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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Happy Families podcast. Quick heads up.

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Speaker 1: While not explicit, the content of today's podcast does touch.

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Speaker 2: On things that are sexual in nature.

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Speaker 1: That means that if you're listening with younger kids, you

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Speaker 1: might want to press pause, find something else for them

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Speaker 1: to listen to, and come back to this one a

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Speaker 1: little bit later.

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Speaker 2: Just a heads up.

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Speaker 1: The content of today's podcast, while not explicit, does include

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Speaker 1: some discussion of things that are slightly sexual in nature. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so what do you do when your eleven year old

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Speaker 1: daughter announces that she's a lesbian at the same time

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Speaker 1: that five of her friends have all announced that they

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Speaker 1: are It's all happening in the same month. A listener

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Speaker 1: said us a voice note and asked if we could

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Speaker 1: please discuss something that schools won't talk about and most

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Speaker 1: parents are too afraid to mention girls, pornography and the

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Speaker 1: mass confusion happening right now around sexual identity. Noticed this

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Speaker 1: pattern if you've felt not in your stomach watching it

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Speaker 1: and fold and thinking they're too young, do they really

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Speaker 1: know what they're doing? Why is it all happening to

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Speaker 1: so many of them at once rather than just one

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Speaker 1: here and one there. If you've wondered whether you're the

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Speaker 1: only one seeing it. You're not alone, and we will

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Speaker 1: talk about it. Stay with us every Tuesday on the

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Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast. We answer your tricky questions and today

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Speaker 1: it's a doozy. Oh my goodness, what do you do

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Speaker 1: when you're eleven year old tells you that she's identifying

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Speaker 1: as a lesbian. Hello and welcome to the Happy Family's podcast,

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Speaker 1: Real Parenting Solutions every Day. This is Australia's most downloaded

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Speaker 1: parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Coulson. Tricky questions,

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Speaker 1: we'll answer anything, or do our very best to do

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Speaker 1: that sensitively, carefully and appropriately, considering your child's developmental circumstances,

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Speaker 1: your family and everything else that we can, recognizing that

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Speaker 1: the answers are general in context. If you'd like to

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Speaker 1: submit a tricky question, we've got a super simple system

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Speaker 1: for you. Just go to Happy Families dot com dot

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Speaker 1: you scrolled out of podcasts, click the record button and

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Speaker 1: start talking. Or alternatively, you can send us a voice note,

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Speaker 1: which is exactly what Melia did when she asked us this.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Justin. I'm trying to keep this really short, but

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Speaker 3: it's almost impossible. I just want to talk about girls

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Speaker 3: and pornography. There's so much going on about boys right now,

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Speaker 3: but there's stuff going on at the moment, especially through

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Speaker 3: our school that's not being talked about. You have so

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Speaker 3: many girls identifying as lesbians or binary. These girls are

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Speaker 3: watching so much same sex anime on their devices that

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Speaker 3: they are having normal body reactions to seeing sexual content.

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Speaker 3: It is normal for a woman to have a sensation

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Speaker 3: or a bodily reaction to same sex pornography. But because

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Speaker 3: we've got material, brains and adults, we know that we're not.

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Speaker 3: So it is happening a lot. I don't think it's

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Speaker 3: talked about the link between girls watching female pornographies, especially

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Speaker 3: in anime, and then then being confused with their own identity,

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Speaker 3: which is then causing anxiety, depression, self harming. It's happening

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Speaker 3: so much, and I honestly personally know about probably eleven

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Speaker 3: girls that were at ten eleven year old saying that

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Speaker 3: they were lesbians. I think it needs to be talked

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Speaker 3: about more. I hope all this makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, Okay, Kylie.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot there to unpack, and I want to

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Speaker 1: make this as helpful as I possibly can, because it's

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Speaker 1: clear that there's a lot of emotion as well. Is

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Speaker 1: there anything that jumps out at you straight away?

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Speaker 4: I do love that she's highlighted that there is a

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Speaker 4: lot of emphasis around pornography and boys, and just her

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Speaker 4: acknowledgment that girls are having exposure to this kind of

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Speaker 4: content as well, and just how damaging it is to

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Speaker 4: the way they identify as an individual. Let's take gender

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Speaker 4: out of the equation, let's take preference out of the equation,

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Speaker 4: but just in general, how they see themselves, how they

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Speaker 4: respond to the world, and how they're unable to process

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Speaker 4: it because it's not developmentally appropriate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the key thing.

