Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reload.
Speaker 2: The podcast last week They're Life.
Speaker 1: Hey guys, welcome back to TV Reload. I want to
Speaker 1: thank you for clicking and downloading on today's episode with
Speaker 1: Asher Ketty and David Wenham, who are both featured in
Speaker 1: the new Paramount Plus series Fake. The eight part limited
Speaker 1: series is based on a true story when magazine feature
Speaker 1: writer Bertie Bell meets success for grazier Joe Bert on
Speaker 1: a dating app and believes that she has found her
Speaker 1: perfect match. But as the relationship intensifies, Bertie begins to
Speaker 1: feel her boyfriend isn't all that he has led her
Speaker 1: to believe. The scary fact is that men in the
Speaker 1: real world are doing this every day, and sadly, this
Speaker 1: is becoming a common story. The series is based on
Speaker 1: a book by the author Stephanie Wood, and the way
Speaker 1: in which the show unpacks psychological fantastica is groundbreaking work
Speaker 1: for the team of content creators that bring you this series.
Speaker 1: The whole series is available to view on Paramount Plus
Speaker 1: right now, and I don't say this lightly. Sign up
Speaker 1: and stream this show right now. It is phenomenal. At
Speaker 1: this point of the podcast, I usually intro my guests
Speaker 1: and give you a bit of a summary. But my
Speaker 1: guest today Asha Kenny and David Wenem need no introduction
Speaker 1: because we have been in their audience for decades. I
Speaker 1: will talk about how Asher and David created these characters from,
Speaker 1: how much they borrowed from the book, what David thinks
Speaker 1: about his characters lying, and if Asher was able to
Speaker 1: watch back her most intense performance to date. We will
Speaker 1: unpack the obsession of true crime, what this says about us,
Speaker 1: and why audiences now demand smarter scripted dramas. There is
Speaker 1: an opportunity to talk to Asher about her roles on
Speaker 1: Offspring and Love My Way, which is very exciting for me.
Speaker 1: And David will reveal a shocking truth about his on
Speaker 1: screen roles, which is fascinating to hear considering his filmography.
Speaker 1: You will find out if there is going to be
Speaker 1: a second series of Fake. We will talk about the
Speaker 1: laws that need to be implemented on falsifying and manipulating
Speaker 1: people in the dating world. Guys, there is so much
Speaker 1: to unpack with Asher and David today, so sit back
Speaker 1: and relax as we unpack the complicated world of Fake,
Speaker 1: which is now on Paramount Plus thank you both for
Speaker 1: doing this and for talking to me. I am such
Speaker 1: a big fan of both of you and this series
Speaker 1: is absolutely incredible.
Speaker 3: Thank you, guys.
Speaker 1: I have a friend of mine who works in the
Speaker 1: media and he rang me one afternoon and said that
Speaker 1: he needed to write a feature the next day and
Speaker 1: was looking for ideas. And I said to him, You've
Speaker 1: got to write about Fake because I'd watched the screeners.
Speaker 1: I watched it all in one go, all eight episodes
Speaker 1: in one sitting, and I said, you have to watch it.
Speaker 1: It is so compelling. Everyone in Australia is going to
Speaker 1: be talking about it. Get on board, get ahead of
Speaker 1: the story. And he said, could I say that it's
Speaker 1: Australia's baby Reindeer. And I was like, yes, yes, it is.
Speaker 1: It is. It's Australia's baby Reindeer because everyone is going
Speaker 1: to watch it all in one.
Speaker 3: Go oh gosh, that's good.
Speaker 1: So people need to cancel all of their subscriptions. I
Speaker 1: need to get Paramour Plus.
Speaker 2: That's right, and put aside one night where they don't
Speaker 2: sleep and just watch it all.
Speaker 1: Yes, how did you both find watching the show? You
Speaker 1: guys were there creating these characters and reading these lines.
Speaker 1: But then have you were you able to watch it
Speaker 1: as a viewer? What was that like?
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know if Day's watched it.
Speaker 2: No, I don't. I hardly ever watch my own work.
Speaker 2: I don't watch stuff. Unfortunately. I wish I could, because
Speaker 2: I'm hypercritical and so I can't be completely objective and
Speaker 2: just watch something and enjoy it for what it is. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've always have my critical faculties on, so I'm not
Speaker 2: a consumer. I don't watch anything. Really. I read. I
Speaker 2: know that it's sort of bamboozles people, but yeah, that's
Speaker 2: just me. I'm a book weirder.
Speaker 3: Well, I read mostly too, that's my entertainment.
Speaker 4: I think we are actually very similar in our process
Speaker 4: doing the actual work.
Speaker 2: That's a bit that we like doing it.
Speaker 4: It is the true thing, that's the process being enjoyed
Speaker 4: the most, right, So, and this says was incredible together
Speaker 4: was creatively it was just so so satisfying, wonderful. But
Speaker 4: we are a little different in that spect in post production.
Speaker 4: So I'm quite okay to watch something I didn't used
Speaker 4: to be. I used to be very much like David.
Speaker 4: Oh god, no, I the thought of watching myself was mortifying.
Speaker 4: I would just pull myself apart, and I want to
Speaker 4: go back and do it again, and what would be
Speaker 4: the point of watching something? For many years, I carried
Speaker 4: on like that and thought, I'm just it's best not
Speaker 4: to see, you know, because the process is what's that's
Speaker 4: the fun part. But I've thought about this. I think
Speaker 4: doing Offspring for all those years helped me to be
Speaker 4: a little.
Speaker 3: Bit more objective.
Speaker 4: I mean, frankly, I just got you know you're watching
Speaker 4: if you're in every scene and you're sort of.
Speaker 3: A part of well. I wasn't a producer on that show.
Speaker 4: I was really involved in you know, early cuts, and
Speaker 4: it was important to me to watch it. I think
Speaker 4: I became a little more relaxed about it, which is
Speaker 4: kind of good because I'm with the show like Fate
Speaker 4: I was producing, and I really do need to watch it.
