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Speaker 1: I must say that I've always been really philosophical about

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Speaker 1: it because I remember my first review is so bad,

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Speaker 1: and I'm really it was really wounding, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I was performing that show, so I had to go

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Speaker 1: out on stage, and in my head, I thought that

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Speaker 1: everybody had read that review and they were sort of

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Speaker 1: sitting there in judgment of me, and it was an awful

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Speaker 1: sort of place to be. And I had to get

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Speaker 1: to a point where I was like, you can't worry

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Speaker 1: about that stuff.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbat. I'm an

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Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with

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Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my workday. My guest today is

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Speaker 2: Eddie Perfect. Eddie is a singer, songwriter, an actor, a

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Speaker 2: comedian and currently has not just one but two shows

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Speaker 2: on Badway, King Kong and Beetlejuice. Australian listeners might know

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Speaker 2: Eddie from playing Mick Holland in Offspring, and theater goers

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Speaker 2: might be familiar with some of Eddie's works, such as

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Speaker 2: Shane Warn the musical and vivid white. When Eddie and

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Speaker 2: I spoke, King Kong had literally just opened on Broadway

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Speaker 2: and he was knee deep in rewrites for Beetlejuice. This

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Speaker 2: interview really deep dives into what goes on behind the

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Speaker 2: scenes in writing a Broadway musical, which for a musical

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Speaker 2: theater boffin such as myself, was absolutely delightful. And also

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Speaker 2: I should add that you might need to excuse some

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Speaker 2: of the crackling sound in the background. Eddie was actually

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Speaker 2: sitting in Central Park, New York when we take this interview,

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Speaker 2: and as a result, there's a bit of crackle and

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Speaker 2: the occasional ambulance siren. And on that note, over to

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Speaker 2: Eddie to hear about how he works. Eddie, welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be on your show.

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Speaker 2: You're in New York right now and so far like

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Speaker 2: in the last little while, you've been working on not

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Speaker 2: one but two Broadway musicals can currently, which I must

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Speaker 2: say seems like at a madness. How did that happen?

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Speaker 1: Well, it happened by accident and not by design. About

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Speaker 1: three years ago I started coming to New York to

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Speaker 1: try and get on that great big writer list, in

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Speaker 1: the sky, which is sort of a weird job in

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Speaker 1: itself because there is it's an imaginary list, and nobody

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Speaker 1: knows who the hell I am.

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Speaker 3: So I wasn't quite sure how to do it. But

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Speaker 3: I heard.

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Speaker 1: Beatle Juice of Musical have been in development for three

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Speaker 1: years and they were knocking around with a script and

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Speaker 1: they had two book writers, and they were auditioning composer lyricists.

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Speaker 1: Often composer lyricist team so those two jobs are separated

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Speaker 1: into two different humans who collaborate together, which is sort

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Speaker 1: of probably the most common way. But I write music

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Speaker 1: and lyrics sort of at the same time, well not

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Speaker 1: necessarily at the same time, but I do both those things,

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Speaker 1: and I collaborate with myself. So when I heard it

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Speaker 1: was going around and they didn't have a writer yet,

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Speaker 1: I asked if I could be involved in the pitch,

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Speaker 1: and over a few months, my agent here in New

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Speaker 1: York made inquiries and discovered that they had it out

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Speaker 1: to some pretty heavy hitting Broadway teams. They weren't that

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Speaker 1: keen in extending the pitch to include an unknown Australian guy.

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Speaker 1: But I was in a meeting with my agent and

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Speaker 1: he's like, I think you just got to let this

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Speaker 1: one go and we'll find something else you can pitch on.

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Speaker 1: And I said, what if I wrote two songs for

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Speaker 1: them for free on spec and you know, if they

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Speaker 1: hate them, it's not going to cost them any time

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Speaker 1: or money. And my agent was pretty surprised that I

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Speaker 1: would even offer to do that. Most writers expect to

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Speaker 1: be put inside a pitch process and paid for writing

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Speaker 1: the pitch Dot songs that they send in. But I

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Speaker 1: was like, dude, I do anything at this point to

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Speaker 1: get on that list. And I thought the best it

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Speaker 1: would come from it would be I'd be able to

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Speaker 1: put up two songs to a brief under a Broadway

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Speaker 1: director's nose, and even if it didn't come off of

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Speaker 1: this project, that would be at least, you know, an

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Speaker 1: Iron and the Fire. But I also thought it had

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Speaker 1: the added benefit of being able to show my American agent, who.

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Speaker 3: Had just started working with, that I could write to

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Speaker 3: an American brief.

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Speaker 1: And anyway, I wrote these two songs, one for the

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Speaker 1: character of Beetlejuice and one for the character of Lydia,

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Speaker 1: and then I got another idea for an opening number

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Speaker 1: that I sent them as well. And a months went

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Speaker 1: by and I got a call out of the blue

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Speaker 1: saying I booked the gig, and that was crazy. That

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Speaker 1: was three years ago. So I flew to New York

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Speaker 1: to meet everyone. And the whole process of that of

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Speaker 1: writing Beetlejuice happened from my happened all over the place.

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Speaker 1: It happened in my I've got a studio at the

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Speaker 1: back of my house in East Brunswick, but I also

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Speaker 1: rented a temporary studio in Collingwood that I wrote out

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Speaker 1: of for about four months. But I also wrote it

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Speaker 1: in dressing rooms at the Sydney Opera House when I

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Speaker 1: was performing up in Sydney for about four months.

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Speaker 3: And I.

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Speaker 1: Wrote in dressing rooms with the Adelaide Festival Center when

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Speaker 1: I was over there as one of the artists directors

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Speaker 1: in the Adelaide Cabre Festival. I wrote in airports, you know,

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Speaker 1: I wrote in I wrote anywhere, really. I mean, my

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Speaker 1: setup is pretty small, so it's a keyboard and a

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Speaker 1: laptop and a microphone on a stand and I just

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Speaker 1: need a table really, so I could kind of write anywhere,

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Speaker 1: and I could fly anywhere with my mobile rig. And

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Speaker 1: I was writing for about eighteen months, and I was

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Speaker 1: actually in New York doing what they call a lab,

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Speaker 1: which was I think about to the three weeks of

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Speaker 1: workshopping Beetlejuice, and I got a call from the head

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Speaker 1: of Global Creatures in Australian company that produced musicals, and

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Speaker 1: they asked if I'd like to come after New York

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Speaker 1: to London to sit in the room with some creatives

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Speaker 1: and see if we can come up with a and

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Speaker 1: come up with a I guess a pitch, an outline

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Speaker 1: for how we might want to do King Kong. But

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Speaker 1: I'd seen it in twenty thirteen and really liked it

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Speaker 1: and hadn't heard anything about it. I knew it was

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Speaker 1: I knew it was like vying for a Broadway theater

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Speaker 1: and wanted a Broadway season, but I hadn't heard about

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Speaker 1: what the process had been in the intervening years. But

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Speaker 1: evidently they had a couple of goes that it were

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Speaker 1: different creative teams and it hadn't worked, and they had

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Speaker 1: a theater booked and the puppet can only really fit

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Speaker 1: in two of the Broadway theaters here, and they had

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Speaker 1: a booking for the Broadway theater that they didn't want

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Speaker 1: to let go, but they needed to pitch a new

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Speaker 1: version of the show to see if the theater would

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Speaker 1: go for it and keep their booking. So we spent

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Speaker 1: three days workshopping and outline for the show, and we

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Speaker 1: pitched back to the lead producer and they pitched it

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Speaker 1: back to the theater and everybody.