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Speaker 1: There are all sorts of questions and challenges and concerns

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Speaker 1: that we could raise, but fundamentally, when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: ten eleven year old girls, it is true that even

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Speaker 1: from a young age, some people will identify with one

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Speaker 1: or another sexual orientation, but at this age for it

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Speaker 1: to be clustering and for a whole group to be

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Speaker 1: identifying the same way, that is unusual, and that certainly

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Speaker 1: indicates that there's other factors at play. So let's step

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Speaker 1: into this. First off, I want to highlight from just

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Speaker 1: just listen to what Melissa says, or the way she's

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Speaker 1: asked the question. It really does take courage to address

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Speaker 1: something that a lot of parents are willing to say,

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Speaker 1: I've noticed it, but they feel afraid to discuss. And

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Speaker 1: Melissa is identifying something that research has shown is a

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Speaker 1: real pattern. And therefore, while we live in a pluralistic

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Speaker 1: society and a society that is very accepting and tolerant,

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Speaker 1: well generally speaking, at this age, I think that some

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Speaker 1: can concerned for these young girls is both evident in

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Speaker 1: Meliss's voice note but also justified. So what's actually happening

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Speaker 1: unless it's touched on something that deserves I think, really

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Speaker 1: plain speech, and that is the difference between a physiological

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Speaker 1: response and a person's actual sexual orientation.

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Speaker 2: This is really hard.

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Speaker 1: I just as a red blooded male, is it completely

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Speaker 1: as heterosexual as you can get kind of guy?

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Speaker 2: I was shocked. I was absolutely stunned.

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Speaker 1: When I was doing my psychology degree and the topic

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Speaker 1: of pornography and pornography research came up and we were

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Speaker 1: shown evidence that young men who identify as heterosexual experience

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Speaker 1: higher levels of arousal when they see homosexual pornography than

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Speaker 1: if they see heterosexual pornography, and so that physiological response

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Speaker 1: is not a reflection of sexual orientation. It's just that

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Speaker 1: when you encounter highly sexualized content, what that does is

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Speaker 1: it gives you an experience, and if it's content that

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Speaker 1: you're not used to seeing, whether you like it or not,

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Speaker 1: it creates a stronger physiological response. And so when you've

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Speaker 1: got ten and eleven year old girls who are who

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Speaker 1: are being exposed to, whether it's intentional or unintentional explicit

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Speaker 1: content or whether they're just watching anime and manga that

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Speaker 1: romanticizes quite a lot of female same sex relationships. And

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Speaker 1: when girls are seeing this highly sexualized content, they don't

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Speaker 1: have the developmental maturity, They don't have the sexual maturity

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Speaker 1: to contextualize what they're experiencing.

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Speaker 4: I think one of the most important things we can

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Speaker 4: do to help our children navigate the space, whether they're

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Speaker 4: boys or girls, is helping them to understand how their

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Speaker 4: body responds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right, Like.

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Speaker 4: This is a physiological response. As an eleven year old,

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Speaker 4: there is no orientation because they're not developmentally ready for that.

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Speaker 1: When I was writing My Boy's book, I don't know

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Speaker 1: we're talking about girls here, but it's the same for

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Speaker 1: boys or girls. Average agent exposure to pornography. We think

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Speaker 1: somewhere around about the age of eleven first kiss, usually

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Speaker 1: somewhere around fourteen or fifteen. Kids are seeing explicit content,

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Speaker 1: or they're seeing representations of what could be explicit through

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Speaker 1: manger and anime three four years before they're having their

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Speaker 1: first sexual contact. Like I said, there are some people

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Speaker 1: who will say that in their bones, they just knew

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Speaker 1: that they were either hetero or homosexual from a young age.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the reality is, statistically speaking, the overwhelming majority

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Speaker 1: of kids are heterosexual. But there are some people who

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Speaker 1: will say, even when I was a kid, I knew

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Speaker 1: that I was gay, for example. But when we are

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Speaker 1: being exposed to this, it can create.

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Speaker 2: This physiological response.

