Speaker 1: Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris and
Speaker 1: on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes with
Speaker 1: the biggest players in television. On today's episode, I have
Speaker 1: Jamie Wiggins, who is a television editor at the top
Speaker 1: of his game, specializing in reality TV. He has worked
Speaker 1: across some of the biggest shows we've ever seen on
Speaker 1: Australian screens. His job is to collaborate with executive producers
Speaker 1: and story producers to make us as the audience, fall
Speaker 1: in love with the heroes, secretly love the villains, but
Speaker 1: overall to be entertained. I'm so excited to talk about
Speaker 1: reality TV editing because it is such a complicated job
Speaker 1: which often is thankless or underappreciated. But also the editor
Speaker 1: often falls victim of being blamed by former reality TV
Speaker 1: stars when they're not happy with the way they've been portrayed,
Speaker 1: which we're going to get to the bottom of. Jamie
Speaker 1: has worked with some of the greats across most production studios,
Speaker 1: but he's currently full time at Eureka Productions, which has
Speaker 1: just produced Holy Moly for Channel seven, Amazing Race for
Speaker 1: Channel ten, but also we will soon see a Sydney
Speaker 1: version of Selling sunsets for Amazon. This guy's a bit
Speaker 1: of a legend amongst the current creators of television, and
Speaker 1: i'd like to welcome you to today's guest. It's Jamie Wiggins.
Speaker 2: No one really talks about the editor because we are
Speaker 2: just a little man in the shadows.
Speaker 1: This show, in particular was by far the hardest I
Speaker 1: have ever ever encountered.
Speaker 2: I've worked on shows before where we do have to
Speaker 2: portray someone as a villain who has a better chance
Speaker 2: at finding a girlfriend. Can edit has an EBB and aflow.
Speaker 1: Holy Moly has arrived and it's got to be a
Speaker 1: lot of plot.
Speaker 2: I think you just develop your style through nuances housemates.
Speaker 1: This week, all of you can be nominated for a viction.
Speaker 2: I think if you can watch it and see the editing,
Speaker 2: the editor hasn't done their job very well.
Speaker 1: Good amte How are Yeah?
Speaker 2: I'm great? How are you? This is good.
Speaker 1: It's so strange because you never really see the editor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it's strange for us too.
Speaker 1: So editing is a word which has been come synonymous
Speaker 1: with reality television, but we rarely hear from the editor.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that is.
Speaker 2: I think it's because we don't really necessarily have a
Speaker 2: very loud voice in television. I mean where editors are
Speaker 2: considered the last scriptwriters in that I show maybe filmed
Speaker 2: one way, we get it into posts, it's edits it
Speaker 2: a different way, so how it was originally shot. So
Speaker 2: I guess like it's hard to put this into words,
Speaker 2: but we are very much part of the production, but
Speaker 2: we're also very much in the shadows. Yeah, we're not
Speaker 2: out with you guys. On the shoots. We get given
Speaker 2: the footage, we edit away vpa away in our little
Speaker 2: edit suites and put out what you see on television.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I've got this really funny story with a friend of
Speaker 1: mine who was on a different show to me, and
Speaker 1: she went out one night. She met these group of people,
Speaker 1: They had a few drinks, they hung out all night.
Speaker 1: We got to two o'clock in the morning, and she
Speaker 1: ended up outside I think like the cw to get
Speaker 1: in the cabs. And the guy that she was talking
Speaker 1: to said, oh, by the way, I'm the main editor
Speaker 1: on the show that you did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and gave.
Speaker 1: This look of like, oh you're in trouble now. Do
Speaker 1: you think that it's a strange experience when you do
Speaker 1: get to meet these people face to face one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: It's the weirdest experience because editing these guys, we could
Speaker 2: be editing them for months and months and months, and
Speaker 2: you get to know them so well, if you fall
Speaker 2: in love with them or you dislike them, and you
Speaker 2: feel like you know them so then when they come out,
Speaker 2: it's like seeing an old friend or seeing someone that
Speaker 2: you're really close to and they're just like, have no
Speaker 2: idea who you are. It's bizarre. It's got like a
Speaker 2: strange kind of I don't want to use the word stalker,
Speaker 2: but it's got that kind of feel. Yeah, anyone that's
Speaker 2: not an editor, I'd be like, if you're on someone's
Speaker 2: Instagram page or Facebook page every day and you're looking
Speaker 2: at all their photos and following their story, but they
Speaker 2: have no idea who you are. It's not what editing
Speaker 2: is like. But that's the best example I can give
Speaker 2: of for someone that doesn't know what it's like to
Speaker 2: be an editor.
Speaker 1: Have you been in that situation before where you've met
Speaker 1: someone after the show and you've been like, what do
Speaker 1: you do? Do you tell them?
