WEBVTT - The Oscar Winner 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:06.000 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:10.000 verdicts against all three defendants. It was absolute shambles, to 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:12.600 tell you the truth, just absolutely really heavant blood on 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.120 his clothing the day after the alleged detemp. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:16.880 On a shallow mud bank and it fits through a river. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.160 Basically, I think most of the people are used. 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:21.200 To me, there are good people. I think a really 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.680 important question we need to ask is how many Indigenous 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:26.279 prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.800 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pull back the 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.360 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.160 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:37.440 Amy Maguire. 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.120 And I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:46.440 Prisoner Support Service. Our producer is Paul Watts. Music by 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:50.920 Clint Curtis and produced in collaboration with the Brisbane Indigenous 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:55.960 Media Association. And a warning, this series contains the names 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:00.280 of deceased peoples and has distressing content that might said 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:05.520 some listeners. Now another reminder, if you're joining us for 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.480 the first time in this episode, you might want to 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.360 go back and start from the beginning because there's a 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:13.920 lot of information that we've covered in the first three 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:15.600 installments of this podcast. 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.280 Last week we told you about Kevin Henry's confession. It's 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.840 the only thing that really ties Kevin to Linda's death. Remember, 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.480 Linda's official cause of death was drowning, and she was 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.120 found on the opposite side of Tanuba House on the 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:34.640 racecourse side of the river two kilometers downstream. Before she 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.000 was placed in the Fitzroy River, she was victim to 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.679 a horrific assault perpetrated by three women and witnessed by 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:44.760 about twenty people, including Kevin. Now, in the last episode, 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:47.640 we read out an excerpt of Kevin's confession, which was 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:50.560 recorded in the Rock Campden Police station by Senior Constable 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.680 Leslie Girk and Senior Constable Robert Hunt. 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.480 In this episode, we're going to continue looking at Kevin's confession, 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:03.120 and we'll be doing that with a very special guest. 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.120 But before we introduce him, let's go back and stick 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:11.160 with us to two thousand and two, the Academy Awards 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.559 or Oscars over in America and ASCAR. 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:18.000 Nominee in nineteen ninety seven for his performance in pulp fiction, 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:19.680 Samuel L. 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:28.359 Jackson. You've just seen powerful evidence of how a documentary 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.079 can chronicle, illuminate, or move a people to action. One 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.200 of the following documentary features has been selected to join 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:35.880 their company. 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:43.080 That's Glenn Close introducing Samuel L. Jackson, who was announcing 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:47.440 the winner of that year's Academy Award for Best Documentary. 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:54.840 And the Oscar Goals Too Murder on a Sunday Morning. 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.760 Now, later in the episode, we're going to be joined 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.000 by one of the stars of that documentary, Patrick McGinnis, 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.440 a public defender in Florida who is expert in tearing 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:06.839 apart forced confessions. 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:09.600 But first, we thought we'd start this episode with a 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:12.839 very simple experiment. I thought I would try it out 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.840 on Amy I rang her earlier in the week. Have 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:17.880 you got a pen and paper? 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.800 I've got yeah, I've got yes, I got paper, Okay, cool. 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:25.680 I don't know how it's going to work. Is normally 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.840 the way this read technique works because you actually need 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:31.720 to be sitting there. But so, I don't know if 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:33.440 it will work over the phone. 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:35.280 We're going to at least try. 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.040 We're going to try. So you've got a pen and paper, yep, 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:50.920 and we're recording. Yeah, okay, write down the numbers one, two, three, four. Yeah, okay, 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:56.560 write down the name of a vegetable and tell me what. 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:58.600 It is now, oh, carrot? 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:05.600 Yeah, and pick a letter from the alphabet pretty quickly, 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:11.720 and not J and R. Okay, what was that? H? Okay? 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:18.679 And of those numbers one, two, and three four, circle 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:22.640 one of the numbers? Yep? Which one did you circle two? 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.039 After I'd done that, Martin had me sign into a 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.800 joint Gmail account because as I was writing down my answers, 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:36.360 he was also predicting what I was going to write. Okay, 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:39.760 I'm just signing into the Gmail. 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:45.000 Yeah, okay, you're in yep. Okay. Now it would be 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:49.120 pretty easy for me to have sent you something. So 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:53.479 go now to the trash trash, Yeah, what's in the 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:54.039 trash can? 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:55.880 To carrot? H? 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.680 And what did you write down to carrot? H? 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.359 But did you just write that? When did you write that? 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:03.360 As I was asking you the question? 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:05.960 Really, because I don't understand how you did that? 