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Speaker 3: Liked it and we went ahead with it.

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Speaker 1: So that started eighteen months after Beetlejuice, and then and

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Speaker 1: then everything that was in sort of in the writing

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Speaker 1: of them, you know, the development phases, and normally, you know,

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Speaker 1: you are you have to make them up within the

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Speaker 1: group of collaborators that you're working with. With Beetlejuice, it

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Speaker 1: was like, right, for three months, fly to New York,

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Speaker 1: spend a week with the writers, the book writers or

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Speaker 1: scriptwriters workshop the first act, go away, do the same

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Speaker 1: for the second act. But they would all happen staggered,

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Speaker 1: so you know, there would be a King Kong lab

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Speaker 1: and then there would be a Beetlejuice Lab would be

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Speaker 1: after it. They never overlapped and I could kind of switch,

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Speaker 1: you know, we switch between hats pretty successfully, not without

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Speaker 1: you know, huge amounts of stress and like kind of pressure.

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Speaker 1: But they seemed to be, you know, staying in their

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Speaker 1: own lanes. And then those parallel roads just smashed together

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Speaker 1: here in New York. We had it was unbelievable. Not

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Speaker 1: only was I rehearsing both shows at the one time

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Speaker 1: here in New York, they were both in the one

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Speaker 1: rehearsal venue, on different floors. And then Beatle Juice went

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Speaker 1: out of town to Washington, d C. And then from

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Speaker 1: that point on, I was tecking and previewing and rewriting

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Speaker 1: King Kong and New York and doing the same process

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Speaker 1: at the same time in DC, and just catching the

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Speaker 1: train between Washington, d C. And New York every sort

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Speaker 1: of two days. And then I'd be riding on trains

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Speaker 1: and riding in hotel rooms and writing in lobbies of

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Speaker 1: theaters and writing in you know, the men's bathrooms.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes.

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Speaker 1: It was crazy. So that then and then they all

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Speaker 1: sort of happened. And now now I'm in a position

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Speaker 1: where King Kong is opened. It's frozen, which means that

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Speaker 1: no more creative changes happened, and it just ones at

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Speaker 1: the Broadway Theater and it's doing really well. I think

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Speaker 1: it's kind of it's grossing over a million bucks every week,

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Speaker 1: which is which is pretty pretty good, and it's building,

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Speaker 1: which is fantastic, and Beetlejuice is now in a stage

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Speaker 1: where we are doing huge, like kind of extensive rewrites

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Speaker 1: and retooling out of Washington, DC to get ready for

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Speaker 1: another lab in January here in New York. Then we

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Speaker 1: rehearse in February, and we go into the theater in March,

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Speaker 1: and we have our first preview March twenty eight, and

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Speaker 1: by April twenty fifth, the press night for Beetlejuice will

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Speaker 1: be open at the Winter Garden, which is diagoning across

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Speaker 1: from the Broadway Theater, which is bizarre, so you could

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Speaker 1: stand out the front of one and hit the other

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Speaker 1: one of the rock and then my work on both

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Speaker 1: those shows will be done, and hopefully they'll have long

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Speaker 1: so bloody better have long lines.

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Speaker 3: That's when a writer.

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Speaker 1: That's when a writers dan as a chance of you know,

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Speaker 1: earning an income is out of the back end of

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Speaker 1: a show in royalty terms. So then I'll have to

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Speaker 1: find another show to do.

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Speaker 2: Gosh, you won't know yourself come April. Goodness with that,

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Speaker 2: that's such a journey. I want to delve into how

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Speaker 2: you write a song, and you know, maybe one of

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Speaker 2: the songs that you wrote is kind of like your

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Speaker 2: audition pieces for Beetlejuice, perhaps I want to start at

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Speaker 2: the beginning, like where where does the song start for you?

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Speaker 2: I guess, particularly when you've got to like there was

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Speaker 2: kind of a brief it sounds like for Beetlejuice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the brief was was pretty funny. So they

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Speaker 1: sent me the script and you know which, as I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: had been like that had been in development for about

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Speaker 1: three years with two book writers, through very funny, smart

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Speaker 1: book writers by the names of Anthony King and Scott Brown.

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Speaker 1: They've known each other since so were fourteen years old.

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Speaker 1: They were heavily involved in founding the Upright Citizens Brigade,

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Speaker 1: which is which is a very influential improv organized here

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Speaker 1: in New York. So these guys that are a really

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Speaker 1: strong kind of connection and a strong relationship, and the

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Speaker 1: script as a result was incredibly funny and surprising and

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Speaker 1: dark and comic, not in you know, not in kind

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Speaker 1: of music theater comedy world where you know, jokes can

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Speaker 1: kind of have a different temperature and a little bit

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Speaker 1: more I guess wanting without being too pejoraty of like,

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Speaker 1: you know, slightly more tempered and broad. They wanted to

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Speaker 1: sit in that world of comedy, to be kind of

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Speaker 1: comedy literate, and as a result, the script was really

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Speaker 1: funny and really surprising, and it was basically, you know,

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Speaker 1: you would read a scene and then it would get

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Speaker 1: to where they imagined a song would be, and they'd

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Speaker 1: just be in parentheses, in parenthesis, a kind of a

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Speaker 1: bolded bit of text that was a brief, you know,

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Speaker 1: And they wanted me to write a song for Lydia

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Speaker 1: and a song for Beatle Juice to try and get

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Speaker 1: a sense of whether I could find a singing voice

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Speaker 1: for those characters, which is really important in an adaptation

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Speaker 1: of something that people already know and love, and they

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Speaker 1: need to make the leap from having seen those characters

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Speaker 1: on screen and then totally believing that they could sing,

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Speaker 1: that there was a language and a sound, a kind

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Speaker 1: of a sonic world that made sense for that character

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Speaker 1: that people would buy, you know, and not go, Jesus Christ,

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Speaker 1: why has this been made into a musical and totally destroyed?

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of a big responsibility, especially because you know,

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Speaker 1: you're sort of pitching to get the gig at the

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Speaker 1: same time as you're trying to solve one of the

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Speaker 1: biggest problems about the show of any adaptation, which is

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Speaker 1: how do these characters sing? So with Beetlejuice, for example,

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Speaker 1: the moment in the script way back when he turned up,

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Speaker 1: It was after the Maitlands. I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: remember the movie, but the Maitlands die and they go

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Speaker 1: home and they don't know they're dead, and they're just

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Speaker 1: sort of trying to work out why they're cold and why,

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Speaker 1: you know, Barbara's fingers are on fire and they realize

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Speaker 1: they're dead. And then in the script who turns up?

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Speaker 1: And his opening number was very much a sales pitch

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Speaker 1: to try and convince Adam and Barbara Maitland to hire

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Speaker 1: him to be a bio exorcist to scare the Deetzers

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Speaker 1: who had bought their house and were moving in. And

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Speaker 1: so I guess in kind of song terms, you know,

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Speaker 1: music theater is not unlike law in a weird way.

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Speaker 1: When you go to talk about the function of a song,

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Speaker 1: there are usually a lot of other precedents from other

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Speaker 1: musicals that stand as examples of how a song can function.

