Speaker 1: I occupy a weird little pocket of the workforce because
Speaker 1: my work is all about well work, between what I
Speaker 1: do as a consultant and what I do on here
Speaker 1: on this podcast. My time in the office or the
Speaker 1: home office is spent thinking about how can we work better.
Speaker 1: It's like that movie Inception, but instead of dreams within dreams,
Speaker 1: it's about work about work about and there's no Leonardo DiCaprio. Sadly,
Speaker 1: it can be a bit confusing and even a bit isolating,
Speaker 1: but thankfully I'm not alone. Lisa Leong is another star
Speaker 1: of This Work Life Inception remake and also a very
Speaker 1: good friend of mine. Lisa started her career in law,
Speaker 1: but decided that, of course she was actually meant to
Speaker 1: be a DJ. You know that old chestnut. She is
Speaker 1: now the host of the ABC radio show and podcast
Speaker 1: This Working Life, where she examines all facets of the
Speaker 1: working world, from how to utilize daily routines through to
Speaker 1: the credibility of research data. And she's recently written a
Speaker 1: book of the same name that gathers all of her
Speaker 1: findings in a sort of field guide for your career.
Speaker 1: So how does someone that thinks about work for a
Speaker 1: living approach her own work life and what are the
Speaker 1: rituals that Lisa has tried out that have actually stuck.
Speaker 1: And when it comes to Korea, what process did Lisa
Speaker 1: use to work out what she was truly, truly passionate about.
Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist
Speaker 1: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. And this
Speaker 1: is how I work a show about how to help
Speaker 1: you do your best work. So a lot of people
Speaker 1: talk about work life balance, which is a term that
Speaker 1: has never really resonated with me, and it's never really
Speaker 1: resonated with Lisa either. Instead, Lisa likes to think about
Speaker 1: it as work life coherence.
Speaker 2: So my curiosity is around a lot of words and
Speaker 2: frameworks like work life balance, where my question is this
Speaker 2: a help or does this hinder us in any way?
Speaker 2: I feel like work life balance hinders me. And the
Speaker 2: reason why it hinders me is because I just get confused.
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, which part is work and which part
Speaker 2: is life? You know, like when I'm reading a nonfiction
Speaker 2: book because I'm interested in it and I'm going to
Speaker 2: be doing an interview about it, and I do it
Speaker 2: on the weekend, do I have bad work life balance
Speaker 2: or not. So I found it hard. The lawyer in
Speaker 2: me also goes, what does balance mean? How do you
Speaker 2: define that? And do you lock it in? Because you
Speaker 2: can't lock it in because every week's different. So with
Speaker 2: that in mind, we were just crawling around for a
Speaker 2: different concept, which is kinder.
Speaker 3: And there is.
Speaker 2: New research on heart coherence which add its essence is
Speaker 2: you may have heard of the heart rate variability if
Speaker 2: you're a sporting person and you know so you can
Speaker 2: monitor your health by looking at your heart rate variance.
Speaker 2: And actually heart rate variance is about variability, like you
Speaker 2: actually want it to be a living, breathing thing and
Speaker 2: you want to have a lot of flexibility in it.
Speaker 2: And so I found it helpful to think of work
Speaker 2: life coherence as being a equivalent to a check in.
Speaker 2: It's like a check in with my heart rate variability
Speaker 2: is you know, how am I feeling health wise? And
Speaker 2: in a way work life coherence is how is this feeling?
Speaker 2: And what can I tweak to make myself feel like?
Speaker 2: I am just sort of living in a way which
Speaker 2: isn't exhausting.
Speaker 1: So would you ask yourself that every morning, like do
Speaker 1: I feel like I have work life coherence? Is that
Speaker 1: what that looks like?
Speaker 2: Yes, I have a morning routine which goes for about
Speaker 2: ten hours, and.
Speaker 1: I want to ask about that.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, well okay, so it was ten hours in
Speaker 2: COVID lockdowns, but now that we have to do things outside.
Speaker 3: Actually it's not ten hours anymore. It's like one hour.
Speaker 2: But part of it is like generally and gratitude, And
Speaker 2: when I am doing my journaling and gratitude, I do
Speaker 2: actually check in nearly every day with how is this feeling?
Speaker 2: Am I getting this coherence right?
Speaker 3: Does this feel right?
Speaker 1: I want to ask something because like selfishly, it relates
Speaker 1: to me what I find. Even though I don't do
Speaker 1: standard nine to five hour day, I still struggle sometimes
Speaker 1: with the guilt about not doing that. Like this morning,
Speaker 1: for example, I don't have my daughter with me at
Speaker 1: the moment. She's with me fifty percent of the time.
Speaker 1: And when I don't have Frankie, I start work quite early.
