Speaker 1: Hello.
Speaker 2: My name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud Yr the
Speaker 2: Order Kerney Whalbury and a waddery woman. And before we
Speaker 2: get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would
Speaker 2: like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of
Speaker 2: which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging
Speaker 2: the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through
Speaker 2: as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and
Speaker 2: the storytelling of you to make a difference for today
Speaker 2: and lasting impact for tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Let's get into it. She's on the Money, She's on
Speaker 1: the Money.
Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money. The podcasts
Speaker 3: millennials who want financial freedom. My name is Becksied and
Speaker 3: with me is Victoria Divine.
Speaker 1: Hello. Beck, Are you excited for this episode?
Speaker 3: I'm so excited.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about why women are overworked and
Speaker 1: underpage So it's a little bit of a spicy episode.
Speaker 1: Did you know that Australia's national gender pay gap is
Speaker 1: currently sitting at twenty two point eight percent. No, no,
Speaker 1: the insane right. Men are twice as likely to be
Speaker 1: in the top earning bracket and women are one point
Speaker 1: five times more likely to be in the lowest.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: In fact, every single industry in Australia has a gender
Speaker 1: pay gap that favors men, and the gender pay gap
Speaker 1: increased in eight industries in twenty twenty two. Oh my disgusting.
Speaker 1: That is really wild, so frustrating. So today we're going
Speaker 1: to be talking about why women are overworked and underpaid.
Speaker 1: We're going to be looking at the maths, the stereotypes,
Speaker 1: the quiet and the overt forces in society that contribute
Speaker 1: to this situation and what we can do about it.
Speaker 1: Before we go there, though, I think I really want
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that the Australian Bureau of Statistics, while it
Speaker 1: is a fantastic data source one of my favorites. In fact, Beck,
Speaker 1: you're probably not as keen on them as I am,
Speaker 1: because like I'm just a stats nerd, Like I literally
Speaker 1: have a minor in statistics at university. But I really
Speaker 1: enjoy following the abs on Instagram.
Speaker 3: Oh, they have an Instagram.
Speaker 1: They have an Instagram and their content is elite, very funny,
Speaker 1: like very funny, very funny content. I will show you later.
Speaker 1: They have away with their numbers and if you don't
Speaker 1: follow the abs on Instagram, you're honestly missing out. Also
Speaker 1: the social media manager who runs that, if you want
Speaker 1: to talk to me, I would let you run cheese
Speaker 1: on the money. Yeah yeah, so slide into my DMS.
Speaker 1: But the thing I wanted to mention about the Australian
Speaker 1: Bureau of Statistics. While they are really good at data
Speaker 1: and obviously social media, they are not so good at inclusivity.
Speaker 1: So we only have various stereotyped topics to talk about
Speaker 1: today because that data doesn't exist for our indigenous friends,
Speaker 1: it doesn't exist for our transgender friends, it doesn't exist
Speaker 1: for anybody in the LGBTQIA plus community. And I think
Speaker 1: that that's worth talking about here because as much as
Speaker 1: we can look at the national gender pay gap that's
Speaker 1: going to be calculated off these statistics, it's going to
Speaker 1: be even bigger for our friends facing those diversities. So
Speaker 1: I wanted to highlight that first, that you guys are
Speaker 1: always front of mind, and it's not just men versus
Speaker 1: women from our perspective, but this is the data that
Speaker 1: we have, and I think any step in the right
Speaker 1: direction is a step towards equality in general. And I
Speaker 1: just wanted that to be upfront, Beck, because I feel
Speaker 1: like it's really unfair that I can't talk more comprehensively
Speaker 1: to even more information that would benefit our community, because
Speaker 1: unfortunately it does not exist.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for acknowledging that. V. That's definitely
Speaker 3: a very good point to make. So those numbers that
Speaker 3: you just mentioned reported by the Workplace Gender Equality Agency,
Speaker 3: how exactly are they calculated?
Speaker 1: So the national gender pay gap is calculated by the
Speaker 1: WGEA using data that comes from the ABS, the Australian
Speaker 1: Bureau of Statistics, my one true Instagram love and I
Speaker 1: actually have some more stats for you, and I don't
Speaker 1: think you're gonna like them. The WEGA data for the
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one SLASH twenty twenty two reporting period showed
Speaker 1: that women received an average remuneration of ninety three hundred
Speaker 1: and nine dollars per annum, which I thought was high.
Speaker 1: Did you think that was high? That feels very high. Yeah,
Speaker 1: knowing the community, knowing what our average income is, I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is all working women though, so
Speaker 1: we're talking all lens of the spectrum. This includes women
Speaker 1: who are stay at home mums, and it also includes
Speaker 1: women who were judges and you know, really fancy, big
Speaker 1: dog doctors and own their own businesses. So this is
Speaker 1: every single woman that is working in Australia. Just to
Speaker 1: contextualize that a little bit, because I looked at it
Speaker 1: and I was like, that's not the average income of
Speaker 1: my community members. Yeah, some of you it will be,
Speaker 1: and you'll be like, oh, that makes sense. But the
Speaker 1: thing that annoys me men in the same position one
Speaker 1: hundred and sixteen and ninety seven dollars. That is a
Speaker 1: difference of twenty five, seven hundred and eighty eight dollars
Speaker 1: a year.
