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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers now.

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Speaker 2: And it might be one of the most unnatural things

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Speaker 2: we ask of our kids, that we pack them off

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Speaker 2: to school to hang out with a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: kids their age and sit in lesson after lesson, class

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Speaker 2: after class.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Hello, it's doctor Justin Coulson with another Happy Families Podcast

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Speaker 2: episode on ting Kylie my wife podcast partner. We're the parents,

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Speaker 2: have six kids, we're married since the nineteen nineties. We

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Speaker 2: think that our family's going okay most of the time,

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Speaker 2: but every now and again we have this thing happen

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Speaker 2: in our home, Kylie school refusal. We've got a couple

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Speaker 2: of kids, one in particular, who just digsy heels in

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Speaker 2: and says, I'm not going, I've had enough, i don't

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Speaker 2: like it. I'm a glancing at the clock. We like,

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Speaker 2: we've got to go, We've got to go. We've got

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Speaker 2: to go in that space between making it not making

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Speaker 2: its closing. And they're like, hurry up, hurry up. But

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Speaker 2: we know we're not supposed to say hurry up to

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Speaker 2: the kids and it kind of the frustration builds, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: You're really good dealing with it because we've been dealing

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Speaker 2: with it for so long, but it's so tricky.

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Speaker 3: We actually had quite a funny school refusal the other day.

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Speaker 3: We had a house full of sickies except for one child,

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Speaker 3: and that one child was devastated that she was healthy

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Speaker 3: and was refusing to go to school because no one

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Speaker 3: else had to go.

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Speaker 2: They're all sick, but it doesn't matter. Problems of having

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Speaker 2: so many kids. So school refusal is one of those

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Speaker 2: challenges that get brought to me all the time as

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Speaker 2: parents search for answers to try to make their mornings

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Speaker 2: run smoother and help their families to run happier. And

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Speaker 2: when you've got a child who's unwilling to get organized

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Speaker 2: and get out the door for school, it's usually a

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Speaker 2: pretty major impediment to making your family run effectively and

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Speaker 2: make the home work. In recent times, there's been a

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Speaker 2: movement to rename school refusal, and I think there's a

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Speaker 2: reasonable reason for it as well. To suggest that the

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Speaker 2: child is refusing school might suggest or connote that there

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Speaker 2: is something wrong with the child, or that the child

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Speaker 2: needs to have an attitude adjustment or something like that,

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Speaker 2: and then everything will be fine. And at some level

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Speaker 2: there may be some accuracy to that. But if a

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Speaker 2: child doesn't want to go to school, I think maybe

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Speaker 2: we need to look a little deeper because school can

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Speaker 2: be so terribly challenging for so many of our kids

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Speaker 2: for a whole lot of reasons which we can talk

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Speaker 2: about shortly, and it might be one of the most

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Speaker 2: unnatural things we ask of our kids that we pack

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Speaker 2: them off to school to hang out with a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of kids their age and sit in lesson after lessen,

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Speaker 2: class after class in this modern, fast paced society that

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Speaker 2: we're part of. So the more appropriate term I kind

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Speaker 2: of went on a bit of a tangent there, But

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Speaker 2: the more appropriate term is emotion based school avoidance. That's

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Speaker 2: what people are calling it now. Some people are just

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Speaker 2: calling it school can't, as in kids can't go to school.

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Speaker 2: It can't means don't want to in my vocabulary. So

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Speaker 2: I prefer emotion based school avoidance.

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Speaker 3: Because it's the biggest, longest name.

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Speaker 2: I know that it's inconvenient to say it like that,

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Speaker 2: but it highlights what the actual issue is. We've got

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Speaker 2: a child who is having these really big emotions and

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Speaker 2: avoiding school because of the emotions that they're associating with school. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so we're going to call it school refusal on the podcast,

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Speaker 2: but I just want to highlight what we're really dealing

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Speaker 2: with here is school avoidance that's based on big emotions.

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Speaker 3: So where do you want to start with this?

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Speaker 2: Why don't we start with the definition and then we'll

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Speaker 2: talk about where it comes from and then we'll move

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Speaker 2: to some solutions in a sect. Does that sound okay?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 2: So it's really interesting when you look at the research,

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Speaker 2: A lot of scholars don't use the term school refusal.

