whatever,
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. And then the middle bit doing what
Speaker 2: you're doing, you know, running around, hard working, earning money,
Speaker 2: looking after you loved ones, building business is absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 2: And then wherever you define and for Rupert Murdock, it's
Speaker 2: probably ninety three and Martin sorrel. It's ninety seven or
Speaker 2: never a return thing where you return to the woman
Speaker 2: you wanted to be in the first place, and you
Speaker 2: haven't got all ten children to look after. In six mortgages,
Speaker 2: you can actually think about how you're going to feel
Speaker 2: the twenty summers that you've got left on this earth.
Speaker 2: You know, how you're going to make a contribution, how
Speaker 2: you're going to whatever. So that's and I'm just making
Speaker 2: it up, but it feels intuitively that it's got some sense.
Speaker 2: Is you go through you know, you're a child, you're
Speaker 2: an adult, and then you're an old adult. And I
Speaker 2: don't think old is bad. I think old is completely fine.
Speaker 2: I mean, actually it should be the best part of
Speaker 2: your life. So I just choose to look at my
Speaker 2: life in that way. And I find that the Japanese
Speaker 2: are a phrase for this can reky what is can recky?
Speaker 2: How Japanese celebrate the sixth birthday. So it is a
Speaker 2: culturally recognized thing as you come into the autumn of
Speaker 2: your life. And for me, part of my book Smart
Speaker 2: Stupid than sixty is leaning into that. If I can
Speaker 2: use that revolting phrase where you engage with it and
Speaker 2: go yipee. I am coming into the autumn of my life.
Speaker 1: So how have you done that? Like, because in your
Speaker 1: book you write about preparing for the third trimester in
Speaker 1: the second trimester, So what were the steps that you
Speaker 1: took to do that in your own life?
Speaker 2: So this is and I don't want to see a
Speaker 2: grown woman cry or upset any of your listeners, But
Speaker 2: I wow, here we go. Is the book? I mean
Speaker 2: perfect for Christmas, I should add. But the book, although
Speaker 2: you know lots of people will buy it for people's
Speaker 2: you know, uncles who are turning sixty or whatever, it
Speaker 2: actually should be read by forty year olds because I
Speaker 2: mean one level is you get to your deathbed and
Speaker 2: you go, what was all that for? I've wasted the
Speaker 2: last twenty years of my life. I should have been
Speaker 2: having more holidays, more sex, more fun. Instead I was
Speaker 2: building my pension up. Great, I've got no friends and
Speaker 2: got no memories. You know, well done. Another level is
Speaker 2: you get to sixty and you say, I now need
Speaker 2: to attend to some proper things in my life. I'm
Speaker 2: going to take up gulf and basket weaving and be
Speaker 2: nicer to my wife. Oh gosh, he's left me. But
Speaker 2: that's better than the first option, and you lay down
Speaker 2: some fundamental foundations in your life, friendship, contribution, you know,
Speaker 2: rewarding meaningful things, experiences, not possessions. But the real answer
Speaker 2: is never letting those foundations go. That's the real answer.
Speaker 2: And that now, obviously we can't get in the bloody
Speaker 2: time machine. Now, I was lucky because I lost my
Speaker 2: job when I was forty. I didn't think I was lucky,
Speaker 2: but I was lucky. So I've always been thinking about
Speaker 2: the point of life ever since I studied theology and
Speaker 2: all that stuff. But you know, life is busy and
Speaker 2: stressful and not easy, especially with four kids and moving
Speaker 2: countries and all that competitive, stressful industry. But the people
Speaker 2: who really have cracked it, and you have to be
Speaker 2: superhumanly brilliant to do this, is they never change from
Speaker 2: that cheery, happy, fun kind seventeen year old, and they
Speaker 2: work at something that they can stay being that fun kind,
Speaker 2: cheery seventeen year old even when they're twenty seven and
Speaker 2: then thirty seven, so when they get to be fifty seven,
Speaker 2: they don't go, gosh. I've over the last three decades
Speaker 2: to turn myself into a husk of a person where
Speaker 2: did it go. I'll try and get back to you know,
Speaker 2: I'll call up my old university mates that I haven't
Speaker 2: spoken to in forty years. So it's a long way
Speaker 2: come around. You answer is, I've I don't subscribe to
Speaker 2: the you know, the Reginald Perin working in account seat firm,
Speaker 2: and you hate it until you're sixty and then retire
Speaker 2: and suddenly take up golf. You know, it's not really
Speaker 2: where it's at is laid down some foundations, or more importantly,
Speaker 2: don't get rid of those foundations, so friendships, relationships, interests, whatever.
