1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: I occupy a weird little pocket of the workforce because 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: my work is all about well work, between what I 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: do as a consultant and what I do on here 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: on this podcast. My time in the office or the 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: home office is spent thinking about how can we work better. 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: It's like that movie Inception, but instead of dreams within dreams, 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: it's about work about work about and there's no Leonardo DiCaprio. Sadly, 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: it can be a bit confusing and even a bit isolating, 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: but thankfully I'm not alone. Lisa Leong is another star 10 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: of This Work Life Inception remake and also a very 11 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: good friend of mine. Lisa started her career in law, 12 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: but decided that, of course she was actually meant to 13 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: be a DJ. You know that old chestnut. She is 14 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: now the host of the ABC radio show and podcast 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: This Working Life, where she examines all facets of the 16 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: working world, from how to utilize daily routines through to 17 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: the credibility of research data. And she's recently written a 18 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: book of the same name that gathers all of her 19 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: findings in a sort of field guide for your career. 20 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: So how does someone that thinks about work for a 21 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: living approach her own work life and what are the 22 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: rituals that Lisa has tried out that have actually stuck. 23 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: And when it comes to Korea, what process did Lisa 24 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: use to work out what she was truly, truly passionate about. 25 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist 26 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. And this 27 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: is how I work a show about how to help 28 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: you do your best work. So a lot of people 29 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: talk about work life balance, which is a term that 30 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: has never really resonated with me, and it's never really 31 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: resonated with Lisa either. Instead, Lisa likes to think about 32 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: it as work life coherence. 33 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: So my curiosity is around a lot of words and 34 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 2: frameworks like work life balance, where my question is this 35 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 2: a help or does this hinder us in any way? 36 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: I feel like work life balance hinders me. And the 37 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: reason why it hinders me is because I just get confused. 38 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: I'm like, well, which part is work and which part 39 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: is life? You know, like when I'm reading a nonfiction 40 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: book because I'm interested in it and I'm going to 41 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 2: be doing an interview about it, and I do it 42 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: on the weekend, do I have bad work life balance 43 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: or not. So I found it hard. The lawyer in 44 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: me also goes, what does balance mean? How do you 45 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: define that? And do you lock it in? Because you 46 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: can't lock it in because every week's different. So with 47 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 2: that in mind, we were just crawling around for a 48 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: different concept, which is kinder. 49 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 3: And there is. 50 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: New research on heart coherence which add its essence is 51 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: you may have heard of the heart rate variability if 52 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: you're a sporting person and you know so you can 53 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 2: monitor your health by looking at your heart rate variance. 54 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: And actually heart rate variance is about variability, like you 55 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: actually want it to be a living, breathing thing and 56 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 2: you want to have a lot of flexibility in it. 57 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: And so I found it helpful to think of work 58 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: life coherence as being a equivalent to a check in. 59 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: It's like a check in with my heart rate variability 60 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: is you know, how am I feeling health wise? And 61 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 2: in a way work life coherence is how is this feeling? 62 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: And what can I tweak to make myself feel like? 63 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: I am just sort of living in a way which 64 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: isn't exhausting. 65 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: So would you ask yourself that every morning, like do 66 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: I feel like I have work life coherence? Is that 67 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: what that looks like? 68 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: Yes, I have a morning routine which goes for about 69 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: ten hours, and. 70 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: I want to ask about that. 71 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, well okay, so it was ten hours in 72 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: COVID lockdowns, but now that we have to do things outside. 73 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 3: Actually it's not ten hours anymore. It's like one hour. 74 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 2: But part of it is like generally and gratitude, And 75 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: when I am doing my journaling and gratitude, I do 76 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: actually check in nearly every day with how is this feeling? 77 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: Am I getting this coherence right? 78 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 3: Does this feel right? 79 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: I want to ask something because like selfishly, it relates 80 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 1: to me what I find. Even though I don't do 81 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: standard nine to five hour day, I still struggle sometimes 82 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: with the guilt about not doing that. Like this morning, 83 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: for example, I don't have my daughter with me at 84 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: the moment. She's with me fifty percent of the time. 85 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: And when I don't have Frankie, I start work quite early. 