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Speaker 1: So it doesn't mean your song's going to be anything

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Speaker 1: like that song, But in terms of functionality, it's sometimes

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Speaker 1: good to be able to draw references, and so immediately

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Speaker 1: I was like, okay, you know, a demon who has

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Speaker 1: no social niceties, doesn't know how to deal with people,

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Speaker 1: has been confined and cursed and banished to this house,

257
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Speaker 1: is invisible, is kind of impotent in all ways, but

258
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Speaker 1: also incredibly tactless and sleazy, is trying to use everything

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Speaker 1: at his disposable disposal to convince these incredibly conservative, button down,

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Speaker 1: uptight New England, the type this couple, that they should

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Speaker 1: employ him. So, you know, immediately I started thinking of

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Speaker 1: things like, you know, there's a very well known song

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Speaker 1: from Aladdin, the Genie sings friend like Me, where he's

264
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Speaker 1: first freed from the lamp, and that song is a

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Speaker 1: kind of a you know, a real turt to fource

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Speaker 1: for the character basically selling his services, you know, And

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, what would Beatlejuice's language be. And

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Speaker 1: in the script, he has you know, multiple personalities, multiple

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Speaker 1: conversations and demons running through his body. He's like a

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Speaker 1: vessel for thousands and thousands of different personalities, and I

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Speaker 1: thought it'd be great if musically they could all interact

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Speaker 1: with each other in the same song, and that meant

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Speaker 1: being able to, you know, turn on a dime from

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Speaker 1: one genre of music to another. It meant being able

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Speaker 1: to kind of surprise the listener by not just having

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Speaker 1: a song start in say, you know, four full time

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Speaker 1: and then continue in four full time through the whole song.

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Speaker 1: And needed to be able to, you know, he had

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Speaker 1: about a subdivide rhythms, go into compound time, if you

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Speaker 1: needed to have irregular bar lengths, be able to switch

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Speaker 1: to new genres of music. But all of it in

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Speaker 1: the service of convincing this couple that he should be

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Speaker 1: employed by them to scare the people that have taken

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Speaker 1: over their house.

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Speaker 3: And so I quickly kind of ran.

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Speaker 1: Into issues because it's very easy to start a song

287
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Speaker 1: and then go, okay, well here we are.

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Speaker 3: We're in, We're in.

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Speaker 1: Kind of like the original brief was, we want kind

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Speaker 1: of dark carnival, a sort of demented circus music with

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Speaker 1: a bit of Oingo, a bit of Danny Elfman esque

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Speaker 1: Oingo Boingo.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, Oingo Boingo, what the fuck is right?

294
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Speaker 1: And if I just googled Oino Boingo, I would have

295
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Speaker 1: found out that oo Borno was the name of Danny

296
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Speaker 1: Elfan's band like way back in the day.

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Speaker 3: But I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, bo I think I know it.

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Speaker 1: There's I think I know what they meant. You know,

300
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Speaker 1: I had no idea, and so I'm like trying to

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Speaker 1: write Oingo boingo like you know, like which is for

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Speaker 1: me is like kind of spongy, bouncy, carnivalle circusy, you know,

303
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Speaker 1: Tom Waiteze sort of that kind of music. That's the

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Speaker 1: sort of music I had in my had in my head.

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Speaker 1: So even though I got the brief completely wrong, I

306
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,120
Speaker 1: was actually quite useful. And you know, I you know,

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Speaker 1: I wrote wrote the opening. It was a kind of

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Speaker 1: sca and then he sang like a little ink and

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Speaker 1: then he had a little banjo came out and he

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Speaker 1: sang a bit of music that sounded like, you know, folksy,

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Speaker 1: like the Rainbow Connection, and then he would sing death

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Speaker 1: metal and then back to folksy, and then swing jazz,

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Speaker 1: and then maybe something that was sort of like classical.

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Speaker 1: So it was always like WHOA, we're we're going. But

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Speaker 1: in terms of creating a song, you know, you can

316
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Speaker 1: add a genre at a genre at a genre, and

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Speaker 1: by the end of it you have a completely incohesive song.

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Speaker 1: That has no sort of spine to it. It's just sprawling.

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Speaker 1: So I was trying to wrangle all of these styles

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Speaker 1: into the one house, and that was proving to me

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Speaker 1: really difficult. I ring my manager, who is very musical

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Speaker 1: musically literate, and I was like, who else does this?

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Speaker 1: And he was like, what about mister Bungle? And I

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Speaker 1: was like, yes, I hadn't listened to mister Bungle since

325
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Speaker 1: I was in high school. So I went back and

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Speaker 1: listened to some of that and that was a really

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Speaker 1: that was a really great reference point as well. And

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Speaker 1: it was basically just I don't know how long, maybe

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Speaker 1: like three weeks, which is a long time to write

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Speaker 1: a song.

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Speaker 3: Three weeks of constant.

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Speaker 1: Writing all day in my studio, bouncing down what I'd

333
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Speaker 1: written into an MP three, emailing it to myself, and

334
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Speaker 1: then I would put it, you know, I would email

335
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Speaker 1: to myself and then I would put my headphones into

336
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Speaker 1: my phone and I would walk around the streets of

337
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Speaker 1: East Brunswick listening to it, trying to be about as

338
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Speaker 1: objective about the music as I could. You know, when

339
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Speaker 1: did it feel like it flagged in energy? When did

340
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Speaker 1: it feel like it lost its lost its main argument?

341
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Speaker 1: Did it feel like a whole song? Is that section

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Speaker 1: long enough? Is it too long?

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Speaker 3: All that kind of.

344
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Speaker 1: Stuff, and then going back and doing the changes and

345
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Speaker 1: working on them like that, and that was that was

346
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Speaker 1: one of those Some songs come quick in one sort

347
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Speaker 1: of session, and some songs are really like you're just

348
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 1: building it brick by brick and Bill Juce's song for

349
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,800
Speaker 1: that pitch was a real brick by brick song.

350
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Speaker 3: But the Lydia song was much Yeah, it was. It

351
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 3: was very different.

352
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Speaker 1: It was like, Okay, well, she's you know, obviously strange

353
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Speaker 1: and unusual. She's you know, dark and gothic, she's macarbs,

354
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Speaker 1: she's focused on you know, the death, on death in

355
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Speaker 1: the after life. She's kind of a morbid, angsty teenager.

356
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Speaker 1: And it just made sense to me that, you know,

357
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 1: the kind of song that she would sing, and the

358
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,920
Speaker 1: brief of that song was, you know, her opening number,

359
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Speaker 1: which is really about being stuck in this kind of lame,

360
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Speaker 1: white picket fence suburban house with a father who refuses

361
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 1: to talk about the death of the recent death of

362
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Speaker 1: her mother. She's alone, she's disconnected. She just wants to

363
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,639
Speaker 1: get out of that place. She wants to reconnect with

364
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 1: the feeling of being with her mother who totally accepted,

365
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,880
Speaker 1: understood and celebrated her strangeness and her unusualness, and she's

366
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 1: a total fish out of water where she is. And

367
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,439
Speaker 1: I was like, well, that sounds like a girl in

368
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Speaker 1: her bedroom with a Fender guitar plugged into a little amp,

369
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 1: indie rock, kind of angsty teen sort of rock song,

370
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:52,400
Speaker 1: I guess, alternative rock song.

371
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,200
Speaker 3: So that was sort of a little easy to write

372
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 3: because you know, you get out your guitar and to

373
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,680
Speaker 3: start to play, you know. So yeah, that was a

374
00:19:58,720 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 3: process for the two songs.

375
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:03,680
Speaker 1: Y different, but but you know, like kind of important.

376
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:05,639
Speaker 3: And that's really weird because that's the pitch.

377
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,720
Speaker 1: You know, that's the before you even got the job,

378
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 1: you're solving like one of the biggest issues of the

379
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,160
Speaker 1: of the show, you know.