Speaker 4: I need to sit in the carts and need to
Speaker 4: do in the sound mixes. And I was able to
Speaker 4: see this story in particular a lot more holistically than
Speaker 4: you know, pull myself about.
Speaker 2: For me, the reason why I don't watch myself is
Speaker 2: Ash is a producer on this, which is fantastic, is
Speaker 2: I have no control over what goes on the screen.
Speaker 2: I have no control over the performance. So I have
Speaker 2: control on the day, but in terms of the construction
Speaker 2: of the piece, I have no controller. Obviously, very very
Speaker 2: frustrating sometimes and annoying when you know that, well, actually,
Speaker 2: if only they've done that, that would have belong. So
Speaker 2: that's why I don't watch. It's better not to stay away.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, is that a fear of
Speaker 1: the lack of control because you're going to see something
Speaker 1: and you're going to go I need that to be changed.
Speaker 1: You do want to enter that space because I guess you.
Speaker 2: Can consider the opportunity to make things better.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a drive for perfection and I understand that,
Speaker 4: and certainly for me with anything i'm not producing, I
Speaker 4: don't really have the desire to watch it either, because
Speaker 4: we've done it.
Speaker 3: We've completed the world. Really, you know, that's the bit
Speaker 3: for us. And it's just true.
Speaker 1: We have to say that I just only was curious
Speaker 1: about this, and I don't feel like I've ever asked that.
Speaker 1: This is episode like four hundred and forty of this podcast,
Speaker 1: and I don't think I've ever asked one question to anyone,
Speaker 1: because I can't imagine that it would be a comfortable experience.
Speaker 1: But I think because the way in which this show
Speaker 1: has been put together, it's so visceral, and it's so compelling,
Speaker 1: and the way in which it flows just almost feels
Speaker 1: like wanting to watch yourself back on a roller coaster.
Speaker 1: That's the only reason why I thought maybe you both
Speaker 1: might have and David, maybe you should start watching some
Speaker 1: of your work.
Speaker 2: It's incredible, very but honestly, it's like, yeah, iys, I
Speaker 2: always look forward, So yeah, the thing that I'm involved
Speaker 2: in it, you know, at any point in time, that's
Speaker 2: where I'm focusing. Yeah, But honestly, it's the action of
Speaker 2: creating that's the thing that really fires me.
Speaker 1: Actually, you managed to work alongside some a lot of
Speaker 1: the people that created Safe Home SBS last year, which
Speaker 1: was like another series that very similar to this, was
Speaker 1: very it was psychological thriller in a way because of
Speaker 1: what's going on. Did you watch Safe Home last year?
Speaker 4: And I did? Yeah, I thought it was brilliant. It's
Speaker 4: another image in banks produce that well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, yeah.
Speaker 1: I had her on the podcast to talk about it.
Speaker 1: I remember saying to her again, we're drinking, but we're
Speaker 1: not boozounds. By the way, but I remember saying to Imagen,
Speaker 1: I was like, I felt kind of bad that I
Speaker 1: was drinking red wine while watching this show is entertainment
Speaker 1: because the subject matter was so dark but yet so compelling.
Speaker 1: And it feels kind of strange that these days, here
Speaker 1: we are with our popcorn, you know, a glass of wine,
Speaker 1: watching true crime like this, digesting true crime like this.
Speaker 1: It's strange.
Speaker 4: Well, I think people, I think people are leaning into
Speaker 4: watching really smart drama. And I don't think that the content,
Speaker 4: even if the content's brutal or it's uncomfortable or confronting
Speaker 4: or however you want to describe it, if it's emotionally
Speaker 4: pulsive thus compelling, then it's entertaining. So I don't think
Speaker 4: it matters whether it's you know, a comedy or the
Speaker 4: subject matter is light, or whether it's this where you know,
Speaker 4: you're diving heavily into the psyche of a woman that
Speaker 4: is is repressing her instinct and a man that is
Speaker 4: a fantasist really that is, you know, who believes his
Speaker 4: own narrative. I mean, there's so many layers to it
Speaker 4: that as long as it's got that propulsion and it
Speaker 4: helped makes you want to lean in I think that,
Speaker 4: you know, it can still be really entertaining as opposed
Speaker 4: to just feeling dark or heavy or I.
Speaker 1: Think for some reason we sort of feel maybe it's
Speaker 1: just me, but I feel compelled to find out more
Speaker 1: about people. I love people watching people, and I think
Speaker 1: that this particular series is almost like a character study
Speaker 1: on the psychological fantastica, which you know, like gas lighting
Speaker 1: and all of these new terms that are coming about
Speaker 1: are all things we're kind of fascinated with because we
Speaker 1: see them in our real world. We recognize them in people. David,
Speaker 1: how did you go about creating this character? Because it's
Speaker 1: so well paced throughout this show, and this man does
Speaker 1: exist in the real world, there's people like this man.
Speaker 1: How did you go about creating a character? Did you
Speaker 1: make decisions about his lying? Did you go, oh, he
Speaker 1: believes his own lies. I just felt curious about how
Speaker 1: you did it.
Speaker 2: That's an interesting question. Actually, did he believe his own lies? Yeah?
Speaker 2: As ashually said, he he's a classic fantasist, and the
Speaker 2: thing with him, I believe this is how I approach
Speaker 2: the character. He literally believes everything that he said. There
Speaker 2: is no distinction between reality and fantasy for him, and
Speaker 2: I think that's what makes it really interesting that even
Speaker 2: within the most fantastical situations, there's enough of a kernel
Speaker 2: of truth in there somewhere to keep Birdie still believing
Speaker 2: that this is actually okay, quite real, even if it
Speaker 2: was just you know, sometimes the situations are potentially quite
Speaker 2: ridiculous that he creates, well, even so, he gives her
Speaker 2: just enough to think that potentially, actually, no I can
Speaker 2: trust him. So the approach was quite simply to play
Speaker 2: every moment as truthfully as possible. There was never, from
Speaker 2: his perspective, any time that he lied to anybody, and
Speaker 2: I think in doing that, it makes it well, that's
Speaker 2: not so interesting. Yeah, it makes it difficult for Birdie
Speaker 2: and also the audience to distinguish what israel and what
Speaker 2: is fake.
