WEBVTT - ASHER KEDDIE & DAVID WENHAM - FAKE - PARAMOUNT + 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:01.760 It's in the news today, but it was actually on 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:02.920 TV Reload. 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:04.040 The podcast last week They're Life. 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:06.920 Hey guys, welcome back to TV Reload. I want to 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.480 thank you for clicking and downloading on today's episode with 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.560 Asher Ketty and David Wenham, who are both featured in 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.880 the new Paramount Plus series Fake. The eight part limited 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:19.079 series is based on a true story when magazine feature 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:22.799 writer Bertie Bell meets success for grazier Joe Bert on 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:25.240 a dating app and believes that she has found her 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:29.280 perfect match. But as the relationship intensifies, Bertie begins to 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.559 feel her boyfriend isn't all that he has led her 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.440 to believe. The scary fact is that men in the 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:38.360 real world are doing this every day, and sadly, this 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.400 is becoming a common story. The series is based on 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.280 a book by the author Stephanie Wood, and the way 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:49.080 in which the show unpacks psychological fantastica is groundbreaking work 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.120 for the team of content creators that bring you this series. 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.480 The whole series is available to view on Paramount Plus 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.760 right now, and I don't say this lightly. Sign up 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:02.400 and stream this show right now. It is phenomenal. At 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.080 this point of the podcast, I usually intro my guests 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:07.120 and give you a bit of a summary. But my 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.400 guest today Asha Kenny and David Wenem need no introduction 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.880 because we have been in their audience for decades. I 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.399 will talk about how Asher and David created these characters from, 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.520 how much they borrowed from the book, what David thinks 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.920 about his characters lying, and if Asher was able to 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.200 watch back her most intense performance to date. We will 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:30.760 unpack the obsession of true crime, what this says about us, 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:35.400 and why audiences now demand smarter scripted dramas. There is 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.240 an opportunity to talk to Asher about her roles on 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:41.120 Offspring and Love My Way, which is very exciting for me. 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.200 And David will reveal a shocking truth about his on 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.080 screen roles, which is fascinating to hear considering his filmography. 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:50.440 You will find out if there is going to be 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:53.040 a second series of Fake. We will talk about the 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.600 laws that need to be implemented on falsifying and manipulating 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.360 people in the dating world. Guys, there is so much 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:01.920 to unpack with Asher and David today, so sit back 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.120 and relax as we unpack the complicated world of Fake, 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.840 which is now on Paramount Plus thank you both for 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.200 doing this and for talking to me. I am such 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.440 a big fan of both of you and this series 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:15.800 is absolutely incredible. 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:17.000 Thank you, guys. 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.200 I have a friend of mine who works in the 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.720 media and he rang me one afternoon and said that 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:24.520 he needed to write a feature the next day and 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.240 was looking for ideas. And I said to him, You've 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.919 got to write about Fake because I'd watched the screeners. 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.639 I watched it all in one go, all eight episodes 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.240 in one sitting, and I said, you have to watch it. 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.920 It is so compelling. Everyone in Australia is going to 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.600 be talking about it. Get on board, get ahead of 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:45.280 the story. And he said, could I say that it's 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:49.560 Australia's baby Reindeer. And I was like, yes, yes, it is. 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:53.080 It is. It's Australia's baby Reindeer because everyone is going 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:54.800 to watch it all in one. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:56.320 Go oh gosh, that's good. 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:00.040 So people need to cancel all of their subscriptions. I 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:01.880 need to get Paramour Plus. 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:03.800 That's right, and put aside one night where they don't 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:04.800 sleep and just watch it all. 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.920 Yes, how did you both find watching the show? You 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:11.400 guys were there creating these characters and reading these lines. 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:14.280 But then have you were you able to watch it 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:16.280 as a viewer? What was that like? 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.200 Well, I don't know if Day's watched it. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:20.600 No, I don't. I hardly ever watch my own work. 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:25.000 I don't watch stuff. Unfortunately. I wish I could, because 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:29.240 I'm hypercritical and so I can't be completely objective and 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.560 just watch something and enjoy it for what it is. Yeah, 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.360 I've always have my critical faculties on, so I'm not 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.920 a consumer. I don't watch anything. Really. I read. I 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.640 know that it's sort of bamboozles people, but yeah, that's 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:43.920 just me. I'm a book weirder. 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.880 Well, I read mostly too, that's my entertainment. 