Speaker 2: So over the last twenty years, for me, I have
Speaker 2: worked very, very very hard at not letting anyone who
Speaker 2: I don't admire being my boss. And when I mean
Speaker 2: being my boss, I don't just mean being my literal boss,
Speaker 2: but actually having control over me. You know that horrible
Speaker 2: situation where you work in a I'll mat I'll make
Speaker 2: it up. I won't mention any names, Goldman, Sachs or whatever.
Speaker 2: You just attend you're working somewhere and you don't like
Speaker 2: where you're working, and your boss leans over your desk
Speaker 2: and goes listen, dipshit. You've got no choice because I
Speaker 2: know you've got a large mortgage and three children in
Speaker 2: private school, says, suck it up, sweet caches and do
Speaker 2: the next deal. And I'd like to get to say
Speaker 2: at that stage, how about you range the words often
Speaker 2: fuck and apply them to yourself because I don't like this. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's just to be in charge of designing your
Speaker 2: own life. But within the real world, we've got to
Speaker 2: work hard, we've all got to make compromises, and you
Speaker 2: can't have everything. So it's a long answer to your question.
Speaker 2: But since the age of forty, I've taken it very,
Speaker 2: very seriously to maintain and nurture but also to develop
Speaker 2: new ones. I never was an author. I'm now giving
Speaker 2: talks about my fourth book. I never was a podcaster.
Speaker 2: I now spend lots of time doing podcasting. I never
Speaker 2: was a coach. Is to try to lay down things
Speaker 2: that I find interesting and rewarding, that I think make
Speaker 2: a small little contribution to the world, rather than and
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with this, by the way, being an
Speaker 2: account director in an advertising agency, which is a perfectly
Speaker 2: wonderful thing to be and I used to be that.
Speaker 2: But if I'd never developed anything else, well, then when
Speaker 2: you lose the account that you work on. You're rooted.
Speaker 2: You can't fall back on your coaching, income speaking, income author,
Speaker 2: income podcast, income consulting income. You haven't, you know, you
Speaker 2: have to go around begging the other agency that's won
Speaker 2: the account to be I've been driven by a terror
Speaker 2: of Justin And when I say a count director, I
Speaker 2: mean managing director and CEO, because that's all you are anyway.
Speaker 2: When you do that, you're sort of at the mercy
Speaker 2: of other people who don't give two hoops about you.
Speaker 1: We will be back with Nigel soon talking about how
Speaker 1: he has deliberately nurtured friendships in preparation for his third trimester.
Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way
Speaker 1: that you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that
Speaker 1: contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me
Speaker 1: work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving
Speaker 1: through the interesting research findings. You can sign up for
Speaker 1: that at Howiwork dot code. That's how I work dot co.
Speaker 1: What about friendships, like, how have you deliberately nurtured should
Speaker 1: friendships to prepare for the third trimester?
Speaker 2: Well, oh, dear, you're going to trigger me? Is I?
Speaker 2: I often think I do friendship wrong, and that I
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I adore all my friends, and
Speaker 2: I've got varied friends and they're very valuable to me.
Speaker 2: But I'm an unusual case unusual schooling, you know, center
Speaker 2: boarding school at the age of five in another country,
Speaker 2: and then you give up drink and then you emigrate
Speaker 2: around the world. So it's not really conducive to having
Speaker 2: you know, I look at my kids and their mates
Speaker 2: still with the people they went to primary school with. Well,
Speaker 2: of course they are because the primary I can see
Speaker 2: out the window the primary school and they live in Sydney,
Speaker 2: and you know, that's a lovely thing. So that that
Speaker 2: Thomas the tank Engine Island of Soda version of friendship
Speaker 2: or cheers or whatever, that I secretly envy and feel
Speaker 2: slightly lesser because I haven't got it is something that
Speaker 2: I've had to work an out. So I don't know
Speaker 2: anyone from my prep school anybody, I mean, I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know anyone from my high school. I've got
Speaker 2: mates from university and so it's just to be aware
Speaker 2: of it and nurture it and water it. So I
Speaker 2: I you know, I don't prioritize work over friends. If
Speaker 2: that makes sense. I probably do it the other way around.
