1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,800
Speaker 1: How I Work is having a little break for a

2
00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,880
Speaker 1: couple of weeks over Easter, so I have hand picked

3
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,360
Speaker 1: some of my absolute favorite episodes from the last year

4
00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,200
Speaker 1: to play for you, and I'll be back with new

5
00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:17,040
Speaker 1: interviews from Thursday, May one. Like many of us, you

6
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,919
Speaker 1: probably spend a significant amount of your week in meetings,

7
00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,600
Speaker 1: But how many of those meetings actually feel productive? Are

8
00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,120
Speaker 1: they driving your team forward or just draining time and energy.

9
00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,280
Speaker 1: Today we're going to learn how to change that and

10
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,639
Speaker 1: turn meetings into one of the most powerful tools in

11
00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:41,960
Speaker 1: your toolkit. I'm thrilled to have Professor Stephen Rogelberg back

12
00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,280
Speaker 1: on How I Work to help us make the most

13
00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,120
Speaker 1: of our meetings. Stephen is an organizational psychologist and a

14
00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,800
Speaker 1: professor who has received awards for his research into meeting effectiveness,

15
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,440
Speaker 1: and Adam Grant has even described Stephen as the world's

16
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,720
Speaker 1: leading expert on how to fix meetings. In this episode,

17
00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,200
Speaker 1: Stephen will reveal the common mistakes we all make when

18
00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,800
Speaker 1: it comes to meetings, how to prepare a meeting for

19
00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,880
Speaker 1: success before it even starts, and how you can be

20
00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:24,199
Speaker 1: the most effective meeting leader ever. Welcome to How I Work,

21
00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,560
Speaker 1: a show about habits rituals and strategies for optimizing your day.

22
00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,959
Speaker 1: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. According to Stephen, there

23
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,520
Speaker 1: are about one billion meetings held around the world every day.

24
00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,679
Speaker 1: That is a lot of meetings, and I think we

25
00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,440
Speaker 1: can be sure not all of them actually need to happen.

26
00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 1: So the first rule for holding an effective meeting is

27
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,080
Speaker 1: to figure out if you even need to be having

28
00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,320
Speaker 1: a meeting in the first place. You know, the saying

29
00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,960
Speaker 1: this meeting could have been an email. But how exactly

30
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,720
Speaker 1: do you figure out if something deserves a meeting or not?

31
00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,480
Speaker 1: Even this is apparently quite simple.

32
00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 2: Well, the general rule of thumb is that a you

33
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,840
Speaker 2: have a compelling topic, and b that compelling topic needs

34
00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 2: engagement and involvement. Right, So there's that two pieces to it.

35
00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,160
Speaker 2: If something is not compelling or doesn't need engagement, then

36
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:22,120
Speaker 2: you don't need a meeting.

37
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,080
Speaker 1: You make it sound so simple. Are there some rules

38
00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,799
Speaker 1: of thumb or different categories of things that we might

39
00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,440
Speaker 1: want to be talking about that we can go Yes,

40
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:33,919
Speaker 1: that definitely needs a meeting?

41
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,720
Speaker 2: No, there isn't. There really is just this general intentionality

42
00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,880
Speaker 2: to step back and say, Okay, I'm putting this together.

43
00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,320
Speaker 2: Who really needs to be there and do I need

44
00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,080
Speaker 2: to actually have this meeting. But let me tell you

45
00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,280
Speaker 2: a technique, right that can be helpful because I know

46
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,680
Speaker 2: you like specifics and practical tips, so let me share

47
00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,359
Speaker 2: one of that you obviously know about agendas, and agendas

48
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,440
Speaker 2: are typically organized by topics. So what I want to

49
00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,240
Speaker 2: challenge meeting leaders to do is to organize their agenda

50
00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,520
Speaker 2: as a set of questions to be answered. By framing

51
00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:11,680
Speaker 2: your agenda's questions to be answered, now you actually have

52
00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,960
Speaker 2: to stop and really think about why you're having this meeting, right,

53
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,440
Speaker 2: it's to answer these questions. So that's a way of

54
00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,120
Speaker 2: addressing one of the things you talked about. By framing

55
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,840
Speaker 2: your agenda's questions, you now have a better sense of

56
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,079
Speaker 2: who to invite the relevant to the questions. You know

57
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,120
Speaker 2: if the meeting has been successful, the questions have been answered.

