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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers mew. Last week on The Happy Family's podcast,

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Speaker 2: I was talking with Doctor Listen to More, the author

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Speaker 2: of The Emotional Lives of Teenagers. Part one of that

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Speaker 2: interview is last Wednesday. I recommend that you head back

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Speaker 2: and have a listen to it if you haven't already.

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Speaker 2: It's just a delightful and really, what's the word, insightful

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Speaker 2: conversation about our kids and their emotions. In fact, you

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Speaker 2: don't even need to be a parent of a teen

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Speaker 2: to get a lot out of it. If you missed

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Speaker 2: part one, you don't have to go back and listen

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Speaker 2: to it before you listen to today's part two, although

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Speaker 2: I would recommend it. In part two of our conversation,

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Speaker 2: Lisa and I have a chat about the emotion of

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Speaker 2: shame and what it does to our teens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, shame's really dangerous. I will tell you clinically, whenever

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Speaker 1: I've been working with someone working with something and like

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Speaker 1: it just like it won't move, like you know, we're

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Speaker 1: working on an issue or a challenge, would have always

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Speaker 1: discovered at the bottom of it with shame and shame's

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Speaker 1: like this tar that just drags people down. It's really

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Speaker 1: I'm not being very clear, but like just in terms

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Speaker 1: of what it feels like clinically, So shame different from guilt, right,

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Speaker 1: I think it's helpful to make that distinction. Guilt is

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Speaker 1: criticism about what somebody did right, and teenagers do dumb

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Speaker 1: things right. So you can be like you said you

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Speaker 1: were going to walk a dog, you did not walk

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Speaker 1: a dog. Like a little healthy guilt about that would

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Speaker 1: be a great thing, right, I mean that that is

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Speaker 1: that's valuable. That is how emotions helpless grow. Shame is

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Speaker 1: criticism about who someone is. And I think that the

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Speaker 1: way a parent could get there is to say, what's

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Speaker 1: wrong with you that you didn't walk the dog? You know?

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Speaker 1: So it's the same issue the dog didn't get walked,

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Speaker 1: but two very different takes on it, and it's that

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with you or you're somehow you know, there's

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Speaker 1: some fault in you that is intrinsic and global and

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Speaker 1: lasting and that explains whatever you did that I just

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Speaker 1: didn't like. So it's dangerous because what it does is

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Speaker 1: it puts kids in a horrendous position. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: horrible to be given the impression that one is somehow broken,

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Speaker 1: there's something fundamentally wrong, and so what happens psychologically for

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Speaker 1: anyone put in that position, but certainly a child or

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Speaker 1: a teenager, is they're like, oh my gosh, I'm broken.

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Speaker 1: This is a horrible feeling. The only way out of

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Speaker 1: it is to assume that the person who's saying it

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Speaker 1: is wrong that they're broken. I'm not broken. They're broken,

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Speaker 1: and that's why they would say such a thing to me. Now,

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Speaker 1: the person they're thinking about is their parent. Nobody wants

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Speaker 1: to feel like in the whole wide world of the parents,

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Speaker 1: I've got, you know, which is a very like I

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Speaker 1: got these one or two and like this is the

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Speaker 1: hand I'm delt. I got a broken wood, right.

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Speaker 2: Like.

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Speaker 1: That's not a good feeling either. So it just backs

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Speaker 1: a kid into a horrible corner. Either I'm broken or

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Speaker 1: you're broken. That's just not where you want to be.

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Speaker 1: So it's always better, like you can get mad at

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Speaker 1: a kid and kids do dumb things. That's like, I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna say kids don't make mistakes, but if one

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Speaker 1: can approach it from the side of dude, it is

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Speaker 1: not like you to not take the dog out, what

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Speaker 1: is up right? To really couch those those criticisms, they

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Speaker 1: can be criticisms in a generous assessment. This is a

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Speaker 1: good kid who did a dumb thing, and to get

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Speaker 1: that good kid thinking about why they did the dumb thing,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to trying to shame them into submission.