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:51.040 I think we are actually very similar in our process 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:52.960 doing the actual work. 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:54.880 That's a bit that we like doing it. 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:57.600 It is the true thing, that's the process being enjoyed 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.600 the most, right, So, and this says was incredible together 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:06.960 was creatively it was just so so satisfying, wonderful. But 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.680 we are a little different in that spect in post production. 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.640 So I'm quite okay to watch something I didn't used 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:16.480 to be. I used to be very much like David. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.720 Oh god, no, I the thought of watching myself was mortifying. 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:21.800 I would just pull myself apart, and I want to 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:23.800 go back and do it again, and what would be 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:25.960 the point of watching something? For many years, I carried 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:28.400 on like that and thought, I'm just it's best not 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.159 to see, you know, because the process is what's that's 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.599 the fun part. But I've thought about this. I think 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.719 doing Offspring for all those years helped me to be 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:38.440 a little. 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:39.240 Bit more objective. 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.040 I mean, frankly, I just got you know you're watching 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.480 if you're in every scene and you're sort of. 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.360 A part of well. I wasn't a producer on that show. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.680 I was really involved in you know, early cuts, and 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.040 it was important to me to watch it. I think 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.640 I became a little more relaxed about it, which is 0:04:57.720 --> 0:04:59.960 kind of good because I'm with the show like Fate 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.159 I was producing, and I really do need to watch it. 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:03.600 I need to sit in the carts and need to 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.919 do in the sound mixes. And I was able to 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:10.960 see this story in particular a lot more holistically than 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.760 you know, pull myself about. 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:17.240 For me, the reason why I don't watch myself is 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:19.920 Ash is a producer on this, which is fantastic, is 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.560 I have no control over what goes on the screen. 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.359 I have no control over the performance. So I have 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.279 control on the day, but in terms of the construction 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.120 of the piece, I have no controller. Obviously, very very 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.120 frustrating sometimes and annoying when you know that, well, actually, 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.920 if only they've done that, that would have belong. So 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:40.800 that's why I don't watch. It's better not to stay away. 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:42.400 I was going to say, is that a fear of 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.040 the lack of control because you're going to see something 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:46.960 and you're going to go I need that to be changed. 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.480 You do want to enter that space because I guess you. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:51.760 Can consider the opportunity to make things better. 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.720 Yeah, it's a drive for perfection and I understand that, 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:58.960 and certainly for me with anything i'm not producing, I 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.280 don't really have the desire to watch it either, because 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:01.880 we've done it. 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:05.160 We've completed the world. Really, you know, that's the bit 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:06.320 for us. And it's just true. 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.159 We have to say that I just only was curious 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:11.039 about this, and I don't feel like I've ever asked that. 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.840 This is episode like four hundred and forty of this podcast, 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:17.360 and I don't think I've ever asked one question to anyone, 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:20.520 because I can't imagine that it would be a comfortable experience. 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:22.640 But I think because the way in which this show 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.760 has been put together, it's so visceral, and it's so compelling, 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:30.200 and the way in which it flows just almost feels 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:32.960 like wanting to watch yourself back on a roller coaster. 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:35.680 That's the only reason why I thought maybe you both 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:37.920 might have and David, maybe you should start watching some 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:38.400 of your work. 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:43.320 It's incredible, very but honestly, it's like, yeah, iys, I 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.200 always look forward, So yeah, the thing that I'm involved 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:48.160 in it, you know, at any point in time, that's 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:53.000 where I'm focusing. Yeah, But honestly, it's the action of 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:55.719 creating that's the thing that really fires me. 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.440 Actually, you managed to work alongside some a lot of 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.279 the people that created Safe Home SBS last year, which 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:04.599 was like another series that very similar to this, was 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.960 very it was psychological thriller in a way because of 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:11.680 what's going on. Did you watch Safe Home last year? 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:14.320 And I did? Yeah, I thought it was brilliant. It's 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:16.680 another image in banks produce that well. 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:17.800 Yeah, of course, yeah. 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.160 I had her on the podcast to talk about it. 