Speaker 1: How do you do that in practice.
Speaker 2: Where you judge people by it? It's pretty when you
Speaker 2: go actions reveal intent. But I hear some people saying
Speaker 2: things about parenting or friends. But then you look at
Speaker 2: what they actually do and you go, well, but that's
Speaker 2: not what you say. So it's like people who are
Speaker 2: I don't know. Again, let's use the diet example, because
Speaker 2: that's easier. You know, I'm really keen to lose weights,
Speaker 2: and you go, when you're hoeing into a bowl of chips,
Speaker 2: you know, not that keen? Then oh, you mean you're
Speaker 2: keen to do it if it's really easy and pleasant
Speaker 2: and doesn't involve any discipline or sacrifice. Right, Okay, I
Speaker 2: understand it. So I would I will lose business and
Speaker 2: lose money and prioritize friends. And you go, well, well,
Speaker 2: so what of course you would? So I mean I
Speaker 2: would give you anxiety? How to say it is? I
Speaker 2: am there's just an important wedding and a mother in
Speaker 2: law birthday, and for a whole variety of reasons, I'm
Speaker 2: going to be in Europe for a month next year,
Speaker 2: and someone will call up and say, great news. Niger
Speaker 2: We've got two gigs for you in America, and that's
Speaker 2: going to you know, the American people pay more than
Speaker 2: anyone else in my little life. And I'll go, well,
Speaker 2: I can't do them well, and of course I can't
Speaker 2: do them. I'm going to Mary's. But I mean, I
Speaker 2: mean it doesn't as opposed to oh well in that case,
Speaker 2: and you go, well, so, so Ellie's wedding is not
Speaker 2: that important to you, then it's important if nothing else
Speaker 2: is in the calends. Yeah. So there's something if one
Speaker 2: were to get to some of the things that I
Speaker 2: hold myself to is that there's four values. I've never
Speaker 2: told anyone this. Here we go exclusive on how I work,
Speaker 2: but again it only works for me. Holdes off through discipline, honesty,
Speaker 2: hard work, humility. Yeah, okay, you know it's not I mean,
Speaker 2: everyone's got their own versions of it, but I reckon
Speaker 2: those four aren't aren't bad if you know, in whatever
Speaker 2: conversational situation you're in, are are you living your life
Speaker 2: and your endeavor true to those four?
Speaker 1: Something you wrote about in Smart, Stiffend and sixty, which
Speaker 1: is your latest book, which I just loved. Although you
Speaker 1: know that, but I feel like I need to tell
Speaker 1: you that. Well, we're recording, so listeners say, Christmas present,
Speaker 1: Amantha did, I did? Oh what a brilliant Christmas present.
Speaker 1: So something you write about is that you had to
Speaker 1: accept that your most in inverted commas conventionally successful days
Speaker 1: might be behind you, kind of referring, I guess to
Speaker 1: those you know objective career peaks like being a CEO,
Speaker 1: for example, And I would love to know what what
Speaker 1: that felt like when you came to that realization. How
Speaker 1: did you get there as well?
Speaker 2: Well, well I got there really easily, just by opening
Speaker 2: my eyes as I drive around in my Kia Rio
Speaker 2: watching twenty seven year olds in the aston margin and
Speaker 2: as I read the press of some knob jockey in
Speaker 2: New York has just been made, so understanding it is
Speaker 2: completely easier. I actually am. They're all lovely people that
Speaker 2: I judge to think called the efies recently one of
Speaker 2: the you know, one of the judges. And then for
Speaker 2: some reason I'd accepted to go to the actual awards
Speaker 2: and present an award, which I usually just judge and
Speaker 2: don't go to the thing. But it's brilliant just walking
Speaker 2: around going you know, there's all these people thrusting positioning
Speaker 2: telling you you know whatever, and you go. So that's
Speaker 2: where the action is, and that's completely fine. I mean
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there in my second hand clothes wanting to
Speaker 2: take an early TAXI. So it comes back to those
Speaker 2: four values, you know, honesty, humility. Just be clear. I
Speaker 2: do not run a multinational company with fifteen thousand employees.