380
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 2: Fascinating process. I want to delve into the Beatlejuice song

381
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 2: a bit more like the way you describe it. It

382
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 2: sounds kind of part creative but part analytical. Is is

383
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 2: that sort of fair to say in terms of the

384
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 2: writing process.

385
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's a few jobs in one like.

386
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 2: This.

387
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:38,360
Speaker 1: There's obviously the lyrics influence music and music influence lyrics,

388
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:44,439
Speaker 1: you know, because before you even get started, there are

389
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 1: two things I kind of want to think about. One

390
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 1: of them is how do I want an audience to feel?

391
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 1: And what's the temperature of this song? As we're kind

392
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 1: of being an actor also comes in handy, like where

393
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 1: what is the frequency that this character is sort of like,

394
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, vibrating on at this point in the show.

395
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 1: And you really have to kind of harness that sense

396
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,959
Speaker 1: of feeling and then and then find the music that

397
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 1: expresses exactly that sentiment.

398
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 3: You can't.

399
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 1: Sometimes you can work against that, but normally you're like,

400
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,640
Speaker 1: you need to. The music needs to reflect that kind

401
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,360
Speaker 1: of state of mind. And before I can write anything,

402
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: before you know, I can start, you know, playing with

403
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 1: I don't know a chord progression or or or a

404
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 1: rhythmic feel or a mood or a tone.

405
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 3: You need to know what the idea is. You know,

406
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 3: what is the idea?

407
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 1: And for me, like if I can write the title

408
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 1: of a song it has the idea in it, then

409
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, without being too glib, about

410
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 1: eighty percent of the song is done, so you know

411
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 1: the song. So for example, Beatlejuice of songs called the

412
00:21:54,920 --> 00:22:00,439
Speaker 1: whole being dead thing and.

413
00:21:59,160 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 3: The point of that.

414
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,880
Speaker 1: You know, when I landed on that, I was like, okay, well,

415
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,679
Speaker 1: this is all about going you're dead, but don't worry.

416
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: I'm going to be the conduit between You'm going to

417
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 1: be the person that eases you into the afterlife, and

418
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to sell you the after life is kind

419
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 1: of great place and a place that you know that

420
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 1: requires me to navigate it. You know, don't worry. I

421
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 1: got this, I got you. I'll be your guide to

422
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: the other side kind of vibe. And so once that

423
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 1: idea is there, you go, okay, well that's my hook,

424
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 1: that's my chorus. The title of the song is going

425
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: to be kind of a hook, and you get to

426
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 1: decide where you put that. You can put that at

427
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 1: the end of a verse phrase, or you can save

428
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 1: it for a chorus and you can start a chorus

429
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 1: with that, or you can end a chorus with that

430
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: particular lyricals. And it should always be tied to a

431
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 1: really strong melodic idea, because you want those things that

432
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 1: are going to really you know, the reason it's called

433
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 1: a hook is because it sticks into the listener. You

434
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 1: want to tie the main central argument and thought of

435
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 1: that if you want to the trunk of the tree

436
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 1: to like a killer malady, so that those two things

437
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 1: in tandem really stick inside the listener's brain, and then

438
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: everything that comes around.

439
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 3: It, the versus the bridge section.

440
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 1: They're all like kind of branches that come off that tree,

441
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 1: but they all support and come back to that central

442
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: hook the whole time, so that you never feel an

443
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: audience is never like where are we in this song?

444
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 3: Like what is being said? You know, a.

445
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: Bridge is a place where you can drift laterally a

446
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: little bit and go We're going to go over here

447
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 1: a little bit, or I'm going to give you a

448
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 1: bit of backstory, or or the character's going to lament

449
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: something they lost, or or they're going to speculate and

450
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: what might come or whatever. And then and then it

451
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 1: sucks back into the main part of the song and

452
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: you're away again, normally with like a kind of a

453
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: lift that might be a key change or something like that.

454
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: That's sort of in crude terms, every song differs, but

455
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 1: they're sort of the building blocks that you've got to

456
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: play with in constructing that. And all of it is

457
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: about servicing the idea, So it's part like it's a

458
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 1: part musical creativity. It's part lyrical creativity, and then once

459
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: you've got sections, it becomes design. So you go, okay,

460
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: well I want another verse here. How am I going

461
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: to advance the argument lyrically and also be able to,

462
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: you know, also be able to provide something new, So

463
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: we're not just hearing the same necessarily, the same music

464
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: might have the same chord progression, but you can change that.

465
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 3: Maybe the scansion of the lyrics comes faster.

466
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 1: Now all those things that are really about then going okay, well,

467
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: I've got this section, and now I have to write

468
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: a new lyric that's going to fit this section. So

469
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: it's kind of a weird collaboration. It all swirls around,

470
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 1: you know, and inside the one brain. Whereas if I

471
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: had a writing partner, we would separate those jobs out

472
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,479
Speaker 1: and there would be a back and forth between us.

473
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: But I kind of have to do all of that myself,

474
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: and it's a little you know, sometimes those two things

475
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: work together really well. Sometimes they don't, and then you

476
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: have to find a way to break the pattern and go, okay, well,

477
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to write this lyric

478
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: at the piano. I need to take my book and

479
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: I need to go and sit in a park and

480
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: I need to write the lyric there, or I need

481
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: to think about the music away from an instrument, where

482
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: I've got all of my patterns and my habits and

483
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: my history and you know, the things that make music

484
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: sound really lame. I'm kind of tethered to that because

485
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 1: of my skill or my lack of skill on the piano.

486
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: You know, everyone's limited by their own ability, But musically,

487
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: I can be much more creative sometimes when I'm nowhere

488
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: near an instrument, and then you know, you can be

489
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: away writing lyrics. Sometimes it's singing melodic ideas into the

490
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,719
Speaker 1: voice memo of your phone and then going home and

491
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: trying to capture that. It's all sorts of things. It's

492
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: kind of a crazy dance.

493
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: It sounds like it. And I'm I'm curious with coming

494
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: up with the title. You said, that's that's the very

495
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 2: first and possibly the most important job. Like what does

496
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 2: that look like for you? Is that like days of

497
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: jotting down all sorts of ideas. Does it come in

498
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: as spark of inspiration? Like how did it happen for

499
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 2: the Beatlejuice song? So I love that title. That's that's

500
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 2: so cool.

501
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: I can't remember where the whole being dead thing came from.

502
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 1: I think it might be a I think it might

503
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: even be a line from the film.

504
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 3: It was certainly, it was certainly in the script.

505
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: At one point you said, you know, I'm here to

506
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: help you with the whole being dead thing, and I

507
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, the whole being dead thing. That's that's great.

508
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: That's a great title for a song. So that was

509
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: kind of the clue there. But with Lydia's song in

510
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: the original script, she had a magic She had a

511
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: magic eight ball that she called dead Mum, and she

512
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: would talk to it as if it was a mother,

513
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: but in a kind of a rye and ironic way,

514
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: And most of that was about kind of trolling her father,

515
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: who refused to talk about the death of his wife.

516
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 1: So she sort of was dragging the memory and the

517
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: presence of her mother into their life constantly, really just

518
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: to try and provoke a reaction out of her father

519
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 1: to get him to talk about it. And it existed

520
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: as a physical object, so she would sort of sing

521
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: to this magic eight ball and I love just like

522
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: the you know, dead mom as a title is great,

523
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: and you know, being able to start a song that's like.

524
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 3: Dead Mom, Dead Mom. I know you're probably busy and

525
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 3: every shake just makes you dizzy. You know.