58
00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,960
Speaker 2: Questions creates an engaging challenge for attendees that brings them

59
00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:40,960
Speaker 2: in and to your question. By framing, if you just

60
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,240
Speaker 2: can't think of any questions, a likely means you don't

61
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,600
Speaker 2: need a meeting. So I think this question based approach

62
00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,880
Speaker 2: can serve as a nice litmus test for figuring out

63
00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:53,480
Speaker 2: whether you need a meeting or not.

64
00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,280
Speaker 1: Now you mentioned that questions will help us figure out

65
00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 1: who to invite. What should we be thinking if we

66
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 1: are the meeting organizer and we're deciding who should I invite,

67
00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,640
Speaker 1: and maybe we're questioning, oh, we're borderline on some people, Yeah,

68
00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:08,280
Speaker 1: what should we do?

69
00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,360
Speaker 2: So it's almost like think about planning a wedding. Right

70
00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,600
Speaker 2: when we plan a wedding, we know who has to

71
00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,240
Speaker 2: be there, and then we know, well, these people might

72
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,719
Speaker 2: be nice to have. The must haves are very clear.

73
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 2: It's the nice hat to haves that gets it's in trouble,

74
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,200
Speaker 2: especially because once we invite one of the nice to haves,

75
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,159
Speaker 2: then we feel pressure to invite additional ones. So the

76
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,880
Speaker 2: general thinking is, let's identify the must haves and then

77
00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,800
Speaker 2: the nice to haves. Let's just have a separate conversation

78
00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,080
Speaker 2: with them. Let's tell them, Hey, we're having a meeting

79
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,919
Speaker 2: around X, Y and Z. I don't think it's highly

80
00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,040
Speaker 2: relevant to you. If you have any input on it,

81
00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,800
Speaker 2: let me know. If not, you know, I'm going to

82
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,400
Speaker 2: keep you in the loops so you can decide to

83
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,480
Speaker 2: attend future meetings if you like. When you do that,

84
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,480
Speaker 2: when you kind of close the loop, in some way

85
00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,880
Speaker 2: for these nice to haves, and you do deliver some

86
00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,440
Speaker 2: quick meeting notes like, they are so relieved, they are

87
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,440
Speaker 2: so grateful that you're respecting their time. So really, I

88
00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,560
Speaker 2: think the exercise is to think of this. I do

89
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 2: think this wedding analogy works. You know, this whole must

90
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,440
Speaker 2: have nice to have. Focus on the must haves and

91
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,359
Speaker 2: the nice to haves. Let's give them a break and

92
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,680
Speaker 2: figure out another way that they can still be in

93
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,839
Speaker 2: the loop. Provides some input without losing their time.

94
00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,800
Speaker 1: What else can we do before the meeting to give

95
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:26,440
Speaker 1: it the best chance of success.

96
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,600
Speaker 2: Well, let me frame it this way. In our research,

97
00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 2: the best meeting leaders appear to have something in common,

98
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,000
Speaker 2: and what they have in common is a similar mindset,

99
00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,479
Speaker 2: and that mindset is a mindset of stewardship. They're a

100
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,960
Speaker 2: steward of others' time. The thought of people leaving their

101
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,520
Speaker 2: meetings saying it was a waste is so uncomfortable to

102
00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:53,240
Speaker 2: them that they act with intentionality. And this intentionality is

103
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,159
Speaker 2: instead of just you know, dialing the meeting in using

104
00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,479
Speaker 2: default calendar settings, right, you're making choices. You're saying, Okay,

105
00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,039
Speaker 2: I'm having this meeting. This is how long I think

106
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,320
Speaker 2: it should be, this is who must be there, So

107
00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,600
Speaker 2: you're just being intentional. And furthermore, one of the things

108
00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,800
Speaker 2: I talk about in my book is this idea of

109
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,599
Speaker 2: a pre mortem, and a pre mortem is where you

110
00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,640
Speaker 2: start to think about what are the potential challenges and

111
00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,440
Speaker 2: problems that could arise in the meeting? And given that,

112
00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,159
Speaker 2: how should I design the meeting? And so it's just

113
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,960
Speaker 2: stepping back and giving it a little bit of thought.