86 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: So I think I started work at six thirty am 87 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: this morning, and I spent two and a half hours 88 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: on the copy edit for my book Is, which is 89 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: in equal parts amazing but painful. And then I had 90 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: a session with my personal trainer and that was at 91 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: about nine thirty, and then I got back home and 92 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: I did some final prep for our interview, and now 93 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: were from eleven to twelve this morning recording this on Monday, 94 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: and when I was at the gym with my trainer, 95 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: there's just this vague sense of guilt that it's like, 96 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: hang on, it's nine thirty on a Monday morning and 97 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: I am not contactable. And I know, I know in 98 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: my head that it's like, this is totally fine, and 99 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: this is just how I work, and you know, me 100 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: and my team would preach this to our clients. But 101 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: there's still that slight sense of guilt, and I want 102 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: to know, can you relate to that? And if so, 103 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: how have you worked to overcome that. 104 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: I think it's very natural to have feelings of especially 105 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 2: when you're a hard worker, you know, to have that 106 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: sense of am I using every minute of the day. 107 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 2: I spoke to someone Rob Cross. Have you spoken to him? So? 108 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 2: He does great research on well being and work, and 109 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: he spoke about collaboration overload, and one of the things 110 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: he spoke about was he has this factor of accomplishment. 111 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: It drives him and so when he has five minutes, 112 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: he thinks, oh, how can I cram six hours into 113 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: this five minutes that I have spare, So he has 114 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: to sort of watch that. And I think each of 115 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 2: us have the thing that sometimes is our story or 116 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: gets in the way, and yours happens to be guilt. 117 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: I don't know whether I would describe mine as guilt, 118 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: but I would certainly pack a lot into my day. 119 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: And so it's to just repeat to myself when I 120 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: am switching off, that little mantra that I have of 121 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: I am enough. That is enough, you know now it's 122 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 2: time to switch off and be okay with that. 123 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: Thank you for that two minute therapy session, Lisa, that's 124 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: very appreciated. Now let's talk about routines, because you do 125 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: have a I was going to say complex, but it's not. Yes, 126 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: it's a it's a multi part morning routine which you 127 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: have made habitual. So can you talk about what that 128 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: is and also importantly how you actually made those habits stick? 129 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: Okay, so I think can I just have it's not 130 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 2: it's certainly not a disclaimer, but it's just this is 131 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 2: absolutely individual. And the reason why I put that is 132 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: because when I wrote an article on my routines, I 133 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: start ridiculously early, and the news item became everyone needs 134 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: to start really early the morning routines, and it literally 135 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 2: went that was that was because obviously nobody read the article. 136 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 3: They just read the first part. 137 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: Ha, I just read their headline. Didn't matter how you 138 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: read an article. 139 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 4: You just read the headline and then you've got it 140 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 4: and then it all away. It's like, get up at 141 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 4: five am, otherwise you're terrible. And I thought, oh, wow, 142 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 4: that's certainly not what I said. So follow your circadia 143 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 4: in rhythm. So the most important thing is understand yourself 144 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 4: and no, are you an early starter or not? I am, 145 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 4: So I tend to start my morning routine, say at 146 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 4: five am. That is naturally when I get up, so 147 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 4: I'm not actually sitting in an alarm or I'll wake 148 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 4: up before an alarm, So I start. 149 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 3: At five am. 150 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 2: When I started this, I think the most important thing 151 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: about habits is start small. So atomic habits or tiny 152 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 2: habits or micro habits, whatever you want to call it. 153 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: And what we mean by starting small is literally do 154 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 2: one thing and build it out from the time you 155 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 2: wake up. So you wake up and you put your 156 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: feet on the floor as you are waking up, what 157 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 2: is the next thing that you're going to do, and 158 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: then that's called habit stacking. So first of all, bring 159 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 2: awareness to what you usually do when you wake up 160 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 2: in the morning. When I ask, about fifty percent of 161 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: people will say, I grab my phone. And so all 162 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: I ask is is that a help or a hindrance 163 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 2: because you might need to look at your phone first 164 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 2: thing in the morning, and so job done, well done. 165 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: If you don't want to anymore, and you think, oh, 166 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 2: this is a habit, but I actually think I might 167 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: be better off without it because I noticed that my 168 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: heart races because I have an email from my team 169 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 2: members asking me lots and lots of questions. Then you 170 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: might say, maybe I won't do that, so I might 171 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: try a different thing. So it might be that I'm 172 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: going to wake up and the first thing I'm going 173 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: to do is just do some catcow stretches right near 174 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 2: my bed. So I started off because I got really sick. 175 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: You know what, I didn't realize it at the time. 176 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 2: I was probably burnt out. I know that seems weird. 