526
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: That kind of singing to the eight ball stuff kind

527
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: of came quite easily, and it was a kind of

528
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: a mantra. She would sort of every verse sort of

529
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: begame with dead mom, and it repeated dead mom over

530
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: and over again, and that was sort of like kind

531
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: of you know, finding I do like a kind of

532
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: a sardonic way through the teen angst, where she like,

533
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: she knows that what she's doing is totally morbid and weird,

534
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: and she knows it's kind of futile and pointless that

535
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: her mother doesn't exist inside a magic eight ball, or

536
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: she doesn't exists as a disembodied sort of spirit floating around.

537
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: But she does have a sense that, even though she

538
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: knows she's playing this kind of game with herself, that

539
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: she really does need this externalized version of a mother

540
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: to talk to.

541
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: And when you're writing a song, how do you know

542
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 2: when it's finished?

543
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's really it's really complicated, and it's always

544
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: it's always changing, And I mean every time you hit

545
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: send on an email to send off a demo or

546
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: to send.

547
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 3: Off a script.

548
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: It's always excruciating because it's not finished and it is

549
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,479
Speaker 1: going to change, and I think, you just go, this

550
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: is the this is a you know, I'm happy with

551
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: where this is sitting right now, and it's good enough

552
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: to put in the pile. And I probably used to

553
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: be a little bit more like perfect it's done, like Bravo,

554
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: And now I'm like, well, this is where it's at.

555
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: This is where it's at now. It's always like you know,

556
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: you never, you never, kind of you always handing in

557
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: with some men.

558
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 3: There's there's more.

559
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And when when you talk about your your

560
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 2: process for writing those songs, it sounds like changing locations

561
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: or maybe just the flexibility to write from different locations

562
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: is a key part of your process. I'm curious how

563
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 2: how does that work in practice? Like you do you

564
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: deliberately change locations to change your state or do you

565
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: change locations because it's just trying to write around the

566
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 2: logistics of your life.

567
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's both, and then you know, one kind of

568
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: influences the other. So I know that if I get

569
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: out of the house, you know, I can go like

570
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: I'm in Central Park right now and I'm actually staring

571
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: at an eagle was quite amazing, beautiful big horn. Wow, Yeah,

572
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: just landed on a branch right next to me. So

573
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: that's nothing to do with my process. It's just what something.

574
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, you like I sometimes if I need to

575
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: just rewrite lyrics and I don't need to be sitting

576
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: at a table or at a at a in my

577
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: house where there's not really anything to look at and

578
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: where you know, there's a fucking fridge that's you know,

579
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: in years, like I might eat something, or I might

580
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: make a cup of coffee or whatever. Like getting out

581
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: of the house and going to the path to write,

582
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: which I do quite a lot, is great because I

583
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: can just sit down at a bench with my with

584
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: my book and there's nothing nothing to do except write.

585
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: So that's that's about focus, I think for me, And

586
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: I go, okay, well, I know I'm writing words, so

587
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: I don't need to be near a piano right now,

588
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: and then I'll take that work back to the keyboard

589
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: and then I'll make the track with that with that work,

590
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: and that seems to be better. Like ifen I'm writing

591
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: script stuff sometimes, like when I've been writing plays, I

592
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: often write in cafes, which is weird because there's a

593
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: lot going.

594
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 3: On, a lot of people going around, moving around you.

595
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,239
Speaker 1: But there's something that makes me really you know, like

596
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: you know, you have to buy a coffee and drink

597
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: it incredibly slowly or find it, you know, the shitt'st

598
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: cafe where no one goes in there and they don't

599
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: mind you taking up a table, but you're there to work.

600
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: You know, you're not. There's nothing else to do. You're

601
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: not going to sit there and muck around.

602
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 3: You know.

603
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: There's a focus about being in a cafe and writing

604
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: that's really useful to me. And then there it's just

605
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: the grind of sitting at a keyboard and writing it,

606
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: which is its own sort of space as well. And

607
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: so I kind of try and you know, move between

608
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: those sort of three worlds constantly, depending on what I've

609
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: got to do. Like sometimes I'll write, you know, a

610
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: whole bunch of music and I go, okay, great, I've

611
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: got a verse, I've got a chorus. But now I

612
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: need to write, you know, verse two. I need to

613
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: write a bridge. I need to write you know, a

614
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: final chorus. I'm going to go to the park and

615
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to write that there, you know, and it's

616
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: also it's kind of a weird thing. Some problems can't

617
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: just be tackled by sitting directly and looking at them,

618
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: you know. You sometimes you need to just walk some

619
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: as you need to walk around well, I mean, I

620
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: need to walk around and like almost like reset my

621
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 1: brain and look at the problem in a different way,

622
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: sometimes not look at the problem. It takes a little

623
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: bit of a discipline in that, because you can wander

624
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: off and get distracted from the process of hand and

625
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: the task at hand completely. But I generally find that

626
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: I live with it in my head. You know, whenever

627
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: you see those kind of TV ads and they're always

628
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: banging on about how you can have like four hundred

629
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: devices and you just get one device and you flick

630
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 1: your hand and then your file ends up on your

631
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: laptop and now it's on your phone, and then it's

632
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: on your iPad, and you know, it's a little bit

633
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: like that, you know, handing it over into different worlds

634
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: continuously and walking around like that. Sometimes it's just good

635
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: to walk around listening to the song on repeat in

636
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: my ears having recorded it it, because then you start

637
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: that's about as objective as a songwriter can get about

638
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: their own work. You go, well, this Brian doesn't line up,

639
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: or this argument isn't clear anymore, all those sorts of things.

640
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: So it's it's sort of a bizarre combination of location

641
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: focus and then what I.

642
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 3: Would call the lateral drift.

643
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: Where you know you need, you know, you need to

644
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: just kind of let it swirl around, move around with it,

645
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: find a new way in, and then come back and

646
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: focus on it again.

647
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 2: I heard you say in an interview that you should

648
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: compete with yourself and not others, and it reminded me

649
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: of that quote, and I think it goes something like

650
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 2: comparison is the death of joy. And I feel like

651
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: that's really interesting, and particularly in in you know, such

652
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: a creative field that you work in, I imagine there's ample

653
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: opportunities to compare yourself with others. I was curious as

654
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: to what led you to that insight and how do

655
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: you actually apply it, because I imagine that would be

656
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: very hard to apply.

657
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: One of the most obvious ones is just an attitude,

658
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: one like rather than rather than going and seeing a

659
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: piece of theater and getting all.

660
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 3: Depressed by it.

661
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: And competitive and going you know, well, you know I

662
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: could never do that or I would have done that

663
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: much better. A big part of it for me is

664
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: about celebrating other people's work and being inspired by other

665
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: people's work and not letting it get you down, because

666
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the time, the stuff that

667
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: I really like, I just know I couldn't write.

668
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 3: I don't write like that.

669
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: And so, you know, there's a lot of past what

670
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: they call pastich music theater, which is where you write

671
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: in the style of somebody else. Normally, as for King Kong,

672
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: for example, all the songs were contemporary in style. But

673
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: then there are a couple of moments where on stage

674
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: the scene would require a whole bunch of actors to

675
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: be singing a nineteen thirties style Broadway song in like

676
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: a rehearsal or something like that, or an audition, and

677
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: so in that point, you know you're going, Okay, well,

678
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 1: I need to write something that sounds you know, I'm

679
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: going to listen to a whole bunch of Broadway musicals

680
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: from nineteen thirties, and I'm going to do my own

681
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: version of that music because it needs to sound like

682
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: that world. I think it's good to have your own

683
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: voice and to find your own own voice, and even

684
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: though I like, for example, a composer like Janine Tazori,

685
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: who wrote, amongst other things, she wrote violets. She wrote

686
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 1: fun Home, which won a Tony Award here on Broadway

687
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago.

