1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the Daily ARS. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 2: This is the Daily OS. Oh, now it makes sense. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday, 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 2: the twenty second of September. I'm Emma Gillespie, I'm Sam Kazawski, 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 2: More stress, less friends and fewer babies. These are some 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: of the key trends that have come out of a 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 2: major longitudinal study. The Household Income and Labor Dynamics in 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: Australia Survey, also known as HILDA, released its latest annual 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 2: statistical report on Friday. The finding show the lasting impacts 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 2: of the pandemic on all Australians, including young people, whose 11 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: wellbeing and social lives have taken significant hits since COVID 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: nineteen and the finding show are yet to recover. 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 3: So hilda's been capturing trends across a broad cross section 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 3: of Australian life since two thousand and one by conducting 15 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 3: annual interviews with the same GRIPS group of sixteen thousand 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 3: Australians and their families. Respondents are asked about things like finances, 17 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 3: their social life, and physical and mental health. Now, hilda's 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 3: twentieth report shows economic factors are having a major influence 19 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 3: on our big life decisions, including financial and family planning. 20 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: The report's lead author, dr Inger Lass, says potential parents 21 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 2: are growing more concerned about their financial security and the 22 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: costs of raising a child, and that pragmatism is outweighing 23 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: the emotional side of the decision. So to help us 24 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 2: understand more about these findings, Inger joins us in today's 25 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: deep Dive. 26 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 3: But before we get into it, here. 27 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: Is a quick message from today's sponsor, dr Ingerlas. Welcome 28 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: to the podcast. 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me emma. 30 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 2: We are talking about this latest information, latest data drop 31 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: from the Hilda Survey. I'm interested in particular in the 32 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: findings on the declining birth rate. We know that Australia's 33 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: birth rate has been falling in recent years and there 34 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 2: is a section in the report that speaks to fertility intentions. Firstly, 35 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: what does that mean and what have we learned about 36 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: fertility intentions from the latest survey. 37 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. 38 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 4: So official statistics tell us how many children people actually have, 39 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 4: and in the Hilda survey, we're asking people how many 40 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 4: children they would like to have. So that is what 41 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 4: we call fertility intentions. And what we see is that 42 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 4: the trend in fertility intention mirrors the actual fertility rate, 43 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 4: so that the desired fertility has also gone down over 44 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 4: the last twenty years or so. So still having two 45 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 4: children is what most people would like to have. That's 46 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 4: slightly less than half. 47 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: Of men and women. 48 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 4: But we do see that people the prevalence of people 49 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 4: who would like three or more children has actually declined significantly. 50 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 4: And on the other hand, we now have a greater 51 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 4: share of people who would just like one child or 52 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 4: no children at all. So these two groups together now 53 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 4: make up around one quarter of men and women. 54 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 2: What are the different factors impacting people's decision on whether 55 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: to have a child or not? Is cost of living 56 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: one of them? 57 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's actually two big group of factors that people 58 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 4: consider when having children, and one is the emotional side 59 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 4: of having children, the emotional benefits like having someone to love, 60 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 4: and the other one is costs and concerns and challenges 61 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 4: associated with having children, and we do see that these 62 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 4: two factors go in quite opposite directions over time. When 63 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 4: we ask potential parents about how important they think they are, 64 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 4: we see that the emotional benefits of having children they 65 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 4: have actually slightly declined in importance over time. But on 66 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 4: the other hand, the costs and challenges issociated with having children, 67 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 4: that's something that has become more and more important in 68 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 4: the minds of potential parents. So the major concern seems 69 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 4: to be the general cost of having children, and that 70 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 4: seems to feed well into the social and economic trends 71 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 4: that we have here in Australia, and especially one important 72 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 4: one is the rise in the cost of housing, both 73 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 4: in terms of renting and in terms of mortgage repayment. 74 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: And young people who are thinking. 