Speaker 1: So I think I started work at six thirty am
Speaker 1: this morning, and I spent two and a half hours
Speaker 1: on the copy edit for my book Is, which is
Speaker 1: in equal parts amazing but painful. And then I had
Speaker 1: a session with my personal trainer and that was at
Speaker 1: about nine thirty, and then I got back home and
Speaker 1: I did some final prep for our interview, and now
Speaker 1: were from eleven to twelve this morning recording this on Monday,
Speaker 1: and when I was at the gym with my trainer,
Speaker 1: there's just this vague sense of guilt that it's like,
Speaker 1: hang on, it's nine thirty on a Monday morning and
Speaker 1: I am not contactable. And I know, I know in
Speaker 1: my head that it's like, this is totally fine, and
Speaker 1: this is just how I work, and you know, me
Speaker 1: and my team would preach this to our clients. But
Speaker 1: there's still that slight sense of guilt, and I want
Speaker 1: to know, can you relate to that? And if so,
Speaker 1: how have you worked to overcome that.
Speaker 2: I think it's very natural to have feelings of especially
Speaker 2: when you're a hard worker, you know, to have that
Speaker 2: sense of am I using every minute of the day.
Speaker 2: I spoke to someone Rob Cross. Have you spoken to him? So?
Speaker 2: He does great research on well being and work, and
Speaker 2: he spoke about collaboration overload, and one of the things
Speaker 2: he spoke about was he has this factor of accomplishment.
Speaker 2: It drives him and so when he has five minutes,
Speaker 2: he thinks, oh, how can I cram six hours into
Speaker 2: this five minutes that I have spare, So he has
Speaker 2: to sort of watch that. And I think each of
Speaker 2: us have the thing that sometimes is our story or
Speaker 2: gets in the way, and yours happens to be guilt.
Speaker 2: I don't know whether I would describe mine as guilt,
Speaker 2: but I would certainly pack a lot into my day.
Speaker 2: And so it's to just repeat to myself when I
Speaker 2: am switching off, that little mantra that I have of
Speaker 2: I am enough. That is enough, you know now it's
Speaker 2: time to switch off and be okay with that.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that two minute therapy session, Lisa, that's
Speaker 1: very appreciated. Now let's talk about routines, because you do
Speaker 1: have a I was going to say complex, but it's not. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a multi part morning routine which you
Speaker 1: have made habitual. So can you talk about what that
Speaker 1: is and also importantly how you actually made those habits stick?
Speaker 2: Okay, so I think can I just have it's not
Speaker 2: it's certainly not a disclaimer, but it's just this is
Speaker 2: absolutely individual. And the reason why I put that is
Speaker 2: because when I wrote an article on my routines, I
Speaker 2: start ridiculously early, and the news item became everyone needs
Speaker 2: to start really early the morning routines, and it literally
Speaker 2: went that was that was because obviously nobody read the article.
Speaker 3: They just read the first part.
Speaker 1: Ha, I just read their headline. Didn't matter how you
Speaker 1: read an article.
Speaker 4: You just read the headline and then you've got it
Speaker 4: and then it all away. It's like, get up at
Speaker 4: five am, otherwise you're terrible. And I thought, oh, wow,
Speaker 4: that's certainly not what I said. So follow your circadia
Speaker 4: in rhythm. So the most important thing is understand yourself
Speaker 4: and no, are you an early starter or not? I am,
Speaker 4: So I tend to start my morning routine, say at
Speaker 4: five am. That is naturally when I get up, so
Speaker 4: I'm not actually sitting in an alarm or I'll wake
Speaker 4: up before an alarm, So I start.
Speaker 3: At five am.
Speaker 2: When I started this, I think the most important thing
Speaker 2: about habits is start small. So atomic habits or tiny
Speaker 2: habits or micro habits, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 2: And what we mean by starting small is literally do
Speaker 2: one thing and build it out from the time you
Speaker 2: wake up. So you wake up and you put your
Speaker 2: feet on the floor as you are waking up, what
Speaker 2: is the next thing that you're going to do, and
Speaker 2: then that's called habit stacking. So first of all, bring
Speaker 2: awareness to what you usually do when you wake up
Speaker 2: in the morning. When I ask, about fifty percent of
Speaker 2: people will say, I grab my phone. And so all
Speaker 2: I ask is is that a help or a hindrance
Speaker 2: because you might need to look at your phone first
Speaker 2: thing in the morning, and so job done, well done.
Speaker 2: If you don't want to anymore, and you think, oh,
Speaker 2: this is a habit, but I actually think I might
Speaker 2: be better off without it because I noticed that my
Speaker 2: heart races because I have an email from my team
Speaker 2: members asking me lots and lots of questions. Then you
Speaker 2: might say, maybe I won't do that, so I might
Speaker 2: try a different thing. So it might be that I'm
Speaker 2: going to wake up and the first thing I'm going
Speaker 2: to do is just do some catcow stretches right near
Speaker 2: my bed. So I started off because I got really sick.