688
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: It's an incredible piece.

689
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,479
Speaker 1: You know, her process is very integrated, where you can't

690
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: even begin to really understand where where the song begins

691
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 1: and the and ends, and the scene starts and ends,

692
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: and often you know there's music fully integrated inside the

693
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: scene and song comes in and out of it. Whereas

694
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: I tend to start a song and even though you

695
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: can have inside it what you know you might call

696
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: book over, which is like basically, you know, the song

697
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: is happening, but now there's going to be a bit

698
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: of music, and the characters are going to do a scene,

699
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: but then we're going to come back into the song.

700
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 3: There, that's all. That's all fine.

701
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: But I tend to think of things like songs, even

702
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: if they're really long. You know that that I'm always

703
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: creating and kind of a song structure is a big

704
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: part of how I how I write. So I guess, like,

705
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: you know, you can't use other people's rules to influence.

706
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 3: You can't be anybody else.

707
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: Really well, I can't really be anybody else apart from myself,

708
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: but what I can be is influenced and inspired by

709
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: the way people have solved other writers have solved problem.

710
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 3: That you know. That's that's a creative approach to it.

711
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 1: But the other one is more just like life, you know,

712
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: Like one thing about this art form is incredibly heartbreaking.

713
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: Things that are really great can sometimes fail miserably or

714
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: be or people just don't like them, or they don't

715
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,439
Speaker 1: find an audience, or the idea is not a doesn't

716
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: arrive at the right time. And sometimes things that are

717
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: really fucking ordinary get lavish with praise because it's what

718
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: people want to hear at that particular time, or because

719
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, because it's a reaction to the times that

720
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: we live in, you know, like that's you know, the

721
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: for example, a musical like Hamilton is very it was

722
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 1: not only a genius piece of art, but it arrived

723
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: under Obama's administration. It's very much got that inside at

724
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: the DNA. It was the right idea at the right time.

725
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: Whereas now, you know, we're in a very different climate.

726
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: People are looking at theater in all sorts of different ways,

727
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 1: and the ideas that resonate are often stories about the

728
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 1: individual who learns to to accept themselves and create an

729
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: environment where other people accept themselves and accept others in

730
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: a non judgmental way. That's a really massive theme, that

731
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: just be you theme, you know, the the don't judge

732
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: other don't judge other people, accept other people, that we

733
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: can all live in this great kind of ecosystem of

734
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: different personalities, different sexuality, different races. It's kind of a

735
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:33,720
Speaker 1: homogeneous like kind of utopia. That's a very big theme.

736
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: That's the theme that runs through Kinky Boots for examples.

737
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: It runs through the prom which is on Broadway at

738
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: the moment. You know, dear of enhancing is similar to

739
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: that the outsider who struggles to find acceptance but then

740
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: but then does you know? That's really strong theme in

741
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: music theater a lot of the time that they're the

742
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: shows that sort of seemed to succeed, and so a

743
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 1: lot of the time it's really difficult to compare your

744
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 1: success with other people's success. And at some point, you know,

745
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: this industry and this world is going to hand your

746
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: ass to you no matter what you do, and you

747
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: just have to kind of.

748
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 3: Accept it.

749
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: Learn what you can learn and move onto the next thing.

750
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean that it's not incredibly like distressing and painful

751
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: when it happens. But my main thing is, you know,

752
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: my ambition extends to obviously trying to create something as

753
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: new and distinctly me as I can possibly put on stage,

754
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: and that includes, you know, the way I'd look at

755
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: the world, but also my sense of humor, but also

756
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: how I what I think about music and how I

757
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: like to play with musical form. You know, that's a

758
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,439
Speaker 1: big part of how I want to express myself through

759
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: my writing. And I obviously you know, have ambitions that

760
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 1: I'll do really well. It would be really great to

761
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: be able to make some money and afford to live

762
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: in this ridiculous expensive city and pay the bills and

763
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: do all sorts of things making money out of my

764
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: but really what I want, what I want more than anything,

765
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: is to be able to stay, is to be able

766
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: to have the next job, to be you know, to

767
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: be able to write the next thing, and that's you know,

768
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: that's not guaranteed.

769
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 3: You know.

770
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk about reviews because I feel

771
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 2: like for those that are not working in a in

772
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: a creative field where a review basically consists of a

773
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: one on one conversation with your boss in terms of

774
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 2: expressing positive or negative feedback, Like the world that you're in,

775
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 2: it's so public, like someone gets to talk about your work,

776
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: whether they like it or they don't, to the rest

777
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: of the world, which is kind of I feel like

778
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: a little bit crazy to comprehend for those that are

779
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 2: not in that world. And I want to know, like

780
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 2: your approach to dealing with reviews that aren't that positive,

781
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: like you someone that reads reviews, and how like, how

782
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: do you emotionally kind of cope with with bad reviews.

783
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 3: Well, I've had a lot of practice.

784
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, I am you know, I'm still here. I'm still here,

785
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: and I'm and like I feel like my you know,

786
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: each each opportunity has been kind of getting bigger and

787
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: at least in terms of kind of the scale of things,

788
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: you know, Like I've gone from you know, writing a

789
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: cab a cabaret for my that I wrote myself out

790
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: of drama school that I think probably costs two and

791
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: a half thousand dollars all up to put on stage,

792
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: to now of my own money, which was a lot

793
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: at the time, and to now progressing to the point

794
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 1: where King Kong is a thirty five million dollar production.

795
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: Beetlejuice is a twenty two million dollar production. Like kind

796
00:41:54,480 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: of staggering amounts of money that you know that probably

797
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: bear thinking about too much because it just seems like

798
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: an extraordinary amount of money to spend. But presumably, well, obviously,

799
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: if you have a success, that money is returned to

800
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: you many times over, and it's worth the investment. But

801
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: it's risky because nine out of ten Broadway shows failed

802
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: to recoup their capital investment, so the statistics are kind

803
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: of against you. But I'm still writing, you know, like

804
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger and better things, despite the fact that

805
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: I can't remember the last time I.

806
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 3: Got a good review.

807
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: Like I it's like, and I think some particularly uncharitable

808
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: person wrote to me on Twitter and was like, why

809
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: do you keep getting jobs when nobody likes your nobody

810
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: likes your writing? And I was like, that's a really

811
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: good that's a really good question. I mean, obviously, obviously

812
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: the people that employ me aren't idiot. I would hope

813
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: they're not idiots, and I don't think that there are

814
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: any kind of accidents. But I tend to write stuff

815
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: that's polar as people and you know, like everything from

816
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: the plays that I've written, to the comedy shows that

817
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: I've written through to you know, Shane warn the musical

818
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: for example. You know, it's split people down the middle.

819
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: You know, people loved it, some people hated it a

820
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 1: lot of the time. You know, with a new idea

821
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: that it's particularly kind of audacious and bold, people sort

822
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: of hate it. But then eventually people can kind of

823
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: like acclimate to the idea and it becomes a little

824
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: more palatable. And I don't sort of set out to

825
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: kind of ruffle any feathers, but it's just this fact

826
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: of my career. If I look back, I've kind of

827
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: gotten mixed reviews, and so it's very no one wants

828
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: to get a no one wants.