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Speaker 2: I love the way you describe that. My senses I'm

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Speaker 2: listening to you talk is that. I mean, we can

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Speaker 2: we can inadvertently do this right. We can say something

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Speaker 2: that feels completely innocuous and our child can internalize it

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Speaker 2: and interpret it as something that is a slight on

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Speaker 2: their character. It's a market deficiency against who they are.

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Speaker 2: And even as I'm thinking through that, it strikes me

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Speaker 2: that an adolescent's sense of self is fragile. They rely

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Speaker 2: so much on our I want to say, judgments, but

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Speaker 2: we're trying not to be judging, right, But they do

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Speaker 2: rely on our perceptions of them to form their sense

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Speaker 2: of self.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, the I mean they're very attentive feedback from

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Speaker 1: the world. They're very anxious about themselves, and they also

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Speaker 1: are acutely aware of their imperfections, right, I mean, they're

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Speaker 1: thinking a lot about what they're good at what they're

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Speaker 1: not good at and what they wish we're different, or

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Speaker 1: mistakes they've made. And so I think, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: so much work to be done as parents to both

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Speaker 1: be clear right about it and be like, all right,

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Speaker 1: so you must up. Okay, you can make it right,

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Speaker 1: you know tonight, minimize or deny. You know that we

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Speaker 1: all have aspects of our personality that we don't love,

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Speaker 1: or we all do things that we regret, but to

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Speaker 1: not turn it into a handwringing irredeemable sign about who

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Speaker 1: this kid is or who they're gonna be. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that's the part that makes me So we're

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Speaker 1: like tender with parents or teenagers because I think like

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Speaker 1: teenagers do all sorts of things, and I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of times friends are like, oh my gosh, like

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Speaker 1: are we raising a sociopath? Right, because like they said

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Speaker 1: they weren't going to drink at the party, and then

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Speaker 1: they drink at the party, Like why did they lie

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Speaker 1: to me? And you're like, not a sociopath a sixteen

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Speaker 1: year old? I mean, so's it can be hard sometimes

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Speaker 1: people can, I think, jump to big worries about what

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Speaker 1: it means about character.

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Speaker 2: So this conversation. As it's evolving, it's reminding me of

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Speaker 2: something else that I really wanted to ask you about,

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Speaker 2: and you spoke about it so well. In the emotional

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Speaker 2: lives of teenagers, you've just highlighted that social awareness that

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Speaker 2: kids are really trying to assess themselves relative to others,

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Speaker 2: and you've highlighted the party situation. So I want to

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Speaker 2: bring that up when I think about my adolescent years. Lisa,

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I did so many dumb things, like

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Speaker 2: just stupid things. A quick story to illustrate there was.

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Speaker 2: So I'm a really keen surfer. I started surfing in

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Speaker 2: my early teens. By the time I had my driver's

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Speaker 2: license and I was allowed to drive the beach on

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Speaker 2: my own, have my own car. I was about seventeen

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Speaker 2: years old. We've been watching the weather forecast and we

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Speaker 2: knew that there was going to be some huge swell.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking I've got to convert to so we're talking

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Speaker 2: for me to swell. So what's that like? Sixteen four

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Speaker 2: times three twelve to fifteen feet swell? So big, big

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Speaker 2: seas and there's a break near my house. We were

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Speaker 2: so excited, the boys and I we all had to

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Speaker 2: sleep over at my place. We jumped into our two

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Speaker 2: cars and we drove to the beach as the sun's

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Speaker 2: coming up over the horizon. We've come around the corner,

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Speaker 2: looked across the lagoon. We can see the point break

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Speaker 2: and this enormous wave is rolling through. And I'm driving

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Speaker 2: the car and I remember seeing this wave and thinking

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Speaker 2: I'm actually going to die today. This is not a

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Speaker 2: good day to go surfing. This is a day of