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Speaker 2: A lot e that that is the one that's most

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Speaker 2: commonly used. But another one is problematic absenteeism. And what

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Speaker 2: we're really talking about here is if your child is

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Speaker 2: missing at least two weeks of school and a school

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Speaker 2: term without a legitimate reason like illness, or if they're

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Speaker 2: having such difficulty attending school for at least two weeks

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Speaker 2: that it significantly interferes with daily life, then you're dealing

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Speaker 2: with what would be known as problematic absenteeism or school refusal.

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Speaker 3: So is there actually has any research being done on

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Speaker 3: the numbers, like what's the percentage.

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Speaker 2: About one to two percent. Somewhere between one and two

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Speaker 2: percent of kids will experience this school refusal that results

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Speaker 2: in problematic absenteeism. Thing is, it's really hard to research

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Speaker 2: it right because when a family's experiencing school refusal at

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Speaker 2: the beginning, this emotion based school avoidance, When that's happening

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Speaker 2: at the beginning, they don't go, oh, do we need

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Speaker 2: to go and get help, we need to sign up

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Speaker 2: for a study, we need to get involved in solutions,

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Speaker 2: because it's only just happened, and then it doesn't happen

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Speaker 2: for a couple of days, but then boom, there it

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Speaker 2: is again. And then it happens three days in a

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Speaker 2: row and the parents say, oh, we should have a

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Speaker 2: chat with the school. Things aren't going so well. And

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Speaker 2: next thing you know, you kind of six months in

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Speaker 2: or twelve months in or three years and you're going,

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Speaker 2: oh man, this is getting worse and worse and worse.

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Speaker 2: So it's hard to get good data on those early

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Speaker 2: stages of school refusal.

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Speaker 3: So most of my experience with our children specifically, but

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Speaker 3: with friends would be that it's really hard to get

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Speaker 3: the kids out the door, but we eventually do. Yes,

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Speaker 3: But you're suggesting that this is actually kids who you

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Speaker 3: just can't get to school.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean sometimes you will get them to school,

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Speaker 2: but they'll be they're tardy, it'll be a late note,

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Speaker 2: or there's so much dysfunction involved in getting them there.

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Speaker 2: There's this huge power struggle that blows up, and as parents,

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Speaker 2: we do the very best we can. Right we sit

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Speaker 2: down and say, hey, what's going on, what's the matter,

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Speaker 2: But our kids often don't know how to verbalize it.

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Speaker 2: They don't know how to say. What you're asking of

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Speaker 2: me is really natural. It feels like it feels like

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Speaker 2: you're asked me to do something. I just want to

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Speaker 2: be with you. I want to be where i'm safe.

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Speaker 2: I want to be involved in your life. I want

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Speaker 2: to be doing the day to day with you. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to have to go here and be with

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Speaker 2: all these people who are unkind to me. And most

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Speaker 2: teachers are amazing, but let's be honest, there are some

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Speaker 2: teachers out there who probably shouldn't be teaching. They're probably

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Speaker 2: not listening to this podcast anyway, but there are some

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Speaker 2: teachers who are not kind, they're not thoughtful, they don't

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Speaker 2: have compassion or perspective, and they're not interested in helping kids.

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Speaker 2: They're just I don't know, wait until retirement or whatever

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Speaker 2: it is. We've all come across some of those teachers.

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Speaker 2: They do exist in our society, just like any other

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Speaker 2: career path that you might find. And so when you've

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Speaker 2: got a child who is feeling disconnected, having lousy peer experiences,

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Speaker 2: having a terrible relationship with their teacher, experiencing bullying or

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Speaker 2: isolation or ostracism, and they feel that low sense of

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Speaker 2: school belonging, or they're just not doing well academically because

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Speaker 2: they've got learning difficulties or disorders like dyslexia or color blindness,

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Speaker 2: or speech and language challenges or ADHD or ASD, or

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Speaker 2: sensory issues, or if they're coming from a home with

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Speaker 2: abuse or neglect, or parental anxiety or depression or anger

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Speaker 2: or stress, or the parents are like helicoptering and they're

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Speaker 2: too involved, or the family just doesn't function well, or

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Speaker 2: they've got their own anxieties mental health challenges, is it

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Speaker 2: any wonder that they're going to have school avoidance tendencies

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Speaker 2: and they're just the big things that lead to school refusal,

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Speaker 2: Like there's a whole lot of little things as well.

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Speaker 2: And we've experienced this with our kids. Lousy night's sleep,

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Speaker 2: wake up and just feel crappy that day, Like some

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Speaker 2: days you wake up and you're just having a bad day.

