Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty eight, a writer by the name of
Speaker 1: Truman Capote heard of him had the idea to write
Speaker 1: what he called the first non fiction novel, in which
Speaker 1: he wanted to take on a real life event and
Speaker 1: turn it into a story. He just couldn't find the
Speaker 1: right subjects. That was until one day when he opened
Speaker 1: the newspaper in nineteen fifty nine and saw in the
Speaker 1: New York Times that a farmer and his entire family
Speaker 1: from Kansas had been murdered in their home with no suspects.
Speaker 1: So Capodi and his good friend Harpily went out to
Speaker 1: Kansas and began to investigate and deep dive into this
Speaker 1: family's lives and their tragic deaths. He would be there
Speaker 1: for the capture of their killers and many many years after,
Speaker 1: and this story would go on to become the one
Speaker 1: and only novel in Cold.
Speaker 2: In Cold Blood, I love this book so much.
Speaker 1: Well, today we're talking about this story behind the book,
Speaker 1: the Clutter family murders.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, Hey, can I start this today's episode with
Speaker 3: the cheers?
Speaker 1: I'm too far away back to do. Let's do this ready, two?
Speaker 4: Three cheers.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another crime podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm Georgia Love I'm Shemmy Peterson.
Speaker 1: I'm a journalist.
Speaker 2: I am not.
Speaker 1: And if you just want to hear the story about
Speaker 1: the Clutter family murders today, you can skip ahead through
Speaker 1: our banter or past our banter. The time coat is
Speaker 1: in the show notes. But thank you so much. I've
Speaker 1: been doing it for you now. Yeah, and I have
Speaker 1: missed some episodes, but you have not. You've been on
Speaker 1: every episode, every episode. No, we did one in Adelaide.
Speaker 2: Oh that's true.
Speaker 1: I've spoken about himough because you're obsessed with her.
Speaker 2: But he was on FaceTime the whole time.
Speaker 1: That's true.
Speaker 2: He's having a drink of water really loudly in the background.
Speaker 1: Saving Peterson. Do you notice anything different about me today?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 2: You aren't wearing shoes. Who are you to mintionin? You're
Speaker 2: wearing a beautiful miss Piggy T shirt today.
Speaker 1: So, dear listeners, if you were listening, I should say
Speaker 1: when you were listening to our one year anniversary episode
Speaker 1: with special guests Oliver Clark and Myth Warhurst, you would
Speaker 1: have heard me say I had ordered a special T
Speaker 1: shirt to wear on that episode, because it cast your
Speaker 1: mind's back to when we had Myth Warhurst on her
Speaker 1: first Thursday episode, we was being about Miss Goddamn Piggy
Speaker 1: and MIF said she was her icon growing up and
Speaker 1: still is to this day now. The T shirt did
Speaker 1: not arrive in time for me to wear on that episode,
Speaker 1: but I'm wearing it today because if you think I'm
Speaker 1: not just gonna wear it in everyday life, you don't
Speaker 1: know me at all. It is a picture of Miss
Speaker 1: Piggy in an orange sequin dress with an orange for
Speaker 1: the bow, with the words in the font of one
Speaker 1: T swift new album, The Life of a show Girl.
Speaker 2: It's so good.
Speaker 1: I'm showing the camera for YouTube.
Speaker 2: It's just and she actually.
Speaker 1: Her name is Kitty. She made her money being pretty
Speaker 1: and witty. That's right, such a oh, it's her name
Speaker 1: is Piggy. She made her money pretty and weirdy.
Speaker 3: That's from.
Speaker 1: And I love this T shirt so much And I
Speaker 1: just wore it to work today and people asked me
Speaker 1: what it was for and I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: understand the question that I'm wearing today.
Speaker 2: Well, I've got a beautiful Miss Piggy T shirt coming
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: Don't tell me way down, kay.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be good to tell you that March is
Speaker 2: going to be very good.
Speaker 1: Do we just each order ourselves speak a T shirt
Speaker 1: with discussing it.
Speaker 2: I saw it a few weeks ago when I disordered it.
Speaker 2: But it's coming from the United States.
Speaker 1: Of a marriage you're going to start America.
Speaker 2: So it's it's coming, but it's going to be a
Speaker 2: little bit late. But as soon as as soon as
Speaker 2: it arrives, I'll be wearing my Piggy T shirt as well.
Speaker 1: Sammy, let's stop talking about this because something much more
Speaker 1: important needs to be spoken about your comedy special. Why
Speaker 1: the long phase?
Speaker 2: Yes, is out for everyone to what it's out. There's
Speaker 2: a link there. So I had a real disappointing day
Speaker 2: the first day that it came out. Sadly it was
Speaker 2: posted without an ending. It cut.
Speaker 1: I think it's Famously Stories, So your comedy special is
Speaker 1: a story. It's not just a series of jokes. Famously
Speaker 1: stories don't need the last twenty minutes to make sense.
Speaker 1: So I don't know what you're upset for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so my story builds up to a point
Speaker 2: and it cuts me off mid sentence like it was
Speaker 2: an episode of the Sopranos. The final episode Sopranos and so.
Speaker 1: And not even just like the last moment, like twenty minutes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it cut twenty minutes out, and so the
Speaker 2: comedy club who uploaded all, oh my god, I'm so sorry,
Speaker 2: and it was the last twenty minutes. So five over
Speaker 2: five thousand people watch it without the ending, and so
Speaker 2: they just think that I probably just had a special
Speaker 2: that just ended.
Speaker 1: Sammy, Can I say to you? And I was actually
Speaker 1: talking to my friend about this today when I told
Speaker 1: her what had happened, and she said the same thing
Speaker 1: that I said to you. And I feel overwhelmingly you
Speaker 1: had five thousand people watch your comedy special on the
Speaker 1: very first night it was released. I know that was
Speaker 1: a shitty night because it went wrong and that ending
Speaker 1: wasn't there. Can we just for the rest of forever
Speaker 1: make sure we focus on that amazing positive five thousand
Speaker 1: people watched your comedy special the very night it was released.
Speaker 1: That is fucking a massive.
Speaker 2: It's amazing. But they did not happen of you. So
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to every this is my plane, Okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to all of the people's houses.
Speaker 2: Good idea that's watched that episode? Yes, well that it's
Speaker 2: kind of an episode I watched, Yeah, first part of it.
Speaker 2: Watch the first part of special. Yes, and I'm going
Speaker 2: to perform from the moment it comes off to the end.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's a great idea.
Speaker 2: So five thousand. So how many is that?
Speaker 1: If I it's no.
Speaker 2: No, But if I do for the next year, yep,
Speaker 2: how many? G love, I know you're very good at math,
Speaker 2: Yes I am. How many would I have to do
Speaker 2: a day?
Speaker 1: I think three three a day yep to make five
Speaker 1: thousand out of three hundred and sixty five.
Speaker 2: And you're confident about that because it's not a leap yeer.
Speaker 1: So there are three hundred and sixty five days, okay.
Speaker 2: The three hundred and fIF sixty five days times three
Speaker 2: is thousand. Okay, great, I'm not going to check.
Speaker 1: But that's not that much because twenty minutes times three
Speaker 1: is obviously an hour I'm not stupid. One hour a
Speaker 1: day for four years, yeah, So not the calendar year
Speaker 1: for the next three hundred and sixty five days.
Speaker 2: Yes, And it just depends where you're living as well.
Speaker 2: So I'll have to account travel and everything into that,
Speaker 2: but I will do it. And so if this is
Speaker 2: my this is my message to you if you watch that, yes,
Speaker 2: and you didn't see the last twenty minutes, email me
Speaker 2: your address, no, just email me.
Speaker 1: Yes, oh okay, and then you'll find the address.
Speaker 2: I'll find you.
Speaker 1: Because you're not a journal, must be your hack.
Speaker 2: And I will find you. I know your IP address.
Speaker 2: I will find you. It was the last thing I do,
Speaker 2: and I will do twenty minutes of comedy at you
Speaker 2: from the moment it stopped, and I'll get really.
Speaker 1: And you'll you'll know exactly stuff. You'll pick up your centered.
Speaker 2: And that that's so well honed as well to it.
Speaker 1: And the thing is because that was just this week
Speaker 1: that that happened. So for the people who get their
Speaker 1: last three performances on the three hundred and sixty fifth day, yes,
Speaker 1: that'll remember where it left.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely that yeah, you remember that stuff. So yeah.
Speaker 2: So my comedy special is out now. I have put
Speaker 2: it on my social media, so if you want to
Speaker 2: find it special media. Yep, what is It's at Sammy
Speaker 2: Peterson not offficial.
Speaker 1: Have I told you that? When you first changed your
Speaker 1: handle to that, I thought it was Sammy Peterson Official
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, good for your
Speaker 1: big dog you've got some confidence about you. Oh unofficial?
Speaker 2: Yeah no, no, no, you've.
Speaker 1: Changed, man, but I kind of like it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I've got a I just thought Sam
Speaker 2: Peter's not official was fun, but then most people who
Speaker 2: write it right official.
Speaker 1: So because everyone knows you have got damn boss lady.
Speaker 2: Yea, I'm a boss lady. I'm absolute boss lady.
Speaker 1: Hey talking about boss ladies? Well, hang on, first of all,
Speaker 1: have to say that huge congratulations. I'm really prayank you
Speaker 1: so much. I'm talking about boss ladies. Do you know
Speaker 1: how good friend sticker is by Claws? Yes, I love
Speaker 1: one of our beautiful listeners who had sent us in
Speaker 1: stickers before. Well, there is a little envelopeia that says
Speaker 1: to Sammy and g love, maybe.
Speaker 2: Cover up the address on YouTube. Oh yeah, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: it's by Claude.
Speaker 1: Do you want me to do that again?
Speaker 2: That's fine?
Speaker 1: Blur And it actually says on the back form of
Speaker 1: stickers by court should I read out her? Okay, So
Speaker 1: we're going to do a live unboxing, which will be
Speaker 1: funny if it's just like a I know, like a
Speaker 1: love letter. Actually that would be great. I can see cats,
Speaker 1: I can see carts. Never jokes. Okay, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, wait god, all right, there's a little
Speaker 1: handwritten note in it as well.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I love you. If you guys had.
Speaker 1: Skipped the band, you wouldn't. All right, I'm gonna oh
Speaker 1: my god, I'm going to read the note first. Dear
Speaker 1: Sammy and Georgia, you guys are the beds. Still loving
Speaker 1: your podcast obviously, and I also agree with your many
Speaker 1: other listeners that the long episodes are great and definitely
Speaker 1: worth it. I've recently released a couple of news sticker
Speaker 1: sheet designs and I thought you both would like to
Speaker 1: share them. Thanks again for always providing the best stories
Speaker 1: of forever love your pod and happy one year.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I love you.
Speaker 1: P has never stopped the musical references. Gee, I love them,
Speaker 1: and I never say no to a chance to sing
Speaker 1: along with you. Lots of love, Claudia. Okay, which one
Speaker 1: shall I go with today? Give me a musical? Please?
Speaker 1: Oh no, I'll give it. I saw Cats.
Speaker 2: Need any questions yep?
Speaker 1: Sorry, Well, there's a sticker shade of cats in front
Speaker 1: of me, and I saw the musical Cats the other night,
Speaker 1: So I'm going to sing this.
Speaker 2: When you're a jet You're Jay come wrong.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sing this well, never remember there's a cat,
Speaker 1: a cat as clever as magical muster mistore p please
Speaker 1: And also this one. No, I don't remember rum Tum
Speaker 1: Tuger's song. I just remember that the guy who played
Speaker 1: it was hot.
Speaker 2: Well you're done a good job, thank.
Speaker 3: You very much.
Speaker 1: And I know this one as well, Jelly cousin and
Speaker 1: Jelicus do and jelicusmine and Jelicus who. So I don't
Speaker 1: know the words to that either, but when when Poudrey
Speaker 1: is being a pest I sing to her that she's
Speaker 1: being a pesticle cat.
Speaker 2: That's good.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Can we have beautiful stickers? And there's
Speaker 1: dog ones as well. Okay, so I'm going to show
Speaker 1: the YouTube. This is the sticker sheet of cats. This
Speaker 1: one as long as a bumblebee, like there's one catistic
Speaker 1: bumble bee. That one looks like poetry. And this one
Speaker 1: is hilarious because it doesn't have a neck and it's just.
Speaker 2: Like, oh, saw, do you make the best stickers?
Speaker 1: And this is the dog ones And there's not really
Speaker 1: a dibber on there, but there's a dalmation and can
Speaker 1: you please tell everyone the story about.
Speaker 2: So there's a there's a dalmation on my street the
Speaker 2: other day that didn't have a collar on. We named
Speaker 2: him Spot and I was like that of Crouella. And
Speaker 2: we're walking walking home and the dog was playing with digs.
Speaker 2: Little puppy Dalmatian walked all the way home with us
Speaker 2: and then came in the gate and was playing with
Speaker 2: digs in here, and then the owner called out to it.
Speaker 3: Damn it.
Speaker 1: You thought I thought you were getting getting.
Speaker 2: It brother that he's always wanted.
Speaker 1: Well, now you can have a picture of the baby
Speaker 1: brother Spot. There's also a picture of a Cortigra a
Speaker 1: Corgy on there and they are famously that's the dog
Speaker 1: I want to get if I ever get a dog,
Speaker 1: and I want to name her Chappelle Corgy.
Speaker 2: That's good. I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1: I really need to do it yet because I'm not
Speaker 1: wearing shoes. You think my foot is very.
Speaker 2: But we are going to be doing an episode today
Speaker 2: that we did on a book called He Read, She.
Speaker 1: Read a podcast called God but.