177 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: I just collapsed basically on a holiday and got shingles 178 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 2: and then secondary nerve damage. So when I was recovering 179 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 2: from that, I started doing mindfulness, and so initially my 180 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: morning routine was to do that practice, which was twenty 181 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: minutes at the time, and then I used to go 182 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 2: to yoga, so that was and then I just got 183 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: used to having a morning routine and now it's like 184 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: morphed into and all singing, all dancing morning routine, which 185 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: has multi elements because I'm always trying different things as well, 186 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 2: and so it's kind of fun as I'm likely experimenting 187 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 2: with myself, like at the moment, I've reversed my biological age. 188 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: I'm actually getting younger. 189 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: What how how have you done that? 190 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 3: No, I was joking. I was joking, but. 191 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: I'm turning fifty and I really do want to be 192 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 2: a feeling like I am not going backwards as last 193 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: year I started. Somebody told me that, you know, you start, 194 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: you see your life and you're ripening one end and 195 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 2: then you're rotting, oh down the other end, and then 196 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: it set me on this very negative kind of mindset 197 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 2: of am I rotting? 198 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 3: Am I rotting? Now? 199 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: And so I've decided that I'm going to anti rot 200 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 2: and so I've I've actually changed a bit of my 201 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: morning routine, Amantha. So I am doing a bit of 202 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 2: personal training too, like not training people, but getting personally trained, 203 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: so that came out weird. So and because I actually 204 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 2: had a back injury from too much zoom stuff, right, 205 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: I don't And the doctor said, you you know, you 206 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 2: have ligament muscle ligament, and I call it a ligament 207 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 2: sandwich and you've got no filling because I have no muscle. 208 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 2: And so I'm like, I need to find my muscle. 209 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: So this year Lisa finds her muscle. 210 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: Are there any gadgets or software or tools that you're 211 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: using to track your progress other than obvious things like 212 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: output with weights for example. 213 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 3: Oh, with the personal training, okay, with. 214 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: The physical side of not wanting to rotch. 215 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: I guess I have my sleep tracking device, which is 216 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: a ring. 217 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: So your aura ring, Yes, yep, you are a I've 218 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: got mine on at the moment and it's told me 219 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: it needs a battery charge this morning. 220 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I'm strict with that. 221 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: I use that a lot to monitor my sleep, which 222 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 2: I say is, you know, it's pretty much much my 223 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 2: fundamental block. 224 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 3: And then I have been. 225 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 2: Using my Symptoms, which is a food tracker. But what 226 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 2: you do is you put in all the food and 227 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 2: then you put in all your symptoms, so you know, 228 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: am I have I got a headache today? Or you 229 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 2: know which part of my body is feeling a bit? 230 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 2: And you know, do I have a frog in my 231 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 2: throat this morning from eating a lot of cream yesterday? 232 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: And then. 233 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: So then I monitor it and then I go, oh wow, 234 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 2: I really should stop doing that. 235 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 3: And then what else? So what else do I do? 236 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: What else do I do? 237 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: Oh? 238 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 2: Well, with the time blocking my calendar, then I have 239 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: a pretty good feel for what was the balance in 240 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 2: my day and what was the effect on everything as well? 241 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: Because you color code? Is that right? 242 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 3: Oh yeah? 243 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that? 244 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: Okay, so if you look at my calendar you could 245 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: be frightened because every hour is accounted for. Say it 246 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: looks scary, however the color codes make it okay. So 247 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: blue is actually kind of space in my calendar, but 248 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 2: because I've scheduled it in, it's just got a block 249 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: of space. And so the block of space could be 250 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 2: transit and I commute by e bike, So all of 251 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 2: those beautiful blue blocks in my diary are actually me 252 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: enjoying my bike ride as I'm going between events or 253 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: between activities. So that's blue there's a lot of blue 254 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 2: in my calendar. Actually there's a lot of other things, 255 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 2: and then ABC, so that's orange, so you know, I'll know, okay, 256 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: I've got these interviews, and so my eye is now 257 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: accustomed to knowing, you know, where the interviews are in 258 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: my diary because it's orange. And then the book was red, 259 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 2: so you know I had red there. And then yellow 260 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: is like social activities. So there was not a lot 261 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: of yellow in my diary at one point, but now 262 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 2: there's more yellow. And then sometimes there's too much yellow, Amantha, 263 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: so Lisa needs to tone it down. 264 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 3: So that's an example. 