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Speaker 2: Or they have a fight with the sibling ten minutes

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Speaker 2: before they've got to walk out. They're not going to school,

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Speaker 2: or they haven't finished their homework or an assignment. They're

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Speaker 2: worried that they're going to get detention or they're going

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Speaker 2: to fail, or they've got an exam. Maybe the day

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Speaker 2: before everyone got invited to a birthday party and they

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Speaker 2: didn't get invited to a birthday party themselves. Oh they've

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Speaker 2: got their period, yeah yeah. Or we had with one

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Speaker 2: of our kids subt teacher. Every time the sub was

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Speaker 2: coming in, she would just refuse to go to school

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Speaker 2: because she didn't feel safe with the sub. Or maybe

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Speaker 2: it's like a peace high levels of self consciousness. That's

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Speaker 2: a long list, but these are all of the reasons

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Speaker 2: that kids might refuse to go to school. They might

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Speaker 2: literally do all that they can to avoid being there

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Speaker 2: because of the big emotions that these issues raise.

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Speaker 3: Well after the break, let's have a discussion about how

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Speaker 3: we can actually help our kids and parents to navigate

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Speaker 3: this long list because it's huge.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got eight solutions. We're going to squeeze them

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Speaker 2: in real tight after the break. If you've got a teen,

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Speaker 2: you're likely already worried about alcohol and drug use. As

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Speaker 2: a parent, you want to know how do we protect them,

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Speaker 2: how do we teach them? How do we know if

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Speaker 2: they're up to something. Pot Pills and parenting will equip

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Speaker 2: and empower you to help your twins and teens navigate

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Speaker 2: one of the most challenging adolescent issues today. Available on

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Speaker 2: the Happy Families webshop.

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Speaker 3: It's a Happy Families podcast, the podcast with a time

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Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now, and You've got

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Speaker 3: eight strategies to help parents get through this.

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Speaker 2: The first thing that you've got to do if your

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Speaker 2: child having big emotions and saying, oh, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: go to school they're trying to avoid it, is have

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Speaker 2: a conversation with them. I know that that's really obvious,

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Speaker 2: but you need to have a soft, gentle, careful conversation

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Speaker 2: where you literally do all you can to understand what's

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Speaker 2: going on for your child and why they're struggling with school.

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Speaker 2: In the first half of this podcast, I went through

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Speaker 2: a list of I don't know, twenty twenty five things

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Speaker 2: that it could be and it might be something different.

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Speaker 3: Again, well, can I suggest that having that in the

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Speaker 3: morning is probably not the best time to have that conversation.

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Speaker 2: Great suggestion, great suggestion. Do it on the weekend, Do

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Speaker 2: it in the evening, Do it a time when everyone's

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Speaker 2: calm and there's no pressure about getting out the door. Definitely,

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Speaker 2: definitely have the conversation. Second idea, we need to understand

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Speaker 2: our kids needs. We need to make sure that they're

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Speaker 2: feeling like they've got good relationships, that they feel confident

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Speaker 2: at school, and they feel like they have a sense

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Speaker 2: of choice. If your child is saying no to school,

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Speaker 2: it's probably because their relationships are lousy, or they're struggling academically,

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Speaker 2: or they feel like there's a lack of control or autonomy,

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Speaker 2: and as parents we need to help them there. If

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Speaker 2: you've got neurodiverse kids, these are going to be big

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Speaker 2: ticket items because often their relationships are in jeopardy, they're struggling,

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Speaker 2: they're feelings of competence in the classroom or at an

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Speaker 2: all time low, and they feel like everyone's always bossing

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Speaker 2: them around and telling them what to do. What's number three,

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Speaker 2: Have a conversation with the teachers, because teachers can help

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Speaker 2: with all sorts of special supports. They might reduce homework,

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Speaker 2: or they might have some special lunchtime activities or come

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Speaker 2: up with a before school assignment. Those kinds of things

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Speaker 2: can really make a difference. And if we can build

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Speaker 2: on a magical relationship with a teacher and can do

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Speaker 2: wonders for overcoming emotion based school avoidance.

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Speaker 3: We moved schools at the beginning of the year and

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Speaker 3: miss Aid has really struggled to kind of get into

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Speaker 3: a new routine, new teachers, new classmates. And it was

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Speaker 3: actually another teacher, not actually her own teacher, that recognized

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Speaker 3: that Emily was really having a hard time in the mornings,

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Speaker 3: and she reached out to us and just kind of said,

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Speaker 3: if you get school early enough, you can come and

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Speaker 3: spend some time with me in my classroom before school starts.

