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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Caalcutin woman from Gadighal Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os I'm Zara

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Speaker 2: and over the next two weeks we're going to be

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Speaker 2: bringing you a bonus series featuring our favorite deep dives

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Speaker 2: from twenty twenty three. We've put together the best deep

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Speaker 2: dives to listen to on the beach road, tripping when

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Speaker 2: you don't want to speak to the person next to you,

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Speaker 2: or just reflecting on the year that was. Welcome to

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Speaker 2: tda's summer series. We have something really really special for

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Speaker 2: you today. It's an interview with Pam Melroy, who is

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Speaker 2: the Deputy Administrator of NASA pretty core position. Pam was

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Speaker 2: just the second woman to command a Space Shuttle mission

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Speaker 2: and has logged more than thirty eight days in space.

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Speaker 3: It's a little bit like waking up and finding yourself magic.

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Speaker 3: You can fly, yeah, you can lift huge objects with

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Speaker 3: just a finger. It is almost like being in a

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Speaker 3: new magic country.

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Speaker 2: Pam's been in Australia visiting the Australian Space Agency as

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Speaker 2: well as Parliament House, where she caught up with TDA

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Speaker 2: channelist Tom Crowley.

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Speaker 4: Pam Melroy, thank you very much for speaking to the

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Speaker 4: Daily Os.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Tom. I'm very excited to be back in Australia.

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Speaker 4: It's great to have you here now. NASA and others

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Speaker 4: often talk about that we might be entering a golden

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Speaker 4: era of space exploration. Now we landed on the Moon

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Speaker 4: decades ago. What makes now potentially the golden era.

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Speaker 3: That's a wonderful question. Some people are calling it the

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Speaker 3: second wave. But I think if you look back at

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Speaker 3: the Golden Age of aviation, which was in the forties

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Speaker 3: and fifties, what she saw were substantial government investments in

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Speaker 3: flying higher, further, faster, more efficiently, and aviation records were

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Speaker 3: broken and capabilities were being developed. But more importantly, they

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Speaker 3: were being spun off rapidly to commercial and the commercial

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Speaker 3: aviation industry that we know it today is based off

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Speaker 3: those investments and the formation of the commercial aviation industry

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Speaker 3: really occurred in the fifties and sixties as a direct

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Speaker 3: result of those investments. That's the difference is the things

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Speaker 3: that we are doing are not just pushing the boundaries

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Speaker 3: of space, but they're also being rapidly absorbed by our

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Speaker 3: commercial industry, which is going to have an impact on

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Speaker 3: all Australians and the whole world and every possible industry

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Speaker 3: the way the aviation industry has.

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Speaker 4: When it comes to I suppose human inquiry and developing

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Speaker 4: human understanding in space, what are we still learning and

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Speaker 4: hoping to learn when we go to space.

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Speaker 3: We have so many astounding things that we've learn earned.

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Speaker 3: Just look at the James Webb Space Telescope looking back

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Speaker 3: in time to the formation of the universe. We know

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Speaker 3: that we're just barely scratching the surface of understanding the

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Speaker 3: formation of the universe and the foundational physics of our universe,

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Speaker 3: which still mystify us. But when you add in the

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Speaker 3: fact that in microgravity we can also study the human

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Speaker 3: body in a way that you cannot do here on Earth.

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Speaker 3: We can look at things like combustion and fluid mechanics,

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Speaker 3: and those give us foundational insights that impact technologies of

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Speaker 3: the future. But the one thing that excites me is

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Speaker 3: the potential search for life, especially on Mars. We know

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Speaker 3: that Mars was once a warm planet with an atmosphere

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Speaker 3: and flowing water and possibly with life. Why is it

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Speaker 3: now dry, cold and barren? What can we learn that

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Speaker 3: we can apply here on Earth?

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Speaker 4: Fascinating and Australia's role in this is obviously growing. A

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Speaker 4: few years ago we launched a Space Agency. I believe

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Speaker 4: you're in the country as part of that launch, and

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Speaker 4: you're here now to launch, among other things, a program

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Speaker 4: where first nation scientists will have the opportunity to work

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Speaker 4: at NASA. Why is Australia's participation in this important?