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Speaker 1: When our kids are exposed to or it creates a

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Speaker 1: physiological response that may cause them to question their identity

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Speaker 1: when they're simply having a physiological response. And that's the

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Speaker 1: key thing that I want to get across here. I'm

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Speaker 1: not highlighting that anything is right, wrong, good, bad. There's

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Speaker 1: no morality in what I'm saying. I'm simply distinguishing or

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Speaker 1: wanting parents to distinguish between the physiological response to the

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Speaker 1: sexual imagery the autonomic response and emphasized that it is

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Speaker 1: not diagnostic, it's not predictive. When eleven year old experiences

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Speaker 1: aroused from same sex content has no framework to understand it,

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Speaker 1: then that may lead to her forming conclusions about her identity,

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Speaker 1: like definitions about her identity, and in the absence of

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Speaker 1: any adult guidance to help it distinguish between curiosity and

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Speaker 1: a physiological response and her actual orientation, she's left to

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Speaker 1: interpret these very complicated feelings in a really unusual context

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Speaker 1: with the understanding of a ten or eleven year old.

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Speaker 1: And that's really what my concern is here. This is

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Speaker 1: where I think the problem lies.

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Speaker 4: So I know we're talking about eleven year olds here,

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Speaker 4: but too many times you hear in cases where there

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Speaker 4: has been some violation taking place and boys will say

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Speaker 4: she wanted it because there was a physiological response for resent.

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Speaker 4: In girls, that meant she she clearly was turned on.

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Speaker 2: Right, which is int the case.

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Speaker 1: Just because your body is producing a lubricant, for example,

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Speaker 1: that does not mean that you are necessarily aroused and

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Speaker 1: seeking that Like the physiological response and.

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Speaker 4: The understanding how our bodies respond to stimulus, regardless of desire,

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Speaker 4: regardless of orientation, is so imperative and as parents, as

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Speaker 4: we're navigating the space where our children are living in

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Speaker 4: a world where they're told they can be anything they want.

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Speaker 4: It is the most mind boggling place to be as

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Speaker 4: a little kid experiencing the world for the first time,

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Speaker 4: let alone having all of the boundaries now removed.

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Speaker 1: Well, particularly given what some schools are teaching from a

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Speaker 1: sexual education perspective, it can be very it's a very

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Speaker 1: very confusing time. That again, though, that idea of what

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Speaker 1: the body is doing is not a reflection of the desire,

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Speaker 1: the emotional, the psychological side of things, and they.

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Speaker 4: Don't have the understanding of the experience to recognize them.

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Speaker 1: But that even ties back to what I was talking

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Speaker 1: about with the young men adult young men who are

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Speaker 1: exposed to erotic content involving other men. There's no desire

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Speaker 1: there for them. They identify as heterosexual, but there's still

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Speaker 1: a physiological response. And yet some of them may start

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Speaker 1: to go, oh, well, maybe that means that I'm not heterosexual.

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Speaker 2: Not necessarily the case at all.

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Speaker 1: Simply the body is having an autonomic response, a physiological

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Speaker 1: response that's totally different. Right off the break, I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about what parents can do why it matters,

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Speaker 1: and also the social contagient element. Stay with us. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is the Happy Families podcast. Pretty tough topic today,

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Speaker 1: a lot to get through in just a couple of

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Speaker 1: minutes to do it. I want to talk about the

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Speaker 1: social contagent element of Melissa's question. So, what we're describing

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Speaker 1: when we see a whole lot of kids clustering with

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Speaker 1: the same diagnosis, of the same label, the same this

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Speaker 1: is who I am, the same identity. What we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here is social contagion much more than orientation itself.

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Speaker 1: And so we've got a whole bunch of kids that

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Speaker 1: are prematurely adopting their sexual identity within their friend group.

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Speaker 1: When several girls in a peer group suddenly identifies lesbion

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Speaker 1: or non binary simultaneously, often around the ages of ten

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Speaker 1: through to fourteen fifteen, we do need to be honest

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Speaker 1: about what we're witnessing.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: It's true that one or more of them may actually

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Speaker 1: be homosexually oriented rather than heterosexually oriented, But what we

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Speaker 1: if there is a pattern of unrestricted access to sexualized content,

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Speaker 1: whether it's anime or manger or actually explicit content that's

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Speaker 1: been designed for adult audiences where there's peer reinforcement, so

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Speaker 1: adopting the identity brings social status or belonging or a

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Speaker 1: sense of specialness. We see a lot of that with

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Speaker 1: some kids who identify as trans and again that clusters

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Speaker 1: as well if there's a lot of adult affirmation, that

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Speaker 1: affirmation approach without any questioning, without any inquiry, adults who

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Speaker 1: are celebrating these declarations, without any kind of questioning about

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Speaker 1: what the child actually means and understands, and if there's

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Speaker 1: the absence of any alternative framework, so no one's no

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Speaker 1: one's telling these girls that confusion around sexual identity can

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Speaker 1: be quite normal.