Speaker 2: We wed, I'll go but went into a book, dove
Speaker 2: into a book called in Cold Blood. It was really
Speaker 2: good and we might be book talk stars is that
Speaker 2: a thing. There's an ex bachelor that is a book
Speaker 2: talk star.
Speaker 1: Yes, he's currently on the Australian season of.
Speaker 2: Okay. He became a book talk star, and maybe that's
Speaker 2: what we need to do because now he's got a podcast.
Speaker 1: We already have a book, I know.
Speaker 2: But if we go big on book talk, we can
Speaker 2: get another book, another podcast.
Speaker 1: I don't have time for another podcast.
Speaker 2: No, you're right, we don't have time.
Speaker 1: But we could get sent free books.
Speaker 2: Yes, how good would that be?
Speaker 1: Well, maybe I should leave the address up on the
Speaker 1: YouTube and people can send us books.
Speaker 2: Okay, address up.
Speaker 1: Books.
Speaker 2: But we did go on that podcast and it was fantastic.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's with two Australian authors named Jp Pomery and
Speaker 1: Sarah Bailey. They both written thriller books and lots of them,
Speaker 1: and numerous that I have read before before we were
Speaker 1: asked to go the last few years. They're both fantastic.
Speaker 1: JP wasn't there, so she invited us on his guests
Speaker 1: because we're famous book talk stars.
Speaker 2: Oh that's right, we are famous book talk stars.
Speaker 1: And we spoke about the book in cold Blood. Now,
Speaker 1: I've said on the podcast many times before. I think
Speaker 1: even just in the very last episode with John Ronson
Speaker 1: on Thursday that this was this was always my favorite
Speaker 1: book until I read Boy Swallows Universe by it is
Speaker 1: a very close second. Now. I love obviously the true
Speaker 1: crime element of it, but the fact that it is,
Speaker 1: like I said in the intro, is kind of talented
Speaker 1: as the first non fiction novel. So it is a
Speaker 1: nonfiction story. It's about a true crime, but Truman Compote
Speaker 1: has written it into a novel, so it reads like
Speaker 1: a fiction.
Speaker 2: Book, but it's not.
Speaker 1: And we will talk a bit about that part of
Speaker 1: it and the Truman Compote part in this episode, but
Speaker 1: it's a true crime podcast, so we're mostly talking about
Speaker 1: the crime itself. If you want to hear Sammy and
Speaker 1: I go on a deep dive into our thoughts about
Speaker 1: the book and more about Truman Compodi himself and what
Speaker 1: we think about how he wrote that, please listen to
Speaker 1: our episode.
Speaker 2: If he read she read it simply mast.
Speaker 1: And do you know much about the crime. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously you've read the book as well, but a lot
Speaker 1: of people talk about the book and not actually the
Speaker 1: clut of Family murder, where it became one of the
Speaker 1: most famous murders of all time because of the book.
Speaker 1: So do you know a lot of details about it?
Speaker 2: Not really other than what's in the book. I mean,
Speaker 2: but I kind of got I guess I got a
Speaker 2: little bit sidetracked by Tim and Capodi.
Speaker 1: And it's a lot about ye, the town and characters
Speaker 1: and stuff as well, not just the crime.
Speaker 2: Yes, and then the killers as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is there anything else you'd like to talk about
Speaker 1: before we delve into the Clutter family mood?
Speaker 2: Well, you're away this weekend, so I'm going to watch
Speaker 2: Heated Rivalry?
Speaker 1: Are you really I'm going.
Speaker 2: To watch it?
Speaker 1: It's really funny that you said because I'm away, Like,
Speaker 1: because you know, if I was here and I.
Speaker 5: Knew you were watching shouting at the I'm a part
Speaker 5: of I imagine you're like, it's like people watching sports
Speaker 5: with people, like you're.
Speaker 2: Going to be shouting at the TV. Yes, And you're
Speaker 2: going to a music fest all I always wanted to
Speaker 2: go to called festival.
Speaker 1: So it's actually food and wine festival that has musical
Speaker 1: acts there as well. Jess melboy in the Spoon British
Speaker 1: radio Greenspoon. I'm going to Grimspoon tomorrow. Yeah, and three
Speaker 1: small time comedians you might have heard Of will also
Speaker 1: be performing there tomorrow named Luke McGregor, Nick Cody, and
Speaker 1: Claire Hooper.
Speaker 2: That's a great line up. It's going to be fun.
Speaker 1: It's a really fun week.
Speaker 2: When you're there, I'm going to be watching Heated Rivalry.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean this with all sincerity. I'm
Speaker 1: jealous of that.
Speaker 2: We'm jealous. If you're going to fest of All.
Speaker 1: Hey, come to FESTIVALI you.
Speaker 2: Should have asked a few weeks ago.
Speaker 1: To be able to watch Heated Rivalry for the first
Speaker 1: time again. Yeah, something I'll never be able to do
Speaker 1: in off It is just it is the best show
Speaker 1: ever written. I cannot stop thinking about it. Deeply in
Speaker 1: love with Hudson Williams.
Speaker 2: Which one is that one? We'll find out. Don't worry
Speaker 2: about it. We'll find out how you want.
Speaker 1: Because it's the name of the actor. But we can
Speaker 1: talk about it after. There's gonna be so much to
Speaker 1: talk about on week's episode.
Speaker 2: Let's do this week's episode, then.
Speaker 1: Kay Leo's do. The Clutter family lived in Holcombe, Kansas.
Speaker 2: I know this.
Speaker 1: You can't say that after every sing.
Speaker 6: Okay.
Speaker 1: The father, Herbert Clutter, was born in nineteen eleven and
Speaker 1: his whole life was farming. He was an agricultural agent
Speaker 1: for the county, and he went around teaching farmers as
Speaker 1: well as owning his own farm himself and sorry and
Speaker 1: his father had done that as well, So he was
Speaker 1: a farmer from way back. He started his own Herbs
Speaker 1: started his own farm in the nineteen forties named River
Speaker 1: Valley Farm, also in Holcombe, Kansas. He was absolutely beloved
Speaker 1: in the community, labeled and I feel like you'll be
Speaker 1: able to guess the labels. You wouldn't say, like beloved
Speaker 1: farmer guy? What did people say?
Speaker 2: He was wholesome? Yeah, and lovely and beautiful.
Speaker 1: Sault of the Earth, asault of the Earth's successful and
Speaker 1: stood up for the little guy like he wasn't just
Speaker 1: for himself and his family. His farmer, big farmer. That's clever,
Speaker 1: I right.
Speaker 2: That big farmer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that's very clever. But big farmer famously
Speaker 1: doesn't stick up to the little guy.
Speaker 2: I disagree. If you'd like to sponsor us big farmer,
Speaker 2: very aroviser, yeah, I don't think we should ask whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, small thing. So Herb's farm was thriving, but
Speaker 1: he also then fiercely advocated for smaller farms as well.
Speaker 1: He was the president of the National Association of Wheat Growers.
Speaker 2: He's a big farmer, He's a big, big farm.
Speaker 1: His whole family was very much the picture of the
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties perfect American family. Yeah, I was about to say,
Speaker 1: you got it, but I did tell you he's gonna
Speaker 1: be a long episode freaking like this. Here's a real
Speaker 1: vibe in here today. I like it. It's fun. I'm
Speaker 1: having fun it because I've got my shoes off and
Speaker 1: a pig. Tim mentioned, are we singing? Tim mentioned some
Speaker 1: quickly at the end. Ah, okay, I'll rush.
Speaker 2: Through a treat to the end, get through carrot, danglars carrot.
Speaker 1: So President Eisenhower actually appointed herb Clutter to the Federal
Speaker 1: Farm Credit Board in nineteen fifty three.
Speaker 2: When you thought a farmer couldn't get bigger, a bigger
Speaker 2: farmer farmer.
Speaker 1: He was active in politics, both local and national. In contrast, however,
Speaker 1: his wife Bonnie was very introverted. Yes she was salt
Speaker 1: of the earth and lovely as well, but she wasn't
Speaker 1: this inner out about in politics. The president knows him.
Speaker 2: The life of the show girl.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no more. A kermit than a miss Piggy.
Speaker 1: I'd say she had severe depression and anxiety. Oh that's sorry, Kermit.
Speaker 1: Maybe more an Eel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, memor El, the other famous Muppet. Yes, famous Moppet.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all right, we'll take a quick break.
Speaker 1: I just really wasn't expected to say that was quite funny.
Speaker 1: I just did a spit take.
Speaker 2: But it's not your Yeah, it's disgusting. That's the probably
Speaker 2: the worst thing has ever happened in the book.
Speaker 1: She wears a pink T shirt or I think I
Speaker 1: can do this. Please don't make a clip of that.
Speaker 2: No, I won't make a clip of that because my
Speaker 2: face gone, Oh.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's disgusting. Oh my god. Okay, I can't.
Speaker 1: We're talking about put Bonnie clot depression and can't. All right, So,
Speaker 1: Bondie Clutter had actually been hospitalized several times for months
Speaker 1: a time with depression and anxiety. She also had nervous
Speaker 1: muscle spasms. She slept a lot, but she was really
Speaker 1: determined to get better and to be well and present
Speaker 1: for her family. When she was feeling good and more
Speaker 1: active in the community. She was an active member of
Speaker 1: the Methodist Church. She taught Sunday school and she was
Speaker 1: part of the Women's Society of Christian Service. She was
Speaker 1: a good, wholesome, salt of the earth American mother. She
Speaker 1: and Herb were very much in love, and Herb really
Speaker 1: tried very hard to help and stand by her. So
Speaker 1: there was not I think I feel like often here,
Speaker 1: especially in the olden days, when someone has had postnatal
Speaker 1: depression or depressive episodes, it kind of is spoken about,
Speaker 1: as you know, and then the husband's like, oh, she's
Speaker 1: just sleeping all day. This was very much not the
Speaker 1: case with this family. He understood that she was unwell
Speaker 1: and would really stand by her, was trying to do
Speaker 1: everything to help her.
Speaker 2: Heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: Herb and Bonnie had four children. They had two older daughters,
Speaker 1: Evianna and Beverly, who were adults at the time and
Speaker 1: living out of the home. Yes, and at the time
Speaker 1: of the incident we are discussing, they had a sixteen
Speaker 1: year old daughter, Nancy, and fifteen year old son Kenyan,
Speaker 1: who were living at home with them.
Speaker 2: It's such interesting name.
Speaker 1: You never heard Kenyan again, like before or since. If
Speaker 1: we have any listeners called Kenyon, please write in. I
Speaker 1: didn't think we'd have a listener called Board. I love born,
Speaker 1: so they now I won't really bring I'll mention Evianna
Speaker 1: and Beverly again at the end, but they don't come
Speaker 1: up through the story. They weren't living at home at
Speaker 1: the time, so.
Speaker 2: They weren't really involved in the book, were they.
Speaker 1: No, And that's okay, Well, yeah, yeah, That's what I'll
Speaker 1: talk about at the end, the fact that they weren't involved.
Speaker 1: So when I'm talking about the family and their clutter
Speaker 1: family and the whole family, I am just talking about Nancy, Kenyon,
Speaker 1: Bonnie and Herb. I'm not discounting Evianna and Beverly. They
Speaker 1: weren't involved in the place, and they were. Nancy and
Speaker 1: Kenyon were the classic all American teens of the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 1: Like Picture Greece the Musical, they were younger kids. Sorry,
Speaker 1: the younger kids. Were also very heavily involved in the
Speaker 1: Methodist Church and youth services. Nancy was popular, pretty, a straight,
Speaker 1: a student, very classic. She had a boyfriend named Bobby
Speaker 1: Rupp American name, isn't it Bobby? It's like, I feel
Speaker 1: like that's a character from Greece. She was a member
Speaker 1: of the Mixed Chorus. She received the Good Citizen Award
Speaker 1: at school just days before her death. Spoiler alert, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry she does. Kenyan, the fifteen year old son, was
Speaker 1: also really popular, but much more quiet and reserve. Again.
Speaker 1: He was the kermit who Nancy's miss Piggy beautiful pool,
Speaker 1: thank you. He had good grains. He was a star athlete,
Speaker 1: especially in basketball and track teams. They were a really,
Speaker 1: really close family who did a lot for the community.
Speaker 1: Now I'm going to tell you about two other people.
Speaker 1: A man named Richard known as Dick Hickock, was in
Speaker 1: Kansas State Penitentiary for robbery. His cell mate was a
Speaker 1: man named Floyd Wells, and as they got chatting in
Speaker 1: their cell, passing the time on each of their sentences,
Speaker 1: Floyd Wells told Dick Hickock that when he got out,
Speaker 1: he was going to rob an old farmhouse that he
Speaker 1: used to work at. The farmhouse was called River Valley
Speaker 1: Farm in Holcombe, Kansas. Floyd had worked there in the
Speaker 1: late forties and had worked for Herb Clutter, and he
Speaker 1: told his cell mate Dick Hickock that he knew that
Speaker 1: Herb Clutter kept ten thousand dollars cash in a safe
Speaker 1: in the house. Now, I didn't actually do I want
Speaker 1: to quickly look that up. What that would be worth
Speaker 1: in today's Yeah, because it would be I mean quite
Speaker 1: significant obviously aslutely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just interesting that he knew that from working
Speaker 2: on the farm. It just seems like an interesting bit
Speaker 2: of information, doesn't it.
Speaker 1: I will will very much get into that. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: not ten thousand dollars in nineteen forty. This would be
Speaker 1: worth between three hundred and four hundred and fifty thousand
Speaker 1: dollars today. Okay, So that's.
Speaker 2: All so much money just keeping you safe.
Speaker 1: Yes, So as Floyd was talking about this, Dick thought, well,
Speaker 1: I have less time on my sentence than Floyd does.