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.960 I remember saying to her again, we're drinking, but we're 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.760 not boozounds. By the way, but I remember saying to Imagen, 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:27.760 I was like, I felt kind of bad that I 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.880 was drinking red wine while watching this show is entertainment 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.920 because the subject matter was so dark but yet so compelling. 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.720 And it feels kind of strange that these days, here 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.840 we are with our popcorn, you know, a glass of wine, 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.600 watching true crime like this, digesting true crime like this. 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:45.320 It's strange. 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.600 Well, I think people, I think people are leaning into 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:53.520 watching really smart drama. And I don't think that the content, 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.120 even if the content's brutal or it's uncomfortable or confronting 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.680 or however you want to describe it, if it's emotionally 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:04.320 pulsive thus compelling, then it's entertaining. So I don't think 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:08.160 it matters whether it's you know, a comedy or the 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:12.880 subject matter is light, or whether it's this where you know, 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:16.280 you're diving heavily into the psyche of a woman that 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:20.400 is is repressing her instinct and a man that is 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:25.400 a fantasist really that is, you know, who believes his 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.960 own narrative. I mean, there's so many layers to it 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.920 that as long as it's got that propulsion and it 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.560 helped makes you want to lean in I think that, 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:39.200 you know, it can still be really entertaining as opposed 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.559 to just feeling dark or heavy or I. 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.760 Think for some reason we sort of feel maybe it's 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.120 just me, but I feel compelled to find out more 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:50.360 about people. I love people watching people, and I think 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:54.040 that this particular series is almost like a character study 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.800 on the psychological fantastica, which you know, like gas lighting 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:01.240 and all of these new terms that are coming about 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.640 are all things we're kind of fascinated with because we 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:09.160 see them in our real world. We recognize them in people. David, 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:13.760 how did you go about creating this character? Because it's 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:17.240 so well paced throughout this show, and this man does 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.880 exist in the real world, there's people like this man. 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:22.560 How did you go about creating a character? Did you 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:27.040 make decisions about his lying? Did you go, oh, he 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:31.719 believes his own lies. I just felt curious about how 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:32.280 you did it. 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:36.160 That's an interesting question. Actually, did he believe his own lies? Yeah? 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:39.640 As ashually said, he he's a classic fantasist, and the 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.000 thing with him, I believe this is how I approach 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.319 the character. He literally believes everything that he said. There 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:50.320 is no distinction between reality and fantasy for him, and 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:54.000 I think that's what makes it really interesting that even 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.840 within the most fantastical situations, there's enough of a kernel 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.840 of truth in there somewhere to keep Birdie still believing 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:06.120 that this is actually okay, quite real, even if it 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.200 was just you know, sometimes the situations are potentially quite 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.560 ridiculous that he creates, well, even so, he gives her 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:16.880 just enough to think that potentially, actually, no I can 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:20.920 trust him. So the approach was quite simply to play 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.440 every moment as truthfully as possible. There was never, from 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.840 his perspective, any time that he lied to anybody, and 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.800 I think in doing that, it makes it well, that's 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:35.240 not so interesting. Yeah, it makes it difficult for Birdie 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.720 and also the audience to distinguish what israel and what 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:39.200 is fake. 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:41.120 I had a girlfriend that went out with a guy 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:43.840 very similar to this, not as drawn out, and it 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.760 was sort of It's interesting because like this, this show 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:48.559 sort of has it beginning in the middle and an end, 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.439 and it's based on a true story. My girlfriend only 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.480 really had a small situation with this man, and she 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:56.040 quickly worked it out. And the interesting thing about this 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:59.719 man was that there was this presence about him that 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:03.080 was so it was sort of intoxicating and alluring, but 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.520 yet there was something kind of murky the whole time. 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:06.960 Everyone that was ever. 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.120 With this person, you felt it something. 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:12.240 Yeah, it was bubbling away behind the surface. And no 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.160 one could say that to my friend and she knew 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.200 it as well. But it's you know, you felt like 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:20.120 it's rude to pull your friend aside and says, this 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.080 man you're in love with or spending time is he 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:25.800 a liar? And that's what's interesting about this as well, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:30.560 is watching Birdie struggle with what she can probably sense 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:34.480 the whole time is happening, but she is pushing it 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.680 away as hard as she can. She doesn't want. 