Speaker 1: I had a girlfriend that went out with a guy
Speaker 1: very similar to this, not as drawn out, and it
Speaker 1: was sort of It's interesting because like this, this show
Speaker 1: sort of has it beginning in the middle and an end,
Speaker 1: and it's based on a true story. My girlfriend only
Speaker 1: really had a small situation with this man, and she
Speaker 1: quickly worked it out. And the interesting thing about this
Speaker 1: man was that there was this presence about him that
Speaker 1: was so it was sort of intoxicating and alluring, but
Speaker 1: yet there was something kind of murky the whole time.
Speaker 1: Everyone that was ever.
Speaker 2: With this person, you felt it something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was bubbling away behind the surface. And no
Speaker 1: one could say that to my friend and she knew
Speaker 1: it as well. But it's you know, you felt like
Speaker 1: it's rude to pull your friend aside and says, this
Speaker 1: man you're in love with or spending time is he
Speaker 1: a liar? And that's what's interesting about this as well,
Speaker 1: is watching Birdie struggle with what she can probably sense
Speaker 1: the whole time is happening, but she is pushing it
Speaker 1: away as hard as she can. She doesn't want.
Speaker 4: She's also questioning herself, you see, because you know her
Speaker 4: self esteem is low, she's lacking in confidence.
Speaker 3: That's this time in her life.
Speaker 4: So not that that means that that That's why Joe
Speaker 4: was able to get her to believe his narrative because I.
Speaker 3: Think it can happen to anyone. I really do, and
Speaker 3: I love when.
Speaker 4: David talks about this. There's we we inherently trust people.
Speaker 4: We want to believe what they say.
Speaker 2: I met a gentleman who is an ex federal policeman
Speaker 2: who now is a private investigator and he gets hired
Speaker 2: by people to basically to investigate if people are having affairs.
Speaker 2: That's one of the things he does. And the first
Speaker 2: thing he'll do is ask the client, Okay, tell me
Speaker 2: what you know about this gentleman. And the client will say, well,
Speaker 2: he's told me he's a blah blah blah. Then he
Speaker 2: told me he got that, and then he told me
Speaker 2: what he would do. And the investigator always say, Okay,
Speaker 2: stop there, that's what he's told you. What do you
Speaker 2: know about him? And when that happens, he suddenly he goes, oh, actually,
Speaker 2: I don't really know anything because we're believed other than
Speaker 2: what you've been told. Yeah, and it's a frightening thing.
Speaker 2: So you're reliant on trust when you trust people.
Speaker 4: That's human nature. We want to trust people and we
Speaker 4: want to be we want to feel good and swept
Speaker 4: up and connected to other people emotionally and physically.
Speaker 3: And you can see how easily this can happen.
Speaker 1: I like to think about it as in as we
Speaker 1: as human loves to fill the dots. We can all
Speaker 1: go into the room and see something. We can all
Speaker 1: see the same thing and come out and interpret it. Differently,
Speaker 1: and it usually is because of the way in which
Speaker 1: we want to interpret that situation. The lens that we
Speaker 1: put over the top of it, I find is really
Speaker 1: fascinating and it's something that we all struggle to really
Speaker 1: admit that we've done.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we all do it, and we're.
Speaker 1: All doing it all of the time, which is like,
Speaker 1: is crazy? So fake is inspired by Stephanie Wood's memoir,
Speaker 1: and I have to say, I am such a big
Speaker 1: fan of Mom and Mere podcast Maya Freeman Friedman and
Speaker 1: Asha obviously you are too, because you basically are her
Speaker 1: and another series that you're filming at.
Speaker 3: The moment, very inspired by her.
Speaker 1: But had you listened to that episode of her podcast
Speaker 1: when she had Stephanie on there, Because I listened to
Speaker 1: it in twenty nineteen and I was completely riveted by
Speaker 1: her bravery to share that story.
Speaker 4: Yes, I know, right, listen to the podcast. I just
Speaker 4: I read the book, and of course it is our
Speaker 4: drama is inspired by her experience, but it is very
Speaker 4: much also our own interpretation of it. I guess I
Speaker 4: just wanted to stick with the I only read the
Speaker 4: book once too. I didn't refer to it again. I
Speaker 4: just I read it I felt very compelled by it.
Speaker 4: I wanted to be involved in developing a TV show
Speaker 4: with Imagen, and we were inspired by the themes that
Speaker 4: Stephanie explores in her book as opposed to the specifics
Speaker 4: as such. I mean, you know, you create drama based
Speaker 4: on a book or inspired by a book, and you
Speaker 4: take the things you're really compelled by and you develop them.
Speaker 3: And that's what we did with this show.
Speaker 4: So it's very much, you know, a fictional show about
Speaker 4: these two people, but yet that many, many, many people
Speaker 4: globally have experienced. So I guess that you know, what
Speaker 4: we set out to do was to make it the
Speaker 4: most experiential journey we could, mean inside the point of
Speaker 4: view of Bertie and then of Joe as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was interesting. I went back and listened to
Speaker 1: the podcast this morning, just coincidentally with having a little
Speaker 1: bit more time before chatting to you, and I shocked
Speaker 1: at how much of her dialogue you say exactly the
Speaker 1: same way.
Speaker 3: Oh do you think?
Speaker 1: And it must be coincidental you're not mimicking her tones,
Speaker 1: as in your not trying to well.
Speaker 4: I didn't speak to her before throughout the shoot. No,
Speaker 4: I met her at the end. I think we met
Speaker 4: her at the end.