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:07.159 How are you? 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:10.200 It's very easy. So I did it to Mum beforehand, 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:13.160 but people can do it at time, and it's very simple. 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:18.200 It's basically just word tricks to get someone to give 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.719 an answer you want. And the reason you do that 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.240 it has nothing to do with the answers you've given. 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:30.159 Most people pick A or h N of people. 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:31.760 Pick carrot, are you serious? 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.800 Yeah? And left handers tend to pick two, and right 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.400 handers tend to pick three. Are you left or right? Oh? 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:39.200 A right hand? 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:44.080 Okay, So that's okay. So normally what you would do 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.960 is you start with the carrot type one and that's 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:53.080 all you need because the reason you do that in 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:57.159 an interrogation, it's called a bluff. And what you're bluffing 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:02.120 is that I know things that I don't know that 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:06.080 can't be true, but I'm getting you to think I 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.279 know it, and because it's come from your mouth, but 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:14.440 I know it, I'm just hiding your level of anxiety. 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.320 So now what I know I can do is I 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.640 can lie to you and I can make you believe 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:25.120 those lies, so I can feed you information and have 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.960 you repeating them thinking that they're your own answers. 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:33.320 So you told me you led me to pick those answers. 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.200 I led you to pick those answers. And so now 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.839 when I lead the interview, and we know Kevin did 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:43.360 this in terms of giving yes or no answers, if 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.599 I lead you to a question, and all I need 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.560 you to do is say yes. Suddenly, that becomes a 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:53.359 very easy way of extracting a confession. Now, that tactic 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:55.560 I just used on Amy was one of the read 0:06:55.680 --> 0:07:00.599 interrogation techniques. They're widely used in North America, but have 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.680 come under a great deal of scrutiny because of concerns 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.520 they lead to false confessions. We told you previously about 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:11.080 the rates of false confessions in the United States. Now 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.880 we aren't saying that this technique was used on Kevin, 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.840 but in it you see how susceptible any person is 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:21.200 to this type of interrogation technique. We don't know what 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.960 happened to Kevin before the tape began rolling and during 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.800 and when they stopped the tape twice. You, as a 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:32.000 listener would have probably come up with your own interpretation 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:36.040 based on the transcript of Kevin's confession. Today, we're going 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:38.160 to give you a little more background to the history 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:41.800 of false confessions. And we're doing that with Pat McGinnis, 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.200 who was the public defender featured in Murder on a 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:46.040 Sunday Morning. 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:51.440 I'm Pat McGuinness and I defended people charged with killing people. 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:58.120 Murder on a Sunday Morning documented the trial of Brenton Butler, 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.360 an African American teenager who was picked up while walking 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.720 to put in a job application on a Sunday morning 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:06.480 and then charged with the murder of a white tourist 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:10.280 in Jacksonville, Florida. He was falsely identified by the husband 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:12.679 of the victim as being the perpetrator and then later 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.600 forced to sign a statement confessing to the crime. Before 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:17.760 that it was establishing court that he had been punched 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:20.600 and intimidated by a cop prior to giving that statement. 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.360 Brenton was acquitted as the charge, and another man was 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.400 later convicted based on a tip sent to Pat McGinnis, 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:32.720 a personally being very inspired by mister McGinnis's legal worker 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:36.720 over the years, all stemming from that documentary. Now we 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.560 contacted Pat because the issue of false confession formed a 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.640 central part of murder on a Sunday Morning. But when 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.800 we contacted him, we found he had several other cases 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:50.080 that more closely fit Kevin's case. Rang him at his 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:54.080 Florida office earlier this week and apologies for the sound 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:55.360 quality of this recording. 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.400 Patrick McGinnis, thank you for joining us Son Kurt in 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:00.160 the podcast. 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:02.560 Must we commend the care. 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:06.839 It's well known to many Australians who follow Prime Documentary's 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.520 Crime series about your work on murder on a Sunday 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.160 morning in the Brenton Butler case. But I was wondering 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.480 if you could tell us more about the work you've done, 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.600 not just on that case, but other cases that involve 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:19.760 false confessions. 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:21.520 Certainly, there's a. 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:26.120 Topic that's interested me greatly. For over thirty years. During 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.280 the course of my career, I've been involved in the 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:32.720 representation of between four and five hundred try to be homocide. 