Speaker 2: BECK.
Speaker 3: That is so wild.
Speaker 1: Do you know what twenty five seven hundred and eighty
Speaker 1: eight dollars per year? Could be mortgage repayments? Yes, it
Speaker 1: could be an entire house. It could be financial freedom,
Speaker 1: it could be literally so many things. So before we
Speaker 1: get even further into it, actually wanted to find what
Speaker 1: the gender pay gap is because there are obviously so
Speaker 1: many other gaps that exist, but the national gender pay
Speaker 1: gap that we are referencing here today measures the difference
Speaker 1: between the average weekly full time base salary earnings of
Speaker 1: men and women, expressed as a percentage of men's earnings BECK.
Speaker 1: It is a measure of women's overall position in the
Speaker 1: paid workforce, and we're not comparing roles. So when we're
Speaker 1: not going, oh, a male doctor gets paid this and
Speaker 1: a female doctor gets paid this, we're actually just talking
Speaker 1: about the overarching gap between on average, what women earn
Speaker 1: versus what men earn. And obviously that takes into consideration
Speaker 1: a whole host of other things like decisions to stay
Speaker 1: out of the workforce, and all of that makes sense.
Speaker 1: But I don't want people thinking, oh, they're comparing like
Speaker 1: for like, it's illegal to pay men and women different
Speaker 1: amounts for the same job. Like, we know that exists,
Speaker 1: and we also know that while it is illegal to
Speaker 1: pay people different amounts for the same job, it still happens. Yes,
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to go on and on about it,
Speaker 1: but I do think it's really important to define that.
Speaker 1: We're just talking about the average difference between men and
Speaker 1: women and the factors that come into that.
Speaker 3: So that's where we're at. Okay, So how is it
Speaker 3: the people often regard the gender pay gap as a myth? Still, yeah,
Speaker 3: makes myths.
Speaker 1: Or frustrate, But in Australia's industrial relation system, as I
Speaker 1: said before, it's actually illegal to pay a woman less
Speaker 1: than a man when they're employed to do identical jobs.
Speaker 1: That doesn't stop it from happening, certainly not, but the
Speaker 1: numbers don't lie. And today we are going to be
Speaker 1: spotlighting the myriad of reasons that there is a twenty
Speaker 1: two point eight percent gap and why it exists.
Speaker 3: Yes, please, So.
Speaker 1: The reason, well, women obviously earn the less because they
Speaker 1: are obviously more likely and I say obviously because I
Speaker 1: think it's stereotypical. I find it interesting that it's, you know,
Speaker 1: obviously women are going to take that on. I think
Speaker 1: that's very you know Australian dream or American dream that
Speaker 1: that happens. But women are earning less because they are
Speaker 1: more likely to juggle paid work alongside family and caring responsibilities.
Speaker 1: Because women just take up the caring responsibility they have to.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it doesn't make it right. It doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: we support that, but it just happens. So forty two
Speaker 1: percent of women work full time while sixty seven percent
Speaker 1: of men work full time, and this reflects the reality
Speaker 1: that many women are juggling paid work alongside many other
Speaker 1: responsibilities that aren't once that you can earn money for.
Speaker 3: Beck coming off the back of that this is very
Speaker 3: obvious that it's a little bit stereotypes.
Speaker 1: It's a little bit stereotypical. Not that women stay at
Speaker 1: home exactly to get work and they bring home the
Speaker 1: baking kind of vibes exactly gives me the ick.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a little bit. Three twenty twenty three. I know that,
Speaker 3: you know, there are women out there who just do
Speaker 3: not want children, who will never have children, who you know,
Speaker 3: whatever else, And there are women out there who are
Speaker 3: in not heteronormative relationships. So there are so many different
Speaker 3: people that this does not relate to. But it is
Speaker 3: worth mentioning that this is you know, this is not
Speaker 3: one brush for all.
Speaker 1: So absolutely not. We just this is us breaking down
Speaker 1: data unfortunately, not us breaking down stereotyped. Yes, I feel
Speaker 1: like we have to caveat this episode so many times
Speaker 1: because I'm like, this isn't including all of my friends,
Speaker 1: This isn't including the people that I love, This isn't
Speaker 1: including this. But I think it's a really good place
Speaker 1: to start because, as I said before, our gender pay
Speaker 1: gap for what we can measure is twenty two point
Speaker 1: eight percent. I guarantee it's more for our indigenous friends.
Speaker 1: I guarantee it's more for our LGBTQIA plus community. I
Speaker 1: just there's so much more to talk about there. And
Speaker 1: I think that you know, we're being a bit stereotypical
Speaker 1: because we're not stereotypical. And I find it relatively novel
Speaker 1: that you know, men have to work and were and
Speaker 1: have to stay home, like that's clearly not going to
Speaker 1: happen in my relationship, though I think that we should
Speaker 1: be caveating it. But also, we're not here to break
Speaker 1: down stereotypes in this episode. We're just here to talk
Speaker 1: about the data and what we can do to facilitate change.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, and hopefully there will be a day where
Speaker 3: we are all part of this data one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: But I did want to ask the drinking COVID offered
Speaker 3: a bit of an opportunity for workplaces to be more
Speaker 3: flexible with their workers.