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Speaker 3: And it worked.

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Speaker 2: When you've got something to look forward to, school's exciting

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden.

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Speaker 3: Emily was really really happy.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: Another thing that the school did was they have like

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Speaker 3: a support room, I guess for one of a better word,

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Speaker 3: and Emily can go there in the mornings before school

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Speaker 3: starts with a coloring in book and she can do

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Speaker 3: some coloring in and again it just settles her before

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Speaker 3: she actually has to go and deal with people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Perfect. The fourth thing that I want to mention is

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Speaker 2: based on the New York Times article that I wrote

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Speaker 2: about making Morning's magic. If we can have a calm

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Speaker 2: morning routine that can do wonders because kids aren't amped up,

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Speaker 2: they're not psyched, they're not freaking out because there's so

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Speaker 2: much to do. Making your mornings calm can make a

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Speaker 2: huge difference. Fifteen friendships building up friendships. So if your

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Speaker 2: child is looking forward to catching up with somebody at school,

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Speaker 2: then they're unlikely to be avoiding school because they get

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Speaker 2: to be with people that they love. So I think

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Speaker 2: as much as it requies wise extra effort on the

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Speaker 2: part of parents, and it can be a little bit

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Speaker 2: embarrassing and convenient, challenging, difficult in all those things, if

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Speaker 2: you can find creative ways to help your child to

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Speaker 2: develop and strengthen relationships, like maybe it's a sleepover or

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Speaker 2: a movie afternoon on the weekend, or some extra curricular activities.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you have a joint family picnic at the park

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Speaker 2: and just send a text around and say, hey, we're

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Speaker 2: going to be at this park at this time if

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Speaker 2: you guys would love to come, We'd love to get

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Speaker 2: to know you and bring your kids and it would

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Speaker 2: be fun and the kids can all have a play.

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Speaker 2: That kind of thing draws the kids together, and when

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Speaker 2: it's done well, it can help our children to consolidate relationships.

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Speaker 2: You might even organize for the kids to go to

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Speaker 2: school together. That is, you meet a k away from

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Speaker 2: school and everyone walks together to the school, so your

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Speaker 2: kids are walking with their friends into the school. That

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Speaker 2: relationship is happening before they get through the school gates.

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Speaker 2: Those kinds of ideas I think are going to be

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Speaker 2: really really helpful. Number six and number six, I think

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Speaker 2: we need to expand our view of what the problem

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Speaker 2: could be so we get really narrow focus as parents

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Speaker 2: and we're like, hang on, this is what's causing it,

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Speaker 2: this is what the contributing factors might be. But there

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Speaker 2: are so many possibilities and so many solutions, Like maybe

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Speaker 2: the best solution is just distraction because it's not a

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Speaker 2: major issue, or perhaps you can use the timer in

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Speaker 2: the mornings because your kids are just sort of lacking

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Speaker 2: that drive maybe your child needs to start counting or

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Speaker 2: stimming because of their neurological conditions. Maybe it's meditation or mindfulness,

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Speaker 2: or getting more sleep or having a healthier and heartier breakfast.

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Speaker 2: Maybe Dad is a real trigger for the kids to

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Speaker 2: lose it in the mornings because he adds a level

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Speaker 2: of pressure and stress, and so mom needs to take

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Speaker 2: over or vice versa. Like it could be a change

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Speaker 2: of school is needed, a place with more friends, or

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Speaker 2: a fresh start, and it could be none of those

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Speaker 2: things as well. But I guess what I'm really saying

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Speaker 2: is be open, because there could be so many different

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Speaker 2: ways that you can approach this.

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Speaker 3: There have been plenty of times in our home where Emily,

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Speaker 3: specifically at.

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Speaker 2: The moment she's been the big school is he he's really.

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Speaker 3: Really refusing, And so the idea is that we just

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Speaker 3: have to get in the car. You don't have to

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Speaker 3: go to school, but we've got to get your older

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Speaker 3: sister to school. And so she jumps in the car

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Speaker 3: in her pajamas. I've got a uniform in a bag,

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Speaker 3: and as we're driving along, she just kind of settles

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Speaker 3: into the rhythm and realizes, Oh, it's school time, yes,

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Speaker 3: and without me having to say anything, have an argument

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Speaker 3: with her. It's been a really nice car morning. She

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Speaker 3: ends up doing what needs to be done, and we

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Speaker 3: get to school and she's ready to go.