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Speaker 2: death and destruction. But instead of saying that to my friends,

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Speaker 2: I wound the window down and I pumped my fist

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Speaker 2: out the windows two or three times, and I screamed whoao,

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Speaker 2: and my friends in the car were going, whoa, this

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Speaker 2: is going to be amazing. So the five or six

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Speaker 2: of us got to the beach. We're watching these waves

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Speaker 2: roll in as we put our wetsuits on and get

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Speaker 2: our surfboards under our arms. And I'm still thinking at

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Speaker 2: some point somebody is going to say this is a

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Speaker 2: bad idea. You've shaken your head like, no, they're not.

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Speaker 2: And we went surfing on this day, and how we survived,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It was nuts. And if I'd been

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Speaker 2: on my own, there's no way I would have gone surfing.

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Speaker 2: It was just silly. And what I'd love for you

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Speaker 2: to do is maybe share a bit about what you've

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Speaker 2: written in the book about the way that our teenager's

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Speaker 2: friends influence our teenager's emotional lives and subsequent decisions. What's

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Speaker 2: the deal with teens and friends and emotions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is the asterisk on the emotions are

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Speaker 1: helpful to reasoning argument. So you know, emotions, they deserve

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Speaker 1: a place of the personal board of directors. But what

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Speaker 1: we know with teenagers is that when they get around

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Speaker 1: their friends, emotions can actually shift their reasoning to make

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Speaker 1: it quite poor. And the technical terms we use are

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Speaker 1: cold and hot reasoning. So cold reasoning is the reasoning

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Speaker 1: you would have done on your own. It's the reasoning

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Speaker 1: with the kid at four o'clock in the afternoon when

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Speaker 1: you're like, hey, is there a party tonight and you're

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Speaker 1: like yes, and you say are you going to drink?

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Speaker 1: And they're like definitely, not not safe, not a good idea,

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Speaker 1: and you say fantastic and they mean it. They are

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Speaker 1: not lying. And then they get to the party or

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Speaker 1: they're with all their friends and everyone else is doing it,

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Speaker 1: or the kid they have a crush on is offering

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Speaker 1: them a drink, and they're like sure like and they're

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Speaker 1: completely in And it's because the wish to be part

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Speaker 1: of the group. This emotional charge of the situation takes

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Speaker 1: over and calls the shots. Right is the chair of

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Speaker 1: the board. And so the solution and it's not a

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Speaker 1: perfect solution, Like I'm not going to say, like, so

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Speaker 1: you can magically keep teenager safe all the time if

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Speaker 1: you just do this, you cannot do that. Is at

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Speaker 1: four o'clock when the kid says I am definitely not drinking,

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Speaker 1: you say, fantastic. If you get to the party and

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Speaker 1: all your friends are drinking, or the kids you have

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Speaker 1: a crush on offers you a drink, what's the plan?

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Speaker 1: So you make a plan in cold reasoning conditions, You're

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Speaker 1: going to you drive, so you tell them you can't

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Speaker 1: drink because you've got the car. You tell them that

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Speaker 1: you know you're on a medication. Like you tell them

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Speaker 1: anything you want. You come up with it, but come

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Speaker 1: up with the plan right now under cold cognition conditions.

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Speaker 1: Do not try to make it on the fly. Right

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Speaker 1: when you are with your friends and it's all happening.

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Speaker 2: The planning thing doesn't just work for the party. The

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Speaker 2: planning thing works. So in our home we have a system.