114
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,560
Speaker 2: And interestingly, we act with intentionality all the time when

115
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,840
Speaker 2: we're meeting with important stakeholders because we don't want those

116
00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,080
Speaker 2: people to leave the meeting saying that was a waste

117
00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,920
Speaker 2: of time. But we typically don't act with intentionality when

118
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,159
Speaker 2: it comes to meeting with our peers or directs. So

119
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,679
Speaker 2: this intentionality is just saying, all right, people are giving

120
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,240
Speaker 2: me the biggest gift. They have their time, so how

121
00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:01,279
Speaker 2: can I honor that time? And so are you? Tightness

122
00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,640
Speaker 2: of invites ordering of the agenda, right, hit the most

123
00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,240
Speaker 2: important things first, you know, not the superficial stuff. Right,

124
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,120
Speaker 2: Keep the meeting as short and tight as possible. You

125
00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,520
Speaker 2: can always find more time to meet. But we know

126
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,480
Speaker 2: from Parkinson's law that work expands to fill whatever time

127
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,280
Speaker 2: is a loted do it, so keep it tight, you'll

128
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,680
Speaker 2: get it done. And those are some really important intentional

129
00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:23,880
Speaker 2: design factors to keep in mind.

130
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,040
Speaker 1: What else have you found that the best meeting leaders

131
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:28,040
Speaker 1: have in common?

132
00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,040
Speaker 2: So that's the main one, but then there's other ones

133
00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,800
Speaker 2: that fall from that. For example, facilitation when one of

134
00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,640
Speaker 2: the best predictors of people's perceptions of an ineffective meeting

135
00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,400
Speaker 2: is the leader doing more talking than the attendees. The

136
00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,720
Speaker 2: more the leader talks, the more the ratings go down.

137
00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,280
Speaker 2: And that makes a heck of a lot of sense,

138
00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,360
Speaker 2: right because the leader is supposed to be facilitating. That's

139
00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,080
Speaker 2: their job, right, They've called this party together and their

140
00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 2: job is to get these voices out. It doesn't mean

141
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,720
Speaker 2: that they can't talk during it, but the mean it

142
00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,800
Speaker 2: does mean that they shouldn't be dominating because they invited people.

143
00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,240
Speaker 2: If they dominate, the meeting could have just been an email.

144
00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,880
Speaker 2: So that propensity to facilitate is really critical. And what

145
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,400
Speaker 2: underlies that is this desire to listen, right, to truly

146
00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,200
Speaker 2: engage and include. And then the other characteristic of really

147
00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:27,440
Speaker 2: good meeting leaders is they understand that meetings need an end.

148
00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,600
Speaker 2: Ding So we know meetings end, right, Everything ends, But

149
00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:34,760
Speaker 2: an ending is something different.

150
00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:35,280
Speaker 1: Right.

151
00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,160
Speaker 2: An ending is where you stop three to five minutes

152
00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,240
Speaker 2: before the end and you say, okay, well did we

153
00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,040
Speaker 2: actually decide and for each of these things, who is

154
00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,160
Speaker 2: the dri the directly responsible individual? And what did we

155
00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,679
Speaker 2: not decide? You know, so we know that these are

156
00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,920
Speaker 2: things that we have to discuss at another time. At

157
00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:59,200
Speaker 2: the same time, during this ending, you're recording this key information,

158
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,840
Speaker 2: so you're not a ten can stay in the loop.