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:40.440 She's also questioning herself, you see, because you know her 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.679 self esteem is low, she's lacking in confidence. 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:45.280 That's this time in her life. 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:49.079 So not that that means that that That's why Joe 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:53.160 was able to get her to believe his narrative because I. 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.240 Think it can happen to anyone. I really do, and 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:57.679 I love when. 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:01.520 David talks about this. There's we we inherently trust people. 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:03.520 We want to believe what they say. 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.560 I met a gentleman who is an ex federal policeman 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.240 who now is a private investigator and he gets hired 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:14.880 by people to basically to investigate if people are having affairs. 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:16.760 That's one of the things he does. And the first 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.760 thing he'll do is ask the client, Okay, tell me 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:23.920 what you know about this gentleman. And the client will say, well, 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:25.640 he's told me he's a blah blah blah. Then he 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:27.200 told me he got that, and then he told me 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.840 what he would do. And the investigator always say, Okay, 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.200 stop there, that's what he's told you. What do you 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:37.320 know about him? And when that happens, he suddenly he goes, oh, actually, 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.280 I don't really know anything because we're believed other than 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.480 what you've been told. Yeah, and it's a frightening thing. 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:49.640 So you're reliant on trust when you trust people. 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.760 That's human nature. We want to trust people and we 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.520 want to be we want to feel good and swept 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:59.960 up and connected to other people emotionally and physically. 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.600 And you can see how easily this can happen. 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:04.920 I like to think about it as in as we 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:07.720 as human loves to fill the dots. We can all 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:09.600 go into the room and see something. We can all 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:11.960 see the same thing and come out and interpret it. Differently, 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.360 and it usually is because of the way in which 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.520 we want to interpret that situation. The lens that we 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:20.960 put over the top of it, I find is really 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:24.680 fascinating and it's something that we all struggle to really 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:25.880 admit that we've done. 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.760 Yeah, and we all do it, and we're. 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.640 All doing it all of the time, which is like, 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.760 is crazy? So fake is inspired by Stephanie Wood's memoir, 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.280 and I have to say, I am such a big 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.160 fan of Mom and Mere podcast Maya Freeman Friedman and 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:42.600 Asha obviously you are too, because you basically are her 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:44.400 and another series that you're filming at. 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.480 The moment, very inspired by her. 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.600 But had you listened to that episode of her podcast 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:51.880 when she had Stephanie on there, Because I listened to 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.440 it in twenty nineteen and I was completely riveted by 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.160 her bravery to share that story. 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:02.040 Yes, I know, right, listen to the podcast. I just 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.000 I read the book, and of course it is our 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:09.560 drama is inspired by her experience, but it is very 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.600 much also our own interpretation of it. I guess I 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.160 just wanted to stick with the I only read the 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:18.960 book once too. I didn't refer to it again. I 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.600 just I read it I felt very compelled by it. 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:25.400 I wanted to be involved in developing a TV show 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:30.960 with Imagen, and we were inspired by the themes that 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.280 Stephanie explores in her book as opposed to the specifics 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:37.120 as such. I mean, you know, you create drama based 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:39.200 on a book or inspired by a book, and you 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.880 take the things you're really compelled by and you develop them. 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:44.440 And that's what we did with this show. 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.400 So it's very much, you know, a fictional show about 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.600 these two people, but yet that many, many, many people 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.080 globally have experienced. So I guess that you know, what 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.920 we set out to do was to make it the 0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:00.920 most experiential journey we could, mean inside the point of 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.600 view of Bertie and then of Joe as well. 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:05.760 Yeah, it was interesting. I went back and listened to 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.480 the podcast this morning, just coincidentally with having a little 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.560 bit more time before chatting to you, and I shocked 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:15.440 at how much of her dialogue you say exactly the 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:16.000 same way. 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:17.000 Oh do you think? 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.560 And it must be coincidental you're not mimicking her tones, 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.280 as in your not trying to well. 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.320 I didn't speak to her before throughout the shoot. No, 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:28.240 I met her at the end. I think we met 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:28.840 her at the end. 