1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: if you're a fan of this podcast, you're probably quite ambitious, 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: especially careerize. But what happens when the work goes away, 4 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: whether it's something like the pandemic, unexpected change in your 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: personal life, or maybe time to retire. Thankfully, my favorite 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: former boss, Nigel Marsh, has returned to How I Work 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: to answer those questions. He started thinking about this when 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: he was made redundant at forty years old, and he 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: hasn't stopped thinking about it since, even after returning to 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: work as a very successful corporate CEO and then going 11 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: on to become a best selling author, ted speaker and podcaster. 12 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: So how did Nigel deliberately move through what he describes 13 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: as life's three trimesters of learn, earn and return? And 14 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: how as he approaches sixty is he thinking of using 15 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: his third trimester. My name is doctor amanthe Imba. I'm 16 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 17 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: and this is How I Work, a show about how 18 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. If you listen 19 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: to Nigel the last time he was on How I 20 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: Work about three years ago, you'll know that he is 21 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: a big proponent of not giving advice because there is 22 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: no guarantee that because something works for him, it will 23 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: work for anyone else. But when I hit record for 24 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: this interview, Nigel told me that he had a confession 25 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: to make. 26 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: I feel really embarrassed and conflicted about this. But it 27 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: stems from three things. My friend Rick saying that Nigel, 28 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: actually you do give advice. You do like advice, and 29 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: you should give advice. And I thought, oh, oh, maybe 30 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: maybe I do. And then the head master of a 31 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 2: school called Reddham. None of my kids went to read them, 32 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: and I don't know anyone who went to read them, 33 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 2: and I don't know the head master, but in his 34 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: recent letter to the class, the graduating class of twenty 35 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 2: twenty two and printed in the whatever it is, the 36 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: Leaver's annual Report, he ended with I want to end 37 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: with a passage from Nigel Marsh's book that really resonated me, 38 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: and he quotes a paragraph from my book as advice 39 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: to the children that are leaving year twelve. And then 40 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: the third thing is a letter I've got on my 41 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: phone here from a bloke in Oregon who wrote to 42 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: me saying, thank you, Thank you, Thank you. Your books 43 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: have given me hope when I thought I had none. 44 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: Please keep on writing anyway. So all of that is 45 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 2: I've come to an uncomfortable inflection point where where I 46 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: feel I can give advice. And I know for you 47 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: doesn't do anything yet, anything but give advice. But for me, 48 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: that's a massive uncomfortable shift, and I I'll only do 49 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: it if I'm asked. I just don't feel comfortable giving advice. 50 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 2: I like telling stories in my story, and if people 51 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 2: find something useful from that, then I'm happy. But actually 52 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: I gave a talk at a library last night and 53 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: all these people came up and said lovely things, and actually, Nigel, 54 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: we want you to tell us that. So I suppose 55 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: when I came on your fabulous podcast last time, I 56 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: was a bit of a dick and just said, you know, 57 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: giving advice is stupid and blah blah blah, and you go, well, 58 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: or many people give stupid advice and many people shouldn't 59 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: be listened to. But actually, Rick, my friend is right. 60 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: I mean I am comfortable to somebody. I like you, 61 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: I respect like you. If you ask me, and only 62 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: if you ask me, I'm not going to burst into 63 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: your office or your home and give you advice. And 64 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: I think there's a key insight here that will enable 65 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: me in forums like this or other forums to give 66 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 2: advice is to shout out loud upfront that there isn't 67 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: one answer for one person for everybody. So that unlocks 68 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: the key for me to be able to have these 69 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 2: types of conversations. 70 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: And that is a big sture for you. Yet, you 71 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: do a lot of executive coaching in your work life, 72 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: and I imagine a lot of that does involve imparting 73 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: advice or let's say, advice in inverted commas stories that 74 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: people will learn from. I'd love to know what are 75 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: some of the more common things that you find and 76 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: yourself explaining or advising people around. 