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Speaker 1: Last week, the Northern Territory iy CACK advised that there

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Speaker 1: would be a Whistleblowers Night, a couple of hours set

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Speaker 1: aside for territorians to call through and let the iy

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Speaker 1: CAC know about any concerns that they may have well

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Speaker 1: around corruption and other issues. It seemed like a pretty

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Speaker 1: unprecedented thing to do. I've never heard of something like

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Speaker 1: this happening before. It may well have. But joining me

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Speaker 1: in the studio is the Northern Territory's i CAAC Commissioner,

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Speaker 1: Michael Richards. Good morning to.

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Speaker 2: You, morning, Cody, and thanks very much for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us this morning now, Commissioner,

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Speaker 1: why was the decision made to have this whistle blowers

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Speaker 1: night for people to call in?

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Speaker 3: In January of this year, I announced a project that

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Speaker 3: I'd be conducting in respective in respective protection of whistle

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Speaker 3: blowers and really to get a sense of how as

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Speaker 3: a territory we treat whistleblowers and what frameworks and processes

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Speaker 3: are in place to to manage whistleblower disc disclosures and

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Speaker 3: how they're protected. And I thought it was important to

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Speaker 3: set aside some time to actually hear from people themselves

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Speaker 3: about their experiences making disclosures within government agencies, within local government,

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Speaker 3: within public administration generally, and of course I also understood

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Speaker 3: the fact that by its very nature, whistleblowers are often

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Speaker 3: quite hesitant to come forward, hesitant to speak about matters,

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Speaker 3: and to expect someone to speak to me during business hours.

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Speaker 3: I thought was a bit was going to be a

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Speaker 3: bit was going to be too much of a disk.

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Speaker 3: So I spoke to my staff and I asked my

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Speaker 3: staff to volunteer to stay back one evening, and we

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Speaker 3: did that last Thursday night. There was eight of us

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Speaker 3: there and in that to our period we had twenty

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Speaker 3: three calls, which was quite a significant number, and there

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Speaker 3: were probably a number of people that tried to get

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Speaker 3: through but couldn't because for a period there all of

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Speaker 3: us were on calls. So if there were people who

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Speaker 3: tried to get through that couldn't, I do apologize. What's

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Speaker 3: clear to me is that there is a need for

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Speaker 3: that to continue, and I've already spoken to my staff

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Speaker 3: and we will be doing that regularly, probably well. At

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Speaker 3: this stage, I expect that we'll do two evenings a

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Speaker 3: month opening up the phones, opening up resources after ours,

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Speaker 3: so that if there are people that want to bring

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Speaker 3: matters to our attention, but they're not comfortable doing so

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Speaker 3: during workhouse, then there's that ability to do so. And

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Speaker 3: in terms of when we do that, then we'll put

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Speaker 3: all that information on our website so people are aware

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Speaker 3: when those sessions will occur.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, goodness made that seems like a large volume of calls.

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Speaker 1: I mean, twenty three calls in the evening. But also

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Speaker 1: the fact that now you're looking at having two evenings

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Speaker 1: a month from those calls that you received, are there

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Speaker 1: things that need to seriously be followed up?

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Speaker 3: So out of the twenty three calls, and Beary in mind,

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Speaker 3: of course, this was the primary purpose was to obtain

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Speaker 3: submissions from people about the Whistleworld project, as opposed to

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Speaker 3: reporting matters to me.

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Speaker 2: But I was very happy to take reports.

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Speaker 3: Out of those twenty three calls, I think we had

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Speaker 3: eight reports, and there remainder what I would call submissions

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Speaker 3: to the project. And having only been going for a

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Speaker 3: short period of time the project was only announced in January,

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Speaker 3: already we've got more than sixty I think submissions in

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Speaker 3: respect of the whistleblower projects. So I'm very pleased about that.

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Speaker 3: I must say, some of the submissions I've read makes some.

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Speaker 2: Difficult reading in what sense obviously I won't go into

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Speaker 2: too much detail, but.