Speaker 2: You know what, I didn't realize it at the time.
Speaker 2: I was probably burnt out. I know that seems weird.
Speaker 2: I just collapsed basically on a holiday and got shingles
Speaker 2: and then secondary nerve damage. So when I was recovering
Speaker 2: from that, I started doing mindfulness, and so initially my
Speaker 2: morning routine was to do that practice, which was twenty
Speaker 2: minutes at the time, and then I used to go
Speaker 2: to yoga, so that was and then I just got
Speaker 2: used to having a morning routine and now it's like
Speaker 2: morphed into and all singing, all dancing morning routine, which
Speaker 2: has multi elements because I'm always trying different things as well,
Speaker 2: and so it's kind of fun as I'm likely experimenting
Speaker 2: with myself, like at the moment, I've reversed my biological age.
Speaker 2: I'm actually getting younger.
Speaker 1: What how how have you done that?
Speaker 3: No, I was joking. I was joking, but.
Speaker 2: I'm turning fifty and I really do want to be
Speaker 2: a feeling like I am not going backwards as last
Speaker 2: year I started. Somebody told me that, you know, you start,
Speaker 2: you see your life and you're ripening one end and
Speaker 2: then you're rotting, oh down the other end, and then
Speaker 2: it set me on this very negative kind of mindset
Speaker 2: of am I rotting?
Speaker 3: Am I rotting? Now?
Speaker 2: And so I've decided that I'm going to anti rot
Speaker 2: and so I've I've actually changed a bit of my
Speaker 2: morning routine, Amantha. So I am doing a bit of
Speaker 2: personal training too, like not training people, but getting personally trained,
Speaker 2: so that came out weird. So and because I actually
Speaker 2: had a back injury from too much zoom stuff, right,
Speaker 2: I don't And the doctor said, you you know, you
Speaker 2: have ligament muscle ligament, and I call it a ligament
Speaker 2: sandwich and you've got no filling because I have no muscle.
Speaker 2: And so I'm like, I need to find my muscle.
Speaker 2: So this year Lisa finds her muscle.
Speaker 1: Are there any gadgets or software or tools that you're
Speaker 1: using to track your progress other than obvious things like
Speaker 1: output with weights for example.
Speaker 3: Oh, with the personal training, okay, with.
Speaker 1: The physical side of not wanting to rotch.
Speaker 2: I guess I have my sleep tracking device, which is
Speaker 2: a ring.
Speaker 1: So your aura ring, Yes, yep, you are a I've
Speaker 1: got mine on at the moment and it's told me
Speaker 1: it needs a battery charge this morning.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I'm strict with that.
Speaker 2: I use that a lot to monitor my sleep, which
Speaker 2: I say is, you know, it's pretty much much my
Speaker 2: fundamental block.
Speaker 3: And then I have been.
Speaker 2: Using my Symptoms, which is a food tracker. But what
Speaker 2: you do is you put in all the food and
Speaker 2: then you put in all your symptoms, so you know,
Speaker 2: am I have I got a headache today? Or you
Speaker 2: know which part of my body is feeling a bit?
Speaker 2: And you know, do I have a frog in my
Speaker 2: throat this morning from eating a lot of cream yesterday?
Speaker 1: And then.
Speaker 2: So then I monitor it and then I go, oh wow,
Speaker 2: I really should stop doing that.
Speaker 3: And then what else? So what else do I do?
Speaker 3: What else do I do?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Well, with the time blocking my calendar, then I have
Speaker 2: a pretty good feel for what was the balance in
Speaker 2: my day and what was the effect on everything as well?
Speaker 1: Because you color code? Is that right?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah?
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that?
Speaker 2: Okay, so if you look at my calendar you could
Speaker 2: be frightened because every hour is accounted for. Say it
Speaker 2: looks scary, however the color codes make it okay. So
Speaker 2: blue is actually kind of space in my calendar, but
Speaker 2: because I've scheduled it in, it's just got a block
Speaker 2: of space. And so the block of space could be
Speaker 2: transit and I commute by e bike, So all of
Speaker 2: those beautiful blue blocks in my diary are actually me
Speaker 2: enjoying my bike ride as I'm going between events or
Speaker 2: between activities. So that's blue there's a lot of blue
Speaker 2: in my calendar. Actually there's a lot of other things,
Speaker 2: and then ABC, so that's orange, so you know, I'll know, okay,
Speaker 2: I've got these interviews, and so my eye is now
Speaker 2: accustomed to knowing, you know, where the interviews are in
Speaker 2: my diary because it's orange. And then the book was red,
Speaker 2: so you know I had red there. And then yellow
Speaker 2: is like social activities. So there was not a lot
Speaker 2: of yellow in my diary at one point, but now
Speaker 2: there's more yellow. And then sometimes there's too much yellow, Amantha,
Speaker 2: so Lisa needs to tone it down.