265 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: And then different projects might have different colors or they 266 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 2: I am running out of colors, and my Google calendar, 267 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: I must say, so. 268 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 3: We have a few duplicates. 269 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: That's funny. I use color coding so I time block, 270 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: but not as extreme as you so, but I do 271 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: love using colors just so I can look at the 272 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: week and get a set as to am I like 273 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: putting enough energy into the things that matter to me? 274 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: So I use it as a bit of a check 275 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: for that, and also just thinking about what kind of 276 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: energy am I going to need for the day. So 277 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: the main activities that don't go to the default color, 278 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: which is a sort of a soft pastor purple is 279 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: podcast interviews, so they are in blue. And what I 280 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: call delivery, which generally is keynote speaking, whether that be 281 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: virtual or something to get back into face to face, 282 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: which acquires a different kind of energy. And then also 283 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: sales meeting. So part of my job is sales or 284 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: business development, and I like to know that I'm just 285 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: doing regular activity with that because that obviously feeds into inventory. Yeah, 286 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: that's proactive. So they're the things that I color code 287 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: at the moment, and I find that really very useful. 288 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: Like given I am a time blocker or a time 289 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: boxer like you, but I like what you've done in 290 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: terms of color coding non work activities to see if 291 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: you're almost having enough time for replenishment and rejuvenation and 292 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: those sorts of things. 293 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 2: So, and it means that meetings don't go in there 294 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 2: over the top of a space that I really need. Yes, yes, 295 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 2: And it's about how do you prioritize things as well. 296 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: So let's say you've decided, okay, so I really do 297 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: you know health is the most important thing, family is 298 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 2: the most important thing. Then I will go into my 299 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: diary and make sure that they go in first, and 300 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 2: then everything actually goes around that. 301 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: So in my anti. 302 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 2: Rotting phase, I you know, doctor appointments are really important 303 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 2: and don't they just get you know, delayed when you're 304 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 2: not prioritizing health. So they go in first, and then 305 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 2: around that at you know, then I'll start scheduling other 306 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 2: things because I mean I can because I have control 307 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 2: over my diary. So there is an autonomy thing. I mean, 308 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 2: one of my questions is, you know, how much autonomy 309 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: do you have? And I still believe, and this is 310 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: what I call a compassionate challenge, that you probably have 311 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 2: more autonomy than you think. So this idea of job crafting, 312 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: so you can cognitively craft, you can relationship craft, and 313 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 2: you can task craft. If you look at those dimensions 314 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 2: and you think, actually, how much budge do I have 315 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: and you know, do I need to have a conversation 316 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: with my manager around it? I think that you might 317 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: have a little bit more sway than you think if 318 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: you can align it to the greater goals and the objectives. 319 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: Especially Okay, we will be back with Lisa soon hearing 320 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: about her shutdown richel that she does with her whole 321 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: family and so how she figured out what she was 322 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: really passionate about and wanted to pursue in her career. 323 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: And also, if you're enjoying this episode, maybe you might 324 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: want to share it with a friend that you think 325 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: it would be useful for. So to do that, just 326 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: go to the little share icon wherever you are listening 327 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: to this podcast from click on it and share it 328 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: with someone that you think might find it useful. Now 329 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: you have what I think you refer to as a 330 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: shutdown ritual that you do with your family. Can you 331 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: tell me about that? 332 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 2: At dinner time when we all sit together, we do 333 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 2: a practice that I heard from Penny Lacasso, our friend 334 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 2: in common, and she did it with her son. And 335 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 2: it's called rose, bud thorne. And so you nominate at 336 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 2: the end of each day. What is something that happened 337 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 2: which was really good. That's the rose, what's something you're. 338 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 3: Looking forward to? The bud? 339 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: And the thorn is something less than good that happened 340 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: in your day that you want to share. And when 341 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: I first suggested it to my now teenage daughter, I 342 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 2: was wondering whether she would want to do it at all, 343 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 2: but she loves it, and she often when we sit down, 344 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 2: she'll say rosebud Thorn and then we'll each nominate it. 345 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 2: And it's a really nice way to catch up and 346 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 2: rather than saying how's your day? 347 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 3: Good? Hello? Any want that mother, I'm run in front 348 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 3: of you. I'll see you on TikTok. 