Speaker 2: If I saw someone on a promisee that I worked on,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't tell them, because I think it would raise
Speaker 2: a lot of questions, like how do I look for
Speaker 2: me personally? If I was on a TV show and
Speaker 2: someone came up to me and said, I edited you,
Speaker 2: my first question would be, how do I look? Am I? Okay?
Speaker 2: And I don't want to get into that kind of
Speaker 2: discussion with somebody.
Speaker 1: When it comes to reality television contestants. Let's say I
Speaker 1: got the bad edit. What's your immediate thought when you
Speaker 1: hear that.
Speaker 2: I think it's a fifty to fifty sort of thing,
Speaker 2: to be honest, because I've worked on shows before where
Speaker 2: we do have to portray someone as a villain, but
Speaker 2: it's never going to happen that we have to portray
Speaker 2: someone as a villain that's a very lovely person, But
Speaker 2: you can't make the most beautiful, kind, loving person a villain.
Speaker 2: And when ex reality contestants do say they got a
Speaker 2: bad edit, we're never misconsuing anything that they say. It's
Speaker 2: more nuances of music and nuances of looks and sound effects.
Speaker 2: And okay, I'll give you an example of a cooking
Speaker 2: show I did. I won't name the show, but we
Speaker 2: had contestants that were cast as the villains and they
Speaker 2: ate a meal. They gave so many positive comments about
Speaker 2: the meal, but they gave one negative comment that the
Speaker 2: sauce was too tangy. So what we do in the
Speaker 2: editing if their casts the villain is we leave in
Speaker 2: the source comment take everything else away. So I can
Speaker 2: kind of understand people may feel that they got a
Speaker 2: bad edit, but I think it's fifty to fifty.
Speaker 1: You know what. I think it's really funny. I meet
Speaker 1: people who've been on reality shows and they say I
Speaker 1: got the bad edit, and I go okay, And while
Speaker 1: they're defending themselves, I can see in real time them
Speaker 1: displaying all of the character traits that they say they
Speaker 1: don't have. Do you think that people these days have
Speaker 1: a really strong disconnect from who they think they are
Speaker 1: versus how other people see them?
Speaker 2: One hundred percent? I often find myself wondering how I
Speaker 2: would be perceived if I was on one of these shows.
Speaker 2: I think I'm a nice person. I don't think anyone
Speaker 2: thinks they're a horrible person. So when they sit down
Speaker 2: to watch the show that they've been on and they
Speaker 2: come across in a horrible way, I don't blame them
Speaker 2: for thinking that they are ripped off by the edit.
Speaker 2: But we can only cheat reality so much.
Speaker 1: Do you know if there's a point through the process
Speaker 1: of casting where they all of a sudden go Okay,
Speaker 1: that person's definitely going to be the villain, and then
Speaker 1: do they hand those notes over to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, every show I've done, whenever I start a new production,
Speaker 2: I mean, the productions I've been on lately don't have villains,
Speaker 2: which to me is good because although it's great to
Speaker 2: have villains in a movie or a TV show, like,
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, with reality TV, these
Speaker 2: are real people. They're not playing a character, so they
Speaker 2: have to come out and face the music once they
Speaker 2: come out of the house or the jungle or the villa. So,
Speaker 2: going back to your original question, yes, we do. Usually
Speaker 2: on day one of a new show, get told okay,
Speaker 2: this character here they're the villain. But to my understanding,
Speaker 2: those people are usually quite keen on that idea. I
Speaker 2: think it's a weird thing where villains are almost celebrated.
Speaker 2: I call it kind of the like Connor McGregor factor.
Speaker 2: There's likable villains now, the PG villain, yeah, the Disney villain, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: There's villains that you kind of are like on side
Speaker 2: with I think the best example of that I can
Speaker 2: give is like an Abby from The Bachelor. To some people,
Speaker 2: she's a villain, but she's a very likable villain. You
Speaker 2: can see that she's got a good heart. Even you,
Speaker 2: to a lesser extent on Big Brother, like you came
Speaker 2: in I think you were almost voted out in the
Speaker 2: first week or something. Yeah, and you were. I think
Speaker 2: you came in and said something like I'm the bitchiest
Speaker 2: person you'll ever meet. But then as the show develops
Speaker 2: and we get to know you, we see that underneath
Speaker 2: that vibrado, there's like a really good, genuine person who
Speaker 2: still has these villainous traits. So to me, like character
Speaker 2: development is really important in TV.
Speaker 1: It was before goggle Box, but I was goggle boxing
Speaker 1: people who were in the show thinking what would the
Speaker 1: viewers think? Yeah, so I was just saying what people
Speaker 1: were thinking, and sometimes that's villainous.
Speaker 2: Well, I think what you said on the first night
Speaker 2: to Michael is normally like that, or you're just apogean.
Speaker 1: If you keep pigeon all me as Ben Gay, can
Speaker 1: I pigeonhole you as being like a bogan because you've
Speaker 1: got a weird.