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Speaker 2: They don't need a label, and that childhood.

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Speaker 1: Supposed to be a time of not having everything figured out.

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Speaker 1: If you have those those four or five things occurring

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Speaker 1: in that pattern, what you're typically going to see is

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Speaker 1: kids labeling themselves because of a physiological response or because

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Speaker 1: of their curiosity, driving them to more and more of

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Speaker 1: that kind of content.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a really important thing to highlight when.

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Speaker 4: I think back to some of the conversations we had

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Speaker 4: with our kids when they were quite young, coming home

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Speaker 4: because they were curious. And one day one of our

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Speaker 4: girls came home and she said mom, two of the

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Speaker 4: kids at school were sexing and I looked at her

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Speaker 4: and I said what. And I was ready to get

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Speaker 4: like really worked up about it. And I said, what's sexing?

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Speaker 4: And she said, you know, when they're like pushing their

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Speaker 4: lips together. And I was like, holy smokes, I was

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Speaker 4: about to launch into this massive conversation with her about

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Speaker 4: what it all was. Didn't need to know because.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't yeah, and she was way too young to know.

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Speaker 4: And she was way too young to know. And I

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Speaker 4: think that when we're talking about ten eleven year and

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Speaker 4: even twelve thirteen, fourteen year old kids, we actually need

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Speaker 4: to have conversations with them about how and why, and

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Speaker 4: we can talk to them about physical body responses and

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Speaker 4: how our bodies work. Those kinds of conversations are going

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Speaker 4: to really help us to understand where our children are

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Speaker 4: at instead of affirming something that we don't actually know

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Speaker 4: at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: So let's be really explicit about this. This is not

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Speaker 1: about invalidating anyone's genuine orientation. What this is about, this

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Speaker 1: conversation is about protecting children from locking into an identity

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Speaker 1: label before they've developed the maturity to understand what those

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Speaker 1: labels really mean and before they understand the social and

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Speaker 1: the medical pathways that they might be pressured to follow

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Speaker 1: if they adopt those labels. So the anxiety, the depression

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Speaker 1: is self harm. That Melissa's talking is often a sign

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Speaker 1: of really significant confusion in children who have been handed

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Speaker 1: these adult concepts through the content that they're viewing and

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Speaker 1: then encouraged to build their identity around them, and then

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Speaker 1: they're all too often left to navigate the psychological consequences

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Speaker 1: completely alone. And we are watching mainly girls. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen so much with boys. We're mainly watching girls disappear

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Speaker 1: into identity confusion at precisely an age where they should

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Speaker 1: be developing confidence in who they are as people, rather

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Speaker 1: than these little fragments of I think I'm this because

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Speaker 1: I'm going to take this sexual label and apply it

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Speaker 1: to myself.

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Speaker 4: So big topic, heavy conversations, but what are parents are

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Speaker 4: actually supposed to do?

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Speaker 1: So I always start my response to that question on

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Speaker 1: this topic by talking about screens. We've got to control

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Speaker 1: access to devices and me, I mean, we're talking about

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Speaker 1: ten year olds and eleven year olds here. If you

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Speaker 1: have a ten year old who has unlimited unfettered, unmonitored

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Speaker 1: Internet access. What you've done is you've given her a

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Speaker 1: adore into an adult galaxy with limited supervision. I'm not

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Speaker 1: talking about being controlling. I'm actually talking about being in controller.

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Speaker 1: Actually maybe it is a bit controlling. So we need

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Speaker 1: to make sure that there are parental controls, check them regularly,

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Speaker 1: keep devices out of bedrooms at night, keep screens in

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Speaker 1: common areas. Frankly, if you've got a ten year old,

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Speaker 1: she shouldn't have a smartphone, she shouldn't have a smart device.