Speaker 1: I don't think it offered. I think it forced people
Speaker 1: to go into more flexible working arrangements and people now
Speaker 1: expect it, which I kind of love as somebody, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love having flexible work arrangements, but I also know
Speaker 1: of a few businesses who were really miffed that that
Speaker 1: was the case, and now their employees are expecting more
Speaker 1: flexibility because they proved that they were just as productive
Speaker 1: outside of the workplace. But the WEGA also did an
Speaker 1: employer's census and found that flexibility has become increasingly important
Speaker 1: to employees, with most employers sitting at eighty two percent
Speaker 1: now installing a formal policy on flexibility and remote working
Speaker 1: and flexible work hours were the most popular options, with
Speaker 1: employers less likely to offer a compressed work week or
Speaker 1: job sharing for example. Right, I find it so interesting
Speaker 1: and when it comes to gender equality in the workplace,
Speaker 1: wega's twenty twenty two employer census contained a voluntary question
Speaker 1: because I didn't make everybody answer it. They asked businesses
Speaker 1: whether they set targets to improve workplace gender equality, and
Speaker 1: a little more than half so fifty three percent beck
Speaker 1: of employers filing reports said they had set targets. The
Speaker 1: most popular goal was to increase the number of women
Speaker 1: in leadership. Employers were less likely to set targets to
Speaker 1: increase the number of men taking parental leave or to
Speaker 1: increase the number of men in female dominated roles, and
Speaker 1: just over half so fifty four percent of employers conducted
Speaker 1: a gender pay gap analysis. This year, and of those,
Speaker 1: forty percent took no action as a result.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: I also want to point out there, Beck, if you
Speaker 1: were an employer and you were doing this survey and
Speaker 1: they asked you whether or not you were setting targets
Speaker 1: to improve workplace gender equality and you actually weren't doing it,
Speaker 1: You're like, weren't doing anything to set targets or improve
Speaker 1: workplace gender equality? Would you tick the box and say no,
Speaker 1: I'm doing nothing? Would just skip that question because it
Speaker 1: was voluntary. I would say no, but you would say
Speaker 1: it because you're an open, honest person. I think everybody
Speaker 1: else would just skip the question because it was voluntary.
Speaker 1: So I think we need to probably go all right, Well,
Speaker 1: a little more than half, like fifty three percent of
Speaker 1: employers said that they had set targets, but I actually
Speaker 1: think that might be a little bit lower because some
Speaker 1: people have actually skipped the question because it was voluntary.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense because completely makes sense. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: own up to not doing it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 1: I just feel like other people wouldn't either.
Speaker 3: I would say yes because I actually want things to change,
Speaker 3: but a lot of people would say no or just.
Speaker 1: Give it because you're a hot girl. That's exactly why. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you, you're welcome. This is a little bit of
Speaker 1: a controversial question. Okay, do you think women earn less
Speaker 1: because they work in industries payless?
Speaker 3: Aha?
Speaker 1: This kills me, The question kills me. I had a
Speaker 1: full blown argument with somebody on TikTok because I can't
Speaker 1: hold myself back, and a lot of my friends are like, Victoria,
Speaker 1: just don't reply to the comments. I'm like, I can't.
Speaker 1: I don't have that level of self control. I posted
Speaker 1: something about the pay gap and then somebody was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but women earnless because they choose industries the polless. But
Speaker 1: unfortunately that's not it. But yes, women represent strongly in
Speaker 1: lower paid industries like education, healthcare, and social assistance, while
Speaker 1: men are concentrated in higher paying industries such as construction
Speaker 1: and mining and utilities. And some people argue that if
Speaker 1: women wanted to earn more, they should move out of
Speaker 1: traditional female led fields and switch into jobs like engineering
Speaker 1: or mining or building or the trades and stuff like
Speaker 1: that instead. But we really need to reassess how much
Speaker 1: value the jobs that are essentially fostering a healthy and
Speaker 1: educated society are adding. And I think that we learned
Speaker 1: a lot about that during COVID, where Hoo debriw rely
Speaker 1: on the most. During OH we relied on education, healthcare,
Speaker 1: and social assistance the most. Tell me where the lack
Speaker 1: of value is there because we needed those people, they
Speaker 1: were absolutely essential while a lot of industries were locked
Speaker 1: down and at home. I think it was a really
Speaker 1: good reframe for us to understand where the value in
Speaker 1: our society exists and where we should actually be funneling
Speaker 1: a lot more money. But the problem is that the
Speaker 1: true value of many of these, like human services jobs,
Speaker 1: are dispersed widely throughout society, and the benefits are not
Speaker 1: immediately visible and not fully reflective of their unfortunately low wages.
Speaker 3: A men to that fee is really so angry.