Speaker 3: So that's an example.
Speaker 2: And then different projects might have different colors or they
Speaker 2: I am running out of colors, and my Google calendar,
Speaker 2: I must say, so.
Speaker 3: We have a few duplicates.
Speaker 1: That's funny. I use color coding so I time block,
Speaker 1: but not as extreme as you so, but I do
Speaker 1: love using colors just so I can look at the
Speaker 1: week and get a set as to am I like
Speaker 1: putting enough energy into the things that matter to me?
Speaker 1: So I use it as a bit of a check
Speaker 1: for that, and also just thinking about what kind of
Speaker 1: energy am I going to need for the day. So
Speaker 1: the main activities that don't go to the default color,
Speaker 1: which is a sort of a soft pastor purple is
Speaker 1: podcast interviews, so they are in blue. And what I
Speaker 1: call delivery, which generally is keynote speaking, whether that be
Speaker 1: virtual or something to get back into face to face,
Speaker 1: which acquires a different kind of energy. And then also
Speaker 1: sales meeting. So part of my job is sales or
Speaker 1: business development, and I like to know that I'm just
Speaker 1: doing regular activity with that because that obviously feeds into inventory. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's proactive. So they're the things that I color code
Speaker 1: at the moment, and I find that really very useful.
Speaker 1: Like given I am a time blocker or a time
Speaker 1: boxer like you, but I like what you've done in
Speaker 1: terms of color coding non work activities to see if
Speaker 1: you're almost having enough time for replenishment and rejuvenation and
Speaker 1: those sorts of things.
Speaker 2: So, and it means that meetings don't go in there
Speaker 2: over the top of a space that I really need. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: And it's about how do you prioritize things as well.
Speaker 2: So let's say you've decided, okay, so I really do
Speaker 2: you know health is the most important thing, family is
Speaker 2: the most important thing. Then I will go into my
Speaker 2: diary and make sure that they go in first, and
Speaker 2: then everything actually goes around that.
Speaker 3: So in my anti.
Speaker 2: Rotting phase, I you know, doctor appointments are really important
Speaker 2: and don't they just get you know, delayed when you're
Speaker 2: not prioritizing health. So they go in first, and then
Speaker 2: around that at you know, then I'll start scheduling other
Speaker 2: things because I mean I can because I have control
Speaker 2: over my diary. So there is an autonomy thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: one of my questions is, you know, how much autonomy
Speaker 2: do you have? And I still believe, and this is
Speaker 2: what I call a compassionate challenge, that you probably have
Speaker 2: more autonomy than you think. So this idea of job crafting,
Speaker 2: so you can cognitively craft, you can relationship craft, and
Speaker 2: you can task craft. If you look at those dimensions
Speaker 2: and you think, actually, how much budge do I have
Speaker 2: and you know, do I need to have a conversation
Speaker 2: with my manager around it? I think that you might
Speaker 2: have a little bit more sway than you think if
Speaker 2: you can align it to the greater goals and the objectives.
Speaker 1: Especially Okay, we will be back with Lisa soon hearing
Speaker 1: about her shutdown richel that she does with her whole
Speaker 1: family and so how she figured out what she was
Speaker 1: really passionate about and wanted to pursue in her career.
Speaker 1: And also, if you're enjoying this episode, maybe you might
Speaker 1: want to share it with a friend that you think
Speaker 1: it would be useful for. So to do that, just
Speaker 1: go to the little share icon wherever you are listening
Speaker 1: to this podcast from click on it and share it
Speaker 1: with someone that you think might find it useful. Now
Speaker 1: you have what I think you refer to as a
Speaker 1: shutdown ritual that you do with your family. Can you
Speaker 1: tell me about that?
Speaker 2: At dinner time when we all sit together, we do
Speaker 2: a practice that I heard from Penny Lacasso, our friend
Speaker 2: in common, and she did it with her son. And
Speaker 2: it's called rose, bud thorne. And so you nominate at
Speaker 2: the end of each day. What is something that happened
Speaker 2: which was really good. That's the rose, what's something you're.
Speaker 3: Looking forward to? The bud?
Speaker 2: And the thorn is something less than good that happened
Speaker 2: in your day that you want to share. And when
Speaker 2: I first suggested it to my now teenage daughter, I
Speaker 2: was wondering whether she would want to do it at all,
Speaker 2: but she loves it, and she often when we sit down,
Speaker 2: she'll say rosebud Thorn and then we'll each nominate it.