77 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: So that's a really good question of Antheon. Is the 78 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: the one on one coaching that I do that I 79 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 2: take incredibly seriously. I mean, that's a very special relationship. 80 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 2: It's mainly based around the work of the lady who's 81 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 2: my next episode on five of My Life, Nancy Klin, 82 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: And it's based around deep listening. So it isn't actually 83 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 2: I mean, it's easy to poke fun at this, it 84 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: isn't actually giving advice it's asking proper questions and just listening, 85 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: because I deeply believe that people have their own answers. 86 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: But you can pose, you know, you can say what's 87 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: getting in your way? What limiting assumptions might you have. 88 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: There's there's a host of really really really proper, thoughtful, 89 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 2: open questions that you can ask repeatedly and not interrupt people, 90 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: and they develop the answers in front of you. I 91 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: don't go in saying do you know what I reckon? 92 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 2: You should do X, Y and Z. But given my 93 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 2: confession about I give advice, it is I'd probably say 94 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: two things, as in most common to say, and one 95 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 2: is the main thing is keeping the main thing the 96 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: main thing, and that's life transformative. So you know, I 97 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 2: speak to people who there's obviously one big drama in 98 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 2: their life that needs to be sorted out before anything out, 99 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: Like I don't know, they're in the wrong job, they're 100 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: in the wrong marriage, whatever it might be. And then 101 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: they come in and they're crapping on about a whole 102 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: host of other things, and you go, what you know? 103 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: I don't say, but you go and is that the 104 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: biggest It's easier sometimes not sometimes most of the time 105 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 2: to attend to things that aren't the real thing. It's 106 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: like people who are drinking problems. It's they do a 107 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: whole host of stuff other than give up drinking, or 108 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: people are flat. You go, the last thing I'd actually 109 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 2: want to do is eat less, And you go, well, 110 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: what maybe for the very thing that you should be doing? 111 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: So you know, the main thing is keeping the main 112 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 2: thing the main thing. The second thing comes to the 113 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 2: consultancy I've run called West eighty second, where the mantra 114 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: that I wrote, which I believe applies to life and 115 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:23,239 Speaker 2: applies to business, is clarity, alignment momentum. And most people 116 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: in business and in life like to start with momentum 117 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 2: because it's busy and you're doing things and you know 118 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: that just get going. And you go, well, actually, how 119 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: about we think about and this comes down to my 120 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 2: work in work life balance. I get sent all around 121 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: the world to talk about this where and some of 122 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: the jokey conversations that you and I have and some 123 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 2: of the other people who work in the space where 124 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: I take the piss. But I've changed today, I promised 125 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: you I've changed today. All these efficiency experts who want 126 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: to turn you into a sodding corporate athlete. Drive me 127 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: up the wall. Only drive me up the wall if 128 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: you haven't done the clarity and alignment piece. I really 129 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: like the work that you Andrew May Adam Grant, blah 130 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: blah blah, all these wonderful lapture of experts do if 131 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: you've done the clarity in alignment. So being ever more 132 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 2: efficient if you haven't worked out what you want to 133 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: be and how you want to live is actually destructive. 134 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: You just might do even more of the wrong thing, 135 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 2: even more efficiently. 136 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: So how do you get clarity? 137 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: Like? 138 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: What are some questions that you ask people to help 139 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: them get to that point of clarity? 140 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: Just pretend I were to coach you, I'd start with homework, 141 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 2: So I would ask you very open, very open questions. 