829
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 3: To get a bad review.

830
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: Also, technically, reviews aren't really any of my business. And

831
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: what really matters is what an audience thinks, because I mean,

832
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: if you had to make a choice as a person

833
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 1: that makes a living out of art, you know, do

834
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: you want to have good reviews but have nobody come

835
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: and see your shows and make no money out of it,

836
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: or would you like to have bad reviews and sell

837
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: your shows and have audiences love it? And be able

838
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: to continue making a living. And much as it's great

839
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 1: to be critically affirmed, it's much better to actually have

840
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: an audience. And sometimes you don't have to choose between

841
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 1: those things. Sometimes you get an audience and you get

842
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: a great critical response. So it's kind of a complicated thing,

843
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: and I think every artist kind of comes to their

844
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: own peace or whatever with it. But I must say

845
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: that I've always been really philosophical about it because I

846
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: remember my first review is so bad, and I really

847
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: it was really wounding, and you know, performing that show,

848
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: so I had to go out on stage and in

849
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: my head, I thought that everybody had read that review

850
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: and they were sort of sitting there in judgment of me,

851
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: and it was awful sort of place to be. And

852
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 1: I had to get to a point where I was like,

853
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: you can't worry about that stuff. I mean, now I

854
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: can read reviews of them, and there's certainly been like

855
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: King Kong and like severely negative critical feedback, but he's

856
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: working with audiences.

857
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 3: Beatlejuice offended half the.

858
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: Critics in DC and the other half really loved it

859
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: and open over the course of the season, we started

860
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 1: to see the kind of audience that we we were retracting,

861
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: and they were like really interesting, kooky audience, kind of

862
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 1: cultish audiences, people coming back multiple times, people who had

863
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: learnt the songs and would shout out lines and sing songs.

864
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 3: I'm like, I.

865
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: Couldn't believe it was crazy, you know. And so there

866
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: are like a lots it's different sort of levels of

867
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: reality you have to deal with, but one thing that

868
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: is really you know, I was even talking about this

869
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,399
Speaker 1: last night. I had a drink with Alex Timbers, who's

870
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: the director of Beele Juice, and we're talking about reviewers,

871
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: and he.

872
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 3: Reminded me of that.

873
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 1: There's a great Teddy Roosevelt quote. I don't know if

874
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: you know it. It's the one about one about the

875
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 1: man that's in the arena with you know, I should

876
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: dig it out and actually quote it because I'm going

877
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: to paraphrase it terribly and everyone will hate me. But

878
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: but you know, like there is something that people who

879
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: make things know, which is that it is really hard

880
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: to make stuff. It is really hard to offer it

881
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: up for judgment. It is hard to get things right.

882
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: We don't always get things right, but everybody works very

883
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: very hard to put their best foot forward. Creatively. And

884
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 1: what happens when you get criticized sometimes is it can

885
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: feel like the critical response comes from a kind of

886
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 1: a really sort of some of it that comes from

887
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: quite a heartless, thoughtless place. And that is the hard

888
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 1: stuff to do.

889
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 3: To take. Someone that has a has.

890
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: A a smart, critical, considered approach to your work but

891
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: fucking hates it is much easier to take than somebody

892
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: that is like, what what the fuck with these people?

893
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: Thinking they're idiots?

894
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

895
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 1: And then they don't They don't actually review the show

896
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: because nobody sets out to make something bad. Everybody puts

897
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: multiple years for mostly very little remuneration into their work.

898
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: And by the time, you know, critic danes to put

899
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: his or her ass in a seat for what two

900
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: and a half hours within deval and then go home

901
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: and spends be generous maybe an hour writing a review.

902
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: It's very a little part of their life, very small

903
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: part of their life when you consider the amount of

904
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 1: times gone into it. But I think if you don't

905
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: make stuff, you don't know. And we were saying that

906
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: we think the critics should all have to make something.

907
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: Every one of them should make something and offer it up,

908
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: whether it's writing a book or because I've never you know,

909
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: and this is not you know, there's a great maximums

910
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 1: there's never you know, never pick a fight with someone

911
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: who buys ink by the barrel, and that's a you

912
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:32,720
Speaker 1: cannot win against critics.

913
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 3: You can't.

914
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: You know, like some writers get really incensed about a

915
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: bad review and they write the paper and this is

916
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: disgraceful and you know, this person's an idiots and they

917
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: don't know what the hell they're talking about. But you

918
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 1: cannot win that, and it makes you look bad. You really, really,

919
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: I really think you just have to go this is

920
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: none of my business, this review. They're gonna write what

921
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: they want, and you've got to get on with the

922
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,439
Speaker 1: with the with the with the job at hand, which

923
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: is just making stuff.

924
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 3: But at the same time it is and it is.

925
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: Incredibly frustrating when you know that there's a sort of

926
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: a lacker, there's a snark and a lack of respect

927
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 1: for makers. And I have infinite respect for anyone that

928
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: makes anything and offersite up for judgment. It might not

929
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: be my cup of tea, but I think if I'm

930
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: being paid to analyze it in a critical way, then

931
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: you bet your ass. I think that I would have

932
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,240
Speaker 1: to do my homework. What else has this person written?

933
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: What are they writing about? What are they trying to say?

934
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 1: Why does it work? Why does it not work? You know,

935
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: inside the context of who we are today and the

936
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: world that we live. And I think that every piece

937
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 1: that you're paid to go and watch deserves that much respect.

938
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: And unfortunately that doesn't. That doesn't always happen. Sometimes it does,

939
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: and a great reviewer is always great, someone that understands

940
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: your work. But the best of times, it's like it's

941
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: just something you have to fucking deal with. And it's like,

942
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 1: if it goes your way, then good. You pull out

943
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 1: a quote, you put it on the post, you try

944
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: to sell it. If it doesn't go your way, you

945
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: ignore it and you move. It's a tool that either

946
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: works for you or doesn't work for you. But you

947
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: can't write for reviewers.

948
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 2: That's great, great advice. You mentioned Twitter a little bit

949
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: earlier ago, and I'm curious about your relationship with social

950
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 2: media and like how how you kind of spend your

951
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: time there? And I guess then don't spend your time

952
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,879
Speaker 2: like getting engaged in you know, what some would call

953
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 2: sort of digital distractions particularly when you're in the creative process, Like,

954
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 2: what does that look like for you? Are you sort

955
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 2: of sort of dipping in and out of social media?

956
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 2: Do you try to avoid it for large periods of

957
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 2: time when you're doing creative work? What does that look like.

958
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 3: Here? I mean, I don't.

959
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: I don't I spend a huge amount of time on

960
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: social media, but it is a really great tool to

961
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 1: be connected with what people are doing in the world.

962
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: So I kind of across you know, what what musicals

963
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: are being made, what theater is being made, what films

964
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: are being made, what my friend who are creators or

965
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: actors are doing? You know, that's sort of to be

966
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: part of a community of you know, a global community

967
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: of people who are making theater is really important. And

968
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: it's also important because anyone that writes theater is writing

969
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: for human beings that live inside the world, and you

970
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: need to know what that world is.

971
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 3: You need to be part of that world.