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Speaker 2: Every Sunday we have a family meeting on It takes

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Speaker 2: ten or fifteen minutes, but we want to make sure

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Speaker 2: that our family is improving and that we're functioning well,

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Speaker 2: and so we have this family meeting where we talk

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Speaker 2: about what went well, what didn't, what are we going

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Speaker 2: to focus on this week. And what we've discovered is

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Speaker 2: when we go through that process with the family, we're

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Speaker 2: really good at identifying what's going well, and we can

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Speaker 2: put a pretty done good list together of what hasn't

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Speaker 2: gone well this week as well, the kids are pretty

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Speaker 2: attentive to what's not working and then we'll pick one

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Speaker 2: thing to work on for the next week because we

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Speaker 2: really want our family to do well. But if we

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Speaker 2: just walk away at that point, all right, we're all

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Speaker 2: going to work on being nice to our siblings this week,

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Speaker 2: and then we walk away. So meetings done, nothing happens.

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Speaker 2: But when we go through the process of saying, all right,

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Speaker 2: how are we going to do it, what accountability measures,

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Speaker 2: what we put in place, or what steps are we

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Speaker 2: going to take to make sure that that happens, it

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Speaker 2: makes all the difference in the world, and it's that planning,

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Speaker 2: that planning that you've just described in the cold light

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Speaker 2: of day, when emotions are way way down. Yeah, Lisa,

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Speaker 2: I know that our time's starting to draw to an end.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple more questions points that I want to

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Speaker 2: draw from your book because it's just so valuable. I

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Speaker 2: love how you talk about perspective and being north of

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Speaker 2: thirty five. So in the book, you're just talking about

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Speaker 2: how well I use a metaphor that I call the

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Speaker 2: ladder of life. I have this conversation with my kids

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Speaker 2: when they want to do something dumble, when their emotions

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Speaker 2: are really big, I'll say to them, you know what,

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Speaker 2: you're fifteen, you're sixteen, you're eighteen, and you've just climbed

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Speaker 2: eighteen runs on the ladder of life, and the view

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Speaker 2: is spectacular. The view has never been so good from

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Speaker 2: the eighteenth run. Guess what you know. I'm just about

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Speaker 2: on run number fifty and I can't I'm not as

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Speaker 2: close to the ground as you are. I can't see

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Speaker 2: what's immediately under the ladder like you can anymore. But

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Speaker 2: my view is pretty darn expansive compared to being eighteen

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Speaker 2: runs up your commentary around being north of thirty five

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Speaker 2: is I guess very much along the same lines.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great metaphor. That's a great metaphor. It's

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Speaker 1: so perfect, you know. I think the thing about the

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Speaker 1: neurology of adolescence is it's hard for them to maintain perspective,

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Speaker 1: especially when they're upset, that their emotions are very very powerful,

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Speaker 1: and their emotions can override their very good reasoning more

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Speaker 1: than is true for people who are ages twenty four

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Speaker 1: to twenty five and then certainly older than that. And

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Speaker 1: I have memories and I'm sure you do too, of

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Speaker 1: being a teenager and like maybe like a bad day

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Speaker 1: or some you know, difficulty, and feeling horrible and feeling

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Speaker 1: sure that that would last forever, like not being able

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Speaker 1: to imagine being able to get through or pass that.

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Speaker 1: And that is a very uniquely adolescent experience, right that

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Speaker 1: of just feeling really lost in an emotion. And so

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Speaker 1: when our teenagers are upset and they really are spinning

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Speaker 1: in that place where they just can't seem to get

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Speaker 1: past it, or they just are really sure that it's

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Speaker 1: you know, as bad as it feels right now, is

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Speaker 1: how it's going to feel forever. It's sometimes really helpful

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Speaker 1: to do one of a few things. One is to

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Speaker 1: just say, look, I know how horrible this feels right now.

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Speaker 1: I promise you. I'm fifty two years old. I've seen

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Speaker 1: a lot. I really do think you're going to get

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Speaker 1: through this, right, I mean not a lot. But it's

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Speaker 1: a vote of confidence and that can be valuable. Another thing,

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Speaker 1: and this comes from some really cool research that I

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Speaker 1: cit in the book, is you can say, if your

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Speaker 1: friend was going through this, what would you say to them?