349 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: One of the things you talk about in your book 350 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: this working life, is not letting your work identity define you. 351 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: And I could really relate to the struggle that you 352 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: found with this because I have definitely let my work 353 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: identity define me. So I wanted to know how did 354 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: you stop this from happening. 355 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 2: When I studied at the Australian Film, Television and Radio School, 356 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: so this was two thousand and three, I was trained 357 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 2: as a lawyer and so I was coming quite late 358 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: to radio. 359 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 3: I did the radio program, so I would have been. 360 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 2: Saying about thirty two years of age, and the head 361 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: of radio, Steve O'Hearn, just gave us this amazing. 362 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 3: Piece of advice. 363 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 2: He said, who will you be when the on air 364 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 2: light switches off? So the on air light represents when 365 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: you're recording or when you're broadcasting on air, And we 366 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 2: were all doing the commercial radio program at afters and 367 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 2: so you know, we were going to be setting off 368 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: into the world to become radio DJs. And in radio particularly, 369 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: you know, you can become your persona. An example of 370 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 2: that is in SAFM. I mean, I had a persona 371 00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 2: called leth Or Lisa, and so you know, it's and 372 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 2: I was kind of a Z Lifts celebrity, so people 373 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: definitely know me, and so you can get a little. 374 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 3: Bit hooked into that. 375 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 2: And so it was a really precient cautionary reminder and 376 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 2: so I just always kept that with me. So it's 377 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: very grounding to think, you know, this is a role. 378 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: I'm doing this for now, and then you know, one 379 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 2: day I may pass the baton onto another and for 380 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 2: this time, I'm going to be really present and then 381 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: really enjoy it. But I'm not going to make it 382 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: become my whole identity so that I'm leth Or Lisa 383 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: on SAFM, you know. 384 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: Or. 385 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 3: Whatever my current role is. 386 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 2: So it's just reminding myself about that, and I always 387 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: hear it in my head. 388 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: Now. Something that people often ask when when someone is 389 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: struggling with you know, what, what even is my identity? 390 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: What should I be doing for work? Is they say, well, 391 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,719 Speaker 1: what are your passions about? And I love the life 392 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: flow exercise that you describe in the book to uncover 393 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: what you're passionate about. Can you can you describe that 394 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: exercise and what that was like for you? 395 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the life flow exercise came to me initially 396 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 2: as a happiness graph, and I completely thought I made 397 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 2: this up myself, Amantha. But then I've fed out more 398 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: good things that I had innovated, something that actually was 399 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 2: in existence before and during and after I came up 400 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: with the happiness graph. Many people call it the lifeline exercise, 401 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 2: and in the book we call it the life flow 402 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 2: exercise because it was kind of more about ebbs and 403 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 2: flows of life. So what it is is on the 404 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 2: vertical line, you're like, this is as subjective kind of 405 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 2: happiness or I guess positive and negative experiences. That's on 406 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 2: the vertical, and then on the horizontal it's as far 407 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 2: back as you can remember too today and maybe grouping 408 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 2: it in terms of five years or whatever increments are 409 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: appropriate for your age. And then you subjectively will map 410 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 2: out the peaks and the troughs of your life, and 411 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: then you take a step back and you look at 412 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 2: for each. 413 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 3: Peak, what made it a peak. Who was I with? 414 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 2: What was I doing? Was I experiencing? And then saying 415 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 2: with the troughs, maybe even thinking about what was going 416 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: on in that era at that time, and then really 417 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 2: looking for those themes. 418 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 3: The reason why it's. 419 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 2: Useful is because then you with this hindsight, you can 420 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: start to see, oh, I see a pattern for what 421 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 2: makes something a peak or flow experience for me? I 422 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:55,239 Speaker 2: can see in the troughs that you know something is 423 00:24:55,280 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 2: coming out. I'll give you an example. So I was 424 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 2: in law. 425 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 3: I was loving what I was doing. 426 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: It was in London. I was an e commerce lawyer. 427 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: But the Internet bubble burst, so I got sort of 428 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: stuck in these airless rooms and it became very demoralizing. 429 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: So I said to myself, look, money isn't everything. I 430 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 2: need to go for something which is more meaningful to me, 431 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 2: maybe talking about that passion side that you had intimated 432 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 2: just before. And then so I've redesigned myself. I became 433 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: a hospital radio presenter. 