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Speaker 3: Accepting on face value the truth of the submissions, there's

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Speaker 3: certainly been a number of occasions where people have suffered

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Speaker 3: some quite significant adverse effects as a result of coming

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Speaker 3: forward and calling out what I would consider to be

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Speaker 3: improper behavior within government agencies. And that's certainly a very

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Speaker 3: common theme that's coming through in the submissions, and that's

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Speaker 3: a common theme that we see in research that's conducted

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Speaker 3: throughout Australia. We know that the research tells us that

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Speaker 3: the two primary reasons that people don't come forward even.

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Speaker 2: Though they know that there's wrongdoing is.

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Speaker 3: First fear of retaliation, fear of some repercussion for themselves,

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Speaker 3: and second a genuine feeling that there's no point that

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Speaker 3: nothing will happen. I mean, that's terrible, it is, it

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Speaker 3: is very troubling, and as I say, the Northern Territory

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Speaker 3: is no often in that respects It's known worldwide actually

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Speaker 3: that they are the two primary issues. But in my mind,

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Speaker 3: what do we do about it? And how is how

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Speaker 3: is it that we can reduce people's fear of speaking

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Speaker 3: up and how can we ensure that when action does

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Speaker 3: need to be taken, that it is taken it is

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Speaker 3: taken appropriately. And that's really that the purpose of the

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Speaker 3: project is for me to have a much better understanding

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Speaker 3: of what goes into the Northern Territory, because one of

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Speaker 3: my statutory functions is to issue directions in respect of

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Speaker 3: how public bodies deal with what are called protected persons

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Speaker 3: or I'll just refer to them as whistleblowers, and to

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Speaker 3: prepare guidelines to set out god sidelines dealing with frameworks

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Speaker 3: that agencies should have in place to prevent retaliation. So

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Speaker 3: all of this is geared towards me better educating myself

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Speaker 3: in order that I am able to put out the

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Speaker 3: best and most appropriate directions and guidelines that I can Now.

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Speaker 1: I know before that Whistleblowers Night was held, somebody had

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Speaker 1: been in contact with us and had said, oh, Katie,

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Speaker 1: how do we know we're not going to be recorded,

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Speaker 1: or how do we know that we can genuinely call

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Speaker 1: through and that we're not going to wind up in

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Speaker 1: a situation where there is reprisal or where there's any

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Speaker 1: concern for them down the track?

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Speaker 2: And look, it is it's an incredibly.

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Speaker 3: Difficult conversation to have with people, and I've sat across

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Speaker 3: the table from people that have quite obviously terrified about

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Speaker 3: coming forward, terrified about being identified, very fearful about the

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Speaker 3: personal repercussions, but you know, incredibly braver them to nevertheless

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Speaker 3: still come forward and be willing to call out what

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Speaker 3: they see is as wrongdoing. There are protections offered under

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Speaker 3: the k Act and under my legislation, if a person

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Speaker 3: comes forward and reports to me in accordance with say

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Speaker 3: a mandatory reporting direction that I've issued, then a person

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Speaker 3: does have some protections. Those protections include immunity from civil, criminal,

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Speaker 3: disciplinary liability, so a person couldn't be subject determination because

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Speaker 3: they provide an information to me. And it's also a

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Speaker 3: criminal offense under the k Act for a person to

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Speaker 3: engage in retaliation against a person because I've made that disclosure.

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Speaker 3: What there isn't in the ICIC Act, and it's something

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Speaker 3: that I've raised in respect of legislative change, is there's

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Speaker 3: no statutory protection of the identity of a whistlebloer. And

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Speaker 3: that's something that I think is a gap in the legislation.

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Speaker 3: It's something that's in other in legislation and other jurisdictions,

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Speaker 3: and so I've asked for there to be an amendment

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Speaker 3: so that the identity of a whistleblower is protected by

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Speaker 3: legislation and can only be disclosed in fairly limited circumstances,

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Speaker 3: which I hope will add a sense of reassurance to

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Speaker 3: people who come forward that there are protections in placeful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's very important, Michael. When can we

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Speaker 1: expect that next night to take place?

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Speaker 3: Well, I will finish off reviewing all the material we've

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Speaker 3: got so far.

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Speaker 2: I'd hope that we'll.

