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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcottin woman from Gadigl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os It's Monday,

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Speaker 2: the fifth of December.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara, I'm Sam.

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Speaker 2: The International Day of People with the Disability was on

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Speaker 2: Saturday this past weekend, and it was also a really

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Speaker 2: important day in the history of Australian TV.

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Speaker 4: I am the first disabled person as far as we know,

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Speaker 4: to do a sex scene on Australian television.

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Speaker 2: In today's Deep Dive, I'm going to speak to Hannah Divine,

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Speaker 2: star of the new show Latecomers, about representation on screen. First, Sam,

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Speaker 2: what is making headlines this morning?

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Speaker 3: Zara? It was a very emotional Sunday morning for a

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Speaker 3: lot of Australians watching the soccer US go down two

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Speaker 3: to one to Argentina in the Round of sixteen clash

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Speaker 3: in the FIFA World Cup. It has been called the

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Speaker 3: most successful campaign by the Soccer us in World Cup history.

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Speaker 3: After defeating both Tunisia and Denmark and giving the Argentinians

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Speaker 3: a real run for their money. The Argentinians now move

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Speaker 3: on to the quarterfinals, which start in a couple of days.

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Speaker 2: A quick trigger warning on this story it discusses sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: The trial of Bruce Lherman for the alleged sexual assault

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Speaker 2: of Brittany Higgins has been dropped. It comes after the

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Speaker 2: jury in the first trial was discharged following the discovery

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Speaker 2: of external material in the jury room. Back in October.

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Speaker 2: The Act's Director of Public Prosecutions, Shane Drumgold, said a

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Speaker 2: retrial would present a quote significant and unacceptable risk to

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Speaker 2: Higgins's life.

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Speaker 3: Accused Islamic State fighter Neil Prakash has been extradited to

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Speaker 3: Melbourne from Turkey under federal police escort, charged with six

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Speaker 3: terrorism related offenses. Procash will be charged with crimes including

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Speaker 3: engaging in the hostile activity in a foreign state, being

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Speaker 3: a member of a terrorist organization, and entering or remaining

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Speaker 3: in a declared area. Lawyers acting for Prakash made no

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Speaker 3: application for bail and the matter will front the courts

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Speaker 3: at the end of February.

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Speaker 2: And the good news. French referee Stephanie Frappar became the

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Speaker 2: first woman to take charge of a men's World Cup

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Speaker 2: game when she officiated Germany's game against Costa Rica. She

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Speaker 2: was also backed up by two female assistant referees to

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Speaker 2: form the first all female team. She's one of three

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Speaker 2: women on FIFA's list to be a lead referee at

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Speaker 2: this year's World Cup.

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Speaker 4: Hold still sure, let me just pause in my cerebral walls.

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Speaker 4: You way, don't I that'd be great.

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Speaker 2: Hannah Diviny has become the first person with a disability

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Speaker 2: to have a sex scene on Australian TV.

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Speaker 4: I think the real reason you called me unsuckable is

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Speaker 4: because that's how you feel about yourself.

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Speaker 2: She's also an amazing person, a really, really dear friend

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Speaker 2: of mine. So I asked her to come on the

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Speaker 2: pod and to talk about this major milestone in representation

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Speaker 2: and how she became an actor by accident.

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Speaker 4: So hi everyone, I'm Hannah Diviny, and I'm a writer,

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Speaker 4: disability advocate, the editor in chief of this really cool

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Speaker 4: platform called Missing Perspectives, and officially, I guess now I

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Speaker 4: am an actor as well.

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Speaker 2: She is a woman of many talents. It's just the

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Speaker 2: longest list ever and for every reason, because you are

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Speaker 2: the most talented person I know. Can you talk me

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Speaker 2: through how Late Comers really came into your life?

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Speaker 4: Yet that was something of a happy accident. It's not

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Speaker 4: something I intended to happen, but basically I got a

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Speaker 4: random email from one of our incredible producers, Liam, who

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Speaker 4: basically said, Hey, there's a show called Latecomers. It's written

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Speaker 4: by people with cerebral palsy. It's going to be starring

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Speaker 4: people with cerebral palsy. We've noticed your advocacy work on

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Speaker 4: Instagram and we think you'd be great for a read through,

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Speaker 4: which is basically like there's there's generally no expectation that

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Speaker 4: anyone involved in the read through will actually have anything

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Speaker 4: to do with the show and its final four. And

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Speaker 4: then Mad's are incredible director and Danny Long, who is

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Speaker 4: our head of casting, came up to me and we're like, okay,

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Speaker 4: so you're auditioning for the show, and they phrased it

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Speaker 4: as a statement, not a question, and I was like

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Speaker 4: I am, and they're like, ah, yes, because you can act,

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Speaker 4: And I was like, what happens? What happens if I

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Speaker 4: actually get this. And then like a couple of months later,

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Speaker 4: I got an email that was like, we would like

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Speaker 4: to offer you the role of Sarah, and I was like, shit,

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Speaker 4: that wasn't supposed to happen.