142 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: Where could you write down you know, just where you're at, 143 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 2: Describe where you're at, and tell me a bit about 144 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 2: your hopes and dreams and what you feel the most 145 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 2: important issues are on your mind, Just general stuff. Don't 146 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: you say, oh how much a page? No, no, no, no, 147 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 2: just just whatever whatever strikes you. And then you'll send 148 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: me something and just pretend it's twenty five pages about 149 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: how you hate your boyfriend. And I didn't ask you 150 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: about your boyfriend. You've just written twenty five pages about 151 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 2: your boody boyfriend. Someone else could write back, and there's 152 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 2: one page. I want to be richer? Yeah, or I 153 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 2: hate my boss? Is you learn so much without it? 154 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: Is to absolutely hold myself to the principle of having 155 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 2: no assumptions. So I could look at you and go 156 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 2: I could tell I could tell you what your issues 157 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: are just from looking at you on the screen. You go, no, no, 158 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: you can't, Nigel, let her talk, Let her talk. When 159 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 2: she finishes, don't say anything. She'll talk again. And when 160 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 2: she finishes and she doesn't say anything, just prompt her 161 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: and say, tell me more about that. Amant to the 162 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: thing about you're not being fully satisfied about your career? 163 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 2: What does and then you talk again? You talk again, 164 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 2: you talk, don't have any Oh gosh, I can't wait 165 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 2: to come in with my advice about the main thing. No, no, 166 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: no, no no. I might have a client who's completely clear 167 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 2: on what the main thing is, totally clear, but they've 168 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: got another problem. So I just it's a loving act 169 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 2: of being fully present and engaging and not knowing the answer. 170 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 2: I never know the answer but not knowing where I'm 171 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: going to go next until I feel I've fully fully 172 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: drawn out of whoever it is I'm consulting or coaching, 173 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: where they are currently at and what is important to them? 174 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: What are some other questions that you use to tease. 175 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 2: That at whether they sort of build from the first response? 176 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 2: Does that? Does that make sense? So I haven't got 177 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: set ones. So if you just pretend you're a medium 178 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 2: sized business owner and you say it just really, We've 179 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 2: got a great product and everything, but it's just the operations. 180 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: I can't get the supply chain to work. Or everyone 181 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 2: loves our product and we've got lots of sales, but 182 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 2: I just can't make it profitable. And then I dig 183 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: deeper on the thing that they have raised, and the 184 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: question again, I recommend Nancy Clein's work and listen to 185 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: the episode next week. Is that the I mean, but 186 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: you're you're an expert. This I'm an amateur, you're an expert. 187 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: It is the wonderful power of saying tell me more. 188 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: And if you could actually even discipline yourself not to 189 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 2: use the word about, So don't say why, and don't 190 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: say tell me more about. And it's incredibly hard amanth. 191 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 2: But but you, you know, you crap on about oh 192 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 2: my gosh, I'm really unhappy with my boyfriend, and then 193 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 2: you finish and tell me more. Now, obviously I'm asking 194 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 2: you about your boyfriend because that's what you've just been 195 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: talking about. But I don't say, tell me more about 196 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: your boyfriend. I say, tell me more, and then you 197 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: probably will. You will. Actually, Yeah, when I say I'm 198 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: really annoyed about what he does, what I mean I'm 199 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 2: really really annoyed about on a Tuesday, when he and 200 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 2: you go deeper and deeper and deeper on the actual thing. 201 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 2: If I keep on, it's cooled. I mean, you've probably 202 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: got the proper phrase for it. But generative listening, generative attention. 203 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: So you so there isn't. It's against my philosophy to 204 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: have a set bunch of questions, I mean, beyond really 205 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: obvious ones like tell me about yourself or what's on 206 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: your mind, or how's it going, or you know, what's 207 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: been working well recently what's been working less well? I 208 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: shouldn't be giving you this advice. 209 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: Well, I would like you to tell me more about 210 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: ignoring your advice, sorry, Nige, about how you divide your 211 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: life into three trimesters. Can you tell me about that? 212 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I just have you heard of Poma, 213 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 2: one of my favorite charts. I haven't. I don't present 214 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 2: with any charts when I do my speeches, so I 215 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: haven't got any snow. Was asked we'd send slides and 216 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 2: if they insist, I send them one that just has 217 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 2: capital p io m A written on it. Are you 218 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: familiar with this? No, it's a little known business philosophy 219 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: called pulled it out my ass Hah. Yeah. So I 220 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 2: just look at my life because I happen to be 221 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: turning sixty, and it makes sense to me, but I'm 222 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 2: not saying it does to anyone else. To look at 223 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: your life in the thirds. And you could say learn, 224 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 2: earn return. So you spend the first third sort of learning, 225 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,719 Speaker 2: I mean officially learning at school, but also learning how 226 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 2: to get dressed, drive, you know, have a relationship, whatever, 227 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 2: blah blah blah. And then the middle bit doing what 228 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: you're doing, you know, running around, hard working, earning money, 229 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 2: looking after you loved ones, building business is absolutely fantastic. 