Speaker 1: This whole episode is making me mad.
Speaker 3: I know, it's really such a shame. And it's also
Speaker 3: kind of like, well, if women wanted to get paid more,
Speaker 3: get into jobs that don't really have availability for women,
Speaker 3: mining construction, no one, you know.
Speaker 1: It's just a lot not as accessible. I think the
Speaker 1: other thing is like, yeah, we are completely confident and
Speaker 1: capable and we can do that. But yes, having spoken
Speaker 1: to a couple of girlfriends who used to work in
Speaker 1: construction who now don't work in construction. They're like, I
Speaker 1: left because it was boys club. I didn't like being there.
Speaker 1: I didn't feel advocated for, I didn't feel safe, I
Speaker 1: didn't enjoy working there because the culture is so cooked. Yes,
Speaker 1: so I think it's there's a lot that plays into
Speaker 1: the extent about accessibility for women.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, and I guess it's kind of worth mentioning.
Speaker 3: Do you feel like the levels of physical danger at
Speaker 3: work maybe contribute to the higher pay in male dominated industries?
Speaker 1: Of course they do. The higher rates of workplace fatalities
Speaker 1: are reported in more male dominated industries like transport, warehousing, agriculture, construction,
Speaker 1: and this is largely reflective of the physical element of
Speaker 1: those jobs, right, And that just makes sense. The science
Speaker 1: is checking out. Fatalities are an absolute and undeniable tragedy,
Speaker 1: and no one would ever disagree with this. But I
Speaker 1: must say too that mental stress is certainly something that
Speaker 1: should be way more of our as well. Like look
Speaker 1: at the top ten jobs with the highest number of
Speaker 1: claims for workplace related mental stress, and we find that
Speaker 1: female dominated professions like health and welfare, support workers and
Speaker 1: nurses and personal cares and school teachers alongside paramedics and
Speaker 1: defense personnel and police officers and bus and rail drivers
Speaker 1: are really really high. So when it comes to injury,
Speaker 1: physical and mental to me should be lumped into the
Speaker 1: same basket. And stress in these occupations honestly often comes
Speaker 1: from exposure to violence or a traumatic event to salt, harassment, bullying,
Speaker 1: and really should be valued in remuneration as well.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent V. I guess we'll absorble of that.
Speaker 3: We'll go to a quick break and be back in.
Speaker 1: I'm going to d stress. See you on the flip sign. OKAV.
Speaker 3: We are back and we're talking about the gender pay gap.
Speaker 3: Ill now, I want to know how about women in
Speaker 3: senior roles in companies and how this affects earning?
Speaker 1: Oh, good question. Wega's twenty twenty two Employer report shows
Speaker 1: that women are still underrepresented in leadership and men are
Speaker 1: one point five times more likely to hold managerial positions.
Speaker 1: Here are some status that I have collected from that report.
Speaker 1: Twenty two point three percent of CEOs of women. I
Speaker 1: should have said only twenty two points of a women,
Speaker 1: but only twenty percent of boards have gender ellents wow,
Speaker 1: And twenty two point three percent of boards are constructed
Speaker 1: entirely of men. Wow, no women at all.
Speaker 3: Those are so outrageous.
Speaker 1: It's so gross, isn't it It is?
Speaker 3: This isn't like a men verus women to be But
Speaker 3: I must say every single female boss I've had has
Speaker 3: been absolutely delightful. Men too, But I just want to
Speaker 3: you know, I want to say I can't share that.
Speaker 1: So I have had a few bosses that absolutely take
Speaker 1: the mickey, But I really don't think it comes down
Speaker 1: to their gender from my perspective. But statistics tell us
Speaker 1: that gender diverse workplaces are more productive and better places
Speaker 1: to be and more profitable and six million other better things.
Speaker 1: And I just I find it super interesting to dive
Speaker 1: into the stats.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely checks out. Why is it that men tend
Speaker 3: to climb the career ladder more rapidly than women.
Speaker 1: There's so many reasons. Obviously, the most stereotypical one that
Speaker 1: comes up is taking time out of the workforce to
Speaker 1: raise children. And I feel like that's one of the
Speaker 1: most obvious factors that interrupts women's career progression, and remaining
Speaker 1: out of the workforce after having children is not always
Speaker 1: by choice. If a partner can't share the caring load
Speaker 1: or the childcare costs preclude the financial gains of returning
Speaker 1: full time. And as somebody who now has a lot
Speaker 1: of friends who have babies, I find it so genuinely
Speaker 1: interesting because you know, you hear stats like, oh, my gosh, Beck,
Speaker 1: did you know that you know childcare can be like
Speaker 1: one hundred and ten, one hundred and thirty dollars per
Speaker 1: child per day, And you go, all right, well, if
Speaker 1: that's the statistic, and obviously there are definitely rebates available,
Speaker 1: but at one hundred and ten dollars a day day
Speaker 1: if they're doing that every day of the week, because
Speaker 1: if you're a full time worker, that's still five hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars. What we need to remember is that's
Speaker 1: post tax. You've got two kids, that's now eleven hundred
Speaker 1: dollars a week that you're paying in childcare. And let's
Speaker 1: say that, you know, forty eight weeks of the year,
Speaker 1: because we all get four weeks off, right, If we
Speaker 1: times that by forty eight, that's fifty two, eight hundred
Speaker 1: dollars if you have two children in full time childcare. Wow,
Speaker 1: And a lot of women aren't earning that. And the
Speaker 1: fact that that is post tax as well, if you're
Speaker 1: on a seventy thousand dollars income, it's not worth going
Speaker 1: back to work. If you're eighty thousand dollars, not worth
Speaker 1: going back to work. And those are good incomes. Beck
Speaker 1: And this frustrates me because in Australia, two kids is
Speaker 1: pretty standard, right, So to have two kids in childcare
Speaker 1: for that amount of money, right, I've done some stats.