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Speaker 2: Not in the plan. But here we are an actress. Yes,

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Speaker 2: so talk to me about your experience as playing Sarah

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Speaker 2: and what it meant for you, what the portrayal, what

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Speaker 2: the representation. I want to get to it all.

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Speaker 4: So this is a huge deal because we and I

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Speaker 4: say we meaning generally like Australia, I can't really think

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Speaker 4: of too many situations where a disabled character has been

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Speaker 4: given the space to like be considered as a full person.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's part of what makes Late Comers

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Speaker 4: so groundbreaking is that both Frank and Sarah, the two

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Speaker 4: main characters, have cerebral palsy. And part of the reason

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Speaker 4: for that is because two of the show's creators, in

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Speaker 4: Angus Thompson and Emma Mayers, have cerebral palsy themselves, so

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Speaker 4: they were able to from their own experiences.

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Speaker 2: So that lived experience obviously then translated to representation like

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Speaker 2: we haven't seen and hopefully we will see a lot

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Speaker 2: more in the future fastly. If people haven't watched it,

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Speaker 2: can you talk about what that actually looks like and

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Speaker 2: then also what that means to you?

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Speaker 4: Okay, So Latecomers is basically a show where to people

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Speaker 4: with cerebral palsy Frank and Sarah, who don't know each

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Speaker 4: other contrary to popular belief that all disabled people must

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Speaker 4: know each other in some sort of monolithic network, they

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Speaker 4: kind of get stuck together because their cares. Brandy and

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Speaker 4: Elliott hook up with each other at a bar and

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Speaker 4: chaos ensues. If you've seen the show, then you know

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Speaker 4: exactly what kind of chaos I'm referring to. But if

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Speaker 4: you haven't yet, all I will say is that this

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Speaker 4: is a show that very clearly explores sexuality, explores relationships,

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Speaker 4: explores identity, and all of the ways that being disabled

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Speaker 4: it intersects with that which is very rare, and I

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Speaker 4: guess like in terms of what it means to me,

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Speaker 4: this is the kind of show that would have been

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Speaker 4: very helpful when I was a teenager. It would have

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Speaker 4: hopefully made it less impossible for me to imagine a

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Speaker 4: future where I got to have those experiences. It would

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Speaker 4: have also meant that hopefully, like the experience of having

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Speaker 4: boys asked me out as a joke, or to know that,

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Speaker 4: like my friends, thought that the only person the only

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Speaker 4: people who could possibly want to date me were of

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Speaker 4: course other disabled people, because who who would who would

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Speaker 4: want to take on dating the disabled person? Hopefully it

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Speaker 4: would have made those blows a little softer and a

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Speaker 4: little bit less terrifying, because instead of like the being

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Speaker 4: a blank page only to be filled in with like

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Speaker 4: the horrific horrors of my imagination and anxiety spirals at

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Speaker 4: their worst, I would have actually had a quite literal

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Speaker 4: frame of reference for what it might look like.

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Speaker 2: And you've now provided that frame of reference for so

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Speaker 2: many young people in this country who are going to

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Speaker 2: watch your show and understand, and for anyone that's listening you, Hannah,

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Speaker 2: and correct me if I'm wrong. But this is the

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Speaker 2: first sex scene of its kind? Is that correct? Can

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Speaker 2: you talk me here?

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Speaker 1: That?

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Speaker 4: So? I have the incredible pre of now earning a

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Speaker 4: piece of television history, which is that I am the

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Speaker 4: first disabled person as far as we know, to do

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Speaker 4: a sex scene on Australian television. That is not something

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Speaker 4: I ever thought I would lay cling to. It's not

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Speaker 4: something that I expected but it is definitely also not

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Speaker 4: something that I take lightly by by any means, and

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Speaker 4: neither did my costar, neither did any of the people

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Speaker 4: involved in making that scene happen. We were all extremely

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Speaker 4: conscious of how important it was to get it right.

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Speaker 4: If you've seen it, hopefully you feel like we did that,

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Speaker 4: because to me, it's definitely a very beautiful scene, and

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Speaker 4: we made some very conscious choices with our incredible director

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Speaker 4: to not just insinuate that it was happening, but to

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Speaker 4: actually make the view a scene with me and us

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Speaker 4: as we explored it, and also not to shy away

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Speaker 4: from showing you that a disabled body, particularly my disabled body,

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Speaker 4: obviously doesn't look exactly how we've necessarily been told a

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Speaker 4: body should look in those types of scenes, like there

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Speaker 4: are parts of my body that have curves where they

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Speaker 4: shouldn't be because of scoliosis, or I've got scars, I've

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Speaker 4: got all sorts of kind of little bodily idiosyncrasies that

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Speaker 4: have been captured beautifully by the camera. And while that

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Speaker 4: was really really intimidating, it was also really important because

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Speaker 4: it's not been seen before, and I figured that if

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Speaker 4: we're going to do it well, we're going to make

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Speaker 4: sure we do it right.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back in just a moment, but first a

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Speaker 2: message from our sponsor before you go. I just want

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Speaker 2: to ask one more question, and it's sure. I've heard

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Speaker 2: you speak about this quite a bit before, and it's

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Speaker 2: the idea that in the past, the portrayal of people

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Speaker 2: with disability in the media and in film and in TV.