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Speaker 1: Just I don't think that it's appropriate, full stop, end

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Speaker 1: of story. You're going to get major pushback and you're

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Speaker 1: going to be told that she's the only one that's fine.

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Speaker 2: Stand firm. You're the parent.

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Speaker 1: So that's the first thing. Second thing that I would

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Speaker 1: say is if these conversations are happening, you want to

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Speaker 1: have the conversations without judgment, but also without automatic affirmation.

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Speaker 1: The Australian Psychological Society pushes for affirmation and affirmative responses.

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Speaker 1: What they argue for I think they're wrong. I disagree

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Speaker 1: profoundly with that. You're talking about a ten or eleven

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Speaker 1: year old. You're not just going to say, well, if

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Speaker 1: that's what you say, then that's what it is. If

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Speaker 1: your daughter is identifying as lesbian or non binary, you

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Speaker 1: don't need a panic, you don't need to dismiss it.

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Speaker 1: But you also don't have to automatically say, well, if

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Speaker 1: that's why, but you say you are, then that's what

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Speaker 1: you are.

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Speaker 2: The current script.

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Speaker 1: Tells us to celebrate it, to affirm it. I think

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Speaker 1: it's safer too.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: My preference would be to resist initially, But if you're

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Speaker 1: not comfortable resisting, I'd say, at least ask questions with

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Speaker 1: genuine curiosity. What does that mean to you? What made

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Speaker 1: you start thinking about this? How long have you felt

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Speaker 1: this way? Have your friends been talking about it too?

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Speaker 1: What do you think being lesbian means? What do you

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Speaker 1: think being non binary means? And you'll find, just like

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Speaker 1: you found Kylie with the sexing versus kissing comment, that

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Speaker 1: what she's saying and what she actually understands usually going

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Speaker 1: to be two different things.

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Speaker 4: But not only that, it's normal.

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Speaker 2: To be curious totally.

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Speaker 4: It's so normal to be curious. I remember a conversation

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Speaker 4: we had with our now twenty two year old. She

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Speaker 4: was six, and she looked at me and she said,

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Speaker 4: I am never having children, like she was dead serious,

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Speaker 4: never going to happen. Well, we're now twenty two, we've

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Speaker 4: had some life life experience, and she's looking forward to

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Speaker 4: being a mum. But if she'd made.

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Speaker 1: A permanent not anytime soon, I'm like, quickly at not

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Speaker 1: anytime soon.

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Speaker 2: There are no plans in the works.

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Speaker 4: But if she'd made a permanent decision as a six

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Speaker 4: year old to ensure that she didn't ever go down

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Speaker 4: that road, she would never have the opportunity to mature

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Speaker 4: and understand and experience life in a different way from

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Speaker 4: a different viewpoint.

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Speaker 1: And it's that too though, like six year of course,

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Speaker 1: But once they get to twelve, thirteen, fourteen, people start saying,

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Speaker 1: oh no, they can do No, they can't.

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Speaker 2: They can't drive, they can't drink alcohol, they can't.

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Speaker 4: Modify them adults for a reason.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we've got to I want to run through a

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Speaker 1: couple more really quickly, and our time is up. So

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Speaker 1: teach the difference between feelings and identity. What do I

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Speaker 1: mean by that? I mean help her understand that the

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Speaker 1: physical response is that she's happening, the attraction, the confusion

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Speaker 1: that comes and goes, especially during puberty. This is a

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Speaker 1: time where that happens. Identity is something that develops over

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Speaker 1: time through and you use these words before, through lived experience.

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Speaker 1: It's not something that you rush into at eleven based

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Speaker 1: on a bodily reaction to anime or manga.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting to me though, like when I was growing up,

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Speaker 4: that normal curiosity was there, right.

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Speaker 2: And everybody said, oh, that's normal to be curious.

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Speaker 4: No, but if a girl kissed a girl because she

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Speaker 4: was curious, it wasn't a knee jerk jump reaction she

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Speaker 4: must be a lesbian. It was she kissed a girl

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Speaker 4: because she was curious.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: But now we're at this point where we have all

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Speaker 4: of these children confused and trying to work out who

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Speaker 4: they are in a world that they're not ready to

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Speaker 4: live in.