Speaker 1: I'm going to get it. I'm going to do that
Speaker 1: plan actually and break out and get not breakout, he
Speaker 1: was going to be released, but he's going to break
Speaker 1: into the house and get the money. Now, let's talk
Speaker 1: about Dick Hickock. Growing up. He was athletic, smart and
Speaker 1: cool and a good looking guy. He didn't get a
Speaker 1: scholarship to college that he thought he would, and his
Speaker 1: family couldn't afford to send him to college, so he
Speaker 1: went straight into the workforce, doing odd jobs to make
Speaker 1: a dime. Now, he was close with his family. His
Speaker 1: family was you know, by all means, a kind of
Speaker 1: lower middle class family, or even middle class family. They
Speaker 1: didn't have enough money to pay for his college, but
Speaker 1: they were you know, a close family, tight knit. By
Speaker 1: age twenty eight, Dick Hickock had been married and divorced twice.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay by twenty eight.
Speaker 1: By twenty eight, yes, he would do anything to avoid
Speaker 1: working too hard. That probably counts for the marriages, sure,
Speaker 1: as well as in actual work. He was really spoken
Speaker 1: about as just a really lazy guy, right. He didn't
Speaker 1: want to have to do hard work. You know, even
Speaker 1: he didn't get scholarship, so we went, okay, I just
Speaker 1: won't go to college at or he didn't then you know,
Speaker 1: try to get a job to be able to put
Speaker 1: himself through college later. And he didn't like working because
Speaker 1: he wasn't doing jobs that he wanted to do. So
Speaker 1: he would get around doing a lot of robberies, stealing cars,
Speaker 1: stealing number plates, and he ended up in and out
Speaker 1: of jail quite a few times. He'd also been in
Speaker 1: a car accident when he was younger. I didn't find
Speaker 1: that age. He was in the car accident and it
Speaker 1: left him with scars on his face, which he hated.
Speaker 1: He really cherished his good looks growing up, and he
Speaker 1: was not even self conscious. He was angry. He was
Speaker 1: not a good guy, where we don't have to feel
Speaker 1: sorry for that. He would say that his face had
Speaker 1: been ruined, and he was really angry about that. He
Speaker 1: carried a real grudge about it. A new cell mate
Speaker 1: moved in next door to like you know in the
Speaker 1: cale next to Perry and sorry to Floyd and Dick,
Speaker 1: And this man's name was Perry Smith. Now conversely to Dick,
Speaker 1: he grew up in a very poor and a very
Speaker 1: violent family. His parents were both severe alcoholics, and his
Speaker 1: parents and siblings had mental health issues. He didn't finish school,
Speaker 1: and he didn't have many skills to maintain a job,
Speaker 1: certainly not a good job. It was a very different
Speaker 1: upbringing to Dick's. He'd never had a long term girlfriend,
Speaker 1: he didn't have the love and support of his family
Speaker 1: as Dick had. He joined the army in nineteen forty
Speaker 1: eight and was honorably discharged in nineteen fifty two, but
Speaker 1: had no job skills so really struggled. After leaving the army,
Speaker 1: he became a drifter and again, like Dick, was arrested
Speaker 1: a lot for petty crimes. Now, the difference between Dick
Speaker 1: and Perry in committing crimes is it spoken about more
Speaker 1: as if Dick did the crimes because he was well
Speaker 1: a Dick and Perry because he was more desperate. He
Speaker 1: didn't have money, he couldn't get a job, and that's
Speaker 1: why he'll do the crimes. I mean, that's not an excuse,
Speaker 1: but that was his excuse.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty six, Perry and Dick were at Lansing,
Speaker 1: sorry I said, I said, Kansas State Penitentiary. They know
Speaker 1: they were at Lancing.
Speaker 2: Lancing.
Speaker 1: Floyd Wells says that Dick became obsessed with the thought
Speaker 1: of this ten thousand dollars in the farmer's house in Hongkong.
Speaker 2: Much money.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, Dick would say that he was going to
Speaker 1: take this new friend, Perry Smith because he was dumb
Speaker 1: and impressionable, and he was going to steal the money
Speaker 1: from the safe when they got out of prison.
Speaker 2: God.
Speaker 1: Now, Dick saw something in Perry that he had something
Speaker 1: that he wanted. So Perry had something that Dick wanted,
Speaker 1: and that was the skills of a natural born killer.
Speaker 1: According to Dick, Wow Perry also then saw something in
Speaker 1: Dick that he didn't have. That was confidence, the ability
Speaker 1: to make a move without second guessing yourself. Sure, okay,
Speaker 1: so they see each other as the person he's going
Speaker 1: to make this robbery actually happen. Neither of them would
Speaker 1: do it on their own, they can do it together,
Speaker 1: and Perry was always seeking Dick's validation. Again, they grew
Speaker 1: up very differently. Perry grew up quite unloved by all accounts,
Speaker 1: and Dick really took him under his wing, and Perry
Speaker 1: kind of really took to that and wanted to impress
Speaker 1: him and be friends with him. Perry got parole on
Speaker 1: July sixth, nineteen fifty nine. He had to leave Kansas.
Speaker 1: Under his parle conditions, he wasn't ever allowed back in
Speaker 1: the state, or at least for the parole term, he
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed back in the state.
Speaker 2: Interesting not to be allowed back in the state. Usually
Speaker 2: think that you actually have to stay some ways, people
Speaker 2: can keep an eye on you. But not allowed in
Speaker 2: the state seems.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, I don't know if this is
Speaker 1: the case, but it feels like they've gone, Well, if
Speaker 1: you're going to do more petty crimes, not on our
Speaker 1: turn someone else, but he did stay close by to Kansas,
Speaker 1: so as close as he could possibly be, because he
Speaker 1: was waiting for Dick to get out and he wanted
Speaker 1: to be as close as he could be. Dick was
Speaker 1: meant to get out many months later, but he actually
Speaker 1: got an early release and was released in August, so
Speaker 1: just about five or six weeks after Perry was released.
Speaker 1: Dick moved back in with his parents for a few
Speaker 1: months so he could save up some money, and the
Speaker 1: two men wrote letters back and forth talking about their
Speaker 1: plans to rob the clutter farm. Perry was hesitant. He
Speaker 1: didn't want to mess up his parole by returning to Kansas.
Speaker 1: Apparently it wasn't the robbery that worried him, it was
Speaker 1: just breaking parole. I think he was so they'd convince
Speaker 1: themselves they're never going to get caught. So it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: what if we get pulled over? H Yeah, what if
Speaker 1: we get pulled over while I'm in Kansas and they
Speaker 1: find out that I'm here, like the robbery part, we
Speaker 1: won't get caught for that. Very smart people. After many
Speaker 1: letters back and forth and Dick's insistence, Perry said written.
Speaker 1: Perry said LFG, let's fucking go, don't have you actually said?
Speaker 1: And he probably didn't write LFG in Florida hand drawn
Speaker 1: the little bomb thing. So it was planned that they
Speaker 1: would meet in Olatha, which is close to the Missouri border,
Speaker 1: in early November. Right, They got there on November fourteen.
Speaker 2: This was quite a long time, like August to November.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because remember I said that they were planning it out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Dick moved back in with his parents so they could
Speaker 1: plan it for a while without kind of the you know,
Speaker 1: guards of the prison watching them, and he could save
Speaker 1: up some money. They could both do some you know,
Speaker 1: little jobs here and there to make some money, and
Speaker 1: they wanted to make sure they had this plan or
Speaker 1: you know down pat. They also knew that Floyd Wells
Speaker 1: was the only other person that kind of as far
Speaker 1: as they knew, knew about this cash and was playing
Speaker 1: a Robbie that he was still behind bars. So they
Speaker 1: weren't like, oh, someone else is going to get the
Speaker 1: cash first, you know. So on November fourteen, they stole
Speaker 1: a car in Olatha and they drove four hundred miles
Speaker 1: which is about six hundred and fifty kilometers, which to me,
Speaker 1: my mind was like that, I don't really know what
Speaker 1: that means. So I looked it up and that's the
Speaker 1: same distance as if you were drive to drive from
Speaker 1: Melbourne to Canberra.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1: It's like eight hours. Ye into that like I mean
Speaker 1: on Google Maps and said driving to Melbourne to Cambra
Speaker 1: will be eight hours. Don't know how long it took
Speaker 1: in like a Chevy in the y.
Speaker 2: That's such a long drive.
Speaker 1: Yes, And they drive to a place called Garden City,
Speaker 1: which is where Hulkham is. They stopped once on the
Speaker 1: way and bought nylon rope, rubber gloves, adhesive tape, and
Speaker 1: a small pocket knife. They arrived in Garden City just
Speaker 1: after midnight on December fifteenth, where they stopped for gas
Speaker 1: and then they drove the final mile to Hulkham and
Speaker 1: the River Valley Farm. River Valley Farm has a long,
Speaker 1: a dirt driveway. Before they drove up to the farm,
Speaker 1: they stopped at the base of the driveway to kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, get themselves sighted up and like you know,
Speaker 1: try to low with their nerves and get themselves ready
Speaker 1: for this. They sat there to try to get their
Speaker 1: head straight, and they saw a light go on in
Speaker 1: another house nearby, and they totally freaked out. Dix said,
Speaker 1: we can't do this tonight. No, no, no, you know
Speaker 1: there's lights on. It is really freaked down. But't together.
Speaker 1: They catch their breaths, pull themselves together, and up they
Speaker 1: go on the long driveway towards the Clutter family far.
Speaker 2: Foot in the car in the car, like at least
Speaker 2: a little bit of the way in the car.
Speaker 1: And then yet they yeah, right up to the house. Sorry,
Speaker 1: because the next sentence says they parked the car near
Speaker 1: a side entrance to the house where Floyd had said
Speaker 1: there was an office with the safe with the cash,
Speaker 1: and the two men just wander straight in to the office.
Speaker 2: In the family home.
Speaker 1: Well, it's the nineteen fifties. It's a tiny town on
Speaker 1: a farm that doors were locked. Now, as I said,
Speaker 1: they stopped and bought rope tape and a pocket knife
Speaker 1: and rubber gloves. But what they already had and brought
Speaker 1: into the farm with them was a large flashlight, a
Speaker 1: large hunting knife, and a shotgun for a robbery. Allegedly,
Speaker 1: Dick has the knife and Perry has the gun. Now,
Speaker 1: no one is in the office space that they walk into,
Speaker 1: so they rifle around and search for the safe, but
Speaker 1: they can't find it. Floyd had said it would behind
Speaker 1: the desk. It wasn't there, the kind of looking in
Speaker 1: cupboards and stuff. And they're a bit confused because Floyd
Speaker 1: had also described this office as that really large and fancy,
Speaker 1: so they were assuming it would be really obvious this
Speaker 1: family was load. The office they found themselves in was
Speaker 1: just a tiny little home office was really modest and
Speaker 1: really normal, and importantly, there was no safe. Dick in particular,
Speaker 1: is pierced.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had.
Speaker 1: Planned this all out for months and was not going
Speaker 1: to leave without his money. He'd been planning it, or
Speaker 1: at least daydreaming about it for five years. So what
Speaker 1: would you do if you were Dick and Perry in
Speaker 1: this situation.
Speaker 2: I would turn myself into prison.
Speaker 1: Into prison, rock up to prison. Go excuse me, And
Speaker 1: that's why you're good and that's why you're here today
Speaker 1: not in prison. Well, Perry and Dick did was go
Speaker 1: and ask the family where the money was.
Speaker 2: So they're like holding them up and saying, you know
Speaker 2: where the Moneys money.
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm going to tell you exactly what they did. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: chat's break. Perry and Dick walk into her and Bonnie's
Speaker 1: room and wake them with a flashlight. With the flashlight
Speaker 1: flashlight straight to the eyes. Now, there are conflicting reports
Speaker 1: here about whether the body was in that room or
Speaker 1: another room. Because of her health issues, she would often
Speaker 1: sleep in a different room, but either way, it was
Speaker 1: their bedroom and at the very least Herb was in there.
Speaker 1: He was woken up by flashlight to the eyes and
Speaker 1: they demanded to know where the safe was. Herb said,
Speaker 1: there is no safe in the house. They've never had
Speaker 1: a safe, and there's definitely no cash. He famously pays
Speaker 1: for everything by check. Everyone in town call back this up.
Speaker 1: He says he never uses cash. He never gets paid
Speaker 1: in cash. He never pays with cash. Everything is by
Speaker 1: check because it's a business. He needs to come back
Speaker 1: to that. He says that he will write these men
Speaker 1: a check for any amount of money. He'll ride away
Speaker 1: everything he has, but please, please, please leave my family alone.
Speaker 1: This isn't good enough for Dick and Perry. They want
Speaker 1: that cash money, so they go into every room. They
Speaker 1: get the rest of the family and lock them all
Speaker 1: in the upstairs bathroom together, tying them up with the
Speaker 1: rope that they brought while the family was then locked
Speaker 1: in the bathroom. Dick and Perry turned the whole house
Speaker 1: upside down looking for cash, looking for any valuables they
Speaker 1: could find, but there was nothing. There was no safe
Speaker 1: and there was no cash. Herb had been telling the truth,
Speaker 1: So what did this make? These robbers do? Get even angrier,
Speaker 1: so they decided to take it out on the family
Speaker 1: and trigger warning here for the details about what happened.
Speaker 1: Herb sorry, Dick and Perry go up to the bathroom.
Speaker 1: They put tape over the mouths of the people that
Speaker 1: they had tied up. Dick takes the two males, Herb
Speaker 1: and fifteen year old Kenyon, down to the basement of
Speaker 1: the house, where he throws Herb onto the floor and
Speaker 1: tiesion up to a pipe in the corner of the room.