Speaker 2: Hair again, like Australia fell in love with you because yes,
Speaker 2: you had the villainous traits, but you had a good heart.
Speaker 2: And I think if we can portray people in reality
Speaker 2: TV that do have villainous, bitchy, kind of funny traits,
Speaker 2: but genuinely good people, I think that's the best case
Speaker 2: scenario for everyone involved.
Speaker 1: How does the executive producer involve himself when it comes
Speaker 1: to the editing process. So obviously they're there, you know,
Speaker 1: creating obstacles for people to jump over, creating storylines with
Speaker 1: a story producer, but how do they involve themselves with you?
Speaker 1: Like are you on set with them? And then do
Speaker 1: you go into the editing room knowing their notes or
Speaker 1: are they handing them over to you?
Speaker 2: Okay, So the way it works, I'll speak from the
Speaker 2: way it works from shows I've done, but the way
Speaker 2: it works on day one, will get given an episode
Speaker 2: and we work directly with the post producer. So someone
Speaker 2: that goes side by side with us, finds the story
Speaker 2: in the show, edits it down and as we might
Speaker 2: get upwards of fifty hours at footage for a forty
Speaker 2: five minute episode, So you can imagine the process involved
Speaker 2: with that so over a two week period, usually we
Speaker 2: edit that fifty hours let's just say fifty hours for
Speaker 2: argument's sake, down to maybe an hour fifteen, and then
Speaker 2: we have what we call a structural screening, where the
Speaker 2: show won't have all the bells and whistles that you
Speaker 2: see on air, it won't have music, it won't have
Speaker 2: sound effects, but it will just be a story at it.
Speaker 2: So then that's seen by a supervisor who will either
Speaker 2: say yes, do this, no, do that, don't like this story,
Speaker 2: follow this story more. So, then we take those notes
Speaker 2: and go away. And then that's when we start applying
Speaker 2: the bells and whistles and everything like that to sell
Speaker 2: the magic the show. And then two weeks later we
Speaker 2: have a screening with an executive producer, which I mean,
Speaker 2: I've been editing for eleven years now, and every screening
Speaker 2: with an executive producer I still get the same. It's like,
Speaker 2: imagine if you did an artwork and a whole bunch
Speaker 2: of people came in and disjudged your artwork, and then
Speaker 2: people are saying, No, I don't like red, can you
Speaker 2: change that to blue?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: I don't like those leads? Can you make them lower?
Speaker 2: Like that's the process. So an executive producer will come
Speaker 2: in give his notes, and then we've got about a
Speaker 2: week to action those notes, and then it usually goes
Speaker 2: off to a network or a streaming service who then
Speaker 2: give their notes. So there's a lot of hoops to
Speaker 2: jump through before the fifty hours I'm given gets to
Speaker 2: a television screen.
Speaker 1: Do you get really funny about people handing those notes over?
Speaker 1: Do you get annoyed over time that the same notes
Speaker 1: come back for you?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, yes I do. Because the thing with television
Speaker 2: is it's subjective. So like what a supervising producer may
Speaker 2: want may be different to what an executive producer may want,
Speaker 2: which may be different to what the client may want,
Speaker 2: and they could be giving you different notes. So you're like,
Speaker 2: but hang on, you told me to take it left
Speaker 2: and right, but now you want me to take it
Speaker 2: up and down. It's a very subjective process. So I
Speaker 2: get frustrated when I find myself going back and forth
Speaker 2: with notes, Like if someone takes me on a bum
Speaker 2: steer in one direction and says, no, why did you
Speaker 2: do that? Go back in this direction. It's basically like
Speaker 2: repainting a picture over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: You've worked with some of the same executive producers again
Speaker 1: and again, so obviously rehire you. Is there a flavor
Speaker 1: or a style that they know they're going.
Speaker 2: To get with you. Yeah, I think with ITV, for example,
Speaker 2: with Alex or Ben Olm, I get given more of
Speaker 2: the kind of opening scenes, like the flashier kind of
Speaker 2: I'm an editor that likes using a lot of sexy
Speaker 2: shots and sexy effects and cool looking drone shots. So
Speaker 2: with me, I think big epic scenes is what I like.
Speaker 2: So like whether that's the start of a new reality
Speaker 2: series or the teas at the front.
Speaker 1: Which is my favorite. By the way. I love the openings.
Speaker 1: I love especially under Celebrity always opens the year. Cannot
Speaker 1: wait for it because I love the sweeping shots. The
Speaker 1: drama then creative.
Speaker 2: I love that, and I also love comedy. What you
Speaker 2: touched on there with working with different executives, that's really
Speaker 2: good because I've learned so much from working with people
Speaker 2: like Ben Old and Almavadyakus and Ricky Priust. You know,
Speaker 2: they all have such a wealth of knowledge in television,
Speaker 2: and you learn little bits from all of them, and
Speaker 2: then you just take the bits that apply to you,
Speaker 2: and then I kind of feel like I've been molded
Speaker 2: by these people into what I am.