972
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: And social media is a really quick shorthand way of

973
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: having access to what's going on in the world and

974
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 1: whether that's you know, I think I would say that

975
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: it looks probably one hundred percent of my news reading

976
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: articles and things is from following following media publications all

977
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,280
Speaker 1: over the world. You know, that's that's where that stuff

978
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: comes from, you know, like knowing about what books are

979
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: being written, or what also is being written, or what

980
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: people are talking about, you know, or following people who

981
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: are opinion leaders, you know, like you know, like if

982
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 1: you don't know, it's important to know what the attitudes

983
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: are towards you know, ethnicity, or sexuality, or gender or

984
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: gender fluidity or or you know, any you know, what

985
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,359
Speaker 1: the trans community are saying at the moment. Like all

986
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: that stuff is really important because if you don't know

987
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,240
Speaker 1: what is happening in the world, and you become tone

988
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: deaf and you just end up stepping on a million

989
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: land lines.

990
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not particularly interested in being.

991
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 1: You know, quote unquote woke, and sometimes you know, I

992
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 1: read concepts that I wrestle with immediately, but I try

993
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 1: to be kind of as open minded as possible, and

994
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, social.

995
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 3: Media is a part.

996
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 1: It's not all of it, but it's a part of

997
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: the conversation you have with the world. And when you

998
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: write a show, you're also doing what social media does,

999
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 1: which you are having a compasion about the world in

1000
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: which you live. So I think it's I think it's

1001
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: kind of important. I used to probably try to express

1002
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: myself more on social media and I and just through

1003
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: I mean, Twitter is a bit of a fucking cesspool,

1004
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: you know, like everyone's angry on Twitter, and humor is

1005
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 1: difficult and things can kind of blow up, and everyone

1006
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: likes to you know, like, yeah, it's like a it's

1007
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: a torrid place. And then you go over to to

1008
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: Instagram and it's all like, you know, puppies and lattes

1009
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: and people photographing their breakfast and pictures of flowers and culture.

1010
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: You can cultivate and curate your own experience there doesn't

1011
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: have to be negative. One of the biggest things my

1012
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: wife and I discovered was that you don't have to

1013
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,919
Speaker 1: follow people that piss you off, you know, like Ricky

1014
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,320
Speaker 1: Gervaise seems like an arrogant dick. Stop following Ricky Gervais.

1015
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 3: You know, you don't have to. You don't have to

1016
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 3: engage with that.

1017
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 1: You know. I like birds, so my Twitter, my Instagram

1018
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,240
Speaker 1: feed like birds.

1019
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 3: Unlike that.

1020
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: My wife watches videos of people riding horses. She likes horses,

1021
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: you know, so it's kind of like that's you know,

1022
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 1: I don't see it as a positive or a negative force.

1023
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: It's just like humanity and a massive dump and you've

1024
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: got to try and choose the way through it.

1025
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 3: But it also is great for ideas.

1026
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: Ideas can come from anywhere, and I think you have

1027
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: to kind of be open to them.

1028
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1029
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 2: I like that. It's kind of in a world that

1030
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: I feel is quite negative towards social media. It's it's

1031
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 2: quite nice actually hearing you know what positive parts that

1032
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 2: can be taken from what's going on there. Now we

1033
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 2: are pretty much out of time, Eddie's. So my final

1034
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 2: question is if people want to learn more about what

1035
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 2: you're up to and see things that you are doing,

1036
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 2: where can they seek you out if they are in

1037
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 2: New York or if they are not in New York.

1038
00:54:56,280 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 1: Well, I am like perennially hopeless that running a website.

1039
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 3: I just I tried.

1040
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 1: I've tried about seventy different times, but I just can't

1041
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: get behind it. But I don't I don't know, like

1042
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 1: I I I'm not sure.

1043
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 3: If you're in New York, you can come and see

1044
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:21,760
Speaker 3: King Kong. If you're if you're in New York next March,

1045
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 3: you can come and see beetlejuice. Apart from that, you know,

1046
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't I don't really know what

1047
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 3: I don't really know what.

1048
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: Else is going on. And I'm and I'm very not good.

1049
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 1: I'm not very good at like, you know, curating it

1050
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: only ones. But you know, there's like various weird little

1051
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: things on YouTube of all the projects I've done over

1052
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 1: the last little while.

1053
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 3: But you know, I certainly haven't made it easy for anyone.

1054
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 1: To go to one, you know, a one stop shop

1055
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: and and you know, like immerse themselves in all things

1056
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: Eddie Perfect because I think, probably without sounding callous, I

1057
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: probably don't really care care.

1058
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 3: That much, you know, like I've got like, yeah, I've

1059
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 3: always been really shit at.

1060
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: That stuff, you know, like I don't have everything organized

1061
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 1: in one place, and I don't know. I oscillate between

1062
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,879
Speaker 1: going Jesus that you get your act together and get

1063
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 1: you know, and get organized, and just going you know what,

1064
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 1: I'm I'm good.

1065
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 2: Well, that's awesome that that's probably the most unusual answer

1066
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 2: I've had to that question. But that is a lightful.

1067
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 1: I can't help you, I can't I can't help I'm sorry.

1068
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 3: I live on the.

1069
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: Upper West Side of New York, just like I mean literally,

1070
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: anyone that writes to me on social media, and I'm

1071
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 1: on like Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and the my

1072
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: sort of three things. Anyone that writes to me I

1073
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,720
Speaker 1: write I write back to I'm like, I'm.

1074
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 3: Pretty, I'm pretty.

1075
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: I'm pretty good at responding to most things, unless they're

1076
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: kind of like there's a whiff of crazy in the

1077
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,800
Speaker 1: fold back, you know, where you're like, oh, it's best,

1078
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 1: it's best not to engage here. But most of the time, yeah,

1079
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 1: I'm like, I answer people's questions and yeah, I'm I'm

1080
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 1: less and less interested in so of self self promoting them.

1081
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 1: And then things like this, you know, like these I

1082
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:04,879
Speaker 1: enjoy doing these things.

1083
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 3: I don't get.

1084
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 1: Asked very often to do to be on podcasts and stuff,

1085
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: but I enjoy it because I very rarely get to

1086
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 1: kind of say out loud what it is I do

1087
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: or how I think about going about work. And it's

1088
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: great that you do this because I think it's it's

1089
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: it's really useful for people who are thinking of doing it.

1090
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 1: I never thought it was kind of possible to do

1091
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. I sort of fells backwards into it

1092
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: and we often, you know, one of the negatives of

1093
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: social media.

1094
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 3: The people that you know.

1095
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 1: Are great at curating their life and putting it on displays.

1096
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: It can sometimes create a false positive that everything is

1097
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: just the end result of the shiny, finished end product,

1098
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 1: when the reality is that it's an ongoing kind of

1099
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: creative mess. And that's what's good about these podcasts is

1100
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 1: you get to hear everybody's issues that they deal with,

1101
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: how and how they sold them, and then hopefully take

1102
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: the things that work for you and ignore the things

1103
00:57:58,840 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 1: that don't.

1104
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely it kind of demystifies the whole process. Well, look, Eddie,

1105
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 2: I've so loved hearing about your process. It's absolutely fascinating

1106
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:10,920
Speaker 2: and thank you so much for coming on the show.

1107
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 3: Absolute pleasure.

1108
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 2: Hello there, thank you so much for listening, and I

1109
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,439
Speaker 2: hope you enjoyed my interview with Eddie and learning about

1110
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 2: what goes on behind the scenes of a Broadway musical.

1111
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 2: This is the end of the show, and as I

1112
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 2: always request, if you like today's show, please leave a

1113
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 2: review in iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

1114
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 2: And if you're not already a subscriber, then you might

1115
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 2: want to hit the subscribe button. And you will get

1116
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 2: alerted when new episodes drop, which happens to be every

1117
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 2: single week. So thanks for listening and I'll see you

1118
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 2: next time.