Speaker 2: And it's a really nice way to catch up and
Speaker 2: rather than saying how's your day?
Speaker 3: Good? Hello? Any want that mother, I'm run in front
Speaker 3: of you. I'll see you on TikTok.
Speaker 1: One of the things you talk about in your book
Speaker 1: this working life, is not letting your work identity define you.
Speaker 1: And I could really relate to the struggle that you
Speaker 1: found with this because I have definitely let my work
Speaker 1: identity define me. So I wanted to know how did
Speaker 1: you stop this from happening.
Speaker 2: When I studied at the Australian Film, Television and Radio School,
Speaker 2: so this was two thousand and three, I was trained
Speaker 2: as a lawyer and so I was coming quite late
Speaker 2: to radio.
Speaker 3: I did the radio program, so I would have been.
Speaker 2: Saying about thirty two years of age, and the head
Speaker 2: of radio, Steve O'Hearn, just gave us this amazing.
Speaker 3: Piece of advice.
Speaker 2: He said, who will you be when the on air
Speaker 2: light switches off? So the on air light represents when
Speaker 2: you're recording or when you're broadcasting on air, And we
Speaker 2: were all doing the commercial radio program at afters and
Speaker 2: so you know, we were going to be setting off
Speaker 2: into the world to become radio DJs. And in radio particularly,
Speaker 2: you know, you can become your persona. An example of
Speaker 2: that is in SAFM. I mean, I had a persona
Speaker 2: called leth Or Lisa, and so you know, it's and
Speaker 2: I was kind of a Z Lifts celebrity, so people
Speaker 2: definitely know me, and so you can get a little.
Speaker 3: Bit hooked into that.
Speaker 2: And so it was a really precient cautionary reminder and
Speaker 2: so I just always kept that with me. So it's
Speaker 2: very grounding to think, you know, this is a role.
Speaker 2: I'm doing this for now, and then you know, one
Speaker 2: day I may pass the baton onto another and for
Speaker 2: this time, I'm going to be really present and then
Speaker 2: really enjoy it. But I'm not going to make it
Speaker 2: become my whole identity so that I'm leth Or Lisa
Speaker 2: on SAFM, you know.
Speaker 1: Or.
Speaker 3: Whatever my current role is.
Speaker 2: So it's just reminding myself about that, and I always
Speaker 2: hear it in my head.
Speaker 1: Now. Something that people often ask when when someone is
Speaker 1: struggling with you know, what, what even is my identity?
Speaker 1: What should I be doing for work? Is they say, well,
Speaker 1: what are your passions about? And I love the life
Speaker 1: flow exercise that you describe in the book to uncover
Speaker 1: what you're passionate about. Can you can you describe that
Speaker 1: exercise and what that was like for you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the life flow exercise came to me initially
Speaker 2: as a happiness graph, and I completely thought I made
Speaker 2: this up myself, Amantha. But then I've fed out more
Speaker 2: good things that I had innovated, something that actually was
Speaker 2: in existence before and during and after I came up
Speaker 2: with the happiness graph. Many people call it the lifeline exercise,
Speaker 2: and in the book we call it the life flow
Speaker 2: exercise because it was kind of more about ebbs and
Speaker 2: flows of life. So what it is is on the
Speaker 2: vertical line, you're like, this is as subjective kind of
Speaker 2: happiness or I guess positive and negative experiences. That's on
Speaker 2: the vertical, and then on the horizontal it's as far
Speaker 2: back as you can remember too today and maybe grouping
Speaker 2: it in terms of five years or whatever increments are
Speaker 2: appropriate for your age. And then you subjectively will map
Speaker 2: out the peaks and the troughs of your life, and
Speaker 2: then you take a step back and you look at
Speaker 2: for each.
Speaker 3: Peak, what made it a peak. Who was I with?
Speaker 2: What was I doing? Was I experiencing? And then saying
Speaker 2: with the troughs, maybe even thinking about what was going
Speaker 2: on in that era at that time, and then really
Speaker 2: looking for those themes.
Speaker 3: The reason why it's.
Speaker 2: Useful is because then you with this hindsight, you can
Speaker 2: start to see, oh, I see a pattern for what
Speaker 2: makes something a peak or flow experience for me? I
Speaker 2: can see in the troughs that you know something is
Speaker 2: coming out. I'll give you an example. So I was
Speaker 2: in law.
Speaker 3: I was loving what I was doing.
Speaker 2: It was in London. I was an e commerce lawyer.
Speaker 2: But the Internet bubble burst, so I got sort of
Speaker 2: stuck in these airless rooms and it became very demoralizing.