159
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 2: So that is another key thing that really differentiates excellent

160
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,360
Speaker 2: meeting leaders from not so excellent meeting leaders.

161
00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,240
Speaker 1: What else can we do during a meeting to get

162
00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,280
Speaker 1: the best outcome, whether that be facilitation techniques that work

163
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,160
Speaker 1: or other strategies that you found.

164
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,640
Speaker 2: I mean, facilitation is absolutely the most key, but you know,

165
00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,640
Speaker 2: there's lots of different ways to have a meeting. And so,

166
00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:32,320
Speaker 2: for example, silence in meetings is phenomenal. The research shows

167
00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,559
Speaker 2: that when people brainstorm in silence typing directly into their computers,

168
00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,960
Speaker 2: they generate nearly twice as many ideas, and the ideas

169
00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,520
Speaker 2: tend to be more creative, right because everyone can talk

170
00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,079
Speaker 2: at once and you're not influenced by that very first

171
00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,000
Speaker 2: thing you hear, so a meeting leader can say, okay,

172
00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,719
Speaker 2: depending on what we're trying to solve, Maybe silent brainstorming

173
00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,920
Speaker 2: could be really meaningful. Again, depending on what you want

174
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,640
Speaker 2: to solve, Sometimes a standing meeting is really a helpful.

175
00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,120
Speaker 2: Standing meetings generally take half as much time and yield

176
00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,760
Speaker 2: the same quality decisions. You might choose to get people

177
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,960
Speaker 2: into pairs before the conversation. What we've found is that

178
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,400
Speaker 2: when you tell people, hey, again, to pairs and start

179
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,120
Speaker 2: to talk about this problem or issue for just three

180
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,679
Speaker 2: minutes and then we'll all come together. When you do

181
00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,400
Speaker 2: that and then you return to the big group, people

182
00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:25,000
Speaker 2: are participating, right, you've kind of greased the rails. So

183
00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,080
Speaker 2: that's another technique that could be super helpful. So there's

184
00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,320
Speaker 2: lots of choices, and that's I think a really key

185
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,600
Speaker 2: takeaway for your listeners is that we need meeting leaders

186
00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,640
Speaker 2: to think about things and make choices. You know, we

187
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,720
Speaker 2: have around a billion meetings a day around the globe

188
00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,000
Speaker 2: and they generally all look the same. That's not good, right,

189
00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,600
Speaker 2: Let's mix it up. Let's change it up and position

190
00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,240
Speaker 2: yourself as a leader as part of the solution, as

191
00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:57,720
Speaker 2: opposed to being part of the problem.

192
00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,160
Speaker 1: Have you seen particularly effective ways to open a meeting,

193
00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,400
Speaker 1: whether it be effective, creative, what have you seen that works?

194
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,960
Speaker 2: So the opening of a meeting is indeed important, and

195
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,000
Speaker 2: the best practice is after you know, three to five

196
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,480
Speaker 2: minutes of just kind of conversation and some quick notes,

197
00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,280
Speaker 2: you go hard on the most important topic. It's also

198
00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,160
Speaker 2: at times helpful for the meeting leader to start the

199
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,200
Speaker 2: meeting sharing what her hopes are for the meeting. That

200
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:26,920
Speaker 2: you know, right when you say listen, I really want

201
00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,640
Speaker 2: everyone to engage. You're here because I need your voice.

202
00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 2: We also need people to disagree with one another, not

203
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,040
Speaker 2: personally but about ideas, right, So starting the meeting with

204
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,120
Speaker 2: some expectations increases the chances of those behaviors happening. So

205
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,720
Speaker 2: that's really valuable. Another key thing is, you know, a

206
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,840
Speaker 2: meeting leader has to recognize that they are inherently a host,

207
00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,360
Speaker 2: right they call this meeting party together. So what does

208
00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,120
Speaker 2: a host do? A host welcomes people, a host makes introductions.