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Speaker 2: You know that you grew up only seeing ads about

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Speaker 2: car crashes and that that or the Paralympics, and that

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Speaker 2: was kind of the only two representations you saw. I

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Speaker 2: wonder do you think we're now moving towards the time

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Speaker 2: where we can actually celebrate and you know, shows like

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Speaker 2: Latecomers can actually celebrate and really give space for nuanced

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Speaker 2: relationships and beautiful scenes. And do you feel like that

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Speaker 2: shift is happening.

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Speaker 4: I really hope so, because I think it's long overdue,

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Speaker 4: and like you said, I grew up with that very

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Speaker 4: binary view of disability. It was either absolutely inspiring or

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Speaker 4: the worst thing that could happen to you. I hope

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Speaker 4: that we get to a point where people can I

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Speaker 4: can understand that like being disabled, this so is so nuanced,

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Speaker 4: Like there's moments of extreme sadness and frustration and discrimination

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Speaker 4: and struggle, but all of those sit alongside moments of

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Speaker 4: incredible joy and creativity and like thinking outside the box

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Speaker 4: and being bold and being strong and hell, all of

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Speaker 4: those things can exist on the same day. It doesn't.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be one way or the other.

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Speaker 4: Like I don't want people to assume that I'm sad

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Speaker 4: all the time, but I don't want people to assume

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Speaker 4: that because I'm not sad all the time, I must

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Speaker 4: think having a disability is the best thing in the world.

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Speaker 4: Like it's somewhere in the middle, and I hope that

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Speaker 4: we kind of allow of that to exist fully very soon.

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Speaker 4: But it also feels extremely revolutionary because of that binary

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Speaker 4: of inspirational sadness. Whenever I do feel a moment of joy,

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Speaker 4: it feels like I'm kind of existing outside the systems

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Speaker 4: that I'm supposed to fit into, and I'm very lucky

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Speaker 4: that I've gotten to create like my own boxyste Yeah,

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Speaker 4: but it's taken a lot of work, and it's taken

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Speaker 4: a lot of therapy and a lot of kind of

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Speaker 4: self introspection and all of those sorts of things. I

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Speaker 4: am constantly processing and working with the fact that I

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Speaker 4: will forever be disabled, because as my life changes, the

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Speaker 4: meaning and ramifications of that fact change too. I mean,

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Speaker 4: as a kid, you think forever is like a week,

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Speaker 4: But as you get older, obviously your concept of forever

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Speaker 4: stretches out a little bit a little bit, and then

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Speaker 4: you kind of get to the point where you realize

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Speaker 4: sometimes you have more in common with your ninety year

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Speaker 4: old grandparents than you do with other people your own age,

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Speaker 4: and that's very strange. But it's also like accepting that

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Speaker 4: things will happen for me and for anyone like on

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Speaker 4: their own time. And if I am continually trying to

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Speaker 4: hold myself to enable bodied standard or enable bodied timeline,

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Speaker 4: the kind of being enjoyed by the majority of my friends,

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Speaker 4: my sisters, my cousins, basically a lot of the people

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Speaker 4: around me, then I'm essentially setting myself up to fail

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Speaker 4: because no matter how hard I try, or no matter

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Speaker 4: how hard I might have once wanted to be, I'm

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Speaker 4: never going to be able bodied. So I kind of

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Speaker 4: have gotten used to that idea in so many ways,

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Speaker 4: and now I'm getting to the point where I feel

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Speaker 4: comfortable and to start building my own timeline and sort

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Speaker 4: of ignoring what other people are doing in the sense that,

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Speaker 4: like my life will will still be still be valuable

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Speaker 4: and beautiful and big, even if it doesn't look like

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Speaker 4: everyone else's.

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Speaker 2: It certainly will. And you are doing such amazing work

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Speaker 2: as a friend, watching you grow and blossom, it's just beautiful.

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Speaker 2: And thank you for always teaching me something new every

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Speaker 2: time we chat. So thank you, Hannah, Thank you Sarah.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us on the Daily Odds. If

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Speaker 2: you learned something from today's episode, don't forget to hit

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Speaker 2: subscribe so there's a TDA episode waiting for you every morning.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back again tomorrow, but until then, have a

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Speaker 2: great day.