Speaker 1: Yet that is so unbelievable to hear because like, oh, granted,
Speaker 1: I listened to that podcast in twenty nineteen, so I'd
Speaker 1: had a long disconnect from it and then watched the series,
Speaker 1: and it was so interesting then to listen to that
Speaker 1: podcast and hears Stephanie's words and for her to say
Speaker 1: very clear piece of dialogue that you had in the series.
Speaker 4: I think Annye did take from the book in some ways,
Speaker 4: like actual instances, you know, the events that it had
Speaker 4: occurred for her. We certainly did that. But I think
Speaker 4: that's the point is that this can happen to anybody,
Speaker 4: and has happened to many people. An involvement like this
Speaker 4: that unfortunately can push you someone into kind of losing
Speaker 4: their identity as they know it. It's very common, so
Speaker 4: we all kind of speak about it similarly, do you know.
Speaker 3: What I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, it was interesting. I'll just say, like tonally,
Speaker 1: you weren't sounding like her, but the emotion of what
Speaker 1: she was saying was what you captured and what was
Speaker 1: there Again, of course that's how you're going to sort
Speaker 1: of use the nuances to say those words, Do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Because it's so emotional. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a podcast who the Hell is Hamish or Who
Speaker 1: the Fuck is Hamish that's out at the moment, and
Speaker 1: it's all the same sort of thing. It's about a
Speaker 1: man who did this multiple times, and then you get
Speaker 1: to hear the voices of all of these women that
Speaker 1: he has manipulated over the years. I just assumed that
Speaker 1: it was the same guy and then was disturbed to
Speaker 1: find out that there was all of these podcasts of
Speaker 1: these men doing this, so sort of circling back what
Speaker 1: was saying before. Do you think that these men are
Speaker 1: doing it for attention? Like what would make somebody in
Speaker 1: your minds want to do that to someone?
Speaker 2: I think I think there's a few different categories here.
Speaker 2: There's you know, there was a show on Netflix, Tinderswindler
Speaker 2: that was a specific example of a guy who obviously
Speaker 2: was motivated by you know, he wanted, he wanted He
Speaker 2: screwed women for sex and money and what There was
Speaker 2: a very clear motivation. This guy in Fake Joe Burt
Speaker 2: is not that person. He for me, for my mind,
Speaker 2: there was no malevolent we can argue about this. There
Speaker 2: was no malevolence in his intent, which makes it interesting
Speaker 2: because you're working out why on earth is he doing this?
Speaker 2: There's no you know, there's no monetary gain, there's nothing
Speaker 2: without giving it away. We know that, you know, Joe
Speaker 2: doesn't really have very much. I spoke to a psychiatrist
Speaker 2: about it, and he said that there's a particular syndrome
Speaker 2: psychological syndrome I can't remember the name for it now,
Speaker 2: where by people do things that objectively we think they're strange,
Speaker 2: we don't quite understand them, and this particular group of
Speaker 2: people it goes under a little term whereby we're never
Speaker 2: going to understand their motivation. They just do things that
Speaker 2: are confounding and we don't know why.
Speaker 3: That's urinating but confounding.
Speaker 2: You know, obviously her psychological condition without a doubt, and
Speaker 2: he's not. I would contend that he's not really aware
Speaker 2: of the extent of damage, psychological damage that he is
Speaker 2: actually causing on women.
Speaker 1: Agree my family, I reckon have this in our DNA. Now,
Speaker 1: this is a big thing to sort of say, because
Speaker 1: I really, yeah, it's in our DNA, and I have
Speaker 1: to try really hard not to do it. I'm sure
Speaker 1: people listening to my podcast over the four years probably
Speaker 1: find it quite disturbing that I'm even admitting to this,
Speaker 1: But I was brought up around fantastic storytellers people men
Speaker 1: that were in our family, women that were in our
Speaker 1: family that were very good at telling story. There was
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure around. We had a Sunday lunch
Speaker 1: every Sunday, our whole family would get together, from the
Speaker 1: top of our grandparents down and they all had these
Speaker 1: amazing stories. And it was kind of said to me,
Speaker 1: you know, if you want to hold the fort, if
Speaker 1: you want to hold the table and get people's attention
Speaker 1: to your story has to be very good. And so
Speaker 1: I got very good at being able to tell stories.
Speaker 1: And then it wasn't until years later that I found
Speaker 1: out that half of those stories that were being told
Speaker 1: to me by my grandfather were He knew that they
Speaker 1: were crap, like do you know what I mean, and
Speaker 1: he'd hold it with no malice. There was no malice
Speaker 1: in telling these stories, like.
Speaker 3: In complete conviction, with complete.
Speaker 1: And utter conviction. And that was all my mom's side
Speaker 1: of the family, but my dad had it as well.
Speaker 1: Dad would just be there freely telling people stories that
Speaker 1: I would as a child would be sitting there.
Speaker 3: Going on everywhere.
Speaker 1: But I also would be thinking I was there for that.
Speaker 1: That's not how it happened. Yes, right, Dad worked at
Speaker 1: three W and I remember he picked me up from
Speaker 1: school and they're at the Botanical which was like a
Speaker 1: water hole for people in the media, and I would
Speaker 1: have been like twelve at the box, I would have
Speaker 1: been like twelve, and he was holding court with these
Speaker 1: people telling these stories, and I remember thinking none of
Speaker 1: them were I mean, they were based on truth. There
Speaker 1: was elements that definitely happened, but most of what he
Speaker 1: was saying was garbage.
Speaker 3: Why do you think he did it and your grandfather?
Speaker 1: I think they wanted to be compelling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, when it's.
Speaker 1: Not malicious and you're not trying to steal money from someone,
Speaker 1: you're not trying to hurt someone. Where is the responsibility
Speaker 1: or the integrity that's being lost in a story by
Speaker 1: a person doing that? Is it bad?