230 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 2: And then wherever you define and for Rupert Murdock, it's 231 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 2: probably ninety three and Martin sorrel. It's ninety seven or 232 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 2: never a return thing where you return to the woman 233 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 2: you wanted to be in the first place, and you 234 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 2: haven't got all ten children to look after. In six mortgages, 235 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: you can actually think about how you're going to feel 236 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 2: the twenty summers that you've got left on this earth. 237 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: You know, how you're going to make a contribution, how 238 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: you're going to whatever. So that's and I'm just making 239 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: it up, but it feels intuitively that it's got some sense. 240 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 2: Is you go through you know, you're a child, you're 241 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 2: an adult, and then you're an old adult. And I 242 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: don't think old is bad. I think old is completely fine. 243 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: I mean, actually it should be the best part of 244 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: your life. So I just choose to look at my 245 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: life in that way. And I find that the Japanese 246 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: are a phrase for this can reky what is can recky? 247 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: How Japanese celebrate the sixth birthday. So it is a 248 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: culturally recognized thing as you come into the autumn of 249 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: your life. And for me, part of my book Smart 250 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: Stupid than sixty is leaning into that. If I can 251 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 2: use that revolting phrase where you engage with it and 252 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 2: go yipee. I am coming into the autumn of my life. 253 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: So how have you done that? Like, because in your 254 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: book you write about preparing for the third trimester in 255 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: the second trimester, So what were the steps that you 256 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: took to do that in your own life? 257 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: So this is and I don't want to see a 258 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: grown woman cry or upset any of your listeners, But 259 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: I wow, here we go. Is the book? I mean 260 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 2: perfect for Christmas, I should add. But the book, although 261 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 2: you know lots of people will buy it for people's 262 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: you know, uncles who are turning sixty or whatever, it 263 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: actually should be read by forty year olds because I 264 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: mean one level is you get to your deathbed and 265 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 2: you go, what was all that for? I've wasted the 266 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: last twenty years of my life. I should have been 267 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 2: having more holidays, more sex, more fun. Instead I was 268 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 2: building my pension up. Great, I've got no friends and 269 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 2: got no memories. You know, well done. Another level is 270 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 2: you get to sixty and you say, I now need 271 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: to attend to some proper things in my life. I'm 272 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: going to take up gulf and basket weaving and be 273 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: nicer to my wife. Oh gosh, he's left me. But 274 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: that's better than the first option, and you lay down 275 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: some fundamental foundations in your life, friendship, contribution, you know, 276 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: rewarding meaningful things, experiences, not possessions. But the real answer 277 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: is never letting those foundations go. That's the real answer. 278 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: And that now, obviously we can't get in the bloody 279 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 2: time machine. Now, I was lucky because I lost my 280 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: job when I was forty. I didn't think I was lucky, 281 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: but I was lucky. So I've always been thinking about 282 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: the point of life ever since I studied theology and 283 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 2: all that stuff. But you know, life is busy and 284 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 2: stressful and not easy, especially with four kids and moving 285 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,479 Speaker 2: countries and all that competitive, stressful industry. But the people 286 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 2: who really have cracked it, and you have to be 287 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 2: superhumanly brilliant to do this, is they never change from 288 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 2: that cheery, happy, fun kind seventeen year old, and they 289 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: work at something that they can stay being that fun kind, 290 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: cheery seventeen year old even when they're twenty seven and 291 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 2: then thirty seven, so when they get to be fifty seven, 292 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 2: they don't go, gosh. I've over the last three decades 293 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 2: to turn myself into a husk of a person where 294 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 2: did it go. I'll try and get back to you know, 295 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 2: I'll call up my old university mates that I haven't 296 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 2: spoken to in forty years. So it's a long way 297 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 2: come around. You answer is, I've I don't subscribe to 298 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 2: the you know, the Reginald Perin working in account seat firm, 299 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: and you hate it until you're sixty and then retire 300 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 2: and suddenly take up golf. You know, it's not really 301 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 2: where it's at is laid down some foundations, or more importantly, 302 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 2: don't get rid of those foundations, so friendships, relationships, interests, whatever. 