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Speaker 1: Care that has to be earned, isn't worthy of being

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Speaker 1: called care.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just one's answers Now. I'm doctor Justin Coulson,

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Speaker 2: author of six books about raising happy families, and as

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Speaker 2: always my delightful, beautiful, oneful co host who I absolutely adore,

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Speaker 2: who happens to also be my wife, missus Happy Families, Kylie.

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Speaker 2: We've got six kids, six daughters between us. It's an

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Speaker 2: exciting day. I'm really excited for what we're doing on

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Speaker 2: the podcast today.

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Speaker 3: Well, we just recently had Alfie Kohane on our podcast,

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Speaker 3: author of Punished by Rewards, and we had so much

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Speaker 3: fun with him. We had to have him back. So

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Speaker 3: knowledgeable he is, and in his book he outlines the

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Speaker 3: downfalls of using not only punishment but also rewards when

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Speaker 3: we're trying to get our kids to do what we

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Speaker 3: want them to do.

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Speaker 1: The research is very clear rewards, like punishments, can only

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Speaker 1: get temporary compliance, and in both cases they repard moral

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Speaker 1: and social and intellectual development.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's such a great conversation we had last time, Alfie.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so very very much for joining us. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to let Kylie kick this off talking about your book,

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Speaker 2: Unconditional Parenting.

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Speaker 3: Can you share with us the difference between conditional and

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Speaker 3: unconditional parenting.

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Speaker 1: Kids need more than just to be loved, and even

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Speaker 1: more than to be loved a lot. They need to

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Speaker 1: be loved for who they are or rather than for

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Speaker 1: what they do. Conditionality means we have strings attached where

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Speaker 1: we give kids more attention or acknowledgment or approval or

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Speaker 1: as it feels to them, care, when they have either

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Speaker 1: pleased us or impressed us, when they are well behaved,

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Speaker 1: when they do well in school or in sports, when

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Speaker 1: they don't embarrass us in front of our friends, when whatever.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out, according to a fair amount of research,

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Speaker 1: that whenever kids feel as if there are strings attached

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Speaker 1: to their parents' love, that really gets in the way

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Speaker 1: of healthy development. The fact that all parents and I

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Speaker 1: agree with what you said at the outset. If you

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Speaker 1: ask them, most parents would say, well, of course, I

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Speaker 1: love my kid unconditionally, no matter what. That belief on

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Speaker 1: the part of the parent is irrelevant in predicting outcomes

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Speaker 1: for children. What matters is how the child experiences it,

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Speaker 1: and if the child sees us giving them high fives

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Speaker 1: and fist bumps and smiles and hugs only when X,

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Speaker 1: and that X might be their being well behaved or

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Speaker 1: doing well in school, whatever. That's a big problem because

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Speaker 1: then the child comes to think I'm only lovable, not

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Speaker 1: just loved when I'm smart, quiet and docile, funny, pretty,

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Speaker 1: or whatever the condition is that's been attached here. And

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Speaker 1: thus the key to effective parenting is never to offer

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Speaker 1: kids something that feels like conditional or contingent affection. And

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Speaker 1: the two most obvious versions of conditional parenting, the kind

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Speaker 1: that does such harm is praise, positive reinforcement, and it's

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Speaker 1: flip side time out, which is where we literally separate

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Speaker 1: the child from us physically when the child hasn't pleased us.

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Speaker 1: That's what conditional parenting looks like, and that's what we

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Speaker 1: should try to avoid.

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Speaker 2: So a couple of things that that's prompted for me.

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Speaker 2: First of all, we're not going to have time today

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Speaker 2: to talk about time out and probably even praise if

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Speaker 2: I'm frank, just because of the way this podcast works.

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Speaker 2: But I would love to get you back to talk

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Speaker 2: about time out because I think it's such a hot

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Speaker 2: button issue that parents really really want to explore. So

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Speaker 2: you've been generous in talking to us, and I'd love

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Speaker 2: to do that. I ran a webinar a couple of

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Speaker 2: month months ago about praise, and we had one of

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Speaker 2: the highest responses to that webinar that we've ever had,

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Speaker 2: talking about the perils of praise and how it can undermine.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to refer people back to that webinar.

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Speaker 2: It's available in the Happy Family store if they want

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Speaker 2: to find out the problems with praise and why we

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Speaker 2: want to be very careful in the way we do that.

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Speaker 2: But I do want to pick up on what you've

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Speaker 2: just said about that conditionality and share two anecdotes. One

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Speaker 2: of them is a parent something that a parent shared

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Speaker 2: with me, and one of them is a personal one.

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Speaker 2: Every now and again, I do get a little bit

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Speaker 2: personal because I've had a wonderful experience that I like

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Speaker 2: to share, or sometimes I've failed and I want to

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Speaker 2: share that. Let me start with the anecdote that came

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Speaker 2: from a person who spoke to me about this topic.