75 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 4: About starting a family, they will often still be in 76 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 4: the phase where they have to save up money for 77 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 4: a down payment and they would have to think about 78 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 4: getting a bigger place, because families usually cannot do with 79 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 4: the one or two bedroom apartments that are found in 80 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 4: many cities. The other factor that we see in the 81 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 4: report is that childcare costs. Expenses for childcare have increased 82 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 4: quite considerably over the time that we've been interviewing people 83 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 4: over the past twenty years or so, and this is 84 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 4: another factor that looms very large in the minds of 85 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 4: people because usually both parents would like to be employed. 86 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 4: If you don't have grandparents in the background who can 87 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 4: take care of the children, you're relying on other types 88 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 4: of childcare, and so these costs are often very expensive 89 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 4: to parents and they're also quite expensive in Australia in 90 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 4: international comparison. 91 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: Young Australians or people of that age where they're thinking 92 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: about maybe starting a family. Is the feedback that they 93 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: are having to choose between where they live, how they live, 94 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 2: what their housing looks like, and starting a family. 95 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 4: I think it means that if you want cheaper housing, 96 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 4: if you want affordable housing, you will have to move 97 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 4: towards the outskirts of the city or into regional areas. However, 98 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 4: many of the jobs are concentrated in the cities, so 99 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 4: that would result of and in relatively long commutes. We 100 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 4: do see that fathers are among the groups who have 101 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:06,679 Speaker 4: the longest commutes overall. 102 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: The report also mentions this concept called intensive parenting as 103 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 2: a bit of a more contemporary trend in parenting style. 104 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: What is this term? What does it mean? 105 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 4: But that is a norm that parents are expected to 106 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 4: spend as much money and time and energy as possible 107 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 4: into the development of their children and put their children's 108 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 4: needs above everything else. This really sets the bar quite 109 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 4: high for parenting and parenthood and I would think that 110 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 4: it keeps some people from deciding for children to begin with, 111 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 4: and the people who do, but they want to be 112 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 4: this intensive parent, they will end up having relatively small 113 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 4: families because only this is when you can concentrate all 114 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 4: your time and money on very few children. 115 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: And yeah, the survey also looks at overall attitudes towards marriage, 116 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: parenting relationships. Is there a link between shifts in those 117 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: attitudes and fertility trends? 118 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 4: We do see that people who have more Eganitarian attitudes 119 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 4: they tend to desire smaller families. I can imagine that 120 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 4: if you like to divide work and family equally between 121 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 4: the couple, that's still quite challenging, and that becomes also 122 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 4: more difficult if you have many children. 123 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: How do young Australians feel about marriage? How has that 124 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: attitude kind of shifted over time? 125 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 5: So we see that people still disagree with the statement 126 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 5: that marriage is an outdated institution, so they still see 127 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 5: value in it, but it's no longer a. 128 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 4: Thought of necessary as a life time commitment no matter what. 129 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 4: So if the relationship struggles for some reason, then separating 130 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 4: has become more acceptable, even if there are children. 131 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: The latest findings tell us that the proportion of people 132 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: in psychological distress has trended upwards since twenty thirteen. The 133 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: prevalence of distress among young people in particular has risen substantially. 134 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: You've looked into the role of friendships as a significant 135 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: source of joy in people's lives. What can you tell 136 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 2: me about the relationship between friendships and wellbeing. 137 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 4: Indeed, friendships are a very important source of social connection. 138 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 4: It provides us with emotional support, so we're having somebody 139 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 4: to talk to combat tied in, but also provides practical support. 140 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 4: We have somebody we can call for help. And we 141 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 4: do see that there is a connection between people feeling 142 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 4: that they don't have many friends and people feeling lonely 143 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 4: and being more prone to poor mental health. On the 144 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 4: other hand, the people who feel that they have many friends, 145 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 4: they are less likely to feel lonely and less likely 146 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 4: to be in poor mental health. So clearly having friends 147 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 4: is a protective factor against mental health problems. 148 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, the. 149 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 4: Causality can also go the other way, in that people 150 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 4: who already have mental health problems will also find it 151 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 4: harder to maintain social relationships. 