Speaker 1: We've gone back to the WEGA data I mentioned earlier
Speaker 1: that said that women receive an average remuneration of ninety thousand,
Speaker 1: three hundred and nine dollars. I've assumed not including superannuations.
Speaker 1: So we're pretending that this is the best possible scenario.
Speaker 1: We're pretending that you've got ninety thousand dollars plus super
Speaker 1: each year. Right, So that's good. That means that you
Speaker 1: have an annual take home pay of sixty eight thousand,
Speaker 1: six hundred and eighty five dollars after tax, because you'd
Speaker 1: be paying about twenty one thousand, six hundred ish dollars
Speaker 1: in tax. And do you know what that means? That
Speaker 1: means if your two children are in full time childcare
Speaker 1: and you're going to work every single week, you're only
Speaker 1: earning fifteen thousand, eight hundred and eighty five dollars a year.
Speaker 3: That is so outrageous.
Speaker 1: And you divide that by twelve months of the year,
Speaker 1: you're earning about thirteen hundred dollars a month for being
Speaker 1: away from your kids for the entire time. And I
Speaker 1: think that makes a lot of sense when people say
Speaker 1: it's not worth returning to work, because we're not talking
Speaker 1: about returning to work part time. We're not talking about
Speaker 1: returning to a job that you get paid fifty grand.
Speaker 1: We are talking about that average salary of women of
Speaker 1: ninety three hundred and nine dollars. You are literally, if
Speaker 1: you put both of your kids in care and go
Speaker 1: to work, you're just fifteen thousand, eight hundred and eighty
Speaker 1: five dollars better. Gosh, imagine if you're a single mom
Speaker 1: and you don't have anyone to walk to your children
Speaker 1: during the week, that's fifteen thousand dollars. Like, if you
Speaker 1: are a single mom, how much are you going to
Speaker 1: pay on rent? How much you're going to pay on gross?
Speaker 1: That's not enough to survive, enough to spy. And then
Speaker 1: if you've got a duel income household and you're in
Speaker 1: that fortunate position. Then that's fantastic, But what about the
Speaker 1: additional stress of being a full time parent or having
Speaker 1: two full time parents, managing daycare, managing not seeing your
Speaker 1: kids that often because you have to drop them off
Speaker 1: at six point thirty in the morning, because you need
Speaker 1: to drive an hour and a half to get to
Speaker 1: work because you live a bit further out. Like to me,
Speaker 1: it is absolutely cooked. And you can tell I could
Speaker 1: go on and on and on about this, but yes,
Speaker 1: taking time out of the workforce to raise children is
Speaker 1: a women's issue, but often it's not a choice. And
Speaker 1: that's where I was getting at. I just feel like
Speaker 1: so many times like women take on the caring load
Speaker 1: or the childcare load because the costs really do keep
Speaker 1: you out of full time gainful employment. And it's not
Speaker 1: because you don't want to be there, like so many times,
Speaker 1: and it's a beautiful choice to make. If you choose
Speaker 1: to be a stay at home mump, you do you.
Speaker 1: I'm so proud that you get that opportunity to choose.
Speaker 1: But if you are someone like take my personality, I
Speaker 1: can't imagine not working when I have kids. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: love the hell out of them. But I also know
Speaker 1: that to be the best version of me. I also
Speaker 1: need to have that outlet. It's just who I am,
Speaker 1: so that would make it not financially viable. So it's
Speaker 1: not a choice that we all make. It's sometimes a
Speaker 1: choice we have to make. But even women without children, right,
Speaker 1: they don't necessarily reach senior ranks as quickly as men either,
Speaker 1: which is really gross. And even when women reach management levels,
Speaker 1: they still learn less than their male counterparts, which again
Speaker 1: gives me the ik.
Speaker 3: That gives me the ick too. That's wild.
Speaker 1: It's so so rude because underlyingly, men are seen as
Speaker 1: more confident, capable human beings.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, it's twenty twenty three in the most
Speaker 3: stereotypical terms. What about this idea that there's a difference
Speaker 3: in ambition and confidence between men and women.
Speaker 1: Where do you get that idea? Because there's literally no
Speaker 1: evidence that women lack in terms of career ambition Like
Speaker 1: that doesn't exist. That is something that people just say,
Speaker 1: maybe to make themselves feel better. I don't know who's
Speaker 1: feeling better about that quote fact that they throw around. Beck.