Speaker 2: I have one employee. You're talking to him, and then
Speaker 2: I think the second part of the question is how
Speaker 2: does that feel. It feels great, it feels fantastic. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't swat places in a million years, I think the
Speaker 2: I think the key again back to those four values
Speaker 2: I spoke about, is the honesty part. So what you
Speaker 2: can do is you can be a little bit oppositional
Speaker 2: and go who that person not very good, really and
Speaker 2: that firm that they run isn't very no, no, no, she
Speaker 2: is really really bright and really successful and earns lots
Speaker 2: and lots of money and is very powerful. Those are
Speaker 2: all the facts, and more so than me, and you
Speaker 2: are great as opposed to having to the Only way
Speaker 2: you can be comfortable with it is deny that that
Speaker 2: he or she is. Does that make sense? You can
Speaker 2: go Rupert Murdoch has much, much, much more money and
Speaker 2: power than I do. But nudge.
Speaker 1: What I'm wondering, like, how do you transfer? Because I
Speaker 1: imagine you know, and we know each other when you
Speaker 1: were CEO of Leo Bennett and I was a mere
Speaker 1: minion on the on the on the shop floor looking
Speaker 1: really it was I, but you were you were you
Speaker 1: were the best CEO that I've ever experienced working for.
Speaker 1: And I say that, you know, not just because I'm
Speaker 1: talking to you, but like, as a CEO, I would
Speaker 1: imagine that you attach so much of your self identity
Speaker 1: to that role and to what you do for work.
Speaker 1: How did you almost attach that and come not to
Speaker 1: measure your life by things that are you know, sort
Speaker 1: of obviously successful.
Speaker 2: So gosh, that certain. That's a that's a very good question.
Speaker 2: It is. One answer is the fat, forty and fard experience?
Speaker 2: Where where from? Then? I worked at it a lot.
Speaker 2: I didn't want that to be my identity. I was
Speaker 2: very committed to trying to do the best job I
Speaker 2: could and be good at that job, but not make
Speaker 2: it me post. I mean, you know, I people might
Speaker 2: forget if they know me in Australia, But before I
Speaker 2: was a straight down the line conventional career warrior. So
Speaker 2: I've done that, and the way I was rewarded was
Speaker 2: I was made redundant. So that's a useful lesson. You
Speaker 2: go what I did, what everyone else said, and I
Speaker 2: bade the rules and I got flipped onto the scrapping.
Speaker 2: So then when you met me at Liabnette, that was
Speaker 2: post my year off, having done some reflection and coming
Speaker 2: back so different to if you'd known me when I
Speaker 2: was the CEO of my first agency in you know,
Speaker 2: straight up and still hopefully good at it in a
Speaker 2: nice bloke. But I was, you know, I hadn't done
Speaker 2: the serious, proper, proper reflection of how I wanted to be.
Speaker 2: But a second part to this is me giving up
Speaker 2: drinking was quite a instructive process in other areas of
Speaker 2: my life. So I haven't had a drink in twenty years,
Speaker 2: and when I hadn't, I give up drink before I
Speaker 2: took over Leabnette as a CEO. And the process of
Speaker 2: giving up drink, which was not easy if you had
Speaker 2: based your life around alcohol, which I had for the
Speaker 2: previous forty years, you discover that it's down to you.
Speaker 2: And so it's about I learned about putting meaningful, permanent
Speaker 2: change into your life. It just happened to be. I
Speaker 2: learned it about drink. You go, if I'm going to
Speaker 2: make this fundamental shift in my life, I can't be
Speaker 2: doing it for the affirmation, attention and approval of other people.
Speaker 2: And I can't be doing it expecting the support of
Speaker 2: other people. I mean, nice if I got it, but
Speaker 2: I can't be expecting it's a real proper this is
Speaker 2: you know, if it is to be, it is up
Speaker 2: to me type deal. And I meant it. So I
Speaker 2: gave up drink. And you know, idiots would try and
Speaker 2: get me to drink or mock me for not drinking,
Speaker 2: or I wouldn't be able to go and have friendly
Speaker 2: you know, nights out or whatever. But it was you know,
Speaker 2: this is going to happen. The main thing is the
Speaker 2: main thing, the main thing, And that experience helped me
Speaker 2: in a secret passionate bid not to fall into the
Speaker 2: trap that you're talking about, Nigel.