209
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,720
Speaker 2: A host is also sensitive to their own mood state. Interestingly,

210
00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,360
Speaker 2: one of the best predictors the mood of a meeting

211
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,680
Speaker 2: is the mood of the leader coming into the meeting

212
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,400
Speaker 2: and mood actually matters. When the mood of the meeting

213
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,120
Speaker 2: is better, people listen to one another, they tend to

214
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,199
Speaker 2: be more creative, and they tend to disagree more constructively.

215
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,520
Speaker 2: So those are some really key things that leaders can

216
00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 2: do at the start.

217
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,400
Speaker 1: It's interesting about mood. What can we do if we

218
00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,040
Speaker 1: know that the meeting is going to be a difficult

219
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,440
Speaker 1: one in terms of the conversation that we're tackling. What

220
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,319
Speaker 1: can we do to give that meeting the best chance

221
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:30,920
Speaker 1: of success.

222
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,800
Speaker 2: Well, I think I'm going to circle back to what

223
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,640
Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier about this idea of framing your agenda

224
00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,200
Speaker 2: as questions to be answered. So now when you submit

225
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,440
Speaker 2: that agenda, you are signaling very clearly what's going to happen.

226
00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,000
Speaker 2: Most of these agendas actually don't really do a good

227
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,480
Speaker 2: job signaling to people what's the critical matters. So I

228
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,320
Speaker 2: think that that is a really useful strategy for getting

229
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,440
Speaker 2: people ready to go and to participate.

230
00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,920
Speaker 1: We'll be back with Stevens soon and when we return,

231
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,560
Speaker 1: he'll be sharing some of the quirkier, unique things that

232
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,000
Speaker 1: you can do to engage people in a meeting and

233
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,680
Speaker 1: what the biggest predictors of meeting satisfaction are. If you're

234
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,440
Speaker 1: looking for more tips to improve the way you work

235
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,880
Speaker 1: can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains

236
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,120
Speaker 1: tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can

237
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,080
Speaker 1: sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha

238
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:34,800
Speaker 1: dot com. What else can we do during the meeting?

239
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,200
Speaker 1: What are some of the more quirkier techniques that you've

240
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,280
Speaker 1: seen to engage people and get the best out of people?

241
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,120
Speaker 2: So the silent one certainly is quirky, but I'll add

242
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,640
Speaker 2: that interestingly, taking a break. You know, even if you

243
00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,160
Speaker 2: have a sixty minute meeting, taking a three minute break

244
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,280
Speaker 2: in the middle of the meeting is quirky and really effective. Generally,

245
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,320
Speaker 2: it does a couple of things. First of all, we

246
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,480
Speaker 2: all know that people are technology addicted, so that little

247
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,920
Speaker 2: break people can check their phones as opposed to doing

248
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,120
Speaker 2: it during the meeting. Next, what typically happens when you

249
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 2: have a break is after that break, someone will say, hey,

250
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,800
Speaker 2: I was also thinking about X right, Because typically meetings

251
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,199
Speaker 2: are kind of like a runaway train. They get momentum,

252
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,360
Speaker 2: and when you have a break, it breaks that momentum

253
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,880
Speaker 2: and allows for other content to emerge. So that's another

254
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,120
Speaker 2: interesting possibility. That you can play with. The Other thing

255
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,520
Speaker 2: that maybe is a little quirky that works is to

256
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,200
Speaker 2: do some of these voting apps to test consensus. We

257
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,920
Speaker 2: often rely on determining whether there's consensus based on the

258
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 2: loudest voices, and that's not effective. So if we quickly

259
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,800
Speaker 2: stop and say, hey, you know, I want to get

260
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 2: a pulse of where folks are out. We're talking about

261
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,400
Speaker 2: these three things, where's everyone out? Which ones do you support?

262
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,000
Speaker 2: And do it via an app. That's a nice way

263
00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,240
Speaker 2: of really getting a good feel for things and figuring

264
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 2: out whether you could go in different directions. You can

265
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,640
Speaker 2: also use that voting to say do you think we

266
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,520
Speaker 2: need to keep talking about this? Are you ready to

267
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:05,160
Speaker 2: make a decision?