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Speaker 2: That's it. Yeah, yeah, all right. The last two things,

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Speaker 2: and these are a couple of big ones. Number seven,

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Speaker 2: change schools. Literally, sometimes the best thing you can do

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Speaker 2: is change schools. It can also be the worst thing,

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Speaker 2: so you want to approach it really carefully. But new people,

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Speaker 2: new plays, new faces, new opportunities. Sometimes new starts are tough,

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Speaker 2: but other times it can be really what your kids need.

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Speaker 2: Other things like distance education might be the circuit breaker

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Speaker 2: that you need, even for a short time. We know

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Speaker 2: families that have done that and it's been what their

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Speaker 2: kids needed so that they could come up with some

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Speaker 2: alternative school solutions to just get things going. And the

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Speaker 2: last thing I'm going to highlight is maybe you want

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Speaker 2: to check out some medical advice. Could be undiagnosed as legs,

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Speaker 2: your ADHD or ASD, or anxiety, or any other medical issue,

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Speaker 2: whether it's psychological, neurological, or actually medical. But I would

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Speaker 2: be looking to get a multi disappointary mental health team

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Speaker 2: involved if this is something that's going on and on

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Speaker 2: and on. There's one more big thing that I've got

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Speaker 2: to highlight before we wrap. Traditional school isn't for every child.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I think that traditional school is not really

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Speaker 2: good for a whole lot of kids at all. We

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Speaker 2: force them into this system, this standardized system that demands

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Speaker 2: certain things of them that are not necessarily what they're

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Speaker 2: built for and what's good for them. It's just what

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Speaker 2: the system demands. Research has shown that most parents who

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Speaker 2: decide to home educate their kids because of school refusal

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Speaker 2: report that children's physical and psychological symptoms lesson or disappear,

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Speaker 2: They behave better, their anxiety drops. Sometimes you got to

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Speaker 2: go through like a deschooling process first before you see

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Speaker 2: those improvements, but they do happen. So eight big ideas

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Speaker 2: about what we can do to help our children if

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Speaker 2: they're experiencing school avoidance because of their big emotions I

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Speaker 2: have that's helpful for you. Is there anything that you'd add, Kylie.

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Speaker 3: For me, the biggest game changer was when I recognized

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Speaker 3: that while school is obviously a really important part of

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Speaker 3: the process, taking the pressure off having to attend school

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Speaker 3: has actually been a game changer for our kids. Knowing

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Speaker 3: that there are just some days where I just don't

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Speaker 3: want to get out of bed, and as an adult,

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Speaker 3: I have the capacity to make that decision for myself,

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Speaker 3: but our kids don't. And so even a couple of

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Speaker 3: weeks ago, Emily just didn't want to go to school,

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Speaker 3: and I thought, you know what, I'm just going to

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Speaker 3: keep a home. We had a really nice quiet day together,

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Speaker 3: we got to spend time together, and by the next

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Speaker 3: day she was okay and ready to go back. But

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Speaker 3: so often we get so caught up and just this

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Speaker 3: is how it has to be. And for some parents

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Speaker 3: there isn't any flexibility in their routines and structures because

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Speaker 3: they go to work or things you know that kind

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Speaker 3: of take them out of the house. But where you

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Speaker 3: can be flexible, just giving your children a little bit

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Speaker 3: of a soft place has made a really big difference

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Speaker 3: in our home.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great advice. I'm so glad you said that. If

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Speaker 2: you'd like to know more about this, I've written an

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Speaker 2: article that's available at Happy Families dot com dot you

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Speaker 2: under the articles tab. We will link to it in

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Speaker 2: the show notes and hopefully we can help you with

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Speaker 2: those school refusal school avoid in this big emotion mornings

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Speaker 2: if they're happening in your home. The Happy Famili's podcast

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Speaker 2: is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce

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Speaker 2: is our executive producer and if you'd like more information

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Speaker 2: about making your family happier, we would love for you

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Speaker 2: to join us in our Happy Families memberships. They're available

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Speaker 2: from just thirteen dollars a month where you get loads

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Speaker 2: of information to help your family, because a happy family

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Speaker 2: doesn't just happen. Get all the details at happy families

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Speaker 2: dot com dot au