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Speaker 1: And just that act of saying, oh, well, I would

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Speaker 1: tell her like, it's not that big a deal and

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be fine, or find out with the teacher,

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Speaker 1: you know, like I mean like they can immediately switch

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Speaker 1: gears and find that part of their brain really and

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Speaker 1: then the other and again, using these judicially, I think,

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Speaker 1: is to say, how do you think you'll feel about

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Speaker 1: this in a week?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: And even that for a lot of teenagers, they'll be like, well,

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Speaker 1: in a week, it won't be that big a deal.

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Speaker 1: And we have research showing that that instantly actually grants

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Speaker 1: some emotional belief.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that second one. I use that one

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Speaker 2: on myself all the time when the kids are driving

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Speaker 2: me crazy, I think, what advice would I give somebody

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Speaker 2: else about this situation. You don't have to be a

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Speaker 2: parenting expert to do that. But I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you've ever done that to yourself.

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Speaker 1: I think I do more than like, how's this going

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Speaker 1: to feel in a week? Like? You know, is this

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Speaker 1: because I can get like, oh, it's such a big

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Speaker 1: deal at the end of the world, I'm like, not really,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love the perspective. Is that from Ethan Cross?

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Speaker 1: And yeah?

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Speaker 2: I love his work? Yeah? Okay, So I have two

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Speaker 2: more questions. One of them is a very, very big question.

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Speaker 2: The other one's pretty short and tight. But before we

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Speaker 2: get there, I'd love to do a rapid fire around

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Speaker 2: with you. Just eight or ten really quick questions, one

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Speaker 2: sentence answers, whatever comes off the top of your head.

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Speaker 2: Are you up for that?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely?

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Speaker 2: All right? What's the best parenting book that you've read?

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Speaker 2: Not yours online?

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Speaker 1: I love The Magic Years by Somemmer Freyburke. It's a classic.

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Speaker 1: It's for young kids.

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Speaker 2: What's the hardest mental health challenge that you regularly face

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Speaker 2: with your clients? They're coming in and seeing you in

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Speaker 2: your officers.

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Speaker 1: Avoidance, Using avoidance to manage anxiety very very sticky, and

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Speaker 1: much worse post pandemic.

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Speaker 2: Wow, your biggest personal doctor, Lisa de Moore emotional trigger?

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Speaker 2: What sets you off?

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Speaker 1: I can feel pretty swamp by work. I can get

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Speaker 1: pretty overwhelmed and feel like I'm never going to get

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Speaker 1: it all done, and get really anxious and feel frustrated

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Speaker 1: that I'm not making the kind of headway that I

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Speaker 1: wish I were.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can relate to that. What's the one thing

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Speaker 2: that you think will turn things around? Regarding the current

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Speaker 2: adolescent mental health crisis? If there was a silver bullet,

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Speaker 2: what would be the closest thing to that.

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Speaker 1: We know what it is. Actually, it's strong relationships with

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Speaker 1: carrying adults. That is the single most powerful for us

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Speaker 1: for adolescent mental health.

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Speaker 2: So I'm glad you said that. Let me ask you,

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Speaker 2: is social media to blame for mental health challenges in

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Speaker 2: our teams?

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Speaker 1: If it were the only explanation, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: I was doing for the first twenty years of my career.

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Speaker 2: Okay, very good. I love that response.

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Speaker 1: Here's what we know. It can be really problematic, and

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Speaker 1: it can be really problematic if kids are looking at

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Speaker 1: harmful content, or if social media is getting in the

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Speaker 1: way of what we know is essential for healthy development, sleep,

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Speaker 1: in person interactions, physical activity, helping others. So it's a

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Speaker 1: double edged sword and we've got to watch out for

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Speaker 1: the dangerous side of it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, thank you. Three more. What's been your favorite age

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Speaker 2: for your children to be? I mean, you've raised one

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Speaker 2: to adulthood already and another one who's entering the adolescent

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Speaker 2: is what's been your favorite age?