303 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 2: So over the last twenty years, for me, I have 304 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: worked very, very very hard at not letting anyone who 305 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 2: I don't admire being my boss. And when I mean 306 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 2: being my boss, I don't just mean being my literal boss, 307 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: but actually having control over me. You know that horrible 308 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 2: situation where you work in a I'll mat I'll make 309 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: it up. I won't mention any names, Goldman, Sachs or whatever. 310 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: You just attend you're working somewhere and you don't like 311 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 2: where you're working, and your boss leans over your desk 312 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 2: and goes listen, dipshit. You've got no choice because I 313 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 2: know you've got a large mortgage and three children in 314 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 2: private school, says, suck it up, sweet caches and do 315 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 2: the next deal. And I'd like to get to say 316 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: at that stage, how about you range the words often 317 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 2: fuck and apply them to yourself because I don't like this. Yeah, 318 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 2: so it's just to be in charge of designing your 319 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: own life. But within the real world, we've got to 320 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 2: work hard, we've all got to make compromises, and you 321 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 2: can't have everything. So it's a long answer to your question. 322 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: But since the age of forty, I've taken it very, 323 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: very seriously to maintain and nurture but also to develop 324 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 2: new ones. I never was an author. I'm now giving 325 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: talks about my fourth book. I never was a podcaster. 326 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 2: I now spend lots of time doing podcasting. I never 327 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: was a coach. Is to try to lay down things 328 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 2: that I find interesting and rewarding, that I think make 329 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 2: a small little contribution to the world, rather than and 330 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with this, by the way, being an 331 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 2: account director in an advertising agency, which is a perfectly 332 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 2: wonderful thing to be and I used to be that. 333 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 2: But if I'd never developed anything else, well, then when 334 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: you lose the account that you work on. You're rooted. 335 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 2: You can't fall back on your coaching, income speaking, income author, 336 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: income podcast, income consulting income. You haven't, you know, you 337 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 2: have to go around begging the other agency that's won 338 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 2: the account to be I've been driven by a terror 339 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 2: of Justin And when I say a count director, I 340 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 2: mean managing director and CEO, because that's all you are anyway. 341 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 2: When you do that, you're sort of at the mercy 342 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 2: of other people who don't give two hoops about you. 343 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: We will be back with Nigel soon talking about how 344 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: he has deliberately nurtured friendships in preparation for his third trimester. 345 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 346 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: that you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that 347 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 1: contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me 348 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving 349 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: through the interesting research findings. You can sign up for 350 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: that at Howiwork dot code. That's how I work dot co. 351 00:20:55,080 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: What about friendships, like, how have you deliberately nurtured should 352 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: friendships to prepare for the third trimester? 353 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 2: Well, oh, dear, you're going to trigger me? Is I? 354 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: I often think I do friendship wrong, and that I 355 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I adore all my friends, and 356 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 2: I've got varied friends and they're very valuable to me. 357 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 2: But I'm an unusual case unusual schooling, you know, center 358 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 2: boarding school at the age of five in another country, 359 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: and then you give up drink and then you emigrate 360 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 2: around the world. So it's not really conducive to having 361 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 2: you know, I look at my kids and their mates 362 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 2: still with the people they went to primary school with. Well, 363 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 2: of course they are because the primary I can see 364 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: out the window the primary school and they live in Sydney, 365 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 2: and you know, that's a lovely thing. So that that 366 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: Thomas the tank Engine Island of Soda version of friendship 367 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 2: or cheers or whatever, that I secretly envy and feel 368 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 2: slightly lesser because I haven't got it is something that 369 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 2: I've had to work an out. So I don't know 370 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 2: anyone from my prep school anybody, I mean, I mean, 371 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 2: I don't know anyone from my high school. I've got 372 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 2: mates from university and so it's just to be aware 373 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: of it and nurture it and water it. So I 374 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 2: I you know, I don't prioritize work over friends. If 375 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: that makes sense. I probably do it the other way around. 