Speaker 2: It's a very interesting sort of conversation you've taken out there.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about it, think, yeah, I think maybe just
Speaker 2: at the roots of it, there's a need to be loved,
Speaker 2: and he's doing it a need to be loved. Yes,
Speaker 2: at its simplest essence.
Speaker 1: I found that within myself. I found like, I'm in
Speaker 1: what he is now and I don't do it. But
Speaker 1: it had to be a really conscious decision. When I
Speaker 1: thought about having this conversation with you two today and
Speaker 1: being so vulnerable with just revealing all of this, I
Speaker 1: just got to a point where I didn't want someone
Speaker 1: to say I was a liar. I felt disgusted by that,
Speaker 1: and amazing things had happened in my life that I
Speaker 1: didn't need to lie as well, which you know.
Speaker 2: That is interesting point. We spoke about this every now
Speaker 2: and again. Actually, Joe, if he's like he's obviously, you know,
Speaker 2: a very smart individual. You know, he has energy whatever,
Speaker 2: and you just thought if he put all of those
Speaker 2: talents and energies into just one person or to one
Speaker 2: job and we're it'd be an extremely successful person.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, Why isn't he doing that? Do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like in this scenario with him
Speaker 1: with Joe, you know, look, he's wanting to do this
Speaker 1: on me.
Speaker 2: I just don't think he can be satiated.
Speaker 1: Essentially, this could even have a series too. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you could do a series too, whether that's
Speaker 1: even a conversation or whether you're allowed to talk about it,
Speaker 1: but the after effects of how this story ends. There's
Speaker 1: still so much more that we could talk about, because
Speaker 1: I know when I was reading some of Stephanie's work
Speaker 1: that you know he continued to contact her after she
Speaker 1: outed him. She changed his name and protected him that way,
Speaker 1: but his friends and family knew it was him, and
Speaker 1: he knew it was him. I'm fascinated about whether or
Speaker 1: not you two are already starting to talk about the
Speaker 1: aftermath of this.
Speaker 3: No, not really. We were kind of very much in
Speaker 3: the NO.
Speaker 2: I joked about it that, you know, the next series
Speaker 2: should be called Real through Joe's perspective, an experiential trip
Speaker 2: through Joe. I don't think we're going to I don't think.
Speaker 4: We're I think episode six is enough, utterly how over
Speaker 4: when I saw it, I think episode six in series
Speaker 4: ones enough. When it ships me OV two, Joe, he's
Speaker 4: very busy. He's so busy. It was exhausting.
Speaker 1: I just I turned to my partner and said, I
Speaker 1: was hoping that they were going to do this, but
Speaker 1: I felt like this would be the final episode, do
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like, when we got to
Speaker 1: see the switch of POV, I was like isn't that
Speaker 1: fascinating kind of like skin crawling in a way, we think, so,
Speaker 1: do you think that there should be This is where
Speaker 1: my friends who have watched this are starting to talk about,
Speaker 1: do you think we need to create laws around social media?
Speaker 1: And because there is so much catfishing, and because there
Speaker 1: is so much mistrust, all of this sort of murky
Speaker 1: side that seems to be coming out of online dating,
Speaker 1: should there be something that stops someone from doing that? Like?
Speaker 1: Should we because at the moment, you know, there's none
Speaker 1: of these case studies of you know, you could go
Speaker 1: to jail if you've misrepresented yourself, Like, do you think
Speaker 1: that there needs to be something put in place? Well?
Speaker 4: I wonder whether it actually just will start to evolve
Speaker 4: in that way and go down that path of things
Speaker 4: being legalized.
Speaker 2: And I just don't know how on earth because of
Speaker 2: so much how would you please that this is the thing?
Speaker 4: I mean, that's the same thing with social media, radio
Speaker 4: age restriction as well. I'm thinking about that a lot
Speaker 4: at the moment. Of course, I've got a fourteen year
Speaker 4: old and a nine year old, and the parent in
Speaker 4: me instinctively goes, oh my gosh, yes, absolutely not to sixteen.
Speaker 4: You know, every part of me screams that because I'm
Speaker 4: really worried about it. But then then you think further
Speaker 4: about it, though, and you think, how on earth are
Speaker 4: they going to police that?
Speaker 3: How is that going to work? It raises so many questions.
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess things will be put to the
Speaker 4: public eventually, but I can't work out in my mind
Speaker 4: how that will work. So I wonder about is this
Speaker 4: the same a similar thing?
Speaker 1: You know, child like to find it? So that's what
Speaker 1: I found with my girlfriends that have got children now
Speaker 1: that they swore, you know, my children will not be
Speaker 1: on Facebook until they're sixteen. They found that these are That's.
Speaker 4: What I'm saying, like, how are they going to police it?
Speaker 4: How are they going to enforce this?
Speaker 1: But then when do you actually, like, when do you
Speaker 1: start having that conversation with your children because you kind
Speaker 1: of need to start arming them with that information before
Speaker 1: they're tempted to get into that space. Do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean?
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm always having that conversation with the big boy
Speaker 4: that started a few years ago, you know, when he
Speaker 4: wanted to jump on TikTok and all the things that
Speaker 4: his friends were looking at and yeah, the little one
Speaker 4: is not there yet, but he's already aware of the conversation.
Speaker 3: And it's a tricky one. But I think it's similar.
Speaker 4: Though, perhaps to how on earth will that be policed
Speaker 4: if there were restrictions online dating apps and on behavior.
Speaker 3: Basically, I'm not.
Speaker 1: Sure because like, the interesting thing about getting yourself involved
Speaker 1: in these spaces I always think is that no one
Speaker 1: thinks it all happened to them. And I remember years ago.