434 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 3: I decided that, oh my gosh, this is it. I've 435 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 3: got to become a radio DJ. 436 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 2: And we skipped forward to you know, when I got 437 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: into Afters and it was definitely a peak experience. Now 438 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 2: here's the thing. Actually, when I was starting to do 439 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 2: commercial radio, I would be on the air for six 440 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 2: hours and I would actually come out and sometimes I 441 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 2: would cry, what wow? And this was my dream job? 442 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 2: And so doing the Happiness Scratch helped me to identify 443 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 2: here's the Rubamantha. When I was doing those six hour shifts, 444 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 2: I was actually on the weekends, and I happened to 445 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: be by myself in an airless, windowless room, speaking to myself. 446 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 2: And because I'm a people person, that's why I used 447 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: to cry. And so it wasn't about which industry I 448 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 2: was in. It was actually about am I collaborating? Am 449 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 2: I surrounded with people? I love doing things together that 450 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 2: create a better hole? Right, And so that has helped 451 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 2: me in sort of saying yes to projects or maybe 452 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 2: even pivots in my career to know that whatever I do, 453 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 2: it needs to be with other people and it needs 454 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 2: to be very creative. And you know, airless, windowless rooms 455 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: are not very good for me by myself. 456 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 3: So if there's other people there, that's all fine. 457 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: This might get a bit smelly, yeah exactly. 458 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 2: And you know I don't like even I don't like 459 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 2: talking to myself. 460 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 3: Even I get sick in my own voice. 461 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: How very humble of you. Now when we're talking about purpose, 462 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: I think something that relates to purpose is values, And 463 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: I'd love to know how did you figure out what 464 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: your values were? 465 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 2: I think my personal values probably have changed a lot 466 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 2: over time, and in fact, my twenty one year old 467 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 2: self would value not doing values. So you know, all 468 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 2: this introspection and existential crisis of course comes. 469 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 3: Later in life. So I mean over time. 470 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 2: I think you stress tests your values through life, right, 471 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 2: And so even doing something like a lifeflow exercise, when 472 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 2: I was looking at my peaks and troughs, it became 473 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 2: apparent Oh okay, so this is probably a pretty core value. 474 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 3: So one of them is freedom. And what do I 475 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 3: mean by freedom? 476 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: What comes out in different ways, but certainly at work 477 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 2: it's quite a lot of autonomy. 478 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 3: And even when I. 479 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 2: Was working in large institutions, you know, like the ABC 480 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 2: or big law firms, which I loved, even then I 481 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: had crafted a role or I definitely blossomed in roles 482 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 2: where I had a fair degree of autonomy. Even when 483 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 2: I was a first year lawyer. You know, I would 484 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 2: be client facing and I would actually already have quite 485 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 2: a bit of autonomy. So I think understanding that that 486 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 2: is a core value and that when I feel constrained, 487 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 2: I'm not my best self. 488 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 3: But how do you. 489 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: Figure out your values? And I mean I asked this 490 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: from a place of I feel like I think about 491 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: values a lot, but sometimes I really struggle to land 492 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: on what are my values and what makes me unique? 493 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: Like I hear a value like freedom, and the psychologist 494 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: in me thinks, well, yeah, autonomy is a fundamental motivator 495 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: for every huge human being. So how did you figure 496 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: out your specific values? Was there a test? Was there 497 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: a process that you went through? 498 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 4: Yeah? 499 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 2: So there are different ways to come up with values. 500 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 2: And we really love the approach of Greta Bradman, who 501 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 2: is our expert in the book on Values, And I 502 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 2: think I love her. 503 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 3: Approach because it's really practical. 504 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 2: And so values I think come out of prioritization as well. 505 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: So as you say, you know, you can look at 506 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: a list of values, and Greta used as a list, 507 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 2: so she has, you know, a list of fifty odd values. 508 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 2: And I found it helpful to go through that general 509 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: list and the first thing to do is just to 510 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 2: strike out the ones that you're like, oh, that's not me. So, 511 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 2: you know, looking at some of the values, I don't 512 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: know whether I think hedonism is a value, wealth is 513 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: a value. 514 00:29:58,440 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 3: Then we've got. 515 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 2: Freedom pretty general, but some are more applicable than others. 