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Speaker 1: I love fourteen year olds. There are such goof balls,

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Speaker 1: and they are so philosophical right, and they get on

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Speaker 1: either side of that they are more GOOFBALLI and more philosophical.

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Speaker 1: But fourteen for girls is where it all goes. Like

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Speaker 1: they're equally in equal parts goofy and philosophical.

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Speaker 2: And so many people are rolling their rise right now

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Speaker 2: saying fourteen. How could you say fourteen? But I love that.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I have a daughter who is thirteen

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Speaker 2: right now, and we just delight and hurt, super sensitive,

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Speaker 2: so much emotion, Lisa, but so much fun. What psychological

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Speaker 2: finding or research has influenced your work with teens the most.

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Speaker 1: This is going to seem so boring and basic. The

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Speaker 1: research on the impact of sleep on emotion regulation, that

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Speaker 1: teenagers need about nine hours of sleep a night. As

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Speaker 1: soon as they're getting less than that, they are more irritable,

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Speaker 1: more reactive, more anxious, more prone to suicide. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like everything hinges on a good night's sleep.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 1: Those findings that are so clear about how powerful sleep

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Speaker 1: is have really shaped my clinical work so that I

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Speaker 1: start by assessing how a teenager is sleeping before I

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Speaker 1: do anything else.

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Speaker 2: You think that I'm going to find that boring, but

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Speaker 2: I actually find it reassuring because for some time now,

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Speaker 2: when people have asked me similar questions, I have said,

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Speaker 2: the number one thing you can do to be a

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Speaker 2: bit of parent and the number one thing you can

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Speaker 2: do to raise a emotionally healthy kids, other than making

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Speaker 2: sure that the relationship is strong and solid, is to

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Speaker 2: make sure you kids are getting enough sleep. I think

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Speaker 2: it's the number one well being aide, and.

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Speaker 1: It's so powerful because it contributes, you know, because as

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Speaker 1: soon as you're not sleeping, then you become more anxious,

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Speaker 1: and then as you're more anxious, you sleep less. I mean,

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Speaker 1: is it's like the Lynch pan for mental health.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we've slowed down the rapid fire. But this

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Speaker 2: is the last one. But I just love your answers

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Speaker 2: so much. What podcast do you currently hooked on?

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Speaker 1: Oh, I really like the Azra Kline podcast. He's an

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Speaker 1: American journalist for the New York Times, and he's really

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Speaker 1: a nerd and he gets nerds on his podcast, and

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Speaker 1: I like nerds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I enjoyed that podcast as well. I'm glad that

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Speaker 2: I've got one on my list. All Right, my last

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Speaker 2: two questions for you. This one's a slightly heavier one.

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Speaker 2: When I picked up your book, I didn't think this

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Speaker 2: would be in the emotional lives of teenagers, and I

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Speaker 2: was so delighted when I got probably halfway through the

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Speaker 2: book and you began to address it. I didn't see

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Speaker 2: it coming, and I had it on my list of

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Speaker 2: things that I wanted to ask you about anyway, and

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Speaker 2: then when I saw it, I thought, like, yes, So

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Speaker 2: it may initially seem like it's a step away from

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Speaker 2: emotions in teens, but you address it so beautifully. And

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Speaker 2: it was a burning question that teenage girls had when

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Speaker 2: I interviewed them from my book about teenage Girls, Misconnection,

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Speaker 2: and it's the question of how they're treated at the

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Speaker 2: hands of boys. They experience everything from basic disrespect to

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Speaker 2: name calling right up to sexually explicit commentary and interaction

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Speaker 2: and expectation. And what I would love to get is

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Speaker 2: your take on where this comes from. Why does so

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Speaker 2: many boys feel like this is acceptable? Now, I know

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Speaker 2: it's a supremely complex issue.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you two reasons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, please please, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So one, unfortunately, is there's a lot of norming

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Speaker 1: of this behavior in the culture. I am trying to

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Speaker 1: wrap my head around how many boys are interested in