Speaker 1: I've been in a relationship now for fifteen years, but
Speaker 1: I was with a man beforehand, and I'd stopped talking
Speaker 1: to my friends and my family. It was really weird,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't until someone said to me that I
Speaker 1: was in a almost like a domestic violent scenario. And
Speaker 1: I just always grew up thinking that would never be me,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? I always thought, how
Speaker 1: do people find themselves in these situations? But for a
Speaker 1: lot of people, I don't think that they know that
Speaker 1: they're there until it's happened to them.
Speaker 3: And then they visit, oh that's me, I'm in it.
Speaker 1: Red flags. I feel like it's a good time to
Speaker 1: ask you about this. You've both been in the dating
Speaker 1: world at some points of your life. Did you both
Speaker 1: have red flags that you would look out for when
Speaker 1: it came to the type of people you chose to
Speaker 1: be in relationships with.
Speaker 4: Well, thankfully David and I skipped we by past the
Speaker 4: whole old life digital dating world, which were very grateful for,
Speaker 4: I have to say so. Yeah, I mean, of course,
Speaker 4: you know, everyone sees red Everyone's encountered red flags meeting
Speaker 4: new people, and whether they're friendships or you know, more
Speaker 4: intimate relationships whatever. Yeah, of course along the way, I've
Speaker 4: seen red flags. I mean, I don't know specifically what
Speaker 4: my red got so long ago that I was.
Speaker 3: I've never really dated. I don't know that my.
Speaker 2: Only equivalent one was. And it's not a dating situation.
Speaker 2: It was I became sort of sort of friendly with
Speaker 2: the man who was a poet and he was trying
Speaker 2: to get me involved in a film that he had
Speaker 2: a script that was being written and whatever, and I
Speaker 2: bumped him. Strangely happened to bump into this guy in
Speaker 2: really odd situations over a period of years, and to
Speaker 2: cover a very long story short, this poet slash scriptwriter
Speaker 2: ended up being a rather sophistic cave a drug smuggler
Speaker 2: and ended up in prison, and his brother contacted me
Speaker 2: and asked if I would appear in court as a
Speaker 2: character witness for him. It was only retrospectively I went
Speaker 2: through all those times that I had encountered this particular guy,
Speaker 2: and it was only then when I went back through
Speaker 2: and went, oh my god, that at the time, if
Speaker 2: they were the red flags, they were very, very very small,
Speaker 2: and I just let them go by.
Speaker 1: But do you pick them up along the way and
Speaker 1: there I think anybody we now have all of that
Speaker 1: red flags are something we didn't have before. Like when
Speaker 1: I was started out dating, no one talked about red
Speaker 1: flags be a different term for them. No one talked
Speaker 1: about gasoline.
Speaker 3: Great flags are instinct, don't they. I mean, that's what
Speaker 3: it is.
Speaker 4: It's your instinct and whether you acknowledge it or not
Speaker 4: is a choice, I guess, isn't it. And it's easy
Speaker 4: to not acknowledge your instinct that's telling you that there's
Speaker 4: something wrong and that you don't feel comfortable with somebody.
Speaker 4: It's easy to push that. It can be easy to
Speaker 4: push that down when the person that you're involved with
Speaker 4: has a certain amount of control. And I think that's
Speaker 4: true of the relationship between John Birdie too.
Speaker 2: Society is reliant on trust, the fact that we trust
Speaker 2: each other. The moment that all that trust goes out
Speaker 2: and we turn into a bunch of paralleled people going
Speaker 2: around the place, I think society would absolutely crumble. So
Speaker 2: I think we're hardwired to trust out the better aspects
Speaker 2: of people.
Speaker 1: I have these other questions for you both about it
Speaker 1: and Asha, you mentioned that you didn't you only saw
Speaker 1: Stephanie after you'd finished the show. Is that right, so
Speaker 1: you'd shot it.
Speaker 4: I think we were about three quarters of the way
Speaker 4: through and she came to visit day said visit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we said hello at lunchtime. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was curious about what her thoughts are on your performance,
Speaker 1: Like did she call you after? I haven't spoken to her.
Speaker 4: I don't want to know what I don't know what
Speaker 4: anyone thinks of my performance, of my business performance.
Speaker 1: If you ever feel insecure about yourself, feel free to
Speaker 1: give me a call. I could probably be one of
Speaker 1: your biggest fans all of your shows, like Love My Way.
Speaker 1: Someone gave that to me. I was working in radio
Speaker 1: at the time and it hadn't come out, and I
Speaker 1: watched the first season of Love My Way and it
Speaker 1: was like someone. Yeah, it was. It was like someone
Speaker 1: had lifted my my skull.
Speaker 3: I was like, it was a special show, wasn't it.
Speaker 1: Nothing had ever been made that felt as close to
Speaker 1: being real as that.
Speaker 3: It was special. The great group of people.
Speaker 1: And all the characters were incredibly flawed, and we hadn't
Speaker 1: seen that, you know, and we always had to have
Speaker 1: like a story, yeah.
Speaker 3: Not a no ensemble as a whole like that. I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 3: It was fairly daring, wasn't it in that way?
Speaker 1: And you were incredible as Julia. And I still mimic
Speaker 1: a lot of your lines from that show to my partner.
Speaker 1: And I told Claudia Carvn this story and she was disturbed.
Speaker 1: But whenever I put myself into a situation where I'm like,
Speaker 1: feel a bit uncomfortable and I need a little bit
Speaker 1: bit of extra confidence, I would pretend to be you.
Speaker 1: I would be like if I was at the doctors
Speaker 1: and I'd just sort of be worried about, you know,
Speaker 1: what I have to tell because I'd be scared of
Speaker 1: what they'd say back. I just become this version that
Speaker 1: I'd created in my head of like Nina Pratman, Like
Speaker 1: I just would just really come on, come on, give
Speaker 1: give I honestly, could I know, David, David. I thought
Speaker 1: about this so hard, but it's so bizarre, Like I
Speaker 1: would just go in there and you know that, ask
Speaker 1: a question and I just give all the answers, Like
Speaker 1: I don't even think it's a true comparison. I don't
Speaker 1: think that the doctor would be sitting there going is
Speaker 1: Benjamin Norris being Nina proud? Men?