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Speaker 3: Have another couple of nights in March, Okay, but I'll

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Speaker 3: put that up on the ICAQ website if so, If

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Speaker 3: people are interested and keep an eye on the ICAC

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Speaker 3: website and the next day will be will be put

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Speaker 3: on that site.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely let us know. We'll be keen to let

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Speaker 1: our listeners know. Now. There was a report release last

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Speaker 1: week in relation to reports of improper conduct. It stated

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Speaker 1: that they are your single biggest information source. How many

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Speaker 1: of those reports have you received over the last year.

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Speaker 3: So over the last year, I don't have the number

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Speaker 3: in front of me, but since we started in November

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Speaker 3: twenty eighteen up to the end of last year close

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Speaker 3: to fifteen hundred reports. We on average get three hundred

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Speaker 3: to four hundred reports in a year. I might say

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Speaker 3: that since the release of that report that we're talking about,

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Speaker 3: I think we've had quite a spike in the last

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Speaker 3: week of reports being.

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Speaker 2: Made, which is well, I.

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Speaker 3: Think it's terrific that when something comes out from my offers,

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Speaker 3: it sparks interest, it sparks perhaps a reminder amongst people

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Speaker 3: of their obligations to report, and I think the content

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Speaker 3: of the report itself raises a lot of questions in

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Speaker 3: people's minds as to how does this affect my agency?

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Speaker 3: What do my agency stats say? You know, is this

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Speaker 3: reflective of what I think is going on in the agency?

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Speaker 3: Could there be under reporting? And that was one of

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Speaker 3: the purposes of putting the report out was to spark

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Speaker 3: those conversations with the agencies, get the agencies to have

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Speaker 3: a look at their own data and have a conversation

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Speaker 3: within their agencies about how that data reflects what they

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Speaker 3: perceive within their agency.

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Speaker 1: How many of those reports then lead to investigations by your.

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Speaker 3: Office very small percentage. There's a few reasons for that.

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Speaker 3: But let me talk about the various options that are

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Speaker 3: available to me. When a report's made, the report is assessed,

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Speaker 3: and it's assessed not against what I think is right

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Speaker 3: or wrong, or not against anyone else's it's assessed against

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Speaker 3: the KAC Act, and it's a sense against the criteria

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Speaker 3: that are set out in the k Act. And I

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Speaker 3: have a number of options available to me. The first

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Speaker 3: is that I can determine to take no action. Now,

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Speaker 3: I may take no action because it's clear that the

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Speaker 3: matter has already been investigated, and it's not uncommon for

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Speaker 3: people who might be unhappy with the outcome of a

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Speaker 3: previous investigation to report the matter to me. And I

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Speaker 3: have to consider carefully whether or not there's a public

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Speaker 3: interest in me going and having another look at something

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Speaker 3: that someone's already done.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: It may be that the material that's provided simply doesn't

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Speaker 3: raise an issue of improper conduct under the legislation. And

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Speaker 3: that's not to dismiss then concerns that the person has

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Speaker 3: or the very real grievance that the person feels. But

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Speaker 3: there are a number of occasions where it simply doesn't

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Speaker 3: meet the criteria.

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Speaker 2: I also receive.

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Speaker 3: Reports about agencies that don't fall within my jurisdiction so

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Speaker 3: I might receive reports about Commonwealth agencies or private companies

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Speaker 3: or the like.

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Speaker 2: Now they are not within my jurisdiction.

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Speaker 3: They're not matters that I can address, But where possible,

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Speaker 3: I'll invite that person to contact who I consider might

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Speaker 3: be the relevant body in those circumstances. So there's a

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Speaker 3: range of reasons I might decide to take no further action.

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Speaker 3: I can also refer matters to other agencies.

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Speaker 2: And the ch ACT is.

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Speaker 3: Very much structured on the basis that my investigative focus

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Speaker 3: should be on corrupt conduct and the very serious improper conduct.

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Speaker 3: The Act is premised on the basis that in most

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Speaker 3: cases where we're talking about lower les matters, unsatisfactory conduct, misconduct,

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Speaker 3: then they are matters that will be dealt with by

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Speaker 3: the relevant agency, so the Department or the Council or whatever.

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Speaker 3: So I have the power and I regularly refer matters

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Speaker 3: to those agencies to deal with. Now, I know that

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Speaker 3: that creates some concerns for people, people who might be

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Speaker 3: concerned that what I'm doing is referring a matter back

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Speaker 3: to the very agency about which they've complained.