Speaker 1: A recent study of Australian school students found no major
Speaker 1: differences between males and females in factors motivating their career aspirations,
Speaker 1: and women are now surpassing men in terms of post
Speaker 1: school education achievements. And when it comes to confidence, it
Speaker 1: is true that men generally report strong confidence in their
Speaker 1: capabilities compared to women, and higher levels of confidence are
Speaker 1: linked to higher pay, which I'm not surprised about, but
Speaker 1: it does give me the ick. And that's why we
Speaker 1: always talk about and we've talked about it on this
Speaker 1: show before. I've told you a million times that men
Speaker 1: are likely to just go for a job if they
Speaker 1: meet like sixty percent of the criteria and they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I give it a crack, And women are like, no,
Speaker 1: if I don't meet one hundred percent of the criteria,
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly apply. And it just get out there, put
Speaker 1: your foot out there and say I'll give it a crack.
Speaker 1: No worries. But there is no economic evidence whatsoever beck
Speaker 1: that higher confidence actually makes a worker a more productive
Speaker 1: and valuable member to that company. It's actually quite the opposite, really,
Speaker 1: because an over confident person can be a little bit
Speaker 1: more of a liability for a company through reckless decision
Speaker 1: making and maybe not listening as much as they could
Speaker 1: because they think that they're so smart and often too
Speaker 1: there's greater risk that women who show assertiveness and ambition
Speaker 1: will be perceived disfavorably. I guess think of how women
Speaker 1: managers are often stereotypically viewed as too pushy and too bossy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes me sad.
Speaker 1: I have grown up beings like being told I was
Speaker 1: bossy or pushy, too forward, or to this or to that,
Speaker 1: and you're not to anything, thank you, honey. But it's
Speaker 1: really disheartening because I know, just on reflection, that little
Speaker 1: boys who had the same behavioral traits as me would
Speaker 1: be you know, oh, he's going to be a good
Speaker 1: leader one today. And it's just it's so ick because
Speaker 1: I never got those conversations. I just got the conversation
Speaker 1: of always being told I was too much of something,
Speaker 1: and it's like too much of what? Because that, to
Speaker 1: me is ridiculous.
Speaker 3: That is ridiculous. If you were you know, we were
Speaker 3: speculating here, but if you were a little boy, I
Speaker 3: can imagine that everyone would have been like, what a
Speaker 3: confident and bright young man.
Speaker 1: I can't believe he goes and does this. It's insane
Speaker 1: how much gender stereotypes play into it. Saying that that
Speaker 1: was never my parents. They never told me that that
Speaker 1: was my school experience, which is why I'm here now. Amazing,
Speaker 1: thanks mum. So I probably know the answer to this,
Speaker 1: but how about just asking for a Oh what a
Speaker 1: good idea, Beck, Just march into your boss's office and
Speaker 1: be like, do you know what it's talking to my mate?
Speaker 1: She earns way more than me. Could I have a
Speaker 1: pay rius? It's gonna work? Okay, no, it's actually not.
Speaker 1: But it's now been shown that Australian women ask for
Speaker 1: a pay rise just as often as men, which we love.
Speaker 1: That's amazing, But you know what's really trashy. Oh no,
Speaker 1: they're less likely to get it. Oh so gross. Adding
Speaker 1: bonuses and allowances, which are often negotiable components, the gender
Speaker 1: gap in total remuneration then widens further because don't forget
Speaker 1: those statistics that we were throwing around before of the
Speaker 1: ninety three hundred and nine and the sixteen thousand and
Speaker 1: eighty seven dollars are just base salary. They're not the
Speaker 1: car and the negotiated kind of benefits that come with that. Often,
Speaker 1: in addition to all of that, it's the subtle influence
Speaker 1: of unconscious bias that makes businesses lean towards men for
Speaker 1: senior roles and then reward them with higher pay.
Speaker 3: Ah. How good, Just so good.
Speaker 1: This has just been a really lifting episode. I feel
Speaker 1: really empowered as a woman in a leadership space. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's also really important to talk about, right, Like,
Speaker 1: if we're not talking about this and we're not getting
Speaker 1: upset about this, nothing is going to change. And after
Speaker 1: going through COVID, so pre COVID, we did an episode
Speaker 1: and we were talking about, you know something similar. I
Speaker 1: think we did a whole episode on the gender pay
Speaker 1: gap because these statistics come out every single year like clockwork,
Speaker 1: and we need to keep talking about them. But pre COVID,
Speaker 1: the amount of time it would take to reach gender
Speaker 1: pay equality was going to be one hundred and fifty years.
Speaker 1: And at the time I was horrified because I was like,
Speaker 1: that's one hundred and fifty years. It's not even going
Speaker 1: to happen in my lifetime, let alone my future children's lifetime.
Speaker 1: Like this is cooked. And then COVID happened and pegged
Speaker 1: us back, and it's now two hundred years back. Oh no,
Speaker 1: it's literally the worst I thought it was going to be.