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Speaker 3: Well, Australia is a wonderful partner for us. We can

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Speaker 3: see that in so many ways. The strength of the

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Speaker 3: relationship between the United States and Australia is only growing

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Speaker 3: and deepening, and we think that the civil space partnership

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Speaker 3: is a critical part of that. It benefits both countries

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Speaker 3: by raising the capabilities that we can do together and partnership.

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Speaker 3: I was excited about the formation of the Space Agency

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Speaker 3: because for NASA, until there was a Space Agency, there

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Speaker 3: was no front door for partnerships with other countries and

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Speaker 3: so the formation of the Space Agency was a critical

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Speaker 3: moment for Australia and they're off to the races. They're

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Speaker 3: doing an amazing job. I think the goal was to

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Speaker 3: create twenty thousand new jobs by twenty thirty. They're already

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Speaker 3: at seventeen thousand, so they're clearly going to blow past that.

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Speaker 3: We are here because there's a range of areas that

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Speaker 3: we think we can cooperate successfully on. So we're excited

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Speaker 3: about the announcement of the Lunar Rover program through the

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Speaker 3: Trailblazer program, which will contribute and support to human science

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Speaker 3: exploration on the surface of the Moon using the unique

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Speaker 3: remote asset management and robotics technology in Australia. We loved

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Speaker 3: the announcement about the Indigenous Space Academy, where five brilliant

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Speaker 3: Indigenous students will go to NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab. That's

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Speaker 3: really important for a couple of different reasons. Not only

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Speaker 3: will they contribute to the science that we do together

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Speaker 3: by working at JPL, they will also be able to

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Speaker 3: bring those skill sets back to them to Australia, raise

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Speaker 3: the technical capabilities of Australia, and then there'll be an

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Speaker 3: inspiration to other Indigenous students and in fact all Australian

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Speaker 3: students to participate in STEM. Those things are all really

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Speaker 3: important to all of our countries.

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Speaker 4: There's cooperation in space, I suppose there's also competition in space.

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Speaker 4: And when you go back a few decades, the Spice

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Speaker 4: rise between the United States and the Soviet Union consumed

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Speaker 4: a lot of attention. These days, China is rapidly increasing

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Speaker 4: its activity in space. Is it reasonable to view space

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Speaker 4: in strategic terms? And how should we think about that

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Speaker 4: at the moment?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very important. Actually, space is increasingly crowded and competitive.

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Speaker 3: There's no question about that. This is a high growth

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Speaker 3: economic sector, and I think that we're looking at economic

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Speaker 3: competitiveness in a very important way. It is a very

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Speaker 3: different situation than Apollo for a lot of different reasons.

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Speaker 3: First of all, this is an international partnership. And in fact,

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Speaker 3: in a week's time or so, we're going to be

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Speaker 3: announcing the first Artemis crew who will go around the

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Speaker 3: Moon on a test flight of the Orion spacecraft, first

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Speaker 3: crewed spaceflight, first crewed test of human beings going out

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Speaker 3: back to the Moon. And we'll have three Americans in

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Speaker 3: a Canadian and that is the face of the future

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Speaker 3: as we go out for a sustained presence of humans

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Speaker 3: not just on the Moon, on to Mars, but actually

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Speaker 3: throughout the Solar System. We really have to look to

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Speaker 3: our friends and our like minded partners who share our

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Speaker 3: values around scientific cooperation, around transparency, and frankly, around democracy,

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Speaker 3: and we look to those partners to ensure that as

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Speaker 3: we go out, we're bringing the best of humanity into space.

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Speaker 4: Two more topics that I want to come to quickly

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Speaker 4: if I may. One is climate change. I suspect that

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Speaker 4: there will be some people in the audience who would

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Speaker 4: ask a question along the lines of, well, why should

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Speaker 4: we be spending so much time focused on space when

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Speaker 4: we have climate change and existential threat here on Earth.