516 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 2: So go with the ones that are definitely not used, 517 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: so you strike them out first. Now to the list 518 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 2: of fifty, then you may have forty. So you keep 519 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: on going through this process. And what I love about 520 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: it is it's not about getting the right answer, because 521 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 2: it's more about what does this mean? And what am 522 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: I thinking about when I read the word freedom or 523 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: wealth or whatever the word is, You know, what does 524 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: it mean to me? Because actually it's just a process 525 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,959 Speaker 2: for I don't know, just testing yourself and testing yourself 526 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: in terms of going, hey, I wonder what would happen 527 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: if I tried this value. 528 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 3: On for size. 529 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 2: And then you get your list and then what you're 530 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: aiming at is to try and hone it down to 531 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: five values. And I feel like it's a really good 532 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: opportunity to have a chat with someone who knows you 533 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: well and maybe sort of say, oh, if I was 534 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 2: going to personalize this value, what might that look like? 535 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: I mean, one value I've been playing around with, Amantha 536 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 2: is creativity and curiosity. So I am innately curious. That 537 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 2: is my driver for most things. But there's a slight 538 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 2: sense of novelty that I like as well, So I 539 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 2: enjoy beginner's mind, and so I was playing around for 540 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks about whether novelty is actually my 541 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 2: value or you know, what does that mean? Does that 542 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: mean that I need to think more carefully about having 543 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 2: people who are finishes around me? 544 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 3: So I like the start means. 545 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 2: Trying on for size, and then, like all things, I 546 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 2: think the rule is to hold these things lightly Amantha. 547 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: Now you mentioned that collaboration is something that you love, 548 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: and I want to know when you first start a 549 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: project with someone else or a group of people, what's 550 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: the first thing that you want to know about that 551 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: person or people. 552 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 2: When I'm working with someone, I go to superpowers pretty quickly. 553 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 2: So my fundamental philosophy is that, you know, I look 554 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 2: for the best in people, and that people want to 555 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 2: do a good job, and they want to be in 556 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 2: flow and they want to be feeling like they're doing 557 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 2: their best work and reaching their highest potential. And the 558 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 2: way in there is to be quite explicit about superpowers 559 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: and maybe even helping them find their superpowers. We each 560 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: tip our superpowers in the pot and support each other 561 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 2: to do our best work, and therefore it's fun and 562 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 2: therefore it you know, energetic, and we also help each other, 563 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: you know, with the shadow side as well. But if 564 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 2: you're playing to your strengths and throwing that in the pot, 565 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 2: then it just feels like it's joyful, right, and then 566 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 2: that just and then beautiful things happen. 567 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: So is a superpower just like a strength. 568 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a strength, but it's so unique to you 569 00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: that it becomes a superpower. 570 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: So what's an example of that for you? 571 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 3: Uh? 572 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: A superpower for me is probably this finding the sunshine 573 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: in others. Underpinning that is this innate curiosity and you know, empathy. 574 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 3: What about you? 575 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: Well, what about me? What's one of my superpowers? Well? 576 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: I did just want to ask, and maybe, uh, this 577 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: is because curiosity is the value of mine as well. 578 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: How did you uncover that that that's your superpower? 579 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: So the life flow exercise helps a little bit with 580 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 2: reflection on you know, when I'm at my best, what 581 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 2: am I tipping in? And then that attitude of if 582 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 2: every day is a lab day when have I used 583 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: my superpower and what has been the result? And if 584 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 2: the result is wow, that was such a joyful experience, 585 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: then you're onto the right thing, you know. So, for example, 586 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,719 Speaker 2: you know, writing this book with a co author, Monique Ross, 587 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 2: when we are in flow, it's when we are fundamentally 588 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 2: throwing in our superpowers and helping each other do that. 589 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 2: And so for me, another superpower of mine is this 590 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 2: sort of creativity and so she has allowed me. So 591 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 2: she's very structured, but within that she gave me enough 592 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 2: flexibility that I could just throw in those crazy ideas 593 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,720 Speaker 2: and then we would help each other sort of develop those. 594 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 3: So that's how we would share those superpowers. Did that 595 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 3: make sense? 596 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,439 Speaker 1: It did? It did. It's funny when I think of you, 597 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: I feel like one of your superpowers is being like 598 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: a little energizer bunny, and like adding that as an 599 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: ingredient to a project, like just the energy that you 600 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: bring I think makes you quite unique. The level of energy. 