Speaker 1: For people that want to get a great Christmas present
Speaker 1: for their friends, family loved ones, what should they buy
Speaker 1: and where can they get it?
Speaker 2: From a time wise in all.
Speaker 1: And they should also pick up a copy of Smart
Speaker 1: Stupid and sixty, which is your latest book. I mean,
Speaker 1: all your books are brilliant. I'm such a I'm such
Speaker 1: a fan of your writing. I just you know, your
Speaker 1: latest book, like your other ones, they it literally made
Speaker 1: me laugh and cry and think differently about things. It's
Speaker 1: it was just it's one. It was just wonderful. You
Speaker 1: obviously do other things, Nige. How else can people track
Speaker 1: you down?
Speaker 2: Gosh so well? The thing I'm very I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: passionate about all the things I do, and I've got
Speaker 2: a website. I don't even know it's I think it's
Speaker 2: nigelmash dot com. But if you find an underwater photographer,
Speaker 2: that's not me. I'm the ugly bloke who doesn't do
Speaker 2: it's nigelmass dot com and check it's not a photographer,
Speaker 2: but maybe one of the places. Obviously, I'm thrilled to
Speaker 2: people buy Small, Stupid and sixty. Thank you for saying
Speaker 2: nice things. But it's check out my podcast, The Five
Speaker 2: of My Life. I just adore where that's going and
Speaker 2: how that's building. It's a lovely community. And I do
Speaker 2: this thing where you know, I've given you a hard
Speaker 2: time in the past because you don't answer emails it is.
Speaker 2: I answer every single email that gets sent to me,
Speaker 2: and people can send me emails, whether it's about coaching
Speaker 2: or speaking or West Day Second or the Sydney Skinny
Speaker 2: that's coming back next year for the tenth anniversary. So
Speaker 2: if anyone is in any way moved to talk to
Speaker 2: me or ask me a question or herl abuse at me,
Speaker 2: go to my website and I will and I will reply.
Speaker 2: Have I told you the story about lady? I posted
Speaker 2: it on Instagram because I found it hilarious. Who she
Speaker 2: sent me an email by my website and it was Nigel.
Speaker 2: I have to let you know I've just finished fifty
Speaker 2: and Yadder Yadder. So the insult in that you know,
Speaker 2: as in you clearly know the title, but you're not.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's Amantha. You do how I, how
Speaker 2: I whatever, work whatever? You know. I've just finished fifty
Speaker 2: and yadda Yadder. I picked it up at the Mildura
Speaker 2: Airport Free Book Exchange and I have to say on
Speaker 2: page one hundred and sixty, I couldn't help thinking I
Speaker 2: wish he'd wish his wife would write one, because that's
Speaker 2: when I'd pay for There you go. So, but I
Speaker 2: replied to her, I said, thank you very much indeed
Speaker 2: for taking the time you know to write. I'll let
Speaker 2: Kate know she's got a guaranteed sale if she puts
Speaker 2: pen to paper. You can also write to me and
Speaker 2: say nice things please.
Speaker 1: I hope that this chat got you thinking differently about
Speaker 1: your third trimester, or perhaps you're already in it right now.
Speaker 1: I know that for me, I wrap so much of
Speaker 1: my identity up in what I do and what the
Speaker 1: work I do brings to the world that I would
Speaker 1: feel really lost if, say, overnight, I was unable to
Speaker 1: work or forced into retirement. I know that when I
Speaker 1: was younger, I had goals around financial independence so that
Speaker 1: I could retire when I was young, but I found
Speaker 1: these goals have shifted because I can't imagine not wanting
Speaker 1: to work because it brings me a lot of joy.
Speaker 1: Not every day, of course, but definitely more days than not.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing part of your day with me
Speaker 1: by listening to how I work. If you're keen for
Speaker 1: more tips on how to work better, connect with me
Speaker 1: via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just
Speaker 1: search for Amantha Gimba. How I Work was recorded on
Speaker 1: the Traditional Land of the Warrenery people, part of the
Speaker 1: cool and nation. I am so grateful for being able
Speaker 1: to work and live on this beautiful land, and I
Speaker 1: want to pay my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging.
Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventium with production support
Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was
Speaker 1: Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba who did
Speaker 1: the audio mix and makes everything sound better than it
Speaker 1: would have otherwise.