Speaker 1: Last year It's even worse because think about what happened
Speaker 1: during COVID childcare centers. Yes, I see schools closed, and
Speaker 1: the responsive ability of that actually ended up falling on
Speaker 1: usually the women in the relationships, because men were like, no, sorry,
Speaker 1: got to do my job, and yeah, oh, don't start me.
Speaker 1: Do not start me on that concept of babysitting your
Speaker 1: own children. You do not babysit your own children. So
Speaker 1: you are actually parenting because you're a parent, you're their father.
Speaker 1: Their father doesn't babysit. Their father actually parents when the
Speaker 1: other parent is unable to be there. Oh, don't start me.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 3: I actually could go on and on and on about that.
Speaker 1: I hate it. I remember I used to work with
Speaker 1: someone who I would go, oh, what are you up
Speaker 1: to this weekend? Xyzed and they'd be like, I've got
Speaker 1: a babysit the kids, and I would bite his head off.
Speaker 1: In your book, boys gresive on this, I'd be like,
Speaker 1: because they're your kids, yes, you made them, You made them,
Speaker 1: that is your responsibility. Babysitting implies that you shouldn't really
Speaker 1: have to do it, or you should be remunerated for it. Yes, no,
Speaker 1: you hire a babysitter. When you and your partner go out. Oh,
Speaker 1: don't even don't even wait until I have kids. Everyone's
Speaker 1: in trouble.
Speaker 3: Oh I'm very excited for that. So what can employers
Speaker 3: do to make a workplace for gender equal A heap
Speaker 3: of things.
Speaker 1: So organizations need to be, from my perspective, way more
Speaker 1: transparent about current rates of pay, salary bands, and what
Speaker 1: items can actually be negotiated for. So, for example, you
Speaker 1: could negotiate more paid parentally, flexible hours, remote working, you
Speaker 1: could actually set different targets. I think it's worth mentioning
Speaker 1: here as well that pay secrecy last year became illegal
Speaker 1: in Australia and that makes my heart sing love. So
Speaker 1: if you're looking at your contract and anywhere in your
Speaker 1: contract it says you're not allowed to discuss that with
Speaker 1: your coworkers, that clause is now void. That doesn't exist,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter if your employer told you you
Speaker 1: can't do it. It is illegal for them to tell
Speaker 1: you you can't do that, and you can talk about
Speaker 1: your salary as much as you like. In saying that,
Speaker 1: I would from my perspective proceed with caution because obviously,
Speaker 1: as much as it is illegal, you don't really want
Speaker 1: to get your business off side and then compromise your
Speaker 1: role unless you are really passionate about it or want
Speaker 1: to do it. So I'm not saying go and just
Speaker 1: start talking about it, like obviously we need to slowly
Speaker 1: go into that conversation and maybe work towards having those
Speaker 1: clauses removed from the contracts and then maybe having more open,
Speaker 1: honest conversations in general. But yeah, I just don't want
Speaker 1: anyone in our community to be like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: Victoria said I could do it now because it's not illegal,
Speaker 1: and then you know, my boss fired me for something
Speaker 1: else and I think it was do you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Like, I just don't want anyone to get
Speaker 1: in trouble with it, because as much as it is illegal,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean it's not happening. Yeah, another thing that
Speaker 1: companies can do is do a pay gap analysis and
Speaker 1: then take action on the findings. I feel like there
Speaker 1: are a lot of businesses that bury their heads in
Speaker 1: the sand about this because they know that they're not
Speaker 1: doing the right things. And I've heard it a million times,
Speaker 1: Like in the position that I have in the She's
Speaker 1: on the Money community, I'm so grateful for the conversations
Speaker 1: I have, but I'm often so heartbroken when someone comes
Speaker 1: in and they're like, oh, I do this job, Victoria,
Speaker 1: and I don't know how to approach it. But I
Speaker 1: was talking to my a male colleague the other day
Speaker 1: and they're on thirty thousand dollars more than me and
Speaker 1: I trained them, and I'm like, Oh, that is honestly awful,
Speaker 1: and I cannot believe that management lets that happen. Like,
Speaker 1: if you're somebody that lets that stuff happen, the buck
Speaker 1: stops with you, and it's actually not on that other
Speaker 1: person to advocate more for their own salary. It's actually
Speaker 1: on you to make sure that equality exists in your workplace.
Speaker 1: And then another thing I think businesses should be taking
Speaker 1: into consideration is paid family and domestic violence leave. So
Speaker 1: in recent developments, employees of non small business employers can
Speaker 1: now access ten days of paid family and domestic violence
Speaker 1: leave in a twelve month period, and employees of small
Speaker 1: businesses can access that leave from the first of August
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. It's amazing, which is really awesome, Like
Speaker 1: that is a really good step in the right direction,
Speaker 1: And what can we do as individuals? We can do
Speaker 1: more than you think we can do. And from my perspective,
Speaker 1: the most important step we can take is to recognize
Speaker 1: that the gender pay gap does actually exist in the
Speaker 1: first place. And then, as we were saying before, and
Speaker 1: I got a little bit heated before about the babysitting comment,
Speaker 1: but I think we need to look at language comments
Speaker 1: like my husband's babysitting how amazing? Like no, no, we
Speaker 1: don't celebrate minimum chips, do we like? No?