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Speaker 2: That is the way the ch Actor is structured, and

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Speaker 2: that is the way.

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Speaker 3: I operate because of the k Act, but also the

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Speaker 3: very simple reality that I don't have the resources to

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Speaker 3: be able to look at every single matter of the COUST.

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Speaker 1: Is the Act structured in the way that it needs

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Speaker 1: to be or does there need to be some change?

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Speaker 3: Look, I think there's a number of changes that could

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Speaker 3: be made to the Act, and I think I first

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Speaker 3: raised changes back in August twenty twenty one, only a

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Speaker 3: few weeks after I started, because I could see see

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Speaker 3: some things that needed to be changed, and there has

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Speaker 3: been a view Conductor. I'm aware that the government is

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Speaker 3: working on a bill to make those amendments. I generally

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Speaker 3: try not to express publicly views about matters of policy.

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Speaker 3: I think that's matters for Parliament, but I think it's

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Speaker 3: always worthwhile having a good understanding not only of the

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Speaker 3: work I do, but the work that all of the

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Speaker 3: integrity agencies do in the Northern Territory, to ensure that

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Speaker 3: we're all properly resourced, that we're not duplicating any of

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Speaker 3: any of any of our work, and they're all functioning

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Speaker 3: as well as.

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Speaker 2: We possibly can.

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Speaker 1: Now. I do know that last week in Parliament, the

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Speaker 1: Member for goid Kisi Epuric had called for the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory government to release that independent report which has been

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Speaker 1: conducted as you just touched on there, and for the

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Speaker 1: release of its draft exposure amendments. I mean, is it

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Speaker 1: important for us to know what is sort of going

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Speaker 1: on with this and what is in there? Do you think?

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Speaker 2: Look, I won't express a view about that. That's a

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Speaker 2: matter for parliament.

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Speaker 3: And politicians and I try to stay away from that sphere.

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Speaker 3: My interest is ensuring that the Act allows me to

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Speaker 3: operate the way I think it needs to operate and

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Speaker 3: without some of the barriers that probably present themselves at

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Speaker 3: the moment now.

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Speaker 1: Last year, one of those barriers may actually be the

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Speaker 1: fact I know that you'd revealed in your annual report

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Speaker 1: that you'd close numerous investigations due to capacity constraints after

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Speaker 1: taking on the role. You also warned that ongoing budget

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Speaker 1: restrictions or reductions would inevitably reduce your ability to tackle

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Speaker 1: improper conduct in the public sector. How is that tracking?

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Speaker 1: How is that funding tracking? And do you have what

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Speaker 1: you need to to be able to do your job?

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Speaker 2: So I'll answer it in this way.

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Speaker 3: In the end, I will I will structure my work

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Speaker 3: and I will take on as much work as my

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Speaker 3: resources will allow. As it stands, the government determines my resources,

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Speaker 3: and that's that's the matter for the government to determine.

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Speaker 3: The first year that I commenced the budget was I

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Speaker 3: think in the order of six point nine million. This

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Speaker 3: financial year, we're operating on a budget of five point

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Speaker 3: five million, and come one July will take a further

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Speaker 3: five five hundred and sixty thousand dollars reduction in our budget,

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Speaker 3: so we'll be down to I think four point nine million.

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Speaker 2: Now, I'm not.

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Speaker 3: Here to complain or winge about the budget because budget

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Speaker 3: is not the only issue. The other issue I'm facing

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Speaker 3: and has been a significant challenge, is actually attracting suitable staff,

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Speaker 3: and particularly in our operations field. So for the last

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Speaker 3: twelve months, for example, I've been operating with less than

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Speaker 3: half of the number of investigators that I'm that I

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Speaker 3: got the budget for.

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Speaker 2: And that's not through of trying to find investigators.

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Speaker 3: We've gone out a number of times, but we are

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Speaker 3: having a lot of difficulty attracting suitable people, which.

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Speaker 2: Gives me the opportunity to do a little plug.