Speaker 2: So I said to myself, look, money isn't everything. I
Speaker 2: need to go for something which is more meaningful to me,
Speaker 2: maybe talking about that passion side that you had intimated
Speaker 2: just before. And then so I've redesigned myself. I became
Speaker 2: a hospital radio presenter.
Speaker 3: I decided that, oh my gosh, this is it. I've
Speaker 3: got to become a radio DJ.
Speaker 2: And we skipped forward to you know, when I got
Speaker 2: into Afters and it was definitely a peak experience. Now
Speaker 2: here's the thing. Actually, when I was starting to do
Speaker 2: commercial radio, I would be on the air for six
Speaker 2: hours and I would actually come out and sometimes I
Speaker 2: would cry, what wow? And this was my dream job?
Speaker 2: And so doing the Happiness Scratch helped me to identify
Speaker 2: here's the Rubamantha. When I was doing those six hour shifts,
Speaker 2: I was actually on the weekends, and I happened to
Speaker 2: be by myself in an airless, windowless room, speaking to myself.
Speaker 2: And because I'm a people person, that's why I used
Speaker 2: to cry. And so it wasn't about which industry I
Speaker 2: was in. It was actually about am I collaborating? Am
Speaker 2: I surrounded with people? I love doing things together that
Speaker 2: create a better hole? Right, And so that has helped
Speaker 2: me in sort of saying yes to projects or maybe
Speaker 2: even pivots in my career to know that whatever I do,
Speaker 2: it needs to be with other people and it needs
Speaker 2: to be very creative. And you know, airless, windowless rooms
Speaker 2: are not very good for me by myself.
Speaker 3: So if there's other people there, that's all fine.
Speaker 1: This might get a bit smelly, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: And you know I don't like even I don't like
Speaker 2: talking to myself.
Speaker 3: Even I get sick in my own voice.
Speaker 1: How very humble of you. Now when we're talking about purpose,
Speaker 1: I think something that relates to purpose is values, And
Speaker 1: I'd love to know how did you figure out what
Speaker 1: your values were?
Speaker 2: I think my personal values probably have changed a lot
Speaker 2: over time, and in fact, my twenty one year old
Speaker 2: self would value not doing values. So you know, all
Speaker 2: this introspection and existential crisis of course comes.
Speaker 3: Later in life. So I mean over time.
Speaker 2: I think you stress tests your values through life, right,
Speaker 2: And so even doing something like a lifeflow exercise, when
Speaker 2: I was looking at my peaks and troughs, it became
Speaker 2: apparent Oh okay, so this is probably a pretty core value.
Speaker 3: So one of them is freedom. And what do I
Speaker 3: mean by freedom?
Speaker 2: What comes out in different ways, but certainly at work
Speaker 2: it's quite a lot of autonomy.
Speaker 3: And even when I.
Speaker 2: Was working in large institutions, you know, like the ABC
Speaker 2: or big law firms, which I loved, even then I
Speaker 2: had crafted a role or I definitely blossomed in roles
Speaker 2: where I had a fair degree of autonomy. Even when
Speaker 2: I was a first year lawyer. You know, I would
Speaker 2: be client facing and I would actually already have quite
Speaker 2: a bit of autonomy. So I think understanding that that
Speaker 2: is a core value and that when I feel constrained,
Speaker 2: I'm not my best self.
Speaker 3: But how do you.
Speaker 1: Figure out your values? And I mean I asked this
Speaker 1: from a place of I feel like I think about
Speaker 1: values a lot, but sometimes I really struggle to land
Speaker 1: on what are my values and what makes me unique?
Speaker 1: Like I hear a value like freedom, and the psychologist
Speaker 1: in me thinks, well, yeah, autonomy is a fundamental motivator
Speaker 1: for every huge human being. So how did you figure
Speaker 1: out your specific values? Was there a test? Was there
Speaker 1: a process that you went through?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So there are different ways to come up with values.
Speaker 2: And we really love the approach of Greta Bradman, who
Speaker 2: is our expert in the book on Values, And I
Speaker 2: think I love her.
Speaker 3: Approach because it's really practical.
Speaker 2: And so values I think come out of prioritization as well.
Speaker 2: So as you say, you know, you can look at
Speaker 2: a list of values, and Greta used as a list,
Speaker 2: so she has, you know, a list of fifty odd values.
Speaker 2: And I found it helpful to go through that general
Speaker 2: list and the first thing to do is just to
Speaker 2: strike out the ones that you're like, oh, that's not me. So,
Speaker 2: you know, looking at some of the values, I don't
Speaker 2: know whether I think hedonism is a value, wealth is
Speaker 2: a value.
Speaker 3: Then we've got.
Speaker 2: Freedom pretty general, but some are more applicable than others.