Speaker 1: He then goes back upstairs, grabs sixteen year old Nancy,
Speaker 1: takes her to her bed and ties her up to
Speaker 1: her bed. Posts Now, when she's found she doesn't have
Speaker 1: tape on her mouth. The other family members all do.
Speaker 1: While this is happening, Perry is left in the bathroom
Speaker 1: to watch over Bonnie. She's hog tied on the floor
Speaker 1: with her mouth taped. At one point he offered her
Speaker 1: a chair because she looked uncomfortable. Then Dick comes into
Speaker 1: the bathroom and does the same thing to Bonnie, taking
Speaker 1: her to her bed and tying her to the bed posts.
Speaker 1: Dick and Perry then go down to the basement, and
Speaker 1: Perry notices that herb is cold on the floor. It's
Speaker 1: a cement floor in the basement and it's winter. So
Speaker 1: he gets pieces of cardboard and puts them down on
Speaker 1: the floor and places herb on top of them to
Speaker 1: make sure he's not.
Speaker 2: As co It's such strange behavior in this sort of situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, while this is happening, it's almost as if
Speaker 1: Kenyan seems to notice a hint of like compassion or
Speaker 1: maybe like regret or softness or something. And Kenyan, the
Speaker 1: fifteen year old boy, says that the ties that he's
Speaker 1: turned up to the pole of the pipe with are
Speaker 1: kind of cutting off circulations to his wrists and they're hurting.
Speaker 1: So Perry cuts him free, takes him to a couch
Speaker 1: that's in the basement and ties him up there looser,
Speaker 1: and brings him a pillow places under his head.
Speaker 2: It's so bizarre. It is really behavior bizarre. Now, what
Speaker 2: are you going to go through with this. You'd imagine
Speaker 2: you'd be callous enough to.
Speaker 1: This is the thing, right, So I don't want to
Speaker 1: give any spoilers, but the episode is called The Clutter
Speaker 1: Family Murders, so take from that what you will. But
Speaker 1: it makes it so much weirder that they're making them comfortable. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: The whole ordeal lasts around two hours.
Speaker 2: It's awful. Can you like?
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't. We can't and what that would
Speaker 1: be like for that family. They're also and the two
Speaker 1: Bonnie and Nancy are on their own in their own rooms,
Speaker 1: tied up on their own. Herb and Kenyan are together
Speaker 1: but you know, not being able to help each other
Speaker 1: and not knowing what they can do and what's going
Speaker 1: to happen. After two hours where we don't really know
Speaker 1: what happened, Perry tells Dick to go and get the
Speaker 1: knife and kill Herb.
Speaker 2: God.
Speaker 1: Perry says Dick was teasing him about not having the
Speaker 1: guts to do it himself, saying, this is what we've
Speaker 1: come here to do. So was it planned a planned
Speaker 1: murder all along? This doesn't sound like just a robbery
Speaker 1: for cash. If they're going, we'll come on, this is
Speaker 1: what we came here to do, you do it? And
Speaker 1: if it was a planned murder all along, why take
Speaker 1: two hours and make it so cruel like doing, you know,
Speaker 1: tying them up and everything and leaving them there for
Speaker 1: so long. Then, after being teased by Dick, Perry does
Speaker 1: exactly what I'm sure Dick was trying to get him
Speaker 1: to do. Is reacts by grabbing the hunting knife from Dick,
Speaker 1: and he slits Herb's throat in front of his fifteen
Speaker 1: year old son. He then, because apparently this was necessary,
Speaker 1: also shoots Herb at close range in the head. Shortly
Speaker 1: after that, fifteen year old Kenyon is also shot in
Speaker 1: the head at close range. When he's found, his head
Speaker 1: is lying on the pillow that Perry had brought him.
Speaker 1: Nancy and Bonnie are upstairs, and I can only assume
Speaker 1: they would have heard two shots go out. Can you
Speaker 1: fucking imagine? The terror wouldn't have lasted that long though
Speaker 1: for them after hearing the shots, because after they had
Speaker 1: killed Herb and Kenyon, the men went up to Nancy's
Speaker 1: room and shot her sixteen year old Nancy in the face,
Speaker 1: followed by Bonnie. The two men collected the shotgun shells
Speaker 1: as they went around the house so as not to
Speaker 1: leave a link to their gun. All four Clutter family
Speaker 1: members were shot at very close range in the face
Speaker 1: or the head. Herb was also cut to the throat.
Speaker 1: About the shootings, Perry would later tell a court, which
Speaker 1: is perhaps a spoiler as well, it was like picking
Speaker 1: off targets in a shooting gallery.
Speaker 2: Of course it was. It's horrender horrendous, correct use of
Speaker 2: the word correct use.
Speaker 1: When they were done raiding the house and killing an
Speaker 1: entire innocent family, the men left with nothing but a
Speaker 1: pair of binoculars, a transistor radio, and forty bucks they
Speaker 1: found in Herb's wallet. All that for four lives.
Speaker 2: It's disgusting.
Speaker 1: They're also fucking stupid because there was an envelope full
Speaker 1: of cash on Nancy's dresser that they just didn't see, guess,
Speaker 1: And this is awful. The reason the sixteen year old
Speaker 1: girl had an envelope full of cash on her dresser
Speaker 1: was because she was going to make a donation to
Speaker 1: the church the following morning. So sad Perry and Dick
Speaker 1: drove off past the county boundary line, and then they
Speaker 1: cleaned themselves and the gun off with the car's radiator water,
Speaker 1: and then they dug a hole and buried the shotgun shells,
Speaker 1: the tape and the rope just next to the highway.
Speaker 1: They didn't bury the knife or the gun. I mean,
Speaker 1: these guys are see you next tuesdays. They thought we
Speaker 1: might be able to use these for something else. And
Speaker 1: you know, they're petty criminals and they're stealing cars and
Speaker 1: all sorts of things, so they're probably think we're not
Speaker 1: going to get rid of our weapons. We might need that.
Speaker 1: The following day, a Sunday morning, the Clutters didn't arrive
Speaker 1: to Nancy's friend, Susan Kidwell's house to pick her up
Speaker 1: for church, as they always did. Nancy and her family Sorry,
Speaker 1: Susan and her family were concerned immediately. They tried calling
Speaker 1: the Clutter house a number of times and got no answer.
Speaker 1: So Nancy and a friend, sorry this is confusing, Susan
Speaker 1: and a friend whose name was also Nancy, Oh sure, yep,
Speaker 1: and this Nancy's dad went over to the Clutter farm
Speaker 1: to check that all was okay. They could tell something
Speaker 1: was off immediately when they arrived because the family's car
Speaker 1: was there they should have been at church, and there
Speaker 1: were no lights on in the house, no noises coming
Speaker 1: from there at all. The dad had been working on
Speaker 1: his farm that morning, so I said, I don't want
Speaker 1: to trapes mud through the house. I'll take off my
Speaker 1: boots and you girls go ahead and call out to
Speaker 1: your friend. So Susan and Nancy, two young girls, go
Speaker 1: into the clutter farm.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: The kitchen door was unlocked, which was normal, but there
Speaker 1: were no signs anyone had made breakfast, which was odd
Speaker 1: for this time of the morning in a house full
Speaker 1: of people. Then they saw Nancy's purse open on the floor,
Speaker 1: so they started calling out for their friend and walked
Speaker 1: up towards her bedroom. They saw the door ajar and
Speaker 1: they went in, and they saw Nancy on the bed,
Speaker 1: wearing her nightie, bound to the bed by her hands
Speaker 1: and feet, with cords torn from her curtains. There was
Speaker 1: blood all over the walls, floor, and roof, and her
Speaker 1: face was not recognizable because it had been shot at
Speaker 1: such close range. Susan later said she didn't remember screaming.
Speaker 1: She only remembered seeing Nancy's teddy bear staring at her
Speaker 1: and her friend running away. The dad heard the screens
Speaker 1: and the girls running out, so he went in and
Speaker 1: he saw the same thing. He called the sheriff immediately.
Speaker 1: They had only seen Nancy. Finney County Sheriff Earl Robinson
Speaker 1: called in his friend at the Kansas Bureau the KBI,
Speaker 1: not the behind back for Kansas, his friend Alvin Dewey,
Speaker 1: who both came out and it was them who searched
Speaker 1: the whole house and discovered the horrors. Also in Bonnie's
Speaker 1: bedroom and the basement. They found Bonnie as they had
Speaker 1: found Nancy. They found a Kenyon who had been shot
Speaker 1: in the face with his head still on the pillow
Speaker 1: on the couch, and they found herb hung from a
Speaker 1: pipe in the basement. So after they they think it
Speaker 1: was possible that he had been tortured before he was killed.
Speaker 1: So the Finney County Sheriff's Department and the KBI had
Speaker 1: a quadruple homicide and zero idea what happened. The family
Speaker 1: had no known enemies, there were no dodgy business dealings,
Speaker 1: and no one had seen nor heard a thing. Seventeen
Speaker 1: investigators were assigned to the case. It was initially thought
Speaker 1: to be a robbery gone wrong, which is kind of
Speaker 1: semi right maybe, but they were confused by the cash
Speaker 1: left in Nancy's room, and that both Bonnie and herb
Speaker 1: were wearing gold wedding rings and Bonnie a diamond engagement ring.
Speaker 2: It's bizarre they didn't take those because they're fucking stupid. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I just want to cash because that's what they can.
Speaker 1: I just think that maybe weren't even smart enough to
Speaker 1: like look to think about.
Speaker 2: I didn't find the money on the dresser. Then you're like, well, yeah.
Speaker 1: But it's because they said they ransacked the whole house
Speaker 1: looking for cash. But they were just looking for that
Speaker 1: massive sum of cash. I don't know how and why
Speaker 1: they ended up like taking nicking a transistor radio and
Speaker 1: a pair of Yeah, but why not then why wouldn't
Speaker 1: you be thinking about jewelry and stuff. They're just idiots,
Speaker 1: like dangerous, horrible criminal audience. There was one funeral held
Speaker 1: for the four Clutter family members.
Speaker 2: One funeral, Yeah, which is I.
Speaker 1: Think, well, it's more devastating because I meant there were
Speaker 1: full casks they're all together. More than one thousand people
Speaker 1: attended the funeral, which is an amazing for a small
Speaker 1: town in the fifties, like a wild.
Speaker 6: It shows how well loved and respected they were exactly,
Speaker 6: and the town was so small that the KBI offices
Speaker 6: and local sheriffs were there not because they were investigating
Speaker 6: their deaths, but because they knew Herbs.
Speaker 2: So sad.
Speaker 1: So then that makes you realize that Alvin Dewey and
Speaker 1: Earl Robinson, when they went into the house to find
Speaker 1: what they did, that was someone they knew. Oh god,
Speaker 1: it's just so much more awful. So the investigators started
Speaker 1: looking into whether it could have been a Sorry, so
Speaker 1: when I was saying about them thinking it was maybe
Speaker 1: a robbery gone wrong, when they found that their jewelry
Speaker 1: was still there, that the envelope of kash is still there,
Speaker 1: they were like, actually, it feels more like someone's trying
Speaker 1: to make it look like a robbery by kind of
Speaker 1: throwing things around and leaving an open wall, lot on
Speaker 1: the floor and stuff like that. So they started looking
Speaker 1: into whether this could have possibly been a grudge killing
Speaker 1: against shorbe they had no ideas otherwise. So like right,
Speaker 1: Herbs a prominent businessman and politician, like we know, works
Speaker 1: with political alliances. There are a few people around town
Speaker 1: who did say, like, I mean, yeah, I suppose there'll
Speaker 1: always be people unhappy with you know, a businessman who's
Speaker 1: doing well and someone aligned with politics.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Another suspect came up. Who was Nancy's boyfriend, seventeen year old.
Speaker 1: Do you remember his name?
Speaker 2: No, Bobby Rup, Bobby Roup, I'll be up, of course,
Speaker 2: Bobby Up.
Speaker 1: He was the last person to have seen the Clutter
Speaker 1: family alive. He visited the Clutter home on November fourteen
Speaker 1: to watch television with Nancy and her family and said
Speaker 1: he left around eleven PM. Now we know now investigators
Speaker 1: didn't at the time that Perry and Dick got there
Speaker 1: around midnight, so they very well could have been a
Speaker 1: fifth victim in this if Bobby Rupp was still there.
Speaker 1: But of course they didn't know that at the time.
Speaker 1: They were looking into why he could have you know,
Speaker 1: why he was the last person to see them alive.
Speaker 1: And of course, as we always say, it's always the
Speaker 1: husband and the boyfriend.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and or and.
Speaker 1: It's always the husband and the boy usually. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the motive. Boyfriend. Now, people in the town started to gossip,
Speaker 1: of course they did. There's four and gossip came up
Speaker 1: about Bobby Rupp as well. There was there were rumors
Speaker 1: that there had been tensions in the family about Nancy
Speaker 1: and Bobby's relationship because the Clutters were Seventh day a
Speaker 1: dventists and Bobby was Catholic, right, okay, and the relationship
Speaker 1: was getting pretty serious. They've been together for a couple
Speaker 1: of years, so maybe there were some fights about whether
Speaker 1: Nancy was allowed to continue seeing Bobby. But no matter
Speaker 1: of these suspicions, whether it was a business or political
Speaker 1: grudge or something to do with Bobby and Nancy relationship,
Speaker 1: police needed evidence to grow more than suspicions about anyone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the evidence they found in the house was boot prints
Speaker 1: in the blood on the floor of the basement and
Speaker 1: the one in the blood on the floor, and another
Speaker 1: bootprint on the cardboard that had been put down from
Speaker 1: so he didn't get cold before brutally murdering and probably
Speaker 1: torturing him.
Speaker 2: Bootprints is so odd in the blood, that is so strange.