Speaker 3: No, no no. And it's also important, I guess, to
Speaker 3: think about how we see women as really good mothers
Speaker 3: spending and devoting and all this time to their children
Speaker 3: and staying home instead of working, et cetera. But when
Speaker 3: we see men do that generally we kind of say, oh,
Speaker 3: what an amazing so wow, but it really should just
Speaker 3: be the norm. And that way, you know, men can
Speaker 3: stay home as a stay at home father, and those
Speaker 3: kind of things can kind of open up a little
Speaker 3: bit more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. I was actually talking about this
Speaker 1: with a friend the other day, and we were talking
Speaker 1: about the division of labor between the parent who is
Speaker 1: the breadwinner and the parent who stays at home to
Speaker 1: do the childcare, and the interesting fact that often it
Speaker 1: falls on the parent that is the childcare to actually
Speaker 1: do things twenty four to seven. So one parent goes
Speaker 1: and does a forty hour work week, and the parent
Speaker 1: does the forty hour work week, but then also is
Speaker 1: in charge of appointments and making lunches and doing absolutely
Speaker 1: everything and making sure that the laundry is done and
Speaker 1: making sure that dinner's on the table when their partner
Speaker 1: gets home and all of this other stuff above and beyond.
Speaker 1: So the paid parent that brings home money is actually
Speaker 1: in a position where they only work forty hours a week,
Speaker 1: and then they think that the time outside of that
Speaker 1: forty hours is their time because their partner stays home
Speaker 1: to look after childcare. But the fact is when you
Speaker 1: come home from work, the childcare actually becomes a shared
Speaker 1: task and those appointments need to be made by one
Speaker 1: of the parents. In the laundry is actually both parents responsibility,
Speaker 1: and dinner could be both parents responsibility. And I think
Speaker 1: this division of labor of assuming that if women are
Speaker 1: in the home, in the home twenty four to seven,
Speaker 1: and they need to always be switched on, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: Like if you're going to work for forty hours a week,
Speaker 1: there is a childcare job that is happening in your
Speaker 1: home for forty hours a week. The rest of it
Speaker 1: is shared. And I think that it's really interesting because
Speaker 1: that's not how you know. I didn't grow up with
Speaker 1: a stay at home parent, but that's stereotypically how you
Speaker 1: assume the stay home parent works. Right, they're just twenty
Speaker 1: four to seven mum taxi right, absolutely disgusting. That is
Speaker 1: not the case.
Speaker 3: They're not meant to switch off for giving them entire.
Speaker 1: Live Absolutely no. So, as we were saying before, we
Speaker 1: don't celebrate minimum chips. But also the other thing we
Speaker 1: can do is keep an eye out. We're obviously very
Speaker 1: very early, but Equal Payday is the twenty ninth of August.
Speaker 1: Talk about it with your friends, your family, your coworkers.
Speaker 1: Get into your HR's diary early to make sure that
Speaker 1: we're talking about it on that day. Because I feel
Speaker 1: like Equal Payday sneaks up on us each and every
Speaker 1: single year, and so many people say, I wish I'd
Speaker 1: known about this sooner so I could have done something
Speaker 1: with work. Now's the time to peg it in HR's
Speaker 1: diary so they don't forget.
Speaker 3: I love that I didn't actually know that existed.
Speaker 1: But equal payday. Yes, celebrate. We're going to get it
Speaker 1: one day, hopefully not in two hundred years, hopefully much
Speaker 1: sooner than that.
Speaker 3: Hopefully we'll see it.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, Becka, I think that's all we have time for today.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to go put that in my calendar.
Speaker 3: Let's go talk to our friends and family about this
Speaker 3: bloody end of paygap.
Speaker 1: Don't even I end up in arguments, so I'm not
Speaker 1: going to do that. But you're more than welcome to
Speaker 1: am I God cry?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay? Well, as always, if you're not crying, we would
Speaker 1: love it if you joined our Facebook group, where our
Speaker 1: community shares money tips and tricks every single day, free
Speaker 1: of judgment. So She's on the Money on Facebook and
Speaker 1: join us. If Facebook's not your thing, you can also
Speaker 1: find us on Instagram where it She's on the Money
Speaker 1: aus We're on TikTok as well as She's on the Money.
Speaker 1: And don't forget to rate, review, or subscribe on whatever
Speaker 1: platform you are using. We will see you guys on Friday.
Speaker 3: Bye.
Speaker 1: The advice shared on She's on the Money is general
Speaker 1: in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's
Speaker 1: on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should
Speaker 1: not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision.
Speaker 1: If you do choose to buy a financial product, read
Speaker 1: the PDS TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards
Speaker 1: your needs. Victoria Divine and She's on the Line Mony
Speaker 1: are authorized representatives of money, sheirper P T y L
Speaker 1: t D A B N three two one six four
Speaker 1: nine two seven seven zero eight a F s L
Speaker 1: four five one two eight nine