268
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:05,360
Speaker 1: Right?

269
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,480
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of check ins that can happen

270
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,640
Speaker 2: in a very safe way that allows you to be

271
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,240
Speaker 2: a meeting leader that's sensitive to the broader dynamics, just

272
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:16,400
Speaker 2: not the loudest voices.

273
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,080
Speaker 1: I love the idea of voting apps. It also makes

274
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,400
Speaker 1: me think of very large meetings, But what is your

275
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,480
Speaker 1: research found in terms of the optimal size for.

276
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,760
Speaker 2: A meeting doesn't exist. There's no such thing as an

277
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,280
Speaker 2: optimal size. It just always comes down to what you're

278
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 2: trying to achieve, and depending on what you're trying to achieve,

279
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,400
Speaker 2: that determines the size. Now, if it is around decision making,

280
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,440
Speaker 2: you know, once you start passing eight people, it's just

281
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,520
Speaker 2: hard to truly facilitate. You have to be a very

282
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,320
Speaker 2: skilled facilitator to bring out more voices. So that's something

283
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,280
Speaker 2: to keep in mind. If the meeting is more of

284
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,840
Speaker 2: a tell show questions than you know, like a town hall,

285
00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 2: then those meetings can be really large because you're not

286
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,320
Speaker 2: really looking for folks to deeply engage on the content.

287
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,480
Speaker 2: So depending on what you're trying to achieve, that kind

288
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,560
Speaker 2: of determines who needs to be there and who doesn't

289
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:11,200
Speaker 2: need to be there.

290
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,920
Speaker 1: I'd love to know more about those town hall meetings

291
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,000
Speaker 1: because you know, ideally, well, what you said is that

292
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,600
Speaker 1: the facilitator of the meeting, the leader of the meeting,

293
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,080
Speaker 1: would do best not to talk so much. But typically

294
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,160
Speaker 1: in a town hall, the leaders talk a lot. So

295
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 1: what does a great townholl look like?

296
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,720
Speaker 2: We just have to remember what town halls do well

297
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,280
Speaker 2: and what they do bad. They're not for discussion. So

298
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,880
Speaker 2: the best town halls are just short and the best

299
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:45,040
Speaker 2: town halls bring up critical issues and not the superficial issues,

300
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,920
Speaker 2: because the superficial issues could just be handled via email

301
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 2: or you could record yourself talking. So if you're putting

302
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,360
Speaker 2: people into a context where they're just going to be

303
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,280
Speaker 2: listening to someone talk, I mean, just keep in mind that,

304
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,800
Speaker 2: you know, our batteries for that are pretty darn low.

305
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,000
Speaker 2: So keep it short, keep it really short.

306
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,720
Speaker 1: What does short mean? What is short?

307
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,560
Speaker 2: I think most town halls can be twenty minutes.

308
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,280
Speaker 1: That is a lot shorter than most town halls.

309
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,359
Speaker 2: I suspect, Yeah, I agree.

310
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:23,160
Speaker 1: What is your opinion on AI tools in meetings? What

311
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 1: can help us and what can hinder?

312
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,119
Speaker 2: You know, I fully embrace it. I think there's lots

313
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,000
Speaker 2: of possibilities. I think AI could be extremely helpful with

314
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,879
Speaker 2: the scheduling of meetings, finding some good openings for folks

315
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 2: in thoughtful ways. I think AI is fantastic for capturing

316
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,679
Speaker 2: the meeting notes. We've really gotten better at that. You know,

317
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,840
Speaker 2: even the built in packages into Zoom what have you

318
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,240
Speaker 2: does a great job capturing what are the key takeaways

319
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,199
Speaker 2: from the meeting. It's awesome. I think AI excels with that,

320
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,920
Speaker 2: which is great. Again as a way of managing number

321
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:05,400
Speaker 2: of attendees. What I'm still struggling with is AI serving

322
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:10,600
Speaker 2: in any type of facilitation role. So there are startups

323
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,560
Speaker 2: that are playing with that. You know, where the AI

324
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,800
Speaker 2: is putting real time feedback saying, hey, this person hasn't talked,

325
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,520
Speaker 2: or here's who's talking the most, and the leader is

326
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,159
Speaker 2: able to monitor that, you know, then there's AI saying

327
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,960
Speaker 2: you know, actually prompting saying you know that might say,

328
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,679
Speaker 2: you KNOWMANTHD, what do you think? So I'm not as

329
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,119
Speaker 2: keen on that. I want the meeting leader to do that.