Speaker 1: Well, they were very clear bootprints. One had a diamond
Speaker 1: pattern on the sole and another bootprint had a Cat's
Speaker 1: Pool brand logo. That's so distinct, very distinct, two different brands,
Speaker 1: So two different boots, and no shoes in the clutterhouse
Speaker 1: matched either of these shoes. So suddenly police are looking
Speaker 1: for two killers. Yes, yeah, police determine the type of
Speaker 1: gunshot used. And just four days after the murders, they
Speaker 1: found some upturned earth next to the highway. So someone
Speaker 1: had said that they had noticed blood on like the
Speaker 1: bridge crossing and then saw this like part like piece
Speaker 1: of upturned earth. So they called police and they police
Speaker 1: dug very like for thirty seconds. It was a very
Speaker 1: shallow grave. Found the tape, the rope, the shell casings,
Speaker 1: which of course matched the type of gun that they'd
Speaker 1: worked out had.
Speaker 2: Been used, saying they didn't try and hide it, like
Speaker 2: just a second.
Speaker 1: Fucking idiots. Maybe we'll retitle this episode.
Speaker 4: They're fucking idiots.
Speaker 1: So suddenly it seems to police that they could be
Speaker 1: looking for strangers. Perhaps there were no grudges or family
Speaker 1: dynamics at play here. It looked like someone was two
Speaker 1: people had come in and just killed them. The murders
Speaker 1: were huge news. It was a tiny, tiny community and
Speaker 1: everyone in the community was really close. People stopped leaving
Speaker 1: their homes for the first time ever. They bought locks
Speaker 1: for their homes. The idea that strangers could have come
Speaker 1: in and murdered a beloved, quiet, young religious family was
Speaker 1: more terrifying than any other prospects anyone could imagine. It
Speaker 1: quickly went from local news to national news too. Murders
Speaker 1: of this level just didn't happen in small town farming communities.
Speaker 1: And because this made national news, a man named Floyd
Speaker 1: Wells heard what happened. He was still in jail and
Speaker 1: heard it on the radio. He didn't want to get
Speaker 1: drawn into it, so we didn't say anything yet. But
Speaker 1: after two weeks he decided he needed to unload his
Speaker 1: burden where there was his conscious God the better of him.
Speaker 2: Two weeks was that yeah, oh well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had only told them a Todd, Perry and
Speaker 1: Dick about the cash, and he knew the family like
Speaker 1: he'd worked with them, so yeah, maybe his conscience couldn't
Speaker 1: handle the fact that they'd been killed. He made a
Speaker 1: plan to be called into the said the burden's office,
Speaker 1: the warden's.
Speaker 8: Office exactly, but he wanted to do so under false pretenses,
Speaker 8: because you know, you don't snitch in jail the last
Speaker 8: thing you do snitch, So someone to just send him
Speaker 8: walk into the warden's office, they'd be like, the fuck
Speaker 8: you doing wells?
Speaker 2: Snitches get stitches, That's what I've written. Oh, I had
Speaker 2: another one with chocolate nappies.
Speaker 1: That's you've said that before. I hate that.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, okay, you're.
Speaker 1: Gonna say sorry, Okay, say sorry.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So he whacked a guy so we would get caught
Speaker 1: into the warden's office.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a.
Speaker 1: Good guy too.
Speaker 5: And when I say, like, yes, didn't term yeah a whack,
Speaker 5: that's when you're like a contract killing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also that's wap. As soon as I said that,
Speaker 1: I need say that, I think I'm thinking of wham.
Speaker 2: And yah yah yeah pussy. No in old like you know,
Speaker 2: like all Batman. That's what I was thinking of, the
Speaker 2: old you know, the oldom with Adam West. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: swack pow wham. But I said, whelse pussy, that's what
Speaker 2: you said.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well I've updated this story. So Perry's writing let's sucking.
Speaker 2: Go, Yeah, to relate to kids. We're trying to get
Speaker 2: a big booktop.
Speaker 1: Booktog exactly, trying to get some young listeners.
Speaker 8: And then he said, he said, get a bucket, mopsy.
Speaker 1: You didn't need to say that. You've gone too far. Sorry.
Speaker 1: So it gets called into the wardensis and he as
Speaker 1: soon as he was in there, and he was alone
Speaker 1: with the warden, he spilled on his belief that Perry
Speaker 1: and Dick could have been the killers. He said he
Speaker 1: remembered Herb Cutter Clutter paying him for a job. So sorry,
Speaker 1: this is what he said to the warden that he
Speaker 1: had said to Dick that he remembered Herb Clutter paying
Speaker 1: him for a job with a large wad of cash
Speaker 1: that had come from a safe. He said he remembered
Speaker 1: Herb saying that he'd been paid ten thousand dollars that day,
Speaker 1: so assumed that that cash was in the safe as well,
Speaker 1: and that he described where the safe was and the
Speaker 1: farm to Dick. Now, what is interesting here is that
Speaker 1: he never was paid in cash. He never saw a
Speaker 1: safe in the Clutter farm, so whether his memories were
Speaker 1: mixed up, remember how he said as well, the office
Speaker 1: was really.
Speaker 2: Like the family yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And there was never a safe in the Clutter family
Speaker 1: farm never. So it's like he's got the memories of
Speaker 1: two different stories, two different times of being paid by
Speaker 1: someone that contract.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especial when he knew that he worked for them.
Speaker 2: It's very weird to get here.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But then like he worked there for a few months,
Speaker 1: but he worked other places in the years following as well.
Speaker 1: It's like he's got those two stories mixed up, and
Speaker 1: there were like they went back and found the check
Speaker 1: stubs that he'd been paid by herb Clutter with a check. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he's got these two stories mixed up. I don't
Speaker 1: know Fluyd Well's background. I don't know if it was,
Speaker 1: you know, a bit fifty cent short of a dollar
Speaker 1: or drug fucked or something. I don't know, But for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, he was adamant that herb Clutter had paid
Speaker 1: him ten thousand, sorry, had put him to this, had
Speaker 1: paid him in cash that he remembered it coming from
Speaker 1: a safe that was behind a desk in the office.
Speaker 1: But when he described the office and the farm, it
Speaker 1: was exactly as the like it was. The location of
Speaker 1: the office was where I said it would be.
Speaker 2: That's bizarre, Yes, Purpurpur trying to.
Speaker 1: Is that it is that like skid skid?
Speaker 2: Yeah, not that what as queen?
Speaker 7: Yas queen?
Speaker 1: Yes, hunting and also yeat, I'm gonna out of here, young,
Speaker 1: loll out loud loud. So this is a quote from
Speaker 1: Floyd Wells to the warden. I suspect I talked too
Speaker 1: much about the money. Mister Clutter had talked a lot
Speaker 1: about Perry Smith said after they got out of the joint,
Speaker 1: they could pull some jobs to get enough money for
Speaker 1: a down payment on a boat. They would run charter
Speaker 1: services for deep sea fishermen and eventually make contacts and
Speaker 1: use the boat to bring in narcotics. I didn't believe Hiccock,
Speaker 1: but he kept talking about it. I tried to talk
Speaker 1: him out of it, said he would get caught, but
Speaker 1: he said he had a plan and after the robbery
Speaker 1: he would kill everyone there and leave no witnesses. Oh God,
Speaker 1: So he'd said that to Floyd Wells in jail. So
Speaker 1: all thoughts we might have had speculation about whether the
Speaker 1: killing was or what went wrong. I mean they went
Speaker 1: in with a hunting knife and a gun. There was
Speaker 1: all this thing saying, remember how Dick had said earlier,
Speaker 1: you know, why would you do what? You know, we
Speaker 1: said we were coming here to do all of that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it sounds like they had planned to do this all along. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: So the KBI finally had the names of two suspects.
Speaker 1: While this investigation was going on, Dick and Berry were
Speaker 1: on the run. They drove to Mexico. They pawned the
Speaker 1: binoculars and the radio that they'd stolen. They stole more
Speaker 1: cars along the way so they couldn't be traced. They
Speaker 1: committed thefts and then eventually came back to the US
Speaker 1: so they could also forge checks. They kind of run
Speaker 1: out of money in Mexico and give you a way
Speaker 1: to do that.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: So they kept stealing cars, ditching, stealing, forging checks, buying
Speaker 1: things like suits, like fancy things, anything that they could.
Speaker 1: They kept in touch with their family via payphones, but
Speaker 1: always lying about where they were. All the while police
Speaker 1: were launching a massive, large scale manhunt. They went into
Speaker 1: these men's criminal records and were able to use these
Speaker 1: to find and talk to family members and former criminal
Speaker 1: associates to try to track down their movements. On December nine,
Speaker 1: so remember November fifteen, I mean overnight between November fourteen
Speaker 1: and fifteen is when the murders occurred. On December nine,
Speaker 1: police got a warrant to search Dick. He got hiccups.
Speaker 1: That was like a thwack, like the bay where you
Speaker 1: the noise sounds like what you're saying, No, don't say
Speaker 1: that word again that you're going to say it. I
Speaker 1: can feel it, you're going to just throw it out there.
Speaker 1: I don't don't desecrat Claudia's cat stickers by saying that
Speaker 1: yucky word thank you. So they got a warrant to
Speaker 1: search Dick Hiccock's or Hiccup's family farm, and there they
Speaker 1: found the hunting knife used to slit Herb Clutter's throat
Speaker 1: and the shotgun used to kill all four family members.
Speaker 1: But they didn't find was the men. They were not there.
Speaker 1: On December thirty, police in Las Vegas spotted a car
Speaker 1: that had been reported as stolen a few days early on.
Speaker 1: They pulled it over routine and he's a stolen cars.
Speaker 1: Pull these guys over and ask them about the car,
Speaker 1: and they could not believe their eyes when in the
Speaker 1: car they saw the two men whose mugshots had been
Speaker 1: plastered everywhere as the men wanted over the Clutter family
Speaker 1: murders in Kansas six weeks earlier.
Speaker 2: It's such a like a like he happens happenstance, like
Speaker 2: he was like wow, like pulling them over and realizing
Speaker 2: and not just letting them go like that.
Speaker 1: And how often do you hear about things like that?
Speaker 1: As well?
Speaker 2: The police Department's not communicating to each other.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but because this was such a big and like
Speaker 1: that would have happened if this story hadn't become such
Speaker 1: a massivenational news because it was a family in this
Speaker 1: small like farming town and everything. So Perry Smith and
Speaker 1: Dick Hickock were arrested without incident, kind of surprisingly. They
Speaker 1: were transferred back to Finley County in Kansas, and they
Speaker 1: would charged with four counts of murder. The media called
Speaker 1: them weak faced, Hiccock and runty Smith.
Speaker 9: Wow.
Speaker 2: What names.
Speaker 1: I just think it's soid. It's like so nineteen fifty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like really cute.
Speaker 5: So also personally, yeah, exactly, and like they're kind of cute, yes, yeah,
Speaker 5: like you know, weak faced and runty, Like these days
Speaker 5: we kind of go, that's like, oh, that's cute to
Speaker 5: you that, But I love You're right, it's personal.
Speaker 1: For the media to be going, We're not just going
Speaker 1: to call him face TiKKO ye yeah. Yeah. Now, when arrested,
Speaker 1: Dick immediately tried to pin the whole thing on Perry.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: But they both did admit to being there and carrying
Speaker 1: out the murders. Like they never tried to say it
Speaker 1: wasn't asked, we weren't there sure. Perry said that he
Speaker 1: like they broke pretty quickly. And Perry said that he
Speaker 1: had killed two of the family members and Dick had
Speaker 1: killed two. Dick said Perry had killed them all and
Speaker 1: that he had planned the whole thing, that Perry had
Speaker 1: planned the whole thing. Now, they wanted to be tried
Speaker 1: separately so they could kind of pin it on each other,
Speaker 1: but that was denied. They were both charged with murders
Speaker 1: no matter who pulled the triggers on the day. Their
Speaker 1: joint trial was scheduled for March twenty two, nineteen sixty,
Speaker 1: which is like so quick, like you think of out
Speaker 1: the court systems ago years, you know, it.
Speaker 2: Was drags and drags and drags.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is March from like that. It was December
Speaker 1: thirty that they were arrested. Their trial was scheduled for March.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: They were placed in different cells while they awaited their
Speaker 1: trial so that they couldn't, you know, collude. And the
Speaker 1: unit that Perry was housed in was called the ladies unit.
Speaker 1: Oh and I don't think I think there weren't women
Speaker 1: in the prison, but like it was a part of
Speaker 1: the prison that was four women.
Speaker 2: Really maybe one bit was overcrowded or something.
Speaker 1: And this unit was directly next door, like sharing internal
Speaker 1: walls with the county courthouse, and the sheriff at the
Speaker 1: time had residents at the courthouse, right. It was actually
Speaker 1: the sheriff, Earl Robinson, who he met earlier, had his
Speaker 1: own house in Holcombe, so he's like, I don't need
Speaker 1: that place. So my second in charge, like the under sheriff,
Speaker 1: the deputy sheriff, and his wife lived there. His name
Speaker 1: was Wendell, his wife's name was Josephine. They lived there,
Speaker 1: and so they were literally sharing a wall with this
Speaker 1: unit that Perry Smith was in. She would go and
Speaker 1: kind of visit the prisoners off and Josephine would, and
Speaker 1: she took a real liking to Perry Smith. She felt
Speaker 1: sorry for him and thought that he was a really
Speaker 1: kind man at heart who'd been caught up in a
Speaker 1: mess and a life of crime.
Speaker 2: Behavior you know, on the night was very strange, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Very caring and compassionately.