Speaker 1: But then think about it. You've been working for eleven
Speaker 1: years doing this job, and you know it's in the
Speaker 1: industry that can be really difficult to maintain employment, but
Speaker 1: you've still kept getting hired on the biggest shows, you know,
Speaker 1: some of the most amazing shows. Do you have a
Speaker 1: show that you can't say no to that when that
Speaker 1: comes around again, they go can you come for this?
Speaker 1: You're like, I want to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have two that I can't say no to
Speaker 2: that now I do have to say no to because
Speaker 2: I've had a child, one being I'm a celebrity to
Speaker 2: get me out of here. I think you would find
Speaker 2: it very hard to find anybody who works on that
Speaker 2: show that didn't have a blast. The other one is
Speaker 2: Love Island. I think for an editor, those two shows
Speaker 2: are really refreshing to work on because we're very much
Speaker 2: a part of the team in those kind of twenty
Speaker 2: four hour turnaround shows. We're not off in Sydney while
Speaker 2: the show was filmed in Africa where they're with production,
Speaker 2: so it feels like where all one big unit, which
Speaker 2: is refreshing. It's also a refreshing show to edit in
Speaker 2: terms of the way it's almost more real because you
Speaker 2: don't have the time to manipulate stuff as much, so
Speaker 2: we kind of just have to edit it as we
Speaker 2: see it, which is also really exciting. On any other show,
Speaker 2: you know, you could spend months on the same scene,
Speaker 2: whereas this is one day that's it might not be perfect,
Speaker 2: get it out.
Speaker 1: Are there contestants that are particularly good that stayed in
Speaker 1: your mind?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I always like the likable villains, like the like
Speaker 2: a Nash Pollard from MKR, the villains that have good
Speaker 2: hearts but also kind of own their villainness. I also
Speaker 2: really liked on I'm Celebrity. I think it was season eight,
Speaker 2: Angie and Evie. I found them really fun to edit.
Speaker 2: That's got a really good dynamic. And Richard Reid too
Speaker 2: really funds to edit. Yeah, I mean those definitely stick
Speaker 2: in my mind.
Speaker 1: We often talk about producers wanting to manipulate the cast
Speaker 1: to make a good content for the viewer. But then
Speaker 1: also I know a lot of these producers they quite
Speaker 1: often protect the contestants. So what do you hear more
Speaker 1: often do you hear turn it up or turn it down?
Speaker 2: It depends like if it was a real, genuine moment,
Speaker 2: we definitely lean into it. I think you hear the
Speaker 2: word frank and grabbing a lot where we, you know,
Speaker 2: put words into contestants mouse and I have never, in
Speaker 2: my eleven years of editing, made up something that somebody said.
Speaker 1: I might say, you've never frank and grab.
Speaker 2: I've have frank and grabs one hundred percent. I've frank
Speaker 2: and grabs, but I've frank and grabs in the way
Speaker 2: that I've cleaned up what somebody said, not mis betrayed
Speaker 2: what they said. I'll give you an example. So if
Speaker 2: a contestant said I hate oranges but I love apples,
Speaker 2: we could frank and grab that to say I love apples,
Speaker 2: but I hate oranges. But that would be mis betraying. Yeah,
Speaker 2: fair message. So we don't do that. I know there
Speaker 2: are shows which I won't mention, that do do that.
Speaker 2: But when I frank and grab, I'm more clean up
Speaker 2: what somebody said. I'll give you an example. So if
Speaker 2: I said I love Couldie Beach it's my favorite place
Speaker 2: to surf, I could break and grab that to say
Speaker 2: I love surfing at Couldie Beech. Yeah, it just makes
Speaker 2: a cleaner more concise sentence for television. I think everything
Speaker 2: these days is everyone wants everything very snappy, and so
Speaker 2: that's the way we're editing.
Speaker 1: Now. Do you turn away shows because you know that
Speaker 1: they're more frank and grabby types shows?
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah I do. There are two shows, very popular
Speaker 2: shows which I won't work on just because I know
Speaker 2: that they misbetray people and I just just doesn't sit
Speaker 2: right with me. So, you know, I've got to go
Speaker 2: home and sleep at night. And these people, like I
Speaker 2: said earlier, on these people, they're not characters in a movie.
Speaker 2: They're real people. They have to come out and live
Speaker 2: their lives and face the music after this. So I
Speaker 2: think if you've got people that are happy to be
Speaker 2: the villain, people that are leaning into their villainess, but
Speaker 2: also have the right intention and the good heart, I
Speaker 2: think that's the best outcome.