Speaker 2: What's your favorit line?
Speaker 1: At Nash I can't even take my kids to the park,
Speaker 1: which is tom but we've got to go to the
Speaker 1: cross and get some pills. I kind of I kind
Speaker 1: of take my kids to.
Speaker 4: Talk about love my way because I recognize the lines
Speaker 4: from twenty years ago.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, we've got to.
Speaker 4: That is just too.
Speaker 3: Much that you remember that. I love it just so.
Speaker 1: But I say that all the time because my partner
Speaker 1: will come home it's my job to take the dog,
Speaker 1: our dog to the park at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: and he'll be like, what have you done all day? Like,
Speaker 1: you know, because I've obviously been podcasting and googling myself,
Speaker 1: I don't know, And he'd be like, why haven't you
Speaker 1: taken the dog to the park And I'd be like,
Speaker 1: I can't even take my dog to the park. I'm
Speaker 1: just so busy, and it's just very, very bad.
Speaker 3: They were great characters, aren't they.
Speaker 2: Yeah, cross to get my pills.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just so bizarre that so relatable content. I
Speaker 1: think when I watch some of the things that has
Speaker 1: been said on TV that have come out of your mouth, Fasher,
Speaker 1: I just think I just feel it's so relatable, like
Speaker 1: what about him?
Speaker 4: My gosh, Yeah, they come on, come on, we're all
Speaker 4: looking forward to seeing a.
Speaker 1: Bit though, David. I mean, there's so many of your movies.
Speaker 1: The Boys is one of them that I remember being
Speaker 1: in the cinema being that little bit too young, and
Speaker 1: I was frightened by that performance. Same that movie was frightening.
Speaker 1: I don't think I was. I was probably old enough,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't mentally old enough to watch. I think
Speaker 1: it came out in ninety seven or anyway, I would
Speaker 1: have been like seventeen or eighteen. Just but even in Australia,
Speaker 1: there was like this sound that you had with your performance, David,
Speaker 1: in that where you'd sort of finish your dialogue and
Speaker 1: walk away and it sort of had the sneer like
Speaker 1: just It's blown my mind to sit here and talk
Speaker 1: to the two of you today about these performances, and
Speaker 1: then for you, David, to say that you haven't watched
Speaker 1: a lot of it back, because yeah, I've been reveling
Speaker 1: in your work for three decades of amazing work.
Speaker 3: I sho watch the Boys and scare himself. That's what
Speaker 3: I reckon.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Yeah, go back and watch that. Actually,
Speaker 1: I'd love this. That's a separate podcast, just just you
Speaker 1: being forced to go back and unpack all of your
Speaker 1: all of your.
Speaker 2: Work that'd been interesting, like woulds it show Google books
Speaker 2: or whatever? Got Of course we have watched the reactions
Speaker 2: of us watching our own work and then having to
Speaker 2: talk about it. Yes, idiots, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Shocking, David. I was going to say that my dad
Speaker 1: really wanted me to be an actor for a while
Speaker 1: and I was terrible, Like he took me to audition
Speaker 1: for a country practice, couldn't remember the lines.
Speaker 3: And then you couldn't country breakfast.
Speaker 1: I'm forty four. I just looked good for my age.
Speaker 2: Wow wow, And did what happened?
Speaker 1: Well? I went in and read for the show, read
Speaker 1: for a country practice. I was to play a small
Speaker 1: kid who got sick from drinking contaminated water. Anyway, I
Speaker 1: definitely didn't get a call back, didn't get asked to
Speaker 1: do it, and through the idea of being an actor
Speaker 1: out the window for many years until I saw you
Speaker 1: in the movie Cozy, which was a film of yours
Speaker 1: at the cinemas in nineteen ninety six. After watching that film,
Speaker 1: I was like, I want to be an actor. It
Speaker 1: didn't well spoiler alert, that was great.
Speaker 2: Love that.
Speaker 1: Anyway, I am running out of time very quickly. And
Speaker 1: I have one question that I finished all of my
Speaker 1: podcasts with also was curious to know, Asha, what are
Speaker 1: your thoughts on Nicole Kidman doing the next season of
Speaker 1: Nine Perfect Strangers. I'm surprised there's a second series of that,
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you're involved in it. I
Speaker 1: don't know.
Speaker 4: No, No, I'm not. No, it's a whole new set
Speaker 4: of guests. Well, I mean, I don't think it's surprising.
Speaker 4: I think it's it lends itself that the set, you know,
Speaker 4: the environment of the show. What am I trying to say?
Speaker 4: It lends itself to a second series, absolutely, because you
Speaker 4: get a whole new raft of characters to explore.
Speaker 3: As the guests of Marsha Nicole's character.
Speaker 2: Could I be a guest? You could?
Speaker 1: You should be. They've already finished filming, David still.
Speaker 3: Have to do it.
Speaker 4: You'd be a great guest. Yeah, I'm excited to see it. No,
Speaker 4: I have nothing to do with it. It's all new
Speaker 4: folks except for Nicole of course.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: And she was Marshall. I found her so repulsive the
Speaker 1: whole way through people.
Speaker 4: In the best possible way, she's like the least. Yeah,
Speaker 4: she's the opposite of that. She's gorgeous.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Well, Before you go, I'll ask you both a
Speaker 1: question that I ask everyone who joins the podcast. What's
Speaker 1: something from behind the scenes, something that the audience who
Speaker 1: have watched fake wouldn't get to know, kind of like
Speaker 1: a funny anecdote that might have happened along the way into.
Speaker 2: While in making it.
Speaker 4: You know, this is one of the trickiest questions to answer.
Speaker 3: Do you put this to all your kids?
Speaker 2: And is you're a longboard after you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you. I'll tell you a funny thing.