330
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,480
Speaker 2: I really do. I don't want to punt that to AI.

331
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 2: Over time, the AI facilitator is going to get better

332
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,919
Speaker 2: and better and better. But I don't think that fundamentally

333
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,240
Speaker 2: changes the need for the meeting leader to be thoughtful

334
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,560
Speaker 2: in the design and execution of the meeting. So yeah,

335
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,919
Speaker 2: I love use of AI definitely for scheduling and note taking,

336
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,640
Speaker 2: though I think it's very, very helpful.

337
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,399
Speaker 1: I'd love to know about meeting satisfaction because that's something

338
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,360
Speaker 1: that you've measured many, many times. What are the biggest

339
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,919
Speaker 1: predictors of meeting satisfaction? Some of which we might have covered,

340
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,399
Speaker 1: but I'm wondering if there's other things that we haven't covered.

341
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,399
Speaker 2: So participation is a key one. Relevance of the meeting

342
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,600
Speaker 2: is a key one. The leader facilitating definitely a key one.

343
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,119
Speaker 2: The types of participation and listening of other attendees is

344
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 2: really important. And then interestingly, one of the better predictors

345
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 2: of meeting satisfaction.

346
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 1: Is actually food.

347
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, having food and meetings seems to make people

348
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,960
Speaker 2: pretty darn excited. But I would argue it's not the

349
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 2: food in and of itself, but food helps people make

350
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,239
Speaker 2: separation from what they were doing before the meeting to

351
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,760
Speaker 2: the meeting itself, which I think allows them to be

352
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,920
Speaker 2: more focused. Food can also elevate mood into a more

353
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 2: positive direction, which also can lead to a more positive meeting.

354
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 2: But yeah, snacks can be helpful.

355
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 1: What else can we do to elevate mood?

356
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 2: Steven? You know, I think a meeting leader expressing appreciation

357
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,639
Speaker 2: and gratitude sets a really key stage for that. Even

358
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,080
Speaker 2: during trying and difficult times, we can always find opportunities

359
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 2: to express appreciation and gratitude. So I think starting these

360
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,880
Speaker 2: types of engagements with those types of reflections can get

361
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,879
Speaker 2: people in a really good headspace.

362
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 1: Hm, I would love to explore what happens after the meeting,

363
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,199
Speaker 1: like what is in our control after the meeting ends,

364
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,280
Speaker 1: to make sure that it was time will spent.

365
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,200
Speaker 2: If the meeting has a proper ending, like I mentioned,

366
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 2: with things being recorded and DRIs being identified, the chances

367
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:57,159
Speaker 2: of action happening is so much higher. So it really

368
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,919
Speaker 2: comes down to that ending and doing it well. You know,

369
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 2: once that's documented, then the leader is very well positioned

370
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 2: to follow up and make sure that these things actually happen.

371
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 2: But so often at the end of the meeting, you know,

372
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 2: people are actually not clear what was decided, They're not

373
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 2: clear who's responsible, so action doesn't happen and leaders don't

374
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 2: follow up. So having that proper ending just increases the

375
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:24,640
Speaker 2: chances of all those things happening.

376
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 1: Are there ways that you encourage people to just keep

377
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: track on this was an action that came out of

378
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 1: the meeting, and so we need to track that or

379
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 1: do we just have trust?