Speaker 1: It's so funny though, I from my experience of reality
Speaker 1: television and from them talking to my other housemates, so
Speaker 1: many of them said I was portrayed really differently to
Speaker 1: who I was, and I was like, what. Whan I
Speaker 1: watched it back, I thought they were portrayed exactly like
Speaker 1: maybe it was a heightened reality which meant that, you know,
Speaker 1: certain character traits that they had every day, but the
Speaker 1: reality was my walk away and my take home was
Speaker 1: that they were pain in the neck and then they
Speaker 1: go but I wasn't like that, And I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: you weren't like that all the time, but you were
Speaker 1: like that. So I think what a lot of producers
Speaker 1: are doing is just encapsulating or heightening the version of
Speaker 1: who you are.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. You use the right word. They're heightening,
Speaker 2: and that's what we do because that's what we do
Speaker 2: as editors, where storytellers that are trying to, you know,
Speaker 2: tell a clear, concise, but also entertaining story. So if
Speaker 2: someone in the Big brother House was nice for nineteen
Speaker 2: hours of the day but had a really bad moment
Speaker 2: for half an hour, but that half an hour would
Speaker 2: make really good television in a two minute, by what
Speaker 2: part are we going to use? And we heighten things,
Speaker 2: you know, like I can kind of empathize with reality
Speaker 2: show contestants that say they got a bad edit because
Speaker 2: we heightened, We exaggerate, So someone might have said a
Speaker 2: horrible thing, it doesn't sound that horrible, but when you
Speaker 2: put nasty, menacing music under it, it sounds like they're
Speaker 2: the worst person on planet Earth.
Speaker 1: You would talk about the screenings before, like as in
Speaker 1: the screenings all get together, who attends those screenings, Like
Speaker 1: who's always present for that?
Speaker 2: Okay, So the company I'm at nowt Eureka, we have
Speaker 2: Paul Franklin, we have Ricky Proofs. They're the two kind
Speaker 2: of main EPs that we work with at Eureka. So
Speaker 2: they attend the screenings and they give us approval to
Speaker 2: send off to the client. And usually network television, you
Speaker 2: do have a screening with the client in the room.
Speaker 2: When I say the client, I mean Channel seven, ten, nine,
Speaker 2: Tannel ten, Netflix, Amazon, stand they're the client. Usually what
Speaker 2: happens is we have a screening with the executives of
Speaker 2: that particular company, so Eureka, they give us the approval
Speaker 2: to show their product to the network. Basically what they're
Speaker 2: selling to the network, so they need to have confidence
Speaker 2: in it, if that makes sense, So they're going to
Speaker 2: give their notes, their feedback. They want to make sure
Speaker 2: that they're representing the company in a good way before
Speaker 2: we then show the network.
Speaker 1: What happens if the show is finished editing, like is
Speaker 1: now we're pre recording stuff or we're editing a whole series,
Speaker 1: or whether they're waiting until the audience can give an
Speaker 1: idea as to what's working. Does shows ever which are
Speaker 1: doing as well have a reformat to.
Speaker 2: Them very very rarely, because a show takes about six
Speaker 2: weeks from start to finish, to edit and then before
Speaker 2: it gets approved to go to air. Usually, once a
Speaker 2: show is on air, that time is gone because a
Speaker 2: show's rarely on for longer than six weeks. So no,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say if a show's rating badly, would they
Speaker 2: pull us all editors back to re edit every episode. Also,
Speaker 2: by that stage, the audience has kind of made up
Speaker 2: their mind too, Like if a show's tanking, it's very
Speaker 2: hard for that show to come back from that. Like
Speaker 2: once you know, once you go from a million to
Speaker 2: seven hundred thousand to four hundred thousand to three hundred thousand,
Speaker 2: it's very hard to get back up to a million.
Speaker 2: I think it's I don't think it's ever happened in
Speaker 2: my career. I'd say what they do do is maybe
Speaker 2: change the way the show's promoted. So if it's a
Speaker 2: show that you know, the network really backed and has
Speaker 2: a lot of babe in, they might promote it a
Speaker 2: different way or promoted more heavily, you know, with sponsored
Speaker 2: ads on Facebook, on Instagram, and they might change their
Speaker 2: advertisements on TV. I'm not saying it's never happened, but
Speaker 2: in my eleven years as an editor, I've never been
Speaker 2: pulled to remake a show because it's not doing well.
Speaker 1: It's funny that you hear those stories, though, because you're like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. It's if they would imagine editing that
Speaker 1: whole series and.
Speaker 2: Being like, you know, holy Moly, Holy Molly.
Speaker 1: For instance, you know Holy Molly was like that, you
Speaker 1: wouldn't go you finished Holy Molly, it's locked away. Imagine
Speaker 1: if they came back and they said, it'll be like
Speaker 1: re scrambling a jigsaw puzzible.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, and it's not. It's never going to be
Speaker 2: worth it too, because there's a lot of money involved
Speaker 2: in that and it doesn't guarantee you a result. I
Speaker 2: feel like, if an audience has made up their mind
Speaker 2: that they're not watching a show, you can change it
Speaker 2: and make it the best show ever made and they're
Speaker 2: not going to watch it.