376 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: How do you do that in practice. 377 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 2: Where you judge people by it? It's pretty when you 378 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 2: go actions reveal intent. But I hear some people saying 379 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 2: things about parenting or friends. But then you look at 380 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 2: what they actually do and you go, well, but that's 381 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 2: not what you say. So it's like people who are 382 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 2: I don't know. Again, let's use the diet example, because 383 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 2: that's easier. You know, I'm really keen to lose weights, 384 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: and you go, when you're hoeing into a bowl of chips, 385 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: you know, not that keen? Then oh, you mean you're 386 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 2: keen to do it if it's really easy and pleasant 387 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 2: and doesn't involve any discipline or sacrifice. Right, Okay, I 388 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:12,199 Speaker 2: understand it. So I would I will lose business and 389 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 2: lose money and prioritize friends. And you go, well, well, 390 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 2: so what of course you would? So I mean I 391 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 2: would give you anxiety? How to say it is? I 392 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 2: am there's just an important wedding and a mother in 393 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 2: law birthday, and for a whole variety of reasons, I'm 394 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 2: going to be in Europe for a month next year, 395 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 2: and someone will call up and say, great news. Niger 396 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 2: We've got two gigs for you in America, and that's 397 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 2: going to you know, the American people pay more than 398 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: anyone else in my little life. And I'll go, well, 399 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 2: I can't do them well, and of course I can't 400 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: do them. I'm going to Mary's. But I mean, I 401 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 2: mean it doesn't as opposed to oh well in that case, 402 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: and you go, well, so, so Ellie's wedding is not 403 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 2: that important to you, then it's important if nothing else 404 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 2: is in the calends. Yeah. So there's something if one 405 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 2: were to get to some of the things that I 406 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 2: hold myself to is that there's four values. I've never 407 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: told anyone this. Here we go exclusive on how I work, 408 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 2: but again it only works for me. Holdes off through discipline, honesty, 409 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: hard work, humility. Yeah, okay, you know it's not I mean, 410 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: everyone's got their own versions of it, but I reckon 411 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: those four aren't aren't bad if you know, in whatever 412 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 2: conversational situation you're in, are are you living your life 413 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 2: and your endeavor true to those four? 414 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: Something you wrote about in Smart, Stiffend and sixty, which 415 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: is your latest book, which I just loved. Although you 416 00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: know that, but I feel like I need to tell 417 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: you that. Well, we're recording, so listeners say, Christmas present, 418 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: Amantha did, I did? Oh what a brilliant Christmas present. 419 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: So something you write about is that you had to 420 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: accept that your most in inverted commas conventionally successful days 421 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: might be behind you, kind of referring, I guess to 422 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,959 Speaker 1: those you know objective career peaks like being a CEO, 423 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: for example, And I would love to know what what 424 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: that felt like when you came to that realization. How 425 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: did you get there as well? 426 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 2: Well, well I got there really easily, just by opening 427 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 2: my eyes as I drive around in my Kia Rio 428 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 2: watching twenty seven year olds in the aston margin and 429 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 2: as I read the press of some knob jockey in 430 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 2: New York has just been made, so understanding it is 431 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 2: completely easier. I actually am. They're all lovely people that 432 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 2: I judge to think called the efies recently one of 433 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 2: the you know, one of the judges. And then for 434 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 2: some reason I'd accepted to go to the actual awards 435 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 2: and present an award, which I usually just judge and 436 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 2: don't go to the thing. But it's brilliant just walking 437 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 2: around going you know, there's all these people thrusting positioning 438 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: telling you you know whatever, and you go. So that's 439 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 2: where the action is, and that's completely fine. I mean 440 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 2: I'm sitting there in my second hand clothes wanting to 441 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: take an early TAXI. So it comes back to those 442 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 2: four values, you know, honesty, humility. Just be clear. I 443 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 2: do not run a multinational company with fifteen thousand employees. 