601 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,479 Speaker 1: Does that resonate with you? Yes? 602 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 2: And that's a really interesting point because you can also 603 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 2: do superpowers for projects. And in one of my last projects, 604 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 2: we helped each other develop our superpowers as a kind 605 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 2: of team exercise and getting to know you. 606 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 3: We knew each other. 607 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 2: A little bit, and because I was leading the project, 608 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 2: they gave me the superpower of atomic north Star and 609 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,760 Speaker 2: so that is like that power. They're little power punch 610 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 2: and the north Star because I was kind of leading it. 611 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 2: So that's an example of how you can personalize the 612 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 2: superpowers and have fun. And then we did team cards, 613 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 2: so you do them like player cards or like a 614 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: Baseball swap card, and you put your superpowers in there, 615 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 2: but you might even put in different dimensions of yourself, 616 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 2: like you know, I don't even know what those dimensions were, 617 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 2: but you choose what you think might be helpful for others, 618 00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 2: and then you can put that in your Baseball swap 619 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 2: cards as well, so you get to know your team members. 620 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 3: It's quite fun. 621 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: That's awesome. And now I didn't want to evade your 622 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: question before what are my superpowers? I reckon, I've got 623 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: a couple that come to mind, and let me know 624 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: if this resonates with you. So I reckon, I'm highly enthusiastic, 625 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: like if I'm into something, and that's where I focus 626 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: my energy. Like when I'm into something, I'm very very enthusiastic, 627 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 1: and I think that I feel like that would be 628 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: a superpower. I feel like that enthusiasm becomes contagious and 629 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: is good for the team. So that would be one, 630 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: and then the second one I feel a superpower of 631 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 1: mine is making complex science, and what I mean by 632 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: that is science that's been published in academic, peer reviewed 633 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: journal papers, which is often quite dense and sometimes limited 634 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: in its practicality. I feel like I'm very good at 635 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: making that simple and practic for people that I help. 636 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: So they're two. I think that would be my superpowers. 637 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 2: Can I throw something into the pot as well, let's 638 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 2: do Yes, you're enthusiastic, and you also execute like you 639 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 2: get it done and you do it with focus. You 640 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 2: don't overpromise and under deliver. 641 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 3: So what is that? 642 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 2: So it's sort of like you're an enthusiastic, enthusiastic executor. 643 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think that comes from being 644 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: quite extreme in terms of conscientiousness as a personality trait. Yeah, 645 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: which funnily enough makes me a very good employee, even 646 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: though I haven't had a boss for like fifteen years. Anyway, 647 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: if anyone wants to hire me, I think i'd be 648 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: really good now for people that want to connect with 649 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: you in some way, whether that be get your new 650 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: book or listen to your podcast with the ABC. It's 651 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: not a podcast, it's a shot that became a podcast. 652 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: I guess what is the best way for people to 653 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: consume more Lisa. 654 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 3: So the book. 655 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 2: We have a website this weekinglfebook dot com and all 656 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 2: the latest is on there. And then I'm on LinkedIn, 657 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 2: and I'm on Instagram, and I'm on Facebook, and I 658 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 2: generally am under Lisa s Leong or Lisa Leong. 659 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: I think you can find me brilliant, not Lisa Lapong. 660 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: That was one of your nicknames. 661 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 2: I have so many, don't I yes, Lisa Laplong. Luckily 662 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 2: I left that in London with the tax office who 663 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 2: registered me under that name. 664 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 3: Believe it or not. Official tax receipts under Lisa Lapong. 665 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 3: I have them somewhere in my room. I don't know 666 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 3: where they are though. 667 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: I think I'm just I'm going to be calling you 668 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,800 Speaker 1: Lapong from now. I can't go back to Lisa. 669 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 3: Some people from London call me Lapong. 670 00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: Well, Lapong. It's been such a joy chatting to you, 671 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,760 Speaker 1: doing a full length interview because you've been on before 672 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: and short form. This has just been super, super fun. 673 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: Definitely a rose for me. Thank you so much for 674 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,399 Speaker 1: listening to my chat with Lisa. I hope you've got 675 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: some good little tips from it that will help you 676 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,399 Speaker 1: with your work and how you think about work. Now. 677 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: If you are not a subscriber or follower of How 678 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: I Work, now is the time to hit that subscribe 679 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 1: or follow button, because next week I'm very excited to 680 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 1: share my chat with Michael Moseley, who you might know 681 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: as the world renowned BBC Health journalist, and Michael will 682 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: be sharing the tips and tricks that have had the 683 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: biggest impact on his health. How I Work is produced 684 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The 685 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you 686 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: to Martin Nimba who does the audio mix for every 687 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: show and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise. 688 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: See you next time.