Speaker 1: You worked on the Voice, which I think is is
Speaker 1: such a great brand here in Australia. You know, we're
Speaker 1: I've seeing so many seasons of that now. You know,
Speaker 1: when it comes to watching the music artist, I mean
Speaker 1: these artists get up. There is there ways in which
Speaker 1: you can emote the performance to make sure that the
Speaker 1: audience doesn't fall too deeply in love with a contestant
Speaker 1: that the coaches won't turn around for No.
Speaker 2: I think with the Voice, we want you to barrack
Speaker 2: for every person that walks onto that stage, because that
Speaker 2: takes a lot of guts. I mean I definitely couldn't.
Speaker 2: I can't see them, but if I could sing, I
Speaker 2: wouldn't do it. So I think you'll find with the
Speaker 2: Voice it's a very feel good, warming show. So before
Speaker 2: any contestant or artist walks onto that stage, we have
Speaker 2: a backstory, and they're never a backstory on Love Island
Speaker 2: or on Big Brother. We're going to portray someone as
Speaker 2: something they're always it's a barrack for that person they
Speaker 2: always have, you know, we get the oh, not another
Speaker 2: sad story. But you want to feel for these people.
Speaker 2: So when they do hit that amazing note, or they
Speaker 2: do turn the chairs or they don't turn the chairs,
Speaker 2: you really feel something for them and that's what makes
Speaker 2: good television. I think my name's Jack James.
Speaker 1: When I was fourteen ends up winning show. There's got talent.
Speaker 1: I went from being just some kid to fame and
Speaker 1: money and everything. Somewhere along the line, I.
Speaker 2: Just fell out of love. It's mission as clicked completely.
Speaker 2: I just felt alone and at rock bottom. I think
Speaker 2: if you can barrack for somebody, or you can feel
Speaker 2: for someone, or you're with them on the journey, that's
Speaker 2: what makes good television.
Speaker 1: How do you turn around those sixty seconds getting to
Speaker 1: know you clips? The how do those get made?
Speaker 2: Usually there's a really long interview that we watch through thoroughly. Basically,
Speaker 2: we try to print that person in the most concise
Speaker 2: short way possible.
Speaker 1: When you're watching a stream of audio or a stream
Speaker 1: of visual audio, can you mark it straight away and go,
Speaker 1: that's that's what it is. That's what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we have this is boring editor talk, but
Speaker 2: we have a thing called located. It's on our edit
Speaker 2: suites where anytime a contestant has said something that we
Speaker 2: want to use, we just mark it down like a
Speaker 2: red dot or a blue dot, and we come back
Speaker 2: to those and that's how we do our cutdown. So
Speaker 2: say one of the contestants is a farmer from the outback.
Speaker 2: You know, has an amazing voice, but he's been through
Speaker 2: years of drought. They are all the headlines that we want.
Speaker 2: We want that he's been through the drought, he's struggled,
Speaker 2: and now he's here to like improve his life. I
Speaker 2: think all farmers have a lot of hope. Your hope
Speaker 2: is going to rain again.
Speaker 1: You hope you'll fall in love and that you live
Speaker 1: happily ever after.
Speaker 2: What's the point of life if you can't have some love.
Speaker 2: So that's the story that we will tell in that
Speaker 2: sixty seconds. And how long does it take to get
Speaker 2: that it It depends on the person. If they've got
Speaker 2: a very clear, easy story, it can take a day.
Speaker 2: But if they've got a story where you know, there
Speaker 2: are hip hop artists that skateboards, that's man died that
Speaker 2: likes walking dogs, it's like, okay, which one of these
Speaker 2: do we follow? You want to be able to print
Speaker 2: someone really quickly because in a backstory you can't tell everything.
Speaker 2: You can tell the headlines and then you let the
Speaker 2: audience at home get to know these people in a
Speaker 2: more authentic way.
Speaker 1: I love them let's still go back and watch different
Speaker 1: seasons of it. A lot of the reality shows just
Speaker 1: to watch the buyer videos of people, because once you've
Speaker 1: known them and once you've watched the series, it's so
Speaker 1: fascinating to go back as you go, Yeah, that's sixty
Speaker 1: seconds really did tell a story that continued for another
Speaker 1: three months.
Speaker 2: YE was going to ask you, when you go back
Speaker 2: and watch those bio packages, are they accurate?
Speaker 1: Always?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever seen by a video that
Speaker 1: is completely out ofwapp Yeah. I think that they're so accurate,
Speaker 1: and I think that they're so telling, and I think
Speaker 1: it's fascinating to one pack. You know, getting the humor
Speaker 1: right on Holy Moly that has been a really interesting
Speaker 1: journey because you know, Australians could be quite funny with
Speaker 1: our humor and what we find funny, and that show
Speaker 1: has been wildly successful in America, and then you're bringing
Speaker 1: this kind of best in show style of humor to
Speaker 1: Holy Moly. Is it an easier or a harder show
Speaker 1: to try and insert humor in something like that.