Speaker 1: Yeah. She would regularly make him lunch and take it
Speaker 1: and eat turkey sandwiches with the crusts cut off with
Speaker 1: him in his cell. He wrote about this a lot
Speaker 1: in his diaries and about his the kindness she showed,
Speaker 1: and it was kind of almost has been speculated a
Speaker 1: bit whether there was a bit of a relationship or
Speaker 1: something going on, or maybe kind of Perry felt love
Speaker 1: for her. Now someone else who came and visited him
Speaker 1: in prison was Truman Copodi. We're going to talk about
Speaker 1: that a bit after we've gone through the shaircase. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, an old army friend of Perry's
Speaker 1: also visited him, and he said that Perry spoke about
Speaker 1: the entire crime and the murders in gruesome detail.
Speaker 7: Wow.
Speaker 1: He said things like, quote, I saw the man's head
Speaker 1: split apart when I pulled the trigger. So this old
Speaker 1: army friend said, Perry did not seem like he had
Speaker 1: any remorse. He didn't seem like he'd been caught up
Speaker 1: in this and taken for granted as I had taken
Speaker 1: advantage of it. Was like this army friend was like, no,
Speaker 1: he's a.
Speaker 2: Cold blood killer, accounts Perry.
Speaker 1: Yes, his sister also wrote him a scathing letter which
Speaker 1: features in cold blood, saying that she hated him and
Speaker 1: wouldn't forgive him. So they were kind of very mixed
Speaker 1: reviews about this guy. Perry Smith, and the reason I
Speaker 1: brought up fromim Copoi there is he is very sympathetic
Speaker 1: towards Perry and we'll talk about that more later. So
Speaker 1: real conflicting reviews for him. Dick, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: his family were the only ones that were on his side.
Speaker 1: Everyone spoke about him as a callous, cold blooded, horrible guy.
Speaker 1: His family stood by him through everything. They said they
Speaker 1: were at court every single day for the trial. His
Speaker 1: parents really elderly at that time and really unwell, but
Speaker 1: they went to court every day. They spoke to the
Speaker 1: media they said, our son has told us that he
Speaker 1: didn't do this. We believe him the whole way through.
Speaker 2: You hear that a lot like there's been some cases
Speaker 2: in Australia recently as well where terrible, terrible things have
Speaker 2: happened and the parents have you know, stuck by them.
Speaker 1: And spoken to the media outside. Yeah, said no, he's
Speaker 1: told us his innocence, so we believe him.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you go, which you'd want your parents to do
Speaker 2: for of course, And your parents aren't going to believe
Speaker 2: what sort of person you are a lot of the time,
Speaker 2: like you know, they want to believe the best in you.
Speaker 2: So a lot of the time, they'll deny all of
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff until you die. Thank you for
Speaker 2: saying that, and also that yeah, this in this case,
Speaker 2: it's like, well, yeah, of course his parents are going
Speaker 2: to go with him and say if they'd want to know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like what we're talking about, you know, the episode
Speaker 2: with Joe Chinquei as well, like ours a new singing
Speaker 2: the Killer. Her parents were there all the time, Yeah,
Speaker 2: supporting their kid because they had a reason to believe
Speaker 2: that she was mentally insane when this happened.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, Now, when it came to the trial, both
Speaker 1: Perry and Dick tried to get an insanity defense, which
Speaker 1: is what it was called. Then that's not using the
Speaker 1: word insanity. They were both tested and it was found
Speaker 1: that they were both sane of mind at the time
Speaker 1: of killings. So the trial went ahead as normal, and
Speaker 1: it was fairly normal and fairly uneventful. There was a
Speaker 1: lot of evidence. They both admitted that they were there
Speaker 1: and that they had done it. Kind of they as
Speaker 1: a whole, yes, not agreeing on who killed who exactly. Yes,
Speaker 1: now did in particular tried like every kind of hail
Speaker 1: Mary right up to the end the death penalty was
Speaker 1: on the cards here, and he was really trying to
Speaker 1: do everything not to get that sure. He was yet
Speaker 1: pitting at ull on Perry. He also then tried to
Speaker 1: say that he so the confession that he'd made on
Speaker 1: his arrest, like when he was saying, yes, I was
Speaker 1: there and we did it, he was saying that that
Speaker 1: was forceful, that that he'd been beaten by police officers.
Speaker 1: But in the days of interviews and everything afterwards, there
Speaker 1: was never any sign of like there was no bruising,
Speaker 1: there were no injuries or anything, so it kind of
Speaker 1: was seen as a bit of it like he's just
Speaker 1: hoping for the best. At the end, Floyd Wells gave
Speaker 1: evidence and ended up admitting to knowing a lot more.
Speaker 2: What was his evidence at the start that he.
Speaker 1: He had told them that a family I used to
Speaker 1: work for that lived at this farm with this name,
Speaker 1: had a cash with ten thousand dollars a safe with
Speaker 1: the ten thousand dollars cash. But when he gave trial
Speaker 1: evidence at trial, he admitted he had actually drawn a
Speaker 1: complete diagram of the class of farm for Dick right,
Speaker 1: and said he and Dick had actually spoken about the
Speaker 1: fact that Dick was going to go and steal the
Speaker 1: money and that he would take a cut of it
Speaker 1: when he got out for giving him all this evidence.
Speaker 1: Now Dick said that this was all lies. He said, no,
Speaker 1: that never happened. I never said this again. It seems
Speaker 1: like a bit of a clutching at straws at the
Speaker 1: end to say no, no, no, that's all a lie. Definitely,
Speaker 1: it wasn't that Dick continued to pay to say it
Speaker 1: was Perry who killed all four family members. Perry had
Speaker 1: initially said they did two, they killed two people each,
Speaker 1: and during the trial actually tried to recant that. So
Speaker 1: Perry tried to recant that it was after Dick's parents
Speaker 1: spoke in the media about believing their son and saying
Speaker 1: that they were going to stand by him and believe him.
Speaker 1: That's when Perry then turned around and said, I want
Speaker 1: to change my original testimony that I killed to a
Speaker 1: Dick killed two, Yes, And he ended up saying I
Speaker 1: killed all four of them. So here's another little insight
Speaker 1: into Perry's what I'm going to call compassion for want
Speaker 1: of a better term, this actually is one bit. I
Speaker 1: don't have any sympathy or compassion for Perry. I'm going
Speaker 1: to put that out there. This is the only bit
Speaker 1: that makes me feel a bit sad. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: he's gone. This man has a family who loves him.
Speaker 1: I'm you know, feel so I don't have that. If
Speaker 1: he's got a family that loves him, I don't want
Speaker 1: his parents to think he's done this. I'll take the blame.
Speaker 1: That actually does make me feel a bit sad. You know,
Speaker 1: he's had such a horrible upbringing. There's something in him
Speaker 1: that goes off. This man's got a family who believes
Speaker 1: in him. I want to give his family that.
Speaker 2: That's a bit.
Speaker 1: However, the judge said, no, you can't recount that. You've
Speaker 1: given that evidence. Then you've given that testimony. So no,
Speaker 1: and it would have mattered in the end anyway. Both
Speaker 1: Perry Smith and Richard were found guilty and ordered to
Speaker 1: death by hanging on April fourteen, nineteen sixty five, So
Speaker 1: that's when the date of the hanging would be. So
Speaker 1: they would spend five years on death row.
Speaker 2: I don't know why they do that. I don't know
Speaker 2: why they no.
Speaker 1: I remember we had someone write in about it. They're
Speaker 1: saying there's lots for the Avenues of Appeal to take
Speaker 1: time in case anything, are there any other evidence comes up.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of places that fight against the death penalty,
Speaker 1: so there's lots of reasons that it takes a long time.
Speaker 1: Apparently at their executions, Perry Smith used his final words
Speaker 1: to condemn capital punishment. His final words were, I think
Speaker 1: it is a hell of a thing that a life
Speaker 1: has to be taken in this manner. I say this
Speaker 1: is especially because there's a great deal I could have
Speaker 1: offered society. I certainly think capital punishment is legally and
Speaker 1: morally wrong.
Speaker 2: That's a wild thing to say after you've murdered.
Speaker 1: Four people, including two children. Yeah, Richard Hickock said it's
Speaker 1: his final words. I don't have any hard feelings. You're
Speaker 1: sending me to a better place.
Speaker 2: Oh well yeah.
Speaker 1: The last sentence of Truman Capote's in Cold Blood, I
Speaker 1: think puts the deaths of Perry and Dick By hanging
Speaker 1: really well. The final sentence of the book says, at
Speaker 1: the time, not a soul in sleeping Holcombe heard them
Speaker 1: four gun shot blasts that all told ended six human lives.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's beautifully worded him.
Speaker 1: He's just the most beautiful writer. So that's you just
Speaker 1: desperately hope Helen gon is going to listen to this
Speaker 1: one day, realize you love her.
Speaker 2: I don't care if she does.
Speaker 1: You're looking right into the carry, you creep. You're going
Speaker 1: to hope she hears it, realize you love her and
Speaker 1: leaves her husband and her family.
Speaker 2: How do you know that because I looked at Helen Ghana.
Speaker 1: Stop dead panning the camera. You can't marry Helen Ghana.
Speaker 1: I think she's above your age bracket.
Speaker 2: Sure, let's talk about age then, Okay, I brought it up.
Speaker 2: I don't have anything more to say on the middle.
Speaker 2: I think I think that the the the way that
Speaker 2: Truman Capoti sums that up is it's such a beautifully
Speaker 2: put ending for the tragic loss of four lives. You know,
Speaker 2: you could say the tragic loss of six, but the
Speaker 2: tragic loss of four lives, Yes, and is beautifully beautifully
Speaker 2: worded in that way.
Speaker 1: This brings us into a bit of discussion around Truman
Speaker 1: Capodi and his involvement ye story. Again, we won't go
Speaker 1: into it too much because while we are up and
Speaker 1: coming book talk stars, this is a true crime podcast,
Speaker 1: not a book talk podcast. That one's coming later.
Speaker 2: Yes, of course, it is you better get a bucket
Speaker 2: and a mob.
Speaker 1: Stop saying that. Don't say that. So, as I said
Speaker 1: right back in the intro, Truman Compote decided he wanted
Speaker 1: to write a non fiction novel and he went to Kansas.
Speaker 1: Yeah four Perry and Dick were court so when it
Speaker 1: was still an active, you know, murder case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was quite early, yes.
Speaker 1: And then he ended up staying there for It took
Speaker 1: him six years to write the book because there was
Speaker 1: the year leading up to it, the trial, everything, and
Speaker 1: then five years on death row. And he was adamant.
Speaker 1: He wasn't going to finish the book until the story
Speaker 1: was finished, and that to him was the end of
Speaker 1: the lives of Dick and Perry. Now, he obviously spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time in the community. There is a
Speaker 1: lot in the book that speaks about the community. He
Speaker 1: interviews lots of different people who live there. And when
Speaker 1: I say he interviews, like, it doesn't read like an
Speaker 1: interview with He writes it, you know, beautiful, beautiful prose
Speaker 1: about you know, the conversations he had with people. But
Speaker 1: it's not like she said this and I said this.
Speaker 1: He says, like the way it's written is, you know,
Speaker 1: talking about that Susan Well, I think his sur name
Speaker 1: was the friend. He'll tell her story, but we know
Speaker 1: it's through the words of him having interviewed her. Interestingly,
Speaker 1: the book is written in a way that it does
Speaker 1: just read like a novel. You're not. He never says
Speaker 1: like I was there and I did this. We know
Speaker 1: because Truman Capoti wrote it that it's from his interviews
Speaker 1: that everything's taken. But it's not. It's not in third
Speaker 1: person or anything. You know, it's like, no, So he's
Speaker 1: gone through all of Perry's diaries, he's seen all the
Speaker 1: letters that they've each got in and out of prison.
Speaker 1: He himself became very close with Perry Smith. Now this
Speaker 1: is something that is more known from Truman Capote rather
Speaker 1: than is spoken about in the book.
Speaker 2: It was a bit of speculation, and I think you
Speaker 2: can subtly read into.
Speaker 1: Yes, I believe, not subtly yeah, okay, I think. And
Speaker 1: it's even interesting in researching the story, like you know,
Speaker 1: kind of reading different articles and listening to different podcasts
Speaker 1: and stuff about this. I have I've written my script
Speaker 1: today that in a way that I believe is more
Speaker 1: these are the facts of what it happened. Absolutely, Whereas
Speaker 1: a lot of the way that it's spoken about is
Speaker 1: you know, and Perry was really, you know, pulled along
Speaker 1: by Dick and he didn't want to be there, but
Speaker 1: he was impressionable and young. I believe personally that that
Speaker 1: comes from Truman Capote's writing of Perry. Yes, because Truman
Speaker 1: Capote was sympathetic and empathetic towards Perry. Yes, I am
Speaker 1: not he murdered for innocent people.
Speaker 6: Ye.
Speaker 1: Again, Truman Capoti doesn't write in the book that he
Speaker 1: is sympathetic and empathetic towards him. He doesn't, but the
Speaker 1: way he writes about Perry compared to how he writes
Speaker 1: about Dick is very obvious biased in my in my opinion,
Speaker 1: I yes again for the kids, beautiful pronunciation of h
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm really proud of you. I'm really
Speaker 1: proud of you. There's quite a lot of speculation that
Speaker 1: Treman Compodi was actually in love with Perry s. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's quite a lot spoken.
Speaker 2: About the film.
Speaker 1: U that's quite a part of it, and I think
Speaker 1: as a reader, just my opinion of that is that
Speaker 1: that comes through quite strongly. I think he's very sympathetic
Speaker 1: towards him and you know personally, but I mean we
Speaker 1: speak about this on the podcast a lot as well.