Speaker 2: So go with the ones that are definitely not used,
Speaker 2: so you strike them out first. Now to the list
Speaker 2: of fifty, then you may have forty. So you keep
Speaker 2: on going through this process. And what I love about
Speaker 2: it is it's not about getting the right answer, because
Speaker 2: it's more about what does this mean? And what am
Speaker 2: I thinking about when I read the word freedom or
Speaker 2: wealth or whatever the word is, You know, what does
Speaker 2: it mean to me? Because actually it's just a process
Speaker 2: for I don't know, just testing yourself and testing yourself
Speaker 2: in terms of going, hey, I wonder what would happen
Speaker 2: if I tried this value.
Speaker 3: On for size.
Speaker 2: And then you get your list and then what you're
Speaker 2: aiming at is to try and hone it down to
Speaker 2: five values. And I feel like it's a really good
Speaker 2: opportunity to have a chat with someone who knows you
Speaker 2: well and maybe sort of say, oh, if I was
Speaker 2: going to personalize this value, what might that look like?
Speaker 2: I mean, one value I've been playing around with, Amantha
Speaker 2: is creativity and curiosity. So I am innately curious. That
Speaker 2: is my driver for most things. But there's a slight
Speaker 2: sense of novelty that I like as well, So I
Speaker 2: enjoy beginner's mind, and so I was playing around for
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks about whether novelty is actually my
Speaker 2: value or you know, what does that mean? Does that
Speaker 2: mean that I need to think more carefully about having
Speaker 2: people who are finishes around me?
Speaker 3: So I like the start means.
Speaker 2: Trying on for size, and then, like all things, I
Speaker 2: think the rule is to hold these things lightly Amantha.
Speaker 1: Now you mentioned that collaboration is something that you love,
Speaker 1: and I want to know when you first start a
Speaker 1: project with someone else or a group of people, what's
Speaker 1: the first thing that you want to know about that
Speaker 1: person or people.
Speaker 2: When I'm working with someone, I go to superpowers pretty quickly.
Speaker 2: So my fundamental philosophy is that, you know, I look
Speaker 2: for the best in people, and that people want to
Speaker 2: do a good job, and they want to be in
Speaker 2: flow and they want to be feeling like they're doing
Speaker 2: their best work and reaching their highest potential. And the
Speaker 2: way in there is to be quite explicit about superpowers
Speaker 2: and maybe even helping them find their superpowers. We each
Speaker 2: tip our superpowers in the pot and support each other
Speaker 2: to do our best work, and therefore it's fun and
Speaker 2: therefore it you know, energetic, and we also help each other,
Speaker 2: you know, with the shadow side as well. But if
Speaker 2: you're playing to your strengths and throwing that in the pot,
Speaker 2: then it just feels like it's joyful, right, and then
Speaker 2: that just and then beautiful things happen.
Speaker 1: So is a superpower just like a strength.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a strength, but it's so unique to you
Speaker 2: that it becomes a superpower.
Speaker 1: So what's an example of that for you?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 2: A superpower for me is probably this finding the sunshine
Speaker 2: in others. Underpinning that is this innate curiosity and you know, empathy.
Speaker 3: What about you?
Speaker 1: Well, what about me? What's one of my superpowers? Well?
Speaker 1: I did just want to ask, and maybe, uh, this
Speaker 1: is because curiosity is the value of mine as well.
Speaker 1: How did you uncover that that that's your superpower?
Speaker 2: So the life flow exercise helps a little bit with
Speaker 2: reflection on you know, when I'm at my best, what
Speaker 2: am I tipping in? And then that attitude of if
Speaker 2: every day is a lab day when have I used
Speaker 2: my superpower and what has been the result? And if
Speaker 2: the result is wow, that was such a joyful experience,
Speaker 2: then you're onto the right thing, you know. So, for example,
Speaker 2: you know, writing this book with a co author, Monique Ross,
Speaker 2: when we are in flow, it's when we are fundamentally
Speaker 2: throwing in our superpowers and helping each other do that.
Speaker 2: And so for me, another superpower of mine is this
Speaker 2: sort of creativity and so she has allowed me. So
Speaker 2: she's very structured, but within that she gave me enough
Speaker 2: flexibility that I could just throw in those crazy ideas
Speaker 2: and then we would help each other sort of develop those.
Speaker 3: So that's how we would share those superpowers. Did that
Speaker 3: make sense?
Speaker 1: It did? It did. It's funny when I think of you,
Speaker 1: I feel like one of your superpowers is being like
Speaker 1: a little energizer bunny, and like adding that as an
Speaker 1: ingredient to a project, like just the energy that you
Speaker 1: bring I think makes you quite unique. The level of energy.
Speaker 1: Does that resonate with you? Yes?
Speaker 2: And that's a really interesting point because you can also
Speaker 2: do superpowers for projects. And in one of my last projects,
Speaker 2: we helped each other develop our superpowers as a kind
Speaker 2: of team exercise and getting to know you.