Speaker 2: I don't think we really changed. I don't think we
Speaker 2: really changed the way we've made Holy Moly from America
Speaker 2: to Australia. I think we tried it with exactly the
Speaker 2: same comedy timing from Rob, so our brief wasn't different.
Speaker 2: It's just feel like Rob's humor doesn't necessarily land as
Speaker 2: well in Australia as it does in America. And I
Speaker 2: can't put my finger on why. I think maybe it's
Speaker 2: because he's American and Australians want to see fellow Australians
Speaker 2: on TV. I can't put my finger on it. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm a massive fan of the show. I love working
Speaker 2: on Holy Moly, I think it's hilarious. So when I
Speaker 2: read things online that, oh, this is so unfunny, this
Speaker 2: is crude, this is all this, this is horrible, it
Speaker 2: genuinely surprises me because I think it's fantastic.
Speaker 1: I think what's really funny is these shows that people
Speaker 1: write online about. People write about I'm a celebrity, Oh
Speaker 1: they're not famous. Julia Morris is not funny, Doctor Chris
Speaker 1: Brown's a bit weird. All of these things that most
Speaker 1: people are commenting online don't necessarily reflect the viewers, the
Speaker 1: people that truly love those shows. Yeah, so it's really
Speaker 1: fascinating and it's really hard to turn yourself off. Do
Speaker 1: you turn yourself away from reading comments about the programs
Speaker 1: you work on?
Speaker 2: Ah? I should, because I find it definitely does bum
Speaker 2: me out. Like when Holly Moly the first episode aired,
Speaker 2: I was on Twitter all night reading the comments, and
Speaker 2: with every negative comment, I've just felt my soul being
Speaker 2: destroyed because I was so excited when I first worked
Speaker 2: on Holy Moly USA and I couldn't wait to show
Speaker 2: my Australian friends and family. And then when it's come
Speaker 2: here and you know it's done okay, but it hasn't
Speaker 2: been received as well as I would have hoped. So yeah,
Speaker 2: reading negative comments about something that you've spent huge amounts
Speaker 2: of hours crafting, putting your sweat and blood and love
Speaker 2: into it is pretty soul destroying. So yes, I think
Speaker 2: my wife was angry at me for being on my
Speaker 2: phone all night on Holy Moly launch night, But I
Speaker 2: should turn away. And I think it's probably the same
Speaker 2: with reality show contestants when they come out and they
Speaker 2: start reading horrible things people have to say about them.
Speaker 1: Don't read the comments section.
Speaker 2: Yeah to people, Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: You know what's funny? I had my phone take really
Speaker 1: fascinating to sort of digest the way in which we
Speaker 1: are taking upon people's feedback being our critics, and I
Speaker 1: would say, whose opinion seems to cut deeper for you? Really?
Speaker 1: Is it people you know, like your mate saying I
Speaker 1: don't like Holly Molly? Or is it faceless people online?
Speaker 1: That's a great question because we know who should matter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's not the truth. I think I've been
Speaker 2: lucky with the people I surround myself with that I've
Speaker 2: never really had anyone tell me I don't like this.
Speaker 2: I've certainly worked on shows that you know my mum,
Speaker 2: and I wouldn't expect my mum or my family to
Speaker 2: watch I think, weirdly enough, the comments online are what
Speaker 2: affects me the most because they're not in any way biased.
Speaker 2: That's who we're making the show for, the people that
Speaker 2: we never see.
Speaker 1: What about your wife, folk, I mean, does she Do
Speaker 1: you think she's being honest with you about the shows
Speaker 1: that you work on, or do you think she senses herself?
Speaker 2: I'd say she senses herself. She's a very beautiful, kind
Speaker 2: hearted person. And if I do something that she may
Speaker 2: not like, she's certainly never told me something I do.
Speaker 2: It's terrible If she said she didn't like some I
Speaker 2: don't know like I would if it's somebody I can
Speaker 2: have a dialogue with and ask, okay, why I think
Speaker 2: that's I think that's probably sorry, That's probably what it is.
Speaker 2: It's probably that I with the people online. There's so
Speaker 2: many times where I've typed something back and then erase
Speaker 2: the race to race, to race, the race. And if
Speaker 2: Rachel and my beautiful wife said I don't like this show,
Speaker 2: I would be able to say, oh, okay, why, how
Speaker 2: could it be different? I'd be able to have that feedback.
Speaker 2: I'd be able to understand what the issue is. A
Speaker 2: lot of the negative comments about Holy Moley online is
Speaker 2: that it's not funny. I don't have that opportunity to
Speaker 2: say people to say to the people making those comments, Okay,
Speaker 2: how would you like? What would be funny to you?