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Speaker 1: the work if you can call it that of Andrew

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Speaker 1: Teat and people like him who are flagrantly misogynistic who

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's certain higher platform. And so there's a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of exposure to talking about girls and women

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Speaker 1: in really degrading ways, you know, endorsing treating them in

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Speaker 1: those ways. And I really think a lot about norms

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Speaker 1: and boys can spend a lot of time in social

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Speaker 1: media environments where that is just how things go, and

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Speaker 1: it carries over even into things like sports commentary on

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Speaker 1: women's sports, Like I mean, they can just see it,

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Speaker 1: and so it just doesn't seem so strange to do

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Speaker 1: that anymore. If you're in environments where that's really common.

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Speaker 2: Well, even gaming, the conversations that happen when a girl

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Speaker 2: enters an online game, it just become breathtaking, and it

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Speaker 2: is totally the norm, completely the.

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Speaker 1: Norm, totally normed. So that's a problem. I also lay

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Speaker 1: out an argument in this book that you probably noticed.

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Speaker 1: I have an extremely long note on it because I

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Speaker 1: cannot believe no one else has said this before. So

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Speaker 1: I'm I like laid out all of the research that

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Speaker 1: I did find and what I didn't find, and apologized

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Speaker 1: if somebody else came up with this before I did.

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Speaker 1: What we know is that sexual harassment starts usually around

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Speaker 1: age eleven or twelve, much younger than people think. And

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Speaker 1: what we know is that by eleven or twelve, most

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Speaker 1: girls are well underway with puberty and most boys are not.

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Speaker 1: And so I think part of what may be at work,

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Speaker 1: and this is not to forgive it, but I think

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Speaker 1: we've got to come up with as many solutions as possible,

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Speaker 1: is that it feels really lousy often to be an

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Speaker 1: eleven or twelve year old boy because in the classroom,

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Speaker 1: girls have an enormous cognitive advantage because puberty converse a

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Speaker 1: great deal of neurological strength and developmentally, eleven and twelve

435
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,919
Speaker 1: year old girls are by and large taller, stronger, faster

436
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 1: than boys. And so I've started to wonder about whether

437
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 1: for some boys, harassing girls becomes a compensatory behavior to

438
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 1: try to maintain a sense of self esteem because girls

439
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: are running around, you know, circles around them in the

440
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,360
Speaker 1: classroom and literally running circles around them, you know, at recess.

441
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: So those are some of the thoughts I have.

442
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,439
Speaker 2: On that, Lisa. Have you come across Richard Raves from

443
00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,200
Speaker 2: the brook Chair and his book of Boys of Men? Yeah,

444
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: so work in his podcast interviews and in his book,

445
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 2: he makes an argument that because of that developmental difference,

446
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: the fact that girls are at least a year in

447
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 2: front of boys, particularly by the time they get to

448
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 2: high school, he suggests that if we could start boys

449
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 2: at school at least a year later, that would go

450
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 2: some of the way towards I guess negating the issue

451
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: that you're raising, that is that boys would be that

452
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 2: year older, therefore that that year more mature, which means

453
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 2: that they may be less likely to engage in this behavior.

454
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 2: How does that sit with you?

455
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 1: Pretty good? I mean, I do not tick lately. What

456
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: it means on certainly in the US, wheld were horrible

457
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: about childcare. You know what it means on the childcare

458
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 1: end for the parent who then has that kid home

459
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: another year. So that is a real issue. But I

460
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 1: will tell you, I mean, I'm an advocate for all teenagers,

461
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 1: but a lot of my work has been on and

462
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 1: about girls. It'd be better for the girls, you know,

463
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: I mean, like, don't we want our girls to be

464
00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 1: surrounded by boys who are there equals, you know. And

465
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: it's not that the boys don't become their equals, but

466
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 1: there's a lag and it's not the boy's fault. It's

467
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: just a straight up developmental reality of who hits puberty first.