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Speaker 3: Well, we do see climate as an existential threat. But

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Speaker 3: what a lot of people don't realize is that eighty

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Speaker 3: percent of the data to help us understand what's happening

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Speaker 3: to the Earth comes from space. And there's an important

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Speaker 3: reason for that. We simply cannot instrument the Earth terrestrially

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Speaker 3: enough to understand the Earth as a full system. We

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Speaker 3: have to look from space. It's where we get that

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Speaker 3: broader perspective, and NASA with its partners, contributes enormously. Most

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Speaker 3: people know us as a space agency, we're also an

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Speaker 3: aeronautics agency and in fact we're investing in decarbonizing aviation,

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Speaker 3: one of the hardest industries to decarbonize. But we're also

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Speaker 3: a climate agency. So the cooperation that we have if

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Speaker 3: we signed a statement of intent with the Australian Space

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Speaker 3: Agency around a special calibration satellite that Australia tends to develop,

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Speaker 3: that will help ensure all climate data that comes from

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Speaker 3: space is more precise through this caliber bration function. That

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Speaker 3: is a fantastic idea and an investment in the future,

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Speaker 3: and it's going to help us understand much better. So

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Speaker 3: I think it's not an either or situation. In fact,

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Speaker 3: space is a critical part of addressing climate change.

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Speaker 4: And finally we've gotten through a lot of serious policy issues.

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Speaker 4: But I have to ask you to finish. You spend

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Speaker 4: a lot of time in space, and I'm sure you've

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Speaker 4: been asked this question a million times, but what does

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Speaker 4: it feel like to be in space? And how has

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Speaker 4: been in space changed the way that you feel about

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Speaker 4: the world that we live in.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's a remarkable experience. It's a little bit like

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Speaker 3: waking up and finding yourself magic. You can fly, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you can lift huge objects with just a finger. You

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Speaker 3: can float, and it's very surreal. I think it is

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Speaker 3: almost like being in a new magic country. But I

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Speaker 3: think most importantly of all, all astronauts feel this. Everyone

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Speaker 3: who's been to space has experienced what we call the

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Speaker 3: overview effect. You look out the window at our gorgeous Earth.

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Speaker 3: Our eyes see in ways that you can't capture in

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Speaker 3: a photograph, the brilliant colors, but also the dynamics of

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Speaker 3: the Earth, and what you really see more than anything,

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Speaker 3: is that all parts of Earth are a single system.

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Speaker 3: So you don't see racial divisions, religious divisions, or political divisions.

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Speaker 3: What you see as a single spaceship Earth, and we

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Speaker 3: are all crew members as citizens of Earth, and that perspective,

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Speaker 3: I think carries forward. You cannot be unchanged by that.

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Speaker 3: You become an environmentalist if you were not one before,

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Speaker 3: And I think all astronauts feel very strongly that cooperation

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Speaker 3: to protect and steward the Earth is critically important with

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Speaker 3: all countries of Earth.

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Speaker 4: Is it really difficult then, when, so to speak, you

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Speaker 4: come back down to Earth and say, maybe so many

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Speaker 4: people don't have that perspective. Is it difficult on a

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Speaker 4: personal level having kind of gained that overview perspective to.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you. I'm the deputy administrator of NASA.

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Speaker 3: Our administrator, Bill Nelson, was an elected official for over

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Speaker 3: four decades in the United States, and he often talks

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Speaker 3: about how it has impacted his public service, and I

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Speaker 3: think you can see that in his record that he

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Speaker 3: has promoted those kinds of decisions. So we often joke

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Speaker 3: that if we could send every politician on Earth to space,

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Speaker 3: we might see a very different outcome. But I have

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Speaker 3: to add the exciting surge I mentioned earlier about the

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Speaker 3: commercial space community and how fast that's growing. Maybe that's

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Speaker 3: a real opportunity for all human beings in the not

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Speaker 3: too distant future, and for anybody who's been an explorer,

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Speaker 3: the idea of having other people see the wonders that

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Speaker 3: you've seen. I'm excited about that, and I hope everyone

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Speaker 3: listening has the opportunity to see the Earth from space.

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Speaker 4: Pam Melroy, thank you so much for your time. Thank you,

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Speaker 4: thank you for joining us on the Daily OS this morning.

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Speaker 4: If you learned something from today's episode, don't forget to

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Speaker 4: hit subscribe so there's a TDA episode waiting for you

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Speaker 4: every morning. We'll be back again tomorrow. Until then, have

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Speaker 4: a great day,