152 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: Obviously, you know this survey has been running over many decades, 153 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 2: during which time our daily lives have shifted to incorporate 154 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 2: social media. Does social media play a role in our 155 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: interpersonal connections and friendships? 156 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 4: What we do see is that agreement with the statement 157 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 4: I seem to have a lot of friends with what 158 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 4: we call the perceived number of friends that has declined 159 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 4: considerably over time. And the interesting thing is that the 160 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 4: COVID nineteen pandemic is one major factor here. We see 161 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 4: big declines here which are easy to explain through lockdowns 162 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 4: and social distancing measures. Socializing has definitely taken a huge 163 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 4: hit during the pandemic, and what is interesting is is 164 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 4: that it hasn't really recovered very much afterwards. So apparently 165 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 4: people are now used to staying more in home and 166 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 4: interacting with people on a digital basis, or maybe not 167 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 4: at all, But really this has started much earlier, so 168 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 4: since twenty ten, we see the perceived number of friends 169 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 4: decline and we think that social media could be one 170 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 4: of the driving forces here and that people and especially 171 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 4: young people who are also very much affected by this 172 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 4: decline in friendships. They spend more time online and it's 173 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 4: easier to build connections there. But apparently these connections do 174 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 4: not have the same death as people you meet in 175 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 4: real life and interact face to face with on a 176 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 4: regular basis. 177 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 2: There are, obviously, you know, significant concern areas, and sometimes 178 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: when we go through this data it can feel a 179 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: little bit bleak. But what about the more hopeful findings. 180 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: Is there cause for optimism? What sort of stands out 181 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 2: to you as telling a more positive story from the 182 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: latest data set. 183 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 4: That would be a totally different area. But personally, I 184 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 4: do a lot of work on working from home and 185 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 4: commuting times, and this one good news that we can 186 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 4: get from the report is that commuting times have stayed 187 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 4: quite low since the pandemic. 188 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:40,719 Speaker 1: They were very much on. 189 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 4: The rise before and we had very long commutes, especially 190 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 4: in the major cities in Australia up until twenty nineteen, 191 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 4: and that all changed with the pandemic with many people 192 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 4: changing into working from home. Our data only reaches until 193 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, but what we can see until this 194 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 4: point is that because working from home has remained quite 195 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 4: prevalent in the labor market, so have commuting times also 196 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 4: remained relatively low. And I think that is a good 197 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 4: news for people because we know that long commutes are 198 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 4: very bad for people's health as well. 199 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: There can be a major stressor. 200 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,359 Speaker 4: And on the other hand it's also good for infrastructure 201 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 4: and traffic congestion and so on. 202 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 2: What are your predictions for the next year, five years, 203 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: or ten years of Hillder survey data. Are there any 204 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: key areas that we should be paying attention to or there. 205 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 4: Will be so many interesting topics coming up. Probably you 206 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 4: never know what comes up. I think this digital age 207 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 4: will mean that we will look a lot into a 208 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 4: use of social media, for example, but also we have 209 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 4: new topics like online bullying that will be in later 210 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 4: editions of the report. I think also the topic of 211 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 4: our mental health will be one that will be important 212 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 4: and economic well being and that will be an important 213 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 4: for in your future as well. 214 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: Fascinating stuff. Thank you so much for joining us on 215 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 2: the podcast today. 216 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. 217 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 3: Thank you so much to doctor inger Las and Emma 218 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 3: for that interview taking us through the latest findings. That's 219 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: all we've got for you for today's episode. We're going 220 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 3: to be back with the headlines a little later on. 221 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 3: Until then, have a great start to the week. My 222 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 3: name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung 223 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 3: Calcottin woman from Gadigol country. 224 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 4: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 225 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 4: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to 226 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 4: all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay 227 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 4: our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both 228 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 4: past and present.