Speaker 1: I'm less I find less sympathy in talking about killers
Speaker 1: and stuff than often you do. And I think that's
Speaker 1: again interestingly, you're reading Helen Garner's books like you understood
Speaker 1: a little bit of the sympathy towards Robert Farquerson. Stopped
Speaker 1: looking at the camera every time I talk about Helen Gara,
Speaker 1: You've mean really weird Helen garns. No, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to finish that sentence. Yeah, you, after reading Helen's book
Speaker 1: This House of Grief, You've found yourself kind of going, oh,
Speaker 1: I can understand someone having a little bit more empathy
Speaker 1: towards Robert Farquerson, Yes than I understood before.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: However, me reading in Cold Blood has not made me
Speaker 1: feel more empathy towards Perry Smith. I think probably while
Speaker 1: reading it I did, But then I've taken myself out
Speaker 1: and I've gone, no, this is a biased account of
Speaker 1: what happened from having spent it well, of course, yeah, exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Triman compared had spent a lot of time with Perry Smith,
Speaker 1: a lot, like literally in his prison cell for years,
Speaker 1: and not just up until the trial, but for the
Speaker 1: five years on death row afterwards, it became very close
Speaker 1: and he knew him very well, and I think he
Speaker 1: writes about him really quite biased.
Speaker 7: Ye.
Speaker 1: Now, I said I was going to bring up the
Speaker 1: sisters as well, that Avianna and Beverly. They are not
Speaker 1: mentioned in the book. They're obviously Trim Commode is obviously
Speaker 1: not interviewed. That they didn't want to be part of it,
Speaker 1: And there is really an ethical and kind of moral
Speaker 1: thing there about you know, this is their family story,
Speaker 1: and Trim Commodis very much made it his. Yes, However,
Speaker 1: you look at the other side of that and go, well,
Speaker 1: the reason we're still talking about it in twenty twenty six,
Speaker 1: which some people can say is a good thing and
Speaker 1: others not. But I think we're, you know, remembering the
Speaker 1: lives of these four innocent people, that's because Triumn Compodi
Speaker 1: wrote about it. I'm sure we probably wouldn't know about
Speaker 1: it otherwise, right, Sure, just one of those small town
Speaker 1: murders that kind of guys. Maybe we would have done
Speaker 1: six years down the road in this podcast when we're
Speaker 1: looking for more stories and those kind of things. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I Evianna and Beverley didn't want to be part of
Speaker 1: Trim Compode's story, and I think that's quite unfair on
Speaker 1: them that their family story has been told so publicly
Speaker 1: and so wildly widely. There was a lot of backlash
Speaker 1: against the book the Garden City community because Trumancobody had
Speaker 1: come in as like he stood out like a soulfa.
Speaker 1: Of course, he is high society in New York. He's
Speaker 1: got that odd voice and openly gay man in the
Speaker 1: fifties and Kansas was not like that. No, Holcome was
Speaker 1: not like that. He spoke to everyone in the community.
Speaker 1: People gave him time and everything, and he assured them
Speaker 1: that it was going to be a factual telling of
Speaker 1: what happened, and a lot of people said that it
Speaker 1: didn't really come across like that no to them. So
Speaker 1: there was a lot of backlash that was it's really
Speaker 1: a lot of people hate the book, a lot of
Speaker 1: like especially at the time, a lot of people loved it,
Speaker 1: certainly critically acclaimed. You know, to this day, I'm here
Speaker 1: saying it's one of my favorite books. John Ronson's that
Speaker 1: it was one of.
Speaker 2: His favorite books, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's my NonStop rant for you anything.
Speaker 2: I think it is an amazing book as it is.
Speaker 2: I mean, any book that you read, like whether it's
Speaker 2: a John Romp and whether it's a John Saffrain or
Speaker 2: Helen Ghana, whatever it is, they're going to put.
Speaker 7: That.
Speaker 1: He does the documentaries, but it's the same thing, kind
Speaker 1: of like taking putting himself in the stry.
Speaker 2: The way through if you're going to go from like
Speaker 2: you know, a documentary maker. But as writers of true crime,
Speaker 2: they always put themselves in the story and it's their connection,
Speaker 2: it's their human story telling.
Speaker 1: In cor blood doesn't really not in the same way
Speaker 1: that John Ronson and Helen Ghana's they'll actually say like, yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: Truman Commodis doesn't do that. It is a telling of
Speaker 1: the story from someone who was there. But we only
Speaker 1: know he's there because we know that.
Speaker 2: The book that he was No, which is you know,
Speaker 2: I haven't seen the way that book was done.
Speaker 1: Again, I can't think of it. No, we should look
Speaker 1: into that for our book talk that we start in
Speaker 1: case we're wrong.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't think I've read a book that's
Speaker 2: like that again.
Speaker 1: No, Yeah, that it is first person without being first.
Speaker 2: Yes, which is really interesting because I don't know the
Speaker 2: first person that did it in first person sense, like
Speaker 2: I don't know that. I don't know who would have
Speaker 2: captured that.
Speaker 1: And we could be someone taking the idea from Truman
Speaker 1: Compod and going, oh, but I'll use the word.
Speaker 2: I y yeah, which is fascinating. But I think that
Speaker 2: there are opinions in there. Yeah, that's interesting for someone
Speaker 2: that's not written in first person as I believe this. Yes,
Speaker 2: it's way it is written.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's written much more like a novel.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, which you know you could go, this is
Speaker 2: a piece of fiction.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, And I think there would be people have
Speaker 1: picked up and read the book thinking, like not knowing
Speaker 1: that just knowing Trumans in Cold Blood is a famous
Speaker 1: book that I've heard of it, you know, thee Orange
Speaker 1: Penguin classic book. Yes, there would be people who don't
Speaker 1: know that's actually about a true crime that Truman Compodi
Speaker 1: himself went and like investigate.
Speaker 2: I think I'm going to do James fra a Million
Speaker 2: Little Pieces soon, because that is another book that you
Speaker 2: know was you can go is it a great piece
Speaker 2: of nonfiction or is a great piece of fiction? And
Speaker 2: I think when you look at two things, sometimes you
Speaker 2: get excited when it's when it's true true. Yea more excited.
Speaker 1: You're funny with movies and stuff like, you'll enjoy a
Speaker 1: movie more if you think if they say it's based
Speaker 1: on true, not more than another movie, but more than
Speaker 1: you otherwise would have it. It's like if you.
Speaker 2: See like a drama film and it happens to be funny,
Speaker 2: you go, how amazing it was funny as well you
Speaker 2: see a comedy film.
Speaker 1: Two different genres to get really it was really that funny.
Speaker 2: I think it's the expectation of what it is. And
Speaker 2: when you when you look at something like this Truman Capodi,
Speaker 2: you go, oh my god, what an amazing writer. I
Speaker 2: think I would have enjoyed it as a book just
Speaker 2: as much if I didn't know that it was a true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Whereas I don't know. I can't answer that because
Speaker 1: I know that I read it knowing. I even knew.
Speaker 1: I knew about the fact that people thought were not
Speaker 1: the fact of the speculation that he was in love
Speaker 1: with Perry Smith. I knew all of that going into
Speaker 1: That's why I read it. I knew about that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I don't know how I would have found it otherwise.
Speaker 1: But I just I love like his writing so beautiful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it is. It's fascinating just to think
Speaker 2: of would it be as well known if it wasn't
Speaker 2: for no, I don't think no. But then also the
Speaker 2: horror of you know, the surviving members of that family
Speaker 2: that had to live through that and be like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, cold blood, like they would bring that up
Speaker 2: as a point of reference for the murder that took
Speaker 2: place of their families.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what is that eighty years ago?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Maths, maths, And it's still like a really well
Speaker 2: known story today.
Speaker 1: Well there you go. Now you know it even better.
Speaker 7: Than you may have.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I didn't know several facts from that after
Speaker 2: reading the book. So it's like it's interesting. I think
Speaker 2: for me, hearing the story as a standalone's interesting because
Speaker 2: the facts they are, you think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think all thets that I've said in this
Speaker 1: are in the book, but they they're spread out, yes,
Speaker 1: and they're mixed up and diluted with so many other
Speaker 1: stories and things as well. That's just hearing it as
Speaker 1: it like this is the true crime story, and of.
Speaker 2: Course you know, you also have hearsay and you have
Speaker 2: people commenting on it, and you have you know, three
Speaker 2: different means. So that's a really interesting part of it
Speaker 2: as well, where I think when you just look at
Speaker 2: a murder as it is a callous, awful, inhuman thing,
Speaker 2: you go, oh no, this is a this was a
Speaker 2: murder of a family. Yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Let's not spend five years in a cell with
Speaker 1: turkey sandwiches with the crust cut off with one of
Speaker 1: the murderers and start to feel sorry for him. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about the murder.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is absolutely fascinating. So do you love?
Speaker 2: Thank you for telling me that the air.
Speaker 1: Condition has been on this whole time and I feel
Speaker 1: like my blood is a bit cold. What in cold blood?
Speaker 10: Oh?
Speaker 2: I thought you said your bladder is a bit cold.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the up you're bladder. That's a funny thing
Speaker 2: to say. We're back in a moment with the thank
Speaker 2: you gee for doing the story this week. Are you
Speaker 2: ready for some letters?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 11: I do.
Speaker 1: You know why I just jumped to a new spaker,
Speaker 1: but I.
Speaker 2: Was scared that this comes from Susie, Hi, Sammy, and Georgia.
Speaker 2: I am a road nurse and listen to your episodes
Speaker 2: driving between clients. My favorite episode was with Elizabeth from
Speaker 2: best dead. It's not a crime, but I had a
Speaker 2: Thursday treat suggestion. It's in Georgia's fave placed, Tasmania and
Speaker 2: is the disappearance of Selene Kremer.
Speaker 1: Oh, hang on, I know the name, but I can't
Speaker 1: think of the case.
Speaker 2: The community rallied to find answers for a family when
Speaker 2: the officials didn't. This case is as neat as a resolution. Oh,
Speaker 2: this case is at near resolution.
Speaker 1: I'm sure nearly at its resolution.
Speaker 2: Nearly at a resolution. Rob Parsons YouTube is a great
Speaker 2: place to start the good work. Susie.
Speaker 1: Oh, thanks Susie. I loves.
Speaker 2: That was cools.
Speaker 1: I just made it up.
Speaker 2: That was really cool. This is a voicemail call Them
Speaker 2: Speak pipe from Ali.
Speaker 7: Hi, Sammy and Georgia.
Speaker 11: My name's Emma, No, just kidding, it's Alie.
Speaker 7: Long time listeners. Second time.
Speaker 11: Going to say how much I've been loving the pod
Speaker 11: and loving the longer episodes. They are really enjoyable and
Speaker 11: they're perfect for me for my drive to work. I
Speaker 11: managed to finish one on the way to and from
Speaker 11: each day.
Speaker 7: That's fantastic. Definitely. I think the girls are loving when.
Speaker 11: I come in in the morning and say, oh my God, guys,
Speaker 11: guess what's just happened on my podcast that I listened to?
Speaker 7: And I told them all.
Speaker 11: About it, and the first thing they say is, who's died?
Speaker 7: Now? What's happened? Now?
Speaker 11: What terrible things are you about to tell us? So
Speaker 11: that's really fun but loving it.
Speaker 7: And next thing is I have a case for you.
Speaker 11: Oh, I would really love to hear your take on
Speaker 11: the Rachelle Child's case. What's the one that I heard
Speaker 11: of and stumbled across I guess and have become really
Speaker 11: invested in. And it's just one that really sits close
Speaker 11: to home and would love to hear your take on it.
Speaker 11: Say hi to Paud's and Digs and I can't wait
Speaker 11: to hear more from you both soon.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you Ali, Emma, em there's so many Thank
Speaker 1: you Ali.
Speaker 2: And Jemma seemed to be the big one. So Jemma
Speaker 2: both g E M m A and j E M
Speaker 2: m A. It mixes it that.
Speaker 1: One could I just I love that as well. I
Speaker 1: love hearing you say when you go into work and say,
Speaker 1: I guess what happened on my podcast? I love that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. This one comes from Emily.
Speaker 1: You're going to say, Emma, Hi, Sammy and Georgia.
Speaker 10: Big fan of the podcast here and I'm a fellow
Speaker 10: Sea Change.
Speaker 7: Tragic as well. In the day.
Speaker 10: Coming to you this morning from the Inner West from
Speaker 10: glorious Williamstown, where.
Speaker 2: It's a beautiful world for.
Speaker 10: An absolute scorch yesterday. And I'm sending you this message
Speaker 10: because I listened to your podcast last week and I
Speaker 10: thought you might be interested to know that the Pearl
Speaker 10: Bay Courthouse in the TV series Sea Change is actually
Speaker 10: the Surf Life Saving Clubhouse here at Williamstown.
Speaker 7: And there's a little Clark memorializing it with a little
Speaker 7: bit of information. So I'll send you some pics.
Speaker 10: Who would have thought that the glorious Pearl Bay Courthouse
Speaker 10: it's here in your home city of Oh my god,
Speaker 10: in Williamstown. I walk past it every day with my
Speaker 10: dog and we have very fond memories of Sea Change.
Speaker 10: Will I do my dog doesn't. So keep up the
Speaker 10: great work on the podcast. It gives me a good
Speaker 10: laugh every twice a week. I don't know how you
Speaker 10: do it.
Speaker 1: No, thank you, Oh my god, Emily, that's amazing. Okay,
Speaker 1: that is blowing our minds. Williams add Is like like
Speaker 1: twenty minute drive from here is Emmy. We could go
Speaker 1: there right now if we want to do there's.
Speaker 2: Vot you attach photos, So as promised, here are some
Speaker 2: pics of Pearl Bay Courthouse from my walk to Willie
Speaker 2: Beach this morning to accompany my voice message. And yeah,
Speaker 2: there's a plaque that says the sea change.
Speaker 1: All the locations were like out in regional Victoria.
Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that why it's probably there Williamstown and right
Speaker 2: there because I was wondering how a court has on.
Speaker 1: The beach, but it's you're actually caught out.