Speaker 2: How would you do it differently? It's not that you
Speaker 2: can please everybody, but it would just be nice to
Speaker 2: know why. I mean, if I could be critical about
Speaker 2: one thing for Australian Holy Moley versus USA Holy Miley,
Speaker 2: would be duration. But I know that's a discussion way
Speaker 2: above me, way above my pay creap. That comes down
Speaker 2: to money. And what's financially viable for the network. But
Speaker 2: I think the USA one is a much snappier forty
Speaker 2: two minute You get your gags in show, whereas I
Speaker 2: think a ninety minute may just be a bit too
Speaker 2: long and everything stripped now because we were talking about
Speaker 2: that with David Mott last last week and he was saying,
Speaker 2: you know, we stripped the content. You know, we're stripping
Speaker 2: things out longer. I think Holy Molly would be a
Speaker 2: once a week thing. I one hundred percent agree, I think,
Speaker 2: And that's how it is in America. In America, it's
Speaker 2: a summer show once a week for forty two minutes.
Speaker 2: So ideally, with that, you get people at the end
Speaker 2: of the episode going, oh, I want more, because that's
Speaker 2: what we want. We want people. If you think about
Speaker 2: any Netflix show or stand show that you've watched that
Speaker 2: you binge, it's because you're left wanting more. And if
Speaker 2: we could leave people wanting more and putting in their
Speaker 2: calendar on next Wednesday, Holy Molly's on, I think that's
Speaker 2: the way I would do it.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the things I ask people every
Speaker 1: single time to finish TV reload is what's a funny
Speaker 1: story that you tell when you're sitting around with you
Speaker 1: and family, like the dinner room conversation. Yep, what's your
Speaker 1: go to story from being an editor working in.
Speaker 2: Round Yeah, Okay, there's lots of little micro stories that
Speaker 2: I tell, so, like you know, being an editor for
Speaker 2: eleven years, I've worked in a jungle where I come
Speaker 2: into my edit sweet ones to find a curled up
Speaker 2: snake on my mousepad. I've had bad burns robbed me
Speaker 2: in Africa. So I've got lots of little micro stories.
Speaker 2: But I think the one that sticks in my mind
Speaker 2: the most was when I was very young in my
Speaker 2: career as an editor. We worked very tight deadlines as
Speaker 2: an editor, and I was desperate to prove myself being
Speaker 2: young in the industry because it's quite cutthroat. You know,
Speaker 2: you constantly need to prove your work. And anyway, there
Speaker 2: was one night where I had a screening with the
Speaker 2: executive the next morning, and so I worked really really late.
Speaker 2: At this time, I was driving from the Central Coast
Speaker 2: to Sydney to work, so about an hour and a
Speaker 2: half each way. Anyway, I had a screening the next
Speaker 2: morning and I got a whole bunch of notes from
Speaker 2: my supervisor that afternoon to action before the screening, because
Speaker 2: I was like to be here all night doing these notes.
Speaker 2: So what ended up doing was I did all the notes.
Speaker 2: I finished them at about two o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 2: I was way too tired to drive back to the
Speaker 2: Central Coast and then drive back, which would have been
Speaker 2: three hours of driving in about a six hour period.
Speaker 2: So what I did was I slept at work on
Speaker 2: the floor and I thought I'll be okay because the
Speaker 2: cleaner's come in at seven o'clock in the morning and
Speaker 2: they'll wake me up and then I'll freshen up and
Speaker 2: be ready for the screening. Of course, that day, the
Speaker 2: cleaners didn't come in, so I was woken up by
Speaker 2: the executive and the team coming in for my screening.
Speaker 2: While I didn't have pants on, so I had my
Speaker 2: box of shorts on. I had to get myself. It
Speaker 2: could have been. I think they were very kind to me.
Speaker 2: I think they know that I worked really hard, But
Speaker 2: for a fleeting moment that was the most embarrassing moment
Speaker 2: of my life with a senior team coming into a
Speaker 2: junior editors edit suite where he'd been sleeping and in
Speaker 2: your shamboled in my undies. So that's my.
Speaker 1: Story then, is that when you decided to move and
Speaker 1: live closer to the studio.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it'd been coming. Like I
Speaker 2: think I knew I needed to move closer. I thought, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's definitely the straw that broke the camel's back with
Speaker 2: that one.
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to say congratulations. I think you
Speaker 1: have done so amazingly well to craft this career, but
Speaker 1: also you know, to keep getting highed, to keep coming
Speaker 1: back to being able to do what you truly feel
Speaker 1: passionate about, and that is telling stories. And I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people out there that it'd be
Speaker 1: fascinating to hear what you've been able to share today.
Speaker 1: So thank you so
Speaker 2: Much, thank you, and thanks for having me on