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.600 During that time a fair number of what I would 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.560 call false confessions. They come in a variety of summer 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:46.160 confessions which are given simply a result of pusion by 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:50.480 the interrogating authorities, and some, because of the efficacy of 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.440 their efforts, are actually come to believe recently in the 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:58.520 truthfulness of the actual confession of Vegre, which are in 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.640 fact false. Because of that, I've studied the area somewhat 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.000 and try to stay a breast of developments and research 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.440 in the area, and a number of the social science 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.160 authors have fortunately been writing on it in the last 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:11.800 two decades. 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.480 And can you tell me when you come across a 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.080 statement or a case, is there anything that tips you 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:22.640 off for is there something primarily you look for in 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:26.040 a confession or a statement that suggests to you something's 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:26.559 not wrong. 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:31.800 Well, for me, the most telling and obvious is is 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.000 there a conflict between a statement that obtained and the 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:40.439 demonstrable physical evidence. When people are trying to please their interrogators, 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:44.160 they don't make statements. But unless the police, which is 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:48.280 not uncommon, feed than information about defense, they will often 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:52.600 get factual matters wrong. I mean, I have a case 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:58.400 not long ago or fortunately an American law its detectives 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:02.640 to lie during interrogation to tender's evidence that there is not. 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:06.959 And they took the stngman of substandard intelligence. They questioned 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:11.199 him over a period of say seventeen hours. They told 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:13.959 him that they had DNA which implicated him there has 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.040 other bits of evidence, and he came to believe that 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.000 they were correct because they gave him a mechanism for 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.400 you know, they told him he had likely had a 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.360 blackout and said he's been drinking and so on, and 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:27.880 he came to believe what they were telling him. But 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.960 he couldn't get a single fact about the killing correct. 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:36.520 On the tape, they take a topographical map, and they say, well, 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.480 shows where it happened, and he points to the electric 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.559 substation with no Peter, you know that or not? And 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:44.640 he points to the parking lot and they say no, Peter, 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.719 and then they pick his hand up and bring it 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.560 down the map behind the hospitals and we could buy 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:55.199 that and that sort of feeding information when he clearly 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.840 doesn't know what's going on. They asked him howie builder 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:04.280 and the whore around with my fist, and they responded, Peter, 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.040 you know that or not? If he just looks at them, nonplussing. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:08.560 Us a rock. 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.240 And that's one instance. I've had many other cases where 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.080 if there was a false confession, the evidence doesn't match up. 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.839 In one arson case with seven dead, my client gave 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:24.400 an elaborate story about where a non purchase kerosene and 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.160 and come back to this hotel and seat of the plant. 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.880 Unfortunately for the police, it wasn't a kerosene that was 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:32.959 used as an excellant in that fire. 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:37.640 Right, And I'm wondering, can you tell me in your 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:42.439 experience what percentage of these false confessions take place with 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:44.880 no lawyer prison virtually. 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:48.600 All of them, and the attorney would generally never permit 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.120 them to engage in the tactics which illicit false confessions. 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:57.040 In most instances, police use some variation of what's called 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:01.200 the read taken, which is a very old, time tested 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:06.440 methods for getting interrogated or confessions. The problem, of course, 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.400 is that it will get confessions from people who are 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.800 not only guilty, but also from people who are innocent, 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:16.920 and they use recognizing technique clams. They want to isolate 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.600 the suspect from any source of assistances such as an attorney. 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.880 They during the course of the interrogation will absolutely and 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:28.000 repeatedly reject any claim of innocence. They'll engage in deception, 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:32.200 intimating or stating that there is evidence of the client's 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:36.800 guilt which doesn't exist. They'll rely on stress and exhaustion, 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.440 and essentially where the person is down to the point 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.000 where they either want the interrogation to stop so badly 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.520 because it's so overbearing and think they can maybe sorted 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.199 out at a later date, or they may come to 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:54.199 believe that their recollection is faulty because of this physical 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:58.120 evidence police indicate to them exist as to their guilt, 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:02.439 and that is key to the integration process, undermining the 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.800 subject's confidence in their own claim unocence. 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.800 Right, And I was wondering too if you could tell 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:14.240 us often police will write down the statement for a person. 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.920 It's something everyone who's seen murder on a Sunday morning 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:21.720 will be aware of. Often the words and not actually 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:25.000 the words of the person who's allegedly giving the statement, 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:26.400 but those of the police. 