Speaker 7: I know.
Speaker 2: But in the shops to court, what is this? Do
Speaker 2: they film it separately? Like what is going on? That's
Speaker 2: so we should do a little.
Speaker 1: Expedition. Yeah, absolutely, I was thinking excursion expedition came out,
Speaker 1: but then I remembered I'm an excursion.
Speaker 2: Well, Emily can show us around for the next one.
Speaker 2: This is a another speak pipe that comes from Hannah.
Speaker 7: Hi, Georgia Love and Sammy P. This is Hannah.
Speaker 12: I love listening to your podcast every week, multiple times
Speaker 12: a week. It feels like I'm just listening to all
Speaker 12: the latest Cross with Friends, throwing a good dose of crime.
Speaker 12: It's just really makes my week so funny. Story back
Speaker 12: in twenty thirteen, I went to LA and I was
Speaker 12: meeting one of my friends there. She got me to
Speaker 12: book the accommodation brokeun new student wanted something budget friendly
Speaker 12: and near to where my tour was leading.
Speaker 1: From books stay on me.
Speaker 12: I arrived to date bellier than she did, and I
Speaker 12: barely slept the first night because I was so creeped out.
Speaker 7: I couldn't understand why.
Speaker 12: I just got the egg feeling right from the God
Speaker 12: my friend felt the same thing when she ruked.
Speaker 7: Anyway, many minuyears later, I just.
Speaker 12: Happened to be flipping through the Prime documentaries on Netflix
Speaker 12: and actually found the Cecil Hotel documentary and dispatch myself
Speaker 12: lasting that i'd actually stayed there for.
Speaker 7: A few days. Anyway, keep up the good work.
Speaker 1: Hi, Oh my god, Brad. Yeah, theilor that is amazing, incredible,
Speaker 1: sonyone doesn't know we're talking about the Eliza Lamb episode.
Speaker 1: You speak about the Cesil Hotel. Also, I did a
Speaker 1: continue to starting in La in twenty.
Speaker 2: Twelve, did you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Hannah, we nearly could have met Hannah.
Speaker 2: What the hell?
Speaker 7: What?
Speaker 1: But I didn't stay at the Stale Main.
Speaker 2: Oh that's isn't it.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: Stay there.
Speaker 1: I love that she said that she got the creeps
Speaker 1: from it and didn't know why because of the portal.
Speaker 2: The portal which we all believe in. Definitely the poor
Speaker 2: Let's leave on a beautiful letter, okay from Leah. Hey,
Speaker 2: Sammy and Georgia love the pod. I have to say
Speaker 2: I'm a little obsessed.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: I only discovered you guys this year sow twenty six,
Speaker 2: and I've already listened to every single episode. I just
Speaker 2: wanted to send it in a case suggestion you might
Speaker 2: be interested in. I'd love to hear some Australians cover
Speaker 2: this one, because I'm only ever found American podcast talking
Speaker 2: about it, which feels pretty strange given it happened here.
Speaker 2: It was around two thousand and six. I was living
Speaker 2: in nar A Hill at the time, and one day
Speaker 2: there were helicopters everywhere over our street. Later that day
Speaker 2: we found out via the news that murders had taken
Speaker 2: place in our street. The case is more commonly known
Speaker 2: as the Bodies in the Barrel's murders in now Ah.
Speaker 1: Because the bodies in the Barrels snow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah exactly. I think it would be really compelling,
Speaker 2: a really compelling case for you guys to cover, especially
Speaker 2: since there wasn't a lot of coverage out there. And
Speaker 2: it's always stuck with me because I was actually there
Speaker 2: at the time. Anyway, love your work, Keep doing what
Speaker 2: you do by Leah and she's a little yellow love Hunt.
Speaker 1: Oh I love that. Oh, Lea, that's great. I know
Speaker 1: that is like I know the story but not well,
Speaker 1: so I'm going to look into that and yeah, let's
Speaker 1: be the first Australian podcast to do that. That also
Speaker 1: reminds me of the story. I should have said this
Speaker 1: at the start. A friend of mine did some work
Speaker 1: for someone who hosts another crime podcast. Yes this is
Speaker 1: not another crime podcast, they are then actual one. Anyway,
Speaker 1: she said, my friend said to me to she shows.
Speaker 1: I don't know if this person was having a direct
Speaker 1: dig at you or for or if I just thought
Speaker 1: they were because I'm your friend. But this person said
Speaker 1: I hate when crime podcasts try to be funny. I
Speaker 1: was like, green is not your color.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, We're not trying.
Speaker 1: To be funny about the crimes. Yeah, and actually we
Speaker 1: don't try to be funny at all. All right, we're
Speaker 1: just actually.
Speaker 2: I'm going to get end actually on two quick out
Speaker 2: Spotify comments because I absolutely love reading Spotify comments.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they're about a specific episode.
Speaker 2: It's so good.
Speaker 6: We love that, so please please keep doing that.
Speaker 2: This is from Emma, Hey, Sammy and love Emma here
Speaker 2: once again, which one. Thank you so much for reading
Speaker 2: my email on the podcast. I just wanted to say.
Speaker 2: I put the time stamps in my email so the
Speaker 2: audio clips could be played on the episode lave faces.
Speaker 2: Look you just read out the time I just read
Speaker 2: a look, Emma, I'll be honest. We sometimes record on
Speaker 2: a Sunday, which means that the amount of editing I
Speaker 2: had to do for the episodes is quite big. So
Speaker 2: I'm sorry I didn't actually go back and put the
Speaker 2: actual clips in there as well.
Speaker 1: But he'll do it now.
Speaker 2: No, we're runn late again.
Speaker 1: You look so upset.
Speaker 2: We always say we're going to get ahead on this podcast,
Speaker 2: we never really have. And this one, which is one
Speaker 2: of my absolute favorites so far. It comes from I
Speaker 2: think your name is Clara Lanise. I think it might
Speaker 2: be two words, or if your whole if your first
Speaker 2: name is Claren Clarinese. Clarine, congrats making it to a year.
Speaker 2: Such a great podcast. Bring on the Feathers McGraw episode,
Speaker 2: and then Penguin emojeng emoi, which is actually correct because
Speaker 2: it's not a.
Speaker 3: Chook, it's not a.
Speaker 2: Now we have amazing, amazing voicemails, and we've got so
Speaker 2: many internet letters as well that keep coming through. We
Speaker 2: will read them all and we will get to them all.
Speaker 2: We absolutely love it. Gee, how can people leave these?
Speaker 1: If they want to leave us, they can email us
Speaker 1: at Sammy at just another company dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: They can leave us a voice note VI via website
Speaker 1: called speak Pipe, and the link to that is in
Speaker 1: the show notes of the episode and in the link
Speaker 1: tree on our Instagram, which I'm so glad you asked.
Speaker 1: The handle is not another crime podcast. Guess what it's
Speaker 1: the same on TikTok, and guess what it's the same
Speaker 1: on YouTube our full episode. You can see my life
Speaker 1: of a show, got miss Piggy t shirt and you
Speaker 1: can at the moment I did spit take out of
Speaker 1: and I hadn't had any thing to drink, so it was.
Speaker 2: Just my address. I think at the start.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have said it's your address, we should definitely
Speaker 1: you can see Sammy staring down the barrel while trying
Speaker 1: to flirt with Helen.
Speaker 6: Ghana through the lens.
Speaker 1: You can also leave us a powdry peep. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: forget about Yeah, I gotta look up. I keep it
Speaker 1: listed all the if they don't just like come.
Speaker 2: To mind, well, yeah, I'm going to talk about my
Speaker 2: special little bit more before you actually and because I
Speaker 2: want to tell you to go and bloody check it out.
Speaker 2: I actually had started to write down I've got mine.
Speaker 1: Are you ready for mine?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 1: That you have to fill out? Oh I feel good
Speaker 1: saying this is this makes me so angry. When you arrive,
Speaker 1: if you've been lunky enough to travel overseas and your
Speaker 1: eyes back into Australia, you still have to fill out
Speaker 1: a physical arrivals card with a pen and paper. Oh yes,
Speaker 1: on the plane to go through customs. It is the
Speaker 1: only country that I've been to that you still need
Speaker 1: to physically hand right these things. And it's so annoying,
Speaker 1: and it makes it even more annoying that the paper
Speaker 1: is on it's like a really light orange color, so
Speaker 1: you can't really see the white boxes that you meant
Speaker 1: to put the letters in, and I just it's just
Speaker 1: become like a proper pet Peeve to me that like
Speaker 1: there's nothing. It's fine. I can write the things, but
Speaker 1: I just when I see them handing them around, I'm like, God, damn,
Speaker 1: I update your freaking system.
Speaker 2: It should be a QR code by now. For god,
Speaker 2: mine is when you heat food on a plate and
Speaker 2: the plate is absolute lava. The food is emotionally very old,
Speaker 2: emotionally emotionally very cold. So that's mine for this week.
Speaker 2: That is my god damn, poor Drey Peeve. And can
Speaker 2: I say, gee love. What I'm gonna do now is
Speaker 2: I'm going to do a live look at how many
Speaker 2: people have watched my specials. Oh my god, my god,
Speaker 2: because this is at the moment it came out on
Speaker 2: four hours ago, now, twenty four hours ago. I'm going
Speaker 2: to do a live look see I people are watching.
Speaker 2: It's gonna I's gonna play, It's gonna play it. I'm
Speaker 2: on sixteen thousand views. Fuck off, i am on sixteen
Speaker 2: thousand views, So you can.
Speaker 4: Check that out.
Speaker 2: Sam one long face sixteen, I'm on sixteen thousand years,
Speaker 2: sixteen thousand views.
Speaker 5: Oh my my, oh my goodness, the proudest friend in
Speaker 5: the whole damn world.
Speaker 1: Oh you said I can see a Timmy Jit song.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, course, but yeah, I would love it. Like honestly,
Speaker 2: what happens is, I've done this show for a very
Speaker 2: very long time. This is the last time that I
Speaker 2: did it. And it costs a lot to film a special.
Speaker 2: It costs a lot to do all of that. That's
Speaker 2: just me out of pocket. I'm not going to make
Speaker 2: any money out of this. On YouTube famously free and
Speaker 2: the Comedy Club, Comedy Republic put this up, so I
Speaker 2: would bloody love it if you would just would just
Speaker 2: watch it, share it with a friend, put it on
Speaker 2: social media and tag me and all reshare it because
Speaker 2: I absolutely love that if got it out there to me.
Speaker 1: More importantly, you guys will love it like it's therefore
Speaker 1: your entertainment. Sammy doesn't make anything from you watching it,
Speaker 1: but you will make your night by watching it. It's
Speaker 1: so beautiful. My friend messaged me she watched it last
Speaker 1: night and messaged me afterwards and said, Sammy's comedy special
Speaker 1: was dot dot dot beautiful. Question was like, I was
Speaker 1: not expecting that it was so funny, but it was
Speaker 1: really beautiful and it is as.
Speaker 2: Your friend, Taylor. I thank you, Taylor, Love you Taylor.
Speaker 2: Yeah I was. I have also been swift several podcasts.
Speaker 2: I've been on the Moment with Mith Warhurst. I have
Speaker 2: been on Plumbing the Death Star. So if you want
Speaker 2: to listen to those, I'm on all those and Uncomfortable
Speaker 2: Conversations with Josh Zips to promote my special So yeah,
Speaker 2: I'd love it if you actually and we talk about
Speaker 2: this podcast a lot on myth Warers podcast about true
Speaker 2: crime quite a lot as well.
Speaker 1: The only thing I have to promote this week is
Speaker 1: my voice in the start of Tim.
Speaker 2: Mintionin Fantastic No Shoes. Girly do it?
Speaker 1: Do you want me to sing a Tim mintionon song
Speaker 1: or do you want me to do a Jeez Christ
Speaker 1: Superstar song that Tim mintionin.
Speaker 2: I would like you to do a Tim Mention song.
Speaker 1: You go, girlfriend, I wanted to start. Okay, come home,
Speaker 1: Cardinal pell. I know you're not feeling well. I don't
Speaker 1: remembered the odd words.
Speaker 2: Do you have a song that you know of his
Speaker 2: that you maybe you could see.
Speaker 1: Just picked on this podcast's great superstar? Well give me
Speaker 1: another one?
Speaker 2: Okay, Dark side. No, okay, canvas bags. Oh okay, that's
Speaker 2: as good as well.
Speaker 1: Now I'm blanking because all that.
Speaker 2: We are going to end today on a song. Richard
Speaker 2: Richard Cheese. Richard Cheese, He's a Vegas performer.
Speaker 8: In the house.
Speaker 9: There's some wores in the.
Speaker 2: House, SARTI fried free.
Speaker 9: Make that week wet ass pussy, make that pull out game.
Speaker 9: We beat it up, baby, nice, old good, extra large,
Speaker 9: extra hard, this pussy ride in your face, swave your nose.
Speaker 2: Like a credit card. I want enough, I want to go.
Speaker 2: I do a kiggle. Whoa, it's in soil okay out
Speaker 2: here anyway, everybody, Thank you was always for listening. We'll
Speaker 2: see you on Thursday. Leave the five star rating. Leg
Speaker 2: of five star review you simply must have, must you.
Speaker 2: Thank you to Tams and Hayes is always doing the artwork.
Speaker 2: Thank you Oliver Clark for doing the music and the
Speaker 2: theme song.
Speaker 1: Watch Sammy Special go onto his instagram Sammy Peterson Unofficial
Speaker 1: and find it her.
Speaker 2: Pig power hell watch us on YouTube. Support us as
Speaker 2: much as you can, share this podcast with a friend
Speaker 2: and tag us on social media.
Speaker 1: And I love you, I.
Speaker 2: Love you bye everybody. TikTok book talk Star,