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Speaker 2: We were talking about the idea of conditionality and praise,

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Speaker 2: and this gentleman said to me that they were a

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Speaker 2: church going family and every Sunday he would comment to

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Speaker 2: his daughter, you look so beautiful in that dress. No

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Speaker 2: matter what dress she was wearing, he would comment on

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Speaker 2: her beautiful appearance, and till one day when she walked

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Speaker 2: into his room, not on a Sunday, but on another day,

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Speaker 2: and of course he didn't make the comment about the

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Speaker 2: dress because she was wearing the dress. She looked at

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Speaker 2: him and said, Daddy, am I only beautiful.

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Speaker 4: When I wear a dress? Because that's the only time

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Speaker 4: you tell me that I'm beautiful. There's that sense that

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Speaker 4: he didn't.

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Speaker 2: He thought he was being a lovely, delightful, engaged, loving,

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Speaker 2: unconditional father who was praising and sharing the joy that

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Speaker 2: he saw in his daughter's presence. But she was hearing

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Speaker 2: it so differently. She was hearing it that it's kind

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Speaker 2: of like the child that says, do I only draw

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Speaker 2: beautiful pictures when I've done this and not that. The

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Speaker 2: other one that I guess takes us in a totally

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Speaker 2: different direction was on our recent Father's Day. I just

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Speaker 2: I had this experience, and it may bring tears to

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Speaker 2: my eyes even as I recall it now.

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Speaker 4: My children filled in a little booklet.

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Speaker 2: That talked about my dad does this my dad favorite

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Speaker 2: words that my dad says to me, the kinds of

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Speaker 2: things that we do together, you know, all those kinds

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Speaker 2: of reminiscences about what my kids love doing with me.

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Speaker 2: I have six kids, so obviously I had six of

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Speaker 2: these booklets to go through and it was just a delight.

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Speaker 4: Even my son in law field and it was wonderful.

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Speaker 2: But my thirteen year old daughter on the page that

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Speaker 2: said I know my dad loves me because she wrote,

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Speaker 2: I'm me and that's all he wants me to be.

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Speaker 4: And I had that moment Alfie where I just thought.

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Speaker 2: I think I might be getting this right, because even

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Speaker 2: tho I've written the books and things, you still have

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Speaker 2: moments where you think, oh my goodness, these kids are

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Speaker 2: really hard work and I don't.

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Speaker 4: Know if I'm doing it right all the time.

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Speaker 2: But to get that feedback, I thought, that's the essence

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Speaker 2: of unconditionality, right.

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Speaker 4: They love me because I'm me and that's all I

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Speaker 4: need to be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And in fact, some research has asked young adults,

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Speaker 1: you know, did you ever feel like your parents loved

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Speaker 1: you more when you, you know, hid your anger or sadness,

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Speaker 1: when you did well in school, when you were well

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Speaker 1: behaved and so on, And that was tapping that. So

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Speaker 1: you got a spontaneous bit of premature feedback in exactly

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Speaker 1: the way that we would hope for. So it's what

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Speaker 1: the child thinks, how they experience that, that's that's important.

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Speaker 1: Conditional parenting, unfortunately, is what many parenting writers are proposing

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Speaker 1: to us variations of you know, don't punish reward, or

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Speaker 1: don't give them tangible rewards, give them verbal rewards something bad, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: or you know, when they're doing something obnoxious, don't pay

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Speaker 1: attention to them, ignore them, which is just horrible to

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Speaker 1: think about this, that even my very attention, my presence

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Speaker 1: is contingent on your behavior. That becomes an economic transaction.

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Speaker 1: And one would hope that the family would be would

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Speaker 1: be an escape where there would be care that never had.

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Speaker 1: Care that has to be earned, isn't worthy of being

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Speaker 1: called care, And most traditional discipline is about exactly that.

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Speaker 1: And I should add very quickly, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: you said, and of course in your other podcast about praise,

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Speaker 1: but most people who criticize praise come at it from

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Speaker 1: a very conservative direction, where they say the problem is

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Speaker 1: we're getting praise too often or too easily, and it

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Speaker 1: should be harder for kids to earn that, and that

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Speaker 1: is exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. The problem

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Speaker 1: is praise itself, like other rewards and punishments that are

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Speaker 1: ways of doing things to children in order to get them.

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Speaker 1: And what we praise kids for doing, for example, for

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Speaker 1: making an effort rather than just being smart again misses

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Speaker 1: the point here. All of this is about sugar coated control.