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Speaker 3: We're going to do a fairly significant recruitment drive very

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Speaker 3: soon and very keen to hear from people who are accountants, lawyers, auditors,

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Speaker 3: people who are really interested in working in what is

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Speaker 3: an incredibly challenging and interesting space investigating serious impropriety in

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Speaker 3: public administration. So anyone who does have that interest, does

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Speaker 3: have that forensic mindset and that background, then will be

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Speaker 3: going out very soon to fill a number of positions,

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Speaker 3: and I'm hoping we can get some good support there.

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Speaker 1: Commissioner, I know that there probably isn't a lot that

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Speaker 1: you can say in relation to your predecessor. However, there

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Speaker 1: are some in the community really questioning the effectiveness of

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Speaker 1: the ikak as a result of some of the previous

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Speaker 1: work which was undertaken. Has it been difficult to step

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Speaker 1: into that position, the one that you're in now and

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Speaker 1: rectify some of those issues, Katie.

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Speaker 3: I've taken the approach since I started that I'm quite

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Speaker 3: reluctant to comment about matters that occurred before my time.

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Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say it's probably not what

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Speaker 3: I was expecting when I first started, and probably the

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Speaker 3: plans I had in my own mind about the first

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Speaker 3: six to twelve months.

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Speaker 2: In a sense, we're thrown out the window.

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Speaker 3: So there's been a lot of focus for me, at

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Speaker 3: least on working from the inside out, and that is

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Speaker 3: really focusing on getting our processes right, getting our practices right,

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Speaker 3: having the right mindset within the organization in order to

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Speaker 3: when my five year term is complete, I walk away

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Speaker 3: and there is a very well established, high performing, outstanding

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Speaker 3: organization with a terrific group of staff who understand the job,

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Speaker 3: understand how to do the job correctly and fairly, and

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Speaker 3: are able to discharge all of the different statutory responsibilities appropriately.

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Speaker 3: Now I appreciate that for some that's a frustrating period because.

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Speaker 2: You know, you might not be seeing as much coming

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Speaker 2: out of.

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Speaker 3: The office as people would hope. And I can assure

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Speaker 3: people there's no one more frustrated than me. I do

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Speaker 3: get frustrated about the time it takes for me and

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Speaker 3: my staff to complete things, but in the end, I

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Speaker 3: will always make sure that things are done properly and fairly,

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Speaker 3: and I think that is the way to build trust.

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Speaker 1: Over time Commissioner. There had been reports, obviously of what

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Speaker 1: some would deem to be not the conduct that they

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Speaker 1: would have expected of the EYEKAC under the previous commissioner,

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Speaker 1: people being recorded without being notified have you taken action

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Speaker 1: to ensure that that kind of thing is not happening

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Speaker 1: any longer so that people can actually contact the Eye

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Speaker 1: Kak they can be rest assured that things are operating

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Speaker 1: in the way that they should be.

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Speaker 3: And the answer is yes, I've taken steps. Internally, I

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Speaker 3: have I have an agreement with the Inspector of the

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Speaker 3: Independent Inspector that the only time someone will be recorded

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Speaker 3: will be in accordance with a with a warrant issued

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Speaker 3: by the Supreme Court, or where I have given my

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Speaker 3: own personal written consent, and that written consent will be

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Speaker 3: provided to the inspector so that there's a there's some

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Speaker 3: oversight there. I can say that since I started, I've

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Speaker 3: never given written consent, so so people can be assured

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Speaker 3: that that conduct of that kind isn't and white occur.

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Speaker 1: Now. I know in recent weeks we have had many

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Speaker 1: concerns raised, well, some pretty high profile concerns raised that

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Speaker 1: reports have been provided to your office. The Independent Member

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Speaker 1: for Aura lun for example, Robert Late, said that she'd

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Speaker 1: referred to referred the Attorney General to your office. Is

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Speaker 1: that something you're able to confirm?

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Speaker 2: No, I won't. I won't.

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Speaker 3: Confirm for this reason, what I don't want to do

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Speaker 3: is set a precedent. If a person in a public

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Speaker 3: position states publicly that I'm doing something, then in a sense,

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Speaker 3: I'm then compelled to confirm it. I don't think that's

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Speaker 3: an appropriate way for my office to operate, So I

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Speaker 3: simply won't express any view about that particular matter.

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Speaker 2: But can I say this.