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.480 How much of a factor is that they teach forces. 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:35.000 On this to integrating officers they try, For instance, they 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.400 have the error in assertion trick, which is where they 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.840 actually write things down wrong, either if that's telling or 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.720 some aspects of the statement. They're time through it a 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.000 couple of times each page, and then when they get 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.360 the client to sign it, they have them initial all 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.360 the changes on those alleged errors to make it seem 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.680 as though he actually read it and understood it and 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:01.320 corrected it one. In fact, that's just their technique. They 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.280 are told, and I'm going right now from the LAPD 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.840 Police manual. Operate on the principle of you did it, 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:10.640 We know you did it, we have overwhelming evidence to 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:12.800 prove you did it, but the reason makes a difference, 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:14.440 So why don't you tell me about it? So they 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.520 start with the assumption of guilt and the work hours, 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:23.960 frequently using a variety of techniques, including actual physical portion 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:28.360 but also psychological portion, threats about the penalties that may 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.520 be involved, or promises about the possibility of bond or 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:38.520 a lenient sentence, and they often will either do it 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.600 themselves or have a client put in actual matters in 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:47.520 the written statement that ultimately he proved to be demonsterly 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.920 faults because they are operating on that information at the 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:52.040 time they questioned them. 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:53.000 In in case of. 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.920 Mission going to go the parson, they believed it was kerosene, 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:58.720 and so they had the clients put it in there 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:00.360 on the tax It was not right. 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.520 So I'm wondering as well. One thing that comes up 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:08.120 quite frequently when we're talking about false confessions and trying 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.800 to explain it to the public is many people say 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.000 to us, well, I would never confess to something I 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.160 didn't do. I'm sure it's something you've heard. Could you 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.360 explain to people why that's just not the case. I 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.280 know you've gone over the methods that law enforcement often use, 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.160 but I guess can you explain to the general public 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:31.160 why their resertion or assumption that if they were arrested 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.960 for something they didn't do. They claim they would just 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:37.160 not ever confess, And yet here we have all these 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.480 confessions that are clearly false. 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:43.760 Well, what happens is, as a masonary they auate the 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.960 individual from any sources support the consumption in a very 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:53.440 aggressive fashion, often meddling accusations, and in getting there a 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:58.480 certain the results of threats about in a placement in beginning, well, 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.600 this is intentionally yeah, in the beginning of life, this 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:07.200 is merely an accident. Be much less. Well, use threats, inducements, 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:13.280 physical intimidation, will feign sympathy. They'll provide moral justifications, such 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.160 as an a rate case so that they also dressed 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.680 like a tart or something like that. They are working 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:24.120 continuously on the weekend the subject's resistance. And of course 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:28.320 some people are more susceptible to read interrogation tactics than others. 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:33.159 That's particularly true of those that you know intellect retardation, 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:38.639 who are compliant or acquiesce in to authority, generally juvenile. 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.320 Yeah, I guess would you include the long would you 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.000 include illiteracy in that? 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:44.560 Yes? 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.800 Yeah, Because in the case we're discussing on curtain the podcast, 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:53.240 the client Kevin Henry is illiterate and yet somehow read 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:57.159 himself the pages and pages of statements and signed them 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:01.240 to be accurate, which seems quite fanciful. Another question I 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:06.040 really wanted to ask you about, giving your years of expertise, 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.640 is what do you think of the prosecutors who take 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:14.240 these confessions to try, often as one of the sole 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:18.639 pieces of evidence, often the only piece of evidence against 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.440 the accused. I'm not sure how much you can say 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.440 about that, but do you have an opinion on the 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.680 other side? I guess who do put someone's life on 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.440 the line and in the hands of a jury, surely 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.320 seeing the same holes that you do in the confession, 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:35.119 I have fairly. 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.720 Strong feelings on it. But the fact that many times 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:41.879 the pastors in these cases are relying on the police, 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:46.119 and in good seats at least initially believe what the 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.920 police are selling them. And of course it's easy to 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:52.200 do that because they are each other's greatest clients. Prost 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.000 furious can't function without the assistance of police, and the 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.920 police are useless without the past purious, so they have 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.520 an offensive to overlook and mistakes and so on in 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:05.000 each other's work. Where a prosecutor has no corroborating to 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.600 his glovenments a statement in comparatory statement, they think under 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:14.000 circumstances that indicate some degree of court and I think 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.320 they are ethically bound. It's a big much harder before 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:18.840 they present that to a jury. 