468
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So your main thesis is it's modeling from

469
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 2: the broader society and particularly from the online communities that

470
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 2: that boys are involved in. And it's also a compensatory

471
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 2: response because boys just feel INFERI the girls are. They're

472
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 2: more intelligent, they're more regulated, they're more mature, they're developing earlier.

473
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're stronger. I mean, they're able to outrun there

474
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 1: those boys. And I mean it shifts at thirteen, but

475
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 1: it's very prominent at eleven.

476
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,360
Speaker 2: And twelve, and it's so much of their masculinity identity

477
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: is tied up with their ability to be strong.

478
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and not get beat by a girl. And so

479
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: I mean it's a tricky time for boys. I mean,

480
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: I really, I really have a great deal of empathy,

481
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: you know, for in the US it's you know, fifth

482
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: and sixth and seventh grade boys. I mean, I would

483
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: not want to be them. I think.

484
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 2: Last question for you, Lisa, And this has been such

485
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: a delightful conversation. I'm so grateful for it. We've talked

486
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: about the emotional lives of teenagers, and we've covered a

487
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 2: lot of topics. I'd love to dive deeper into all

488
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 2: of them. But I just want to ask a question

489
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 2: for parents who are listening and who are just worried.

490
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 2: They're hearing the things we've talked about, and they're thinking, oh, this,

491
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: this still isn't covering off the stuff that I'm most

492
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 2: worried about. When should parents worry about their teens and

493
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: their emotionality?

494
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: I love that question. It's a great place to wrap up.

495
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 1: There's two times I want them to worry. One is

496
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: if a teenager's mood goes to a concerning place and

497
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: stays there. So we expect teenagers to be up and

498
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: down and up and down. That's typical development. We don't

499
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: expect them to be down or paralyzed by anxiety or

500
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: extremely angry unhappy for more than a day or two.

501
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 1: I mean, like, really, we expect a great deal of

502
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: fluidity in their emotions. The other time to worry is

503
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: if a teenager uses what I call costly coping, So

504
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: they're managing emotion, they're doing it by like smoking a

505
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 1: lot of marijuana or being really hard on the people

506
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: around them, or self harming. Right that that may help

507
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: them feel better, Like those things will actually help them

508
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 1: feel better, but those are very you know, those are

509
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: going to really add up and be problematic over time.

510
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: What a great conversation, doctor Lisa de Moore, the author

511
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: of The Emotional Lives of Teenagers. We've covered so much,

512
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: and yet the one thing that we really haven't talked about. Actually,

513
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: there are two things that we haven't talked about. Number One,

514
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 2: you've used literally my favorite quote of all quotes about

515
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: emotions in the opening page of your book that time

516
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: cannot quote. It's a deep comfort to children to discover

517
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: that their feelings are in all part of the human experience.

518
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 2: That's really what our whole conversation has been about today.

519
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 2: But the last two chapters in your book, helping teens

520
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 2: to express their feelings and helping teens regain emotional control.

521
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: I would pay five times the price of the book

522
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: just for those two chapters. They're just so practical, so helpful,

523
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: so so real. So folks, The Emotional of Teenagers Raising Connected,

524
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: capable and compassionate Adolescents by the wonderful doctor Lisa the Moore,

525
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: go out and grab a copy of it. It is

526
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: just a fabulous book. Lisa. It's been so good to

527
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: talk to you. Thank you for your so much.

528
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: It's such a pleasure.

529
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely absolute delight to have you here. The Happy

530
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 2: Families podcast is produced by Justin Rowland for Bridge Media.

531
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. And if you'd like

532
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: more information about Lisa's book, you can find it out

533
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 2: show notes or just google it. You'll find Lisa wherever

534
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 2: you need to and check out her podcast. Ask Lisa

535
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 2: for really thoughtful advice on how to help raise teenagers

536
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 2: and kids of all ages in fact, and also check

537
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: out my Facebook page, Doctor Justin Coulson's Happy Families For more,