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Speaker 1: So I'd be saying normalized not knowing, normalize waiting, normalize

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Speaker 1: the idea that childhood and adolescents are supposed to be

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Speaker 1: periods of exploration without permanent declarations of identity.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we're not saying you are or you are not correct,

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Speaker 4: but let's just take some time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you don't have to lock it in. Yeah, lock

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Speaker 2: it in, Eddie, lock it in.

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Speaker 1: Who has to be a millionaire who I could say

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Speaker 1: something else, but I'm going to move on. There are

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Speaker 1: two more that I want to highlight. I think that

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Speaker 1: we've really got to watch for peer influence and address

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Speaker 1: it directly. So if there's a whole bunch of friends

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Speaker 1: that are adopting similar identities simultaneously, that is a red

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Speaker 1: flag and we need to address it. So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's social pressure. It's not organically discovering who I am.

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Speaker 1: This is social pressure wearing a costume of authenticity and celebration.

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Speaker 1: Here's a script, gently explore it like this, I've noticed

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Speaker 1: several of your friends have started identifying as lesbian on

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Speaker 1: non binary about the same time as you. Why do

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Speaker 1: you think that is? What's going on with that? Do

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Speaker 1: you feel like you'd fit in less if you didn't

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Speaker 1: identify that way? Okay, So there's a script around that

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Speaker 1: that can be helpful because sometimes just naming the pattern

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Speaker 1: is enough to help her to see it. And if

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Speaker 1: you discover that her not being straight is a form

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Speaker 1: of social currency in the peer group, then it's time

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Speaker 1: to have bigger discussions, diversify the social circle, find different friends,

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Speaker 1: or at least have conversations about what's actually going on

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Speaker 1: in the peer group. Here's the last one that I

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Speaker 1: want to highlight. We need to limit exposure and be

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Speaker 1: honest about why. So what do mean by that? Say

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Speaker 1: something like this, you're not ready for sexual content yet.

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Speaker 1: It's not because there's anything wrong with you. It's because

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Speaker 1: your brain still developing.

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Speaker 2: And this is.

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Speaker 1: Material that's been put together to affect adults in certain ways,

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Speaker 1: and if you encounter it now, it's going to create

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Speaker 1: confusion that you are just not equipped to handle. When

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Speaker 1: you're older, you'll have the maturity in the context to

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Speaker 1: make sense of things that are just going to mess

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Speaker 1: with your head right now, and you can even encourage

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Speaker 1: I don't want you to look at it when you're

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Speaker 1: older either, but at least when you're older, you'll be

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Speaker 1: you'll have a much greater sense of who you are.

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Speaker 1: And then you've got to enforce it. Check the browser history,

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Speaker 1: monitor the apps, know what she's watching. If you discover

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Speaker 1: that she's been accessing pornography or highly sexualized content through

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Speaker 1: anime or manga, you've got to address it immediately. You're

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Speaker 1: not getting it in trouble, you're not stealing devices away. Well,

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Speaker 1: maybe you are eventually but certainly with clarity about why

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Speaker 1: it's harmful and what the consequences should be. So they're

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Speaker 1: kind of my big ideas, Kylie. Ultimately, as a parent,

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Speaker 1: you've got to set boundaries, especially with kids at a

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Speaker 1: ten or eleven, but even twelve thirteen, fourteen fifteen, the

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Speaker 1: pattern exist. Lots of parents are identifying it. I can't

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Speaker 1: tell you how many parents have sidled up to me

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Speaker 1: after a presentation and whispered what's going on with this?

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Speaker 1: And then they've highlighted these kinds of issues and this

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Speaker 1: has brought up She's sort of said the bit that

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Speaker 1: you're not supposed to say out loud, out loud, and

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Speaker 1: hopefully we've been sensitive today and also highlighted that we

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Speaker 1: want our children to take their time before they lock

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Speaker 1: in an identity. The girls need parents to be available

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Speaker 1: to have those hard conversations and guide them carefully.

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Speaker 2: We're way over time. We need to wrap it up.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from

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00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,879
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Mimhammonds provides additional research, admin and other support.

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Speaker 1: If you've got a tricky question, hit us with it,

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Speaker 1: send us a voice note to podcasts at happy families

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Speaker 2: Record and start talking.

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Speaker 1: Another tricky question next week on the Happy Families Podcast tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: And interview with Jackie NeSSI from the Technosapien Substack, my

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00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 1: brand new favorite substack as we talk about kids.

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Speaker 2: Tech, and more on the Happy Families podcast

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