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.719 Most of them do not right, And I was wondering 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.840 as well, again given you years of experience here and 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.840 as again, not to labor the point, but our listeners 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.080 will know. I'm a big fan of your work and 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:36.720 also of the documentary that covers just one case. What 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.760 do you make of the law enforcement officers who extract 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:46.639 these confessions and are there any standout features or similarities 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.800 many of them may have who participate in this sort 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.280 of unethical and irresponsible work. 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.880 The detectives that I have met that engage in these 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:01.119 sort of things, they often commit themselves of the correctness 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.600 of their position, and as a consequence that prepared to 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.359 stretch the truth of our outright lie to pain the 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.600 result that they think the condition of the person they 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:15.880 have determined to be the kilty. Frequently they will ignore 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:20.640 any evidence, physical or testimonial, which would suggest the innoference 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.119 of the client because it said oddous with their own views. 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:29.120 Will they will detegrate important physical evidence simply because it's 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:32.320 not in harmony with their periy of the case. They 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:37.879 will if it's not recordedness, they will frequently falsify their 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.360 claims as to the discussions which took place which were 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:45.960 not taped. And generally, if they have developed these techniques, 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:48.159 it will show up in more than one case over 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:48.920 a period of time. 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:49.399 Right. 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:53.359 Also, I know this is something you've worked on professionally 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.240 and clearly an interest of your own as well, And 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.040 that's something you speak on too, is that how can 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:03.440 we sife gouds against these false confessions ever occurring? And 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.840 what measures should the community be calling to be put 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.399 in place to prevent these things from happening. 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:12.960 Well, I believe, first off, it's so inexpensive and using 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:17.119 to do that. All police interrogations on major crimes should 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:21.479 be videotaped from beginning to end. You're softening them up 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.680 for a period of hours, no prior conversations, and get 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.520 them in the interview room, start the tape and then 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:29.800 take it so that everybody knows what happens, and that 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.760 protects both the police and the clients. I think there 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.960 should be protections for juvenile, they should not be questioned 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:41.400 without the consent and assistance of their parents and lawn attorney. 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:44.720 I don't know about Australia, but here in Florida, if 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:47.080 a policeman is suspected of some wrong journey, if they 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:50.040 are bad shooting, he will not ever give a statement 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:54.240 until his union council is present. But we afford much 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:58.480 less protection to the average citizen. The statement should be 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:02.320 checked against forensic evenance carefully and actually. And where you 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:07.200 have officers who have participated in in proper and course 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:10.800 of technieks of introgation on the past, they should be 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.600 compelled to the leather force to receive retraining. 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:19.440 Absolutely, my funds. Absolutely. Just one final question. You've done 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:23.440 some incredible work over decades. I think I'm just one 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:26.920 of many legal advocates around the world that's been inspired 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:29.400 by your work. I was wondering if you could tell 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:33.880 us finally, what's your inspiration for keeping going? What's your 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:38.639 motivating driver to keep taking these cases? That the odds 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:42.879 are often stacked so heavily against your clients, but your 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:46.159 record and your success speaks for itself. But why do 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:48.720 you keep doing this and what are you hoping is 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:51.120 the long term effect of your work and the legacy 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:51.680 of your work. 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:55.200 Well, the cases I take them for variety. In one 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:59.280 of them, they are intellectually challenging to determine what the 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:03.280 truth actually is, particularly when the deck is stacked against you. 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:07.240 I having somewhat combative nature stuff it serves me well 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:09.879 in dealing with some of the policemen that I have to. 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:14.080 My clients throughout most of my career have been indigen 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:18.399 or without funds, very often without education or resources of 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:21.760 any sort, and it's desperately important, but somebody give voice 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.280 for them because it's not They have no chance of 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:27.840 achieving justice in the system that it's designed today. And 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:31.480 I have a competitive nature, so the challenge is really 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:32.359 quite important to me. 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:35.560 Patrick McGinnis, thank you so much for your time and 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:38.840 for sharing your expertise on the s sue with us today. 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:40.879