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Speaker 1: And as I learned after I had written a book

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Speaker 1: about what's wrong with rewards and punishments, looking at what

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Speaker 1: we talked about last week about motivation now, I came

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Speaker 1: to realize there's a whole nother layer of problems here,

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Speaker 1: which is that in addition to undermining kids desire to

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Speaker 1: be helpful or desire to draw or code or whatever

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Speaker 1: by getting rewards or praise for it, the other set

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Speaker 1: of problems has to do with how rewards and punishments

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Speaker 1: communicate conditionality. I love you, I'm excited by you only

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Speaker 1: when you do this, and so part of what makes

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Speaker 1: parents rise to their potential as parents is to make

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Speaker 1: sure that there are never strings attached and kids never

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Speaker 1: experienced it that way, that we love them for no

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Speaker 1: damn good reason.

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Speaker 3: I just absolutely love what we're talking about today, Alfie.

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Speaker 3: But I'd love it if you could help me as

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Speaker 3: a parent with some tips that I can use when

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Speaker 3: I'm dealing with really tough stuff. How do I reach

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Speaker 3: my children with unconditional parenting in those times where I

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Speaker 3: just am ready to lose it?

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Speaker 1: One is to do more asking and less telling. The

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Speaker 1: more we can elicit the experience of our children, get

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Speaker 1: their perspective how things that are going on field to them,

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Speaker 1: the more likely it is we can respond with helpful

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Speaker 1: guidance that's supported by a kind of foundation of unconditional support.

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Speaker 1: You know, I mean as I like to say about

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Speaker 1: about praise. If praise is offered, if there's unconditional love present,

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Speaker 1: praise is unnecessary. And if unconditional unconditional love is not present,

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Speaker 1: praise certainly isn't going to help. A second thing we

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Speaker 1: can do is to actively do that perspective, taking put

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Speaker 1: our Even if we have trouble drawing our kids out

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Speaker 1: and sharing, maybe because they're too young or too skeptical

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Speaker 1: of our willingness to hear what they're really thinking, we

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Speaker 1: can try to, as a mental exercise, think what what

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Speaker 1: if I were her? How would I have heard what

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Speaker 1: I just said, it's not just what I like it

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Speaker 1: if somebody said that to me, it's would I like

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Speaker 1: it if I were her and somebody said that or

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Speaker 1: did that to me. And the more we can put

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Speaker 1: ourselves not just in the shoes, but in the feet

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Speaker 1: of our children, the more likely it is that we

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Speaker 1: will be doing that unconditional support. And then I guess

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Speaker 1: my third suggestion would be, if you're lucky enough to

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Speaker 1: have a co parent, have that person check you, watch you,

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Speaker 1: offer you feedback, and whether you have that co parent

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Speaker 1: or not, bring your child along and say, honey, if

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Speaker 1: I ever do something like I think what I did

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Speaker 1: last Thursday that made you feel really bad, tell me

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Speaker 1: about it. I want to know so I can get

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Speaker 1: better as your dad or mom.

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Speaker 4: I love this.

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Speaker 2: I feel so compassionate, and thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: these generous pieces of wisdom that you've shared.

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Speaker 4: Thanks again for joining us, Selfie, you bet.

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Speaker 3: I just loved it. Elfie's thoughts around this concept of

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Speaker 3: unconditional parenting and that story about one of our daughters

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Speaker 3: and her note to you on Father's Day about you

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Speaker 3: wanting her to be herself bring dis my eye. Every

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Speaker 3: time I hear it.

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Speaker 4: I love the story.

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Speaker 2: I just I mean it was one of the best

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Speaker 2: Father's Day gifts that I could ever have. If you'd

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Speaker 2: like to know more about what we've been discussing, the

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Speaker 2: two books that I think you want to add to

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Speaker 2: your Christmas list or your book reading list, stick them

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Speaker 2: on your bedside table and start to make your way

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Speaker 2: through them. They're not actually books by me, they're books

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Speaker 2: by Alfie. Please have a look at Punished by Rewards

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Speaker 2: and Unconditional Parenting. We'll link to them in the show notes,

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Speaker 2: and what we'll also do is put them into the

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Speaker 2: Things we Love part of the Happy Families shop. So

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Speaker 2: if you go into Happy Families dot com dot you

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Speaker 2: click on the link to Things we Love and we'll

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Speaker 2: make sure that they're there for you as well, make

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Speaker 2: it nice and easy for you to pick them up.

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Speaker 2: I think that they might just change your life, but

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Speaker 2: be prepared. There's some pretty heavy lifting in those books. Well,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for being a part of the

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Speaker 2: Happy Family's podcast. We love having you listen. We love

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Speaker 2: getting your reviews as well. Thanks for sending those five

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Speaker 2: star reviews through. We love to share them with everyone

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Speaker 2: and we appreciate you doing that because it helps other

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Speaker 2: people to find out about the podcast. If you would

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Speaker 2: like to know more about how we can help to

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Speaker 2: make your family flourish, please check out happyfamilies dot com

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Speaker 2: dot au. That's where you can find out about our memberships.

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Speaker 2: Were also on Instagram and you can check us out

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Speaker 2: at Facebook. Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families Hi