380
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 2: You know, I think trust is great and I think

381
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:43,919
Speaker 2: should always be the lead strategy. But there's no reason

382
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,360
Speaker 2: why the meeting outcomes can't be recorded into an asynchronous

383
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 2: document that everyone can look and track, and people can

384
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 2: provide updates of how what the progress they're making. So

385
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 2: I think that's perfectly fine action to take, and I

386
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 2: think people generally welcome it.

387
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 1: I'd love to know from all the research that you

388
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 1: have done, what have been some of the more surprising

389
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 1: findings that you found in your research. Well.

390
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 2: I think it's always surprising that agendas in and of

391
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: themselves do not improve meeting quality. I think that's something

392
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 2: that's surprising, but when people reflect, it's not much of

393
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: a surprise because so many agendas are just recycled meeting

394
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 2: to meeting. And then what matters more is what's on

395
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: the agenda, right, is it truly compelling? And what matters

396
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 2: even more is how you facilitate discussion of that agenda.

397
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 2: So this idea of just having a piece of paper

398
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 2: with topics isn't all that inspirational. This is why in

399
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 2: my book I titled the chapter agendas are a Hollow Crutch,

400
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 2: because so often leaders think by having an agenda that

401
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: they're a good meeting leader, and they're not. So that

402
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 2: to me is kind of a fun surprising finding. Another

403
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 2: I think interesting finding is to me has always been

404
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 2: this idea that when you survey people coming out of

405
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 2: a meeting, there is one person who says that was

406
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 2: really good, and that person is the leading leader, the

407
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 2: meeting leader. The meeting leader seems to have this inflated

408
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 2: sense of how well the meeting went, and why wouldn't

409
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 2: they right, they are talking as much as they want.

410
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 2: And so this disconnect, though, I think is really important

411
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 2: because given this disconnect, meeting leaders aren't all that motivated

412
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 2: to make many changes to how they run meetings because

413
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 2: they think it went pretty well. So overall, they generally

414
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 2: think the meeting problem is due to others, not themselves.

415
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: How can we overcome that? How can we give leaders

416
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 1: a bit more of a clear idea of what's going on?

417
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like I'm working with this company called Cairos Kairos,

418
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: and it's a Canadian company. They're really cool and basic.

419
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 2: What they do is they've created a solution where leaders

420
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 2: can actually see how they are at running meetings and

421
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 2: then they're given feedback and they're provided with tools and

422
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 2: tricks and tips to address the feedback they received. So

423
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 2: a technology solution, I think is a great way of

424
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: addressing the issue. But then there's lower fidelity solutions as well. So,

425
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: for example, the meeting leader can every once in a while,

426
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 2: survey their people and ask them what's going well, not

427
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 2: so well, and ideas for making the meetings better.

428
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: Right.

429
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: Meetings are shared experiences. Leaders know that people are frustrated

430
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 2: by meetings, so if you position yourself there's someone interested

431
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 2: in solving it. It's a great reflection on you.

432
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 1: I love that advice, Steven. I am so glad that

433
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 1: you agreed to meet with me for a second time.

434
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: You are such a fountain of knowledge when it comes

435
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: to meetings, and I so appreciate your time. I hope

436
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: I've used it respectfully. I let you do most of

437
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 1: the talking, so I did that.

438
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're a great facilitator. I totally feel so, and

439
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 2: that's why I decided to do it again. So thank

440
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 2: you appreciate it, and yeah, thank you for helping bring

441
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: the science to your audience.

442
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I hope you love this chat

443
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: with Stephen as much as I did. There are definitely

444
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: a few strategies I think we can all implement into

445
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: our next meeting. If you want to learn more about Stephen,

446
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: you can check out his website Stepnogelberg dot com. He

447
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: has a ton of resources there to help you out

448
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: with your next meeting, as well as links to his books,

449
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: which are awesome and believe it or not, he doesn't

450
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: make a single cent from his book sales because he

451
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,719
Speaker 1: donates everything he makes from them to cancer research. You

452
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: can find a link to his website in the show notes.

453
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: If you like today's show, make sure you get follow

454
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.

455
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of

456
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: the Warrangery people, part of the cool And Nation.