Speaker 1: The reason why it's there is because the very first
Speaker 1: guest I had was an executive producer from a television show,
Speaker 1: and I asked him that question just because I put
Speaker 1: it in the rundown and it was interesting. He answered
Speaker 1: the question and it got repeated all around the world.
Speaker 1: It literally was in I think it was something like
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty articles were created. Did answer? Well.
Speaker 1: He was the executive producer of I'm a Celebrity, Get
Speaker 1: Me out of Here. And I asked him for what's
Speaker 1: you know, a story from behind the scenes, and he
Speaker 1: told this story about how he had this celebrity in
Speaker 1: the jungle who sat there one day and told this
Speaker 1: long story about how he met and had sex with
Speaker 1: someone very, very famous. However, he ran out of the
Speaker 1: jungle up to the studio camera like to and said,
Speaker 1: I just realized that I've told that story in with
Speaker 1: time and dates and everything, and I was married at
Speaker 1: the time, and.
Speaker 3: You know, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: So he'd run out of the set of the show
Speaker 1: like just like a madman, like you know'd been in
Speaker 1: that jungle, and that confines with that jungle really just
Speaker 1: talking about all this stuff, and then he thought, hang
Speaker 1: on a zank, No, I was married when.
Speaker 3: That had running out to tell them that he could
Speaker 3: don't play it.
Speaker 2: And what happened?
Speaker 1: Did?
Speaker 2: They didn't?
Speaker 1: They they did. They changed it. And the interesting thing
Speaker 1: about that, producer Alex Madverttichers, was that he he didn't
Speaker 1: say in the podcast who it was. But what was
Speaker 1: really interesting about it was that it spawned the listeners
Speaker 1: to try and work out who they thought it was.
Speaker 1: So people thought it was Shane Warn, people thought it
Speaker 1: was all of these different people. In England, it got
Speaker 1: picked up and it was in the press over there.
Speaker 1: I launched this TV podcast episode.
Speaker 3: Wow, I don't think anywhere. No, nothing juicy. I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: Do we have a shared anecdote? What anecdotes are not
Speaker 4: my strong point.
Speaker 2: I had to say no, not when you're just yeah,
Speaker 2: they come into spontaneously memories very difficult.
Speaker 3: I think that happened. Did anything happen? That was kind of.
Speaker 1: What I would like to know is clearly the two
Speaker 1: of you don't audition for these things and actually are
Speaker 1: a producer of But did you both get together to
Speaker 1: see what the chemistry was like between the two of you,
Speaker 1: because these two, these two characters, like from the moment
Speaker 1: you two meet in that very first scene, you then
Speaker 1: build and build and build with the relationship between the
Speaker 1: two of you. How did you create that the tension
Speaker 1: and the spark between the two of you.
Speaker 4: Well, I guess that's what actors do, you know. I mean,
Speaker 4: this sort of strange thing about chemistry were actors.
Speaker 3: This is what actors do.
Speaker 4: And luckily, you know, it's great when you work with
Speaker 4: someone and you share a similar process and you have
Speaker 4: perhaps a similar sense of humor and you there is
Speaker 4: an ease and a relaxation between you, And certainly that's
Speaker 4: true of David to Night. You know that that's kind
Speaker 4: of wonderful when that happens. But if it's not there
Speaker 4: in any given partnership on screen, you create it.
Speaker 3: That's what we do.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, do you remember that quote from I think
Speaker 1: it's Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins and they both filmed
Speaker 1: The Science of the Lamps and they both there together,
Speaker 1: you know, the whole way through the film. And to
Speaker 1: create that they you know, just their actors. They both
Speaker 1: tell the story. They just that was the role they
Speaker 1: had to play. But they bore best to each other
Speaker 1: later on that they were scared of each other. Anthony
Speaker 1: was scared of her as Clarice and she was scared
Speaker 1: of him as as Hannibal. Like they were sort of
Speaker 1: frightened Ashra I wondered whether or not, you know, at
Speaker 1: certain times, did you look at Joe and were you
Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, David's Joe is so frightening right now.
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 4: There were plenty of times where I felt very affected
Speaker 4: by it, and a lot of the time I wasn't
Speaker 4: entire Even though we are very much like to interrogate
Speaker 4: the words on the page, I suppose and make sure
Speaker 4: that the scene we're going to deliver is what we
Speaker 4: wanted to be, there's also plenty of surprise in performance,
Speaker 4: you know, and with David there was all the time
Speaker 4: I wasn't quite sure what I was going to get,
Speaker 4: and I was, you know, did feel like on a
Speaker 4: as relaxed and comfortable as we felt together, characters also
Speaker 4: were being propelled by a great deal of emotion both
Speaker 4: of them, and a need to be understood and a
Speaker 4: need to be heard.
Speaker 3: So I think there were plenty of surprises along the way.
Speaker 4: I mean there were for me as we were performing together,
Speaker 4: wasn't always sure what was going to come next.
Speaker 3: But I love that. That's the fun.
Speaker 1: That's why you do it, hey, That's why we do it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the story that you know there's many different ways
Speaker 4: to tell a story, and it's fun.
Speaker 3: To do that.
Speaker 1: I'm just so in awe of you both as actors people,
Speaker 1: and what a joy to be able to talk to
Speaker 1: you to both today, particularly about this show, which I
Speaker 1: think is just got legs. I think it's going to
Speaker 1: get up and run away because very much like Baby Reindeer,
Speaker 1: everything about this is compelling. You could come at this
Speaker 1: story from so many different angles. So for anyone listening
Speaker 1: to us talking about this today, subscribe to Paramount Plus
Speaker 1: and disappear into this world. It's compelling and brilliant work
Speaker 1: from both of you. Amazing.
Speaker 2: Thanks, thanks so much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, good chalk, thank you, really good.
Speaker 1: Thank you anyway, enjoy chatting. I'll let you both go, but.
Speaker 3: You liked it.
Speaker 1: What's love to you both.
Speaker 3: Sayd bye