Speaker 3: We knew each other.
Speaker 2: A little bit, and because I was leading the project,
Speaker 2: they gave me the superpower of atomic north Star and
Speaker 2: so that is like that power. They're little power punch
Speaker 2: and the north Star because I was kind of leading it.
Speaker 2: So that's an example of how you can personalize the
Speaker 2: superpowers and have fun. And then we did team cards,
Speaker 2: so you do them like player cards or like a
Speaker 2: Baseball swap card, and you put your superpowers in there,
Speaker 2: but you might even put in different dimensions of yourself,
Speaker 2: like you know, I don't even know what those dimensions were,
Speaker 2: but you choose what you think might be helpful for others,
Speaker 2: and then you can put that in your Baseball swap
Speaker 2: cards as well, so you get to know your team members.
Speaker 3: It's quite fun.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. And now I didn't want to evade your
Speaker 1: question before what are my superpowers? I reckon, I've got
Speaker 1: a couple that come to mind, and let me know
Speaker 1: if this resonates with you. So I reckon, I'm highly enthusiastic,
Speaker 1: like if I'm into something, and that's where I focus
Speaker 1: my energy. Like when I'm into something, I'm very very enthusiastic,
Speaker 1: and I think that I feel like that would be
Speaker 1: a superpower. I feel like that enthusiasm becomes contagious and
Speaker 1: is good for the team. So that would be one,
Speaker 1: and then the second one I feel a superpower of
Speaker 1: mine is making complex science, and what I mean by
Speaker 1: that is science that's been published in academic, peer reviewed
Speaker 1: journal papers, which is often quite dense and sometimes limited
Speaker 1: in its practicality. I feel like I'm very good at
Speaker 1: making that simple and practic for people that I help.
Speaker 1: So they're two. I think that would be my superpowers.
Speaker 2: Can I throw something into the pot as well, let's
Speaker 2: do Yes, you're enthusiastic, and you also execute like you
Speaker 2: get it done and you do it with focus. You
Speaker 2: don't overpromise and under deliver.
Speaker 3: So what is that?
Speaker 2: So it's sort of like you're an enthusiastic, enthusiastic executor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think that comes from being
Speaker 1: quite extreme in terms of conscientiousness as a personality trait. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which funnily enough makes me a very good employee, even
Speaker 1: though I haven't had a boss for like fifteen years. Anyway,
Speaker 1: if anyone wants to hire me, I think i'd be
Speaker 1: really good now for people that want to connect with
Speaker 1: you in some way, whether that be get your new
Speaker 1: book or listen to your podcast with the ABC. It's
Speaker 1: not a podcast, it's a shot that became a podcast.
Speaker 1: I guess what is the best way for people to
Speaker 1: consume more Lisa.
Speaker 3: So the book.
Speaker 2: We have a website this weekinglfebook dot com and all
Speaker 2: the latest is on there. And then I'm on LinkedIn,
Speaker 2: and I'm on Instagram, and I'm on Facebook, and I
Speaker 2: generally am under Lisa s Leong or Lisa Leong.
Speaker 1: I think you can find me brilliant, not Lisa Lapong.
Speaker 1: That was one of your nicknames.
Speaker 2: I have so many, don't I yes, Lisa Laplong. Luckily
Speaker 2: I left that in London with the tax office who
Speaker 2: registered me under that name.
Speaker 3: Believe it or not. Official tax receipts under Lisa Lapong.
Speaker 3: I have them somewhere in my room. I don't know
Speaker 3: where they are though.
Speaker 1: I think I'm just I'm going to be calling you
Speaker 1: Lapong from now. I can't go back to Lisa.
Speaker 3: Some people from London call me Lapong.
Speaker 1: Well, Lapong. It's been such a joy chatting to you,
Speaker 1: doing a full length interview because you've been on before
Speaker 1: and short form. This has just been super, super fun.
Speaker 1: Definitely a rose for me. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: listening to my chat with Lisa. I hope you've got
Speaker 1: some good little tips from it that will help you
Speaker 1: with your work and how you think about work. Now.
Speaker 1: If you are not a subscriber or follower of How
Speaker 1: I Work, now is the time to hit that subscribe
Speaker 1: or follow button, because next week I'm very excited to
Speaker 1: share my chat with Michael Moseley, who you might know
Speaker 1: as the world renowned BBC Health journalist, and Michael will
Speaker 1: be sharing the tips and tricks that have had the
Speaker 1: biggest impact on his health. How I Work is produced
Speaker 1: by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The
Speaker 1: producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you
Speaker 1: to Martin Nimba who does the audio mix for every
Speaker 1: show and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.
Speaker 1: See you next time.