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Speaker 3: In the investigations I'm conducting, and you asked before, I

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Speaker 3: have fifteen investigations ongoing at the moment. In the investigations

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Speaker 3: that I conduct, almost in every case, the first the

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Speaker 3: early stages of an investigation are done covertly. They're done

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Speaker 3: in a manner in a way to en or protection

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Speaker 3: of the integrity of the evidence, to ensure that people

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Speaker 3: are not scared off from coming forward because there's been

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Speaker 3: public communication about a matter, and to ensure that there's

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Speaker 3: no loss, destruction.

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Speaker 2: Or tampering with evidence that might be available.

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Speaker 3: Now, I'm not suggesting anything in particular in respect of

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Speaker 3: any particular matter. However, if it then becomes publicly known

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Speaker 3: before I've even had a chance to consider it, then

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Speaker 3: my big concern is about the integrity of any action

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Speaker 3: that I later later take.

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Speaker 2: So I guess it's just a.

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Speaker 3: Word of encouragement to people to just think carefully about

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Speaker 3: the potential ramifications in terms of my ability to discharge

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Speaker 3: my duties by making statements about what I may or

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Speaker 3: may not be, what I may or may not.

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Speaker 2: Have before me.

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Speaker 1: Well, Commissioner, we are going to have to leave it there.

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask you whether you're investigating a

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Speaker 1: couple of other matters, but I can see based on

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Speaker 1: what you've said that I'm not going to get much

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Speaker 1: information there, which I think is entirely fair enough. You know,

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Speaker 1: it means that you're able to do your job, which

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Speaker 1: I respect. I do just want to ask, though, to

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Speaker 1: anybody out there listening this morning who maybe did lose

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Speaker 1: some confidence in the operations of the i CAC and

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Speaker 1: and you know, the iy casability in recent years. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what would you say to anybody that is feeling, you know,

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Speaker 1: as though they're a little bit disillusioned with the work

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Speaker 1: that the iy CAAC can do.

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Speaker 2: Well, what I would say is that.

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Speaker 3: I guess I'm a different person. I can say I

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Speaker 3: have a phenomenal group of people working with me. There's

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Speaker 3: been a lot of turnover in the last eighteen months,

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Speaker 3: but I have a phenomenal group. I have a formidable

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Speaker 3: executive director who's my second in charge, and outstanding group

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Speaker 3: of directors and a terrific team. We all understand what

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Speaker 3: our job is and the limits of that job, and

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Speaker 3: we're getting on with it. We're working incredibly hard, and

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Speaker 3: I hope that over time people will see that what

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Speaker 3: we're doing is important and see that what comes out

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Speaker 3: of the office is fair, is done fairly and appropriately

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Speaker 3: and has the public interest at heart. So I appreciate

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Speaker 3: that may take some time, but I'm confident that we'll

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Speaker 3: get there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've got messages coming through. I know that

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Speaker 1: people are asking questions like where is the investigation at

404
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Speaker 1: in terms of the charges or the charging around.

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Speaker 2: Constable Zachary Rolf.

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Speaker 1: Again, I can tell based on what you've said to

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Speaker 1: me just a moment ago, when I'd ask the question

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Speaker 1: about the independent member for our lun that I'm probably

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Speaker 1: not going to get much information there.

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Speaker 3: Well. I mean that was a matter that I made

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Speaker 3: a public statement about the time that I commenced, because

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Speaker 3: there are a whole range of assertions being made and

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Speaker 3: there didn't appear to be anyone who was putting their

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Speaker 3: hand up to say.

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Speaker 2: That I'll look at these.

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Speaker 3: So I decided to investigate a number of matters, and

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Speaker 3: that investigation is ongoing, coming close to a completion. But

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Speaker 3: in that respect, I must be very mindful of the

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Speaker 3: fact that there is still a coronial inquest going on,

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Speaker 3: and I must ensure that anything I do does not

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Speaker 3: have any prejudiceship prejudicial impact upon that process.

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Speaker 1: Well, Northern Territory KAC Commissioner, Michael Riches, I really appreciate

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Speaker 1: you taking quite a bit of your time out this

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Speaker 1: morning to have a chat with me and my listeners.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much for coming in no trouble, Thanks

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Speaker 1: very much, Thank you,