444 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 2: I have one employee. You're talking to him, and then 445 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 2: I think the second part of the question is how 446 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 2: does that feel. It feels great, it feels fantastic. I 447 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 2: wouldn't swat places in a million years, I think the 448 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 2: I think the key again back to those four values 449 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 2: I spoke about, is the honesty part. So what you 450 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 2: can do is you can be a little bit oppositional 451 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: and go who that person not very good, really and 452 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 2: that firm that they run isn't very no, no, no, she 453 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: is really really bright and really successful and earns lots 454 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: and lots of money and is very powerful. Those are 455 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 2: all the facts, and more so than me, and you 456 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 2: are great as opposed to having to the Only way 457 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 2: you can be comfortable with it is deny that that 458 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: he or she is. Does that make sense? You can 459 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 2: go Rupert Murdoch has much, much, much more money and 460 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 2: power than I do. But nudge. 461 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,959 Speaker 1: What I'm wondering, like, how do you transfer? Because I 462 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: imagine you know, and we know each other when you 463 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: were CEO of Leo Bennett and I was a mere 464 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: minion on the on the on the shop floor looking 465 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: really it was I, but you were you were you 466 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: were the best CEO that I've ever experienced working for. 467 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: And I say that, you know, not just because I'm 468 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: talking to you, but like, as a CEO, I would 469 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: imagine that you attach so much of your self identity 470 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 1: to that role and to what you do for work. 471 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: How did you almost attach that and come not to 472 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: measure your life by things that are you know, sort 473 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: of obviously successful. 474 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 2: So gosh, that certain. That's a that's a very good question. 475 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 2: It is. One answer is the fat, forty and fard experience? 476 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 2: Where where from? Then? I worked at it a lot. 477 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: I didn't want that to be my identity. I was 478 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 2: very committed to trying to do the best job I 479 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: could and be good at that job, but not make 480 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 2: it me post. I mean, you know, I people might 481 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: forget if they know me in Australia, But before I 482 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: was a straight down the line conventional career warrior. So 483 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: I've done that, and the way I was rewarded was 484 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: I was made redundant. So that's a useful lesson. You 485 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 2: go what I did, what everyone else said, and I 486 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 2: bade the rules and I got flipped onto the scrapping. 487 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 2: So then when you met me at Liabnette, that was 488 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 2: post my year off, having done some reflection and coming 489 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 2: back so different to if you'd known me when I 490 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 2: was the CEO of my first agency in you know, 491 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: straight up and still hopefully good at it in a 492 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: nice bloke. But I was, you know, I hadn't done 493 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: the serious, proper, proper reflection of how I wanted to be. 494 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 2: But a second part to this is me giving up 495 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 2: drinking was quite a instructive process in other areas of 496 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 2: my life. So I haven't had a drink in twenty years, 497 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 2: and when I hadn't, I give up drink before I 498 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 2: took over Leabnette as a CEO. And the process of 499 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: giving up drink, which was not easy if you had 500 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: based your life around alcohol, which I had for the 501 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 2: previous forty years, you discover that it's down to you. 502 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: And so it's about I learned about putting meaningful, permanent 503 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: change into your life. It just happened to be. I 504 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 2: learned it about drink. You go, if I'm going to 505 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: make this fundamental shift in my life, I can't be 506 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 2: doing it for the affirmation, attention and approval of other people. 507 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 2: And I can't be doing it expecting the support of 508 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 2: other people. I mean, nice if I got it, but 509 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 2: I can't be expecting it's a real proper this is 510 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 2: you know, if it is to be, it is up 511 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 2: to me type deal. And I meant it. So I 512 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: gave up drink. And you know, idiots would try and 513 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 2: get me to drink or mock me for not drinking, 514 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 2: or I wouldn't be able to go and have friendly 515 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 2: you know, nights out or whatever. But it was you know, 516 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 2: this is going to happen. The main thing is the 517 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: main thing, the main thing, And that experience helped me 518 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 2: in a secret passionate bid not to fall into the 519 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: trap that you're talking about, Nigel. 520 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: For people that want to get a great Christmas present 521 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: for their friends, family loved ones, what should they buy 522 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: and where can they get it? 523 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 2: From a time wise in all. 524 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: And they should also pick up a copy of Smart 525 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: Stupid and sixty, which is your latest book. I mean, 526 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: all your books are brilliant. I'm such a I'm such 527 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: a fan of your writing. I just you know, your 528 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: latest book, like your other ones, they it literally made 529 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: me laugh and cry and think differently about things. It's 530 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: it was just it's one. It was just wonderful. You 531 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: obviously do other things, Nige. How else can people track 532 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: you down? 533 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 2: Gosh so well? The thing I'm very I mean, I'm 534 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 2: passionate about all the things I do, and I've got 535 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 2: a website. I don't even know it's I think it's 536 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 2: nigelmash dot com. But if you find an underwater photographer, 537 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 2: that's not me. I'm the ugly bloke who doesn't do 538 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 2: it's nigelmass dot com and check it's not a photographer, 539 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 2: but maybe one of the places. Obviously, I'm thrilled to 540 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 2: people buy Small, Stupid and sixty. Thank you for saying 541 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: nice things. But it's check out my podcast, The Five 542 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 2: of My Life. I just adore where that's going and 543 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 2: how that's building. It's a lovely community. And I do 544 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 2: this thing where you know, I've given you a hard 545 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: time in the past because you don't answer emails it is. 546 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 2: I answer every single email that gets sent to me, 547 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: and people can send me emails, whether it's about coaching 548 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: or speaking or West Day Second or the Sydney Skinny 549 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 2: that's coming back next year for the tenth anniversary. So 550 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: if anyone is in any way moved to talk to 551 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 2: me or ask me a question or herl abuse at me, 552 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 2: go to my website and I will and I will reply. 553 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: Have I told you the story about lady? I posted 554 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 2: it on Instagram because I found it hilarious. Who she 555 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 2: sent me an email by my website and it was Nigel. 556 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 2: I have to let you know I've just finished fifty 557 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 2: and Yadder Yadder. So the insult in that you know, 558 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: as in you clearly know the title, but you're not. 559 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 2: You know, it's it's Amantha. You do how I, how 560 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,719 Speaker 2: I whatever, work whatever? You know. I've just finished fifty 561 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 2: and yadda Yadder. I picked it up at the Mildura 562 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 2: Airport Free Book Exchange and I have to say on 563 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 2: page one hundred and sixty, I couldn't help thinking I 564 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 2: wish he'd wish his wife would write one, because that's 565 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 2: when I'd pay for There you go. So, but I 566 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 2: replied to her, I said, thank you very much indeed 567 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: for taking the time you know to write. I'll let 568 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 2: Kate know she's got a guaranteed sale if she puts 569 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 2: pen to paper. You can also write to me and 570 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 2: say nice things please. 571 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: I hope that this chat got you thinking differently about 572 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: your third trimester, or perhaps you're already in it right now. 573 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: I know that for me, I wrap so much of 574 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: my identity up in what I do and what the 575 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 1: work I do brings to the world that I would 576 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: feel really lost if, say, overnight, I was unable to 577 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: work or forced into retirement. I know that when I 578 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: was younger, I had goals around financial independence so that 579 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: I could retire when I was young, but I found 580 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: these goals have shifted because I can't imagine not wanting 581 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: to work because it brings me a lot of joy. 582 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: Not every day, of course, but definitely more days than not. 583 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing part of your day with me 584 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: by listening to how I work. If you're keen for 585 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: more tips on how to work better, connect with me 586 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just 587 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: search for Amantha Gimba. How I Work was recorded on 588 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: the Traditional Land of the Warrenery people, part of the 589 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: cool and nation. I am so grateful for being able 590 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: to work and live on this beautiful land, and I 591 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: want to pay my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging. 592 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventium with production support 593 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was 594 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba who did 595 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: the audio mix and makes everything sound better than it 596 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: would have otherwise.