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.760 Yet that is so unbelievable to hear because like, oh, granted, 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.600 I listened to that podcast in twenty nineteen, so I'd 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.880 had a long disconnect from it and then watched the series, 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:40.960 and it was so interesting then to listen to that 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.080 podcast and hears Stephanie's words and for her to say 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.760 very clear piece of dialogue that you had in the series. 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.320 I think Annye did take from the book in some ways, 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.600 like actual instances, you know, the events that it had 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.080 occurred for her. We certainly did that. But I think 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.360 that's the point is that this can happen to anybody, 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:06.280 and has happened to many people. An involvement like this 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:12.000 that unfortunately can push you someone into kind of losing 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.920 their identity as they know it. It's very common, so 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.600 we all kind of speak about it similarly, do you know. 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:18.960 What I mean? 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:22.280 Yeah, Well, it was interesting. I'll just say, like tonally, 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.080 you weren't sounding like her, but the emotion of what 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.720 she was saying was what you captured and what was 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.640 there Again, of course that's how you're going to sort 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.520 of use the nuances to say those words, Do you 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.960 know what I mean? Because it's so emotional. You know, 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:38.680 there's a podcast who the Hell is Hamish or Who 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:40.560 the Fuck is Hamish that's out at the moment, and 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:42.840 it's all the same sort of thing. It's about a 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.760 man who did this multiple times, and then you get 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:48.200 to hear the voices of all of these women that 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.760 he has manipulated over the years. I just assumed that 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:54.680 it was the same guy and then was disturbed to 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.400 find out that there was all of these podcasts of 0:16:57.480 --> 0:16:59.800 these men doing this, so sort of circling back what 0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:01.960 was saying before. Do you think that these men are 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:06.159 doing it for attention? Like what would make somebody in 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.520 your minds want to do that to someone? 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.040 I think I think there's a few different categories here. 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:13.640 There's you know, there was a show on Netflix, Tinderswindler 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.600 that was a specific example of a guy who obviously 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.200 was motivated by you know, he wanted, he wanted He 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.480 screwed women for sex and money and what There was 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:26.840 a very clear motivation. This guy in Fake Joe Burt 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.639 is not that person. He for me, for my mind, 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.120 there was no malevolent we can argue about this. There 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.159 was no malevolence in his intent, which makes it interesting 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.960 because you're working out why on earth is he doing this? 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.600 There's no you know, there's no monetary gain, there's nothing 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:45.720 without giving it away. We know that, you know, Joe 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.840 doesn't really have very much. I spoke to a psychiatrist 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.280 about it, and he said that there's a particular syndrome 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.040 psychological syndrome I can't remember the name for it now, 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:59.679 where by people do things that objectively we think they're strange, 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.840 we don't quite understand them, and this particular group of 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.400 people it goes under a little term whereby we're never 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:10.160 going to understand their motivation. They just do things that 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.320 are confounding and we don't know why. 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:14.320 That's urinating but confounding. 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.120 You know, obviously her psychological condition without a doubt, and 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.800 he's not. I would contend that he's not really aware 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.600 of the extent of damage, psychological damage that he is 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:27.159 actually causing on women. 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.280 Agree my family, I reckon have this in our DNA. Now, 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.399 this is a big thing to sort of say, because 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:37.159 I really, yeah, it's in our DNA, and I have 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.280 to try really hard not to do it. I'm sure 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:42.560 people listening to my podcast over the four years probably 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.400 find it quite disturbing that I'm even admitting to this, 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:50.520 But I was brought up around fantastic storytellers people men 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:52.800 that were in our family, women that were in our 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.480 family that were very good at telling story. There was 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.080 a lot of pressure around. We had a Sunday lunch 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.000 every Sunday, our whole family would get together, from the 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.840 top of our grandparents down and they all had these 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.560 amazing stories. And it was kind of said to me, 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:09.680 you know, if you want to hold the fort, if 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:11.840 you want to hold the table and get people's attention 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.680 to your story has to be very good. And so 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:17.840 I got very good at being able to tell stories. 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.040 And then it wasn't until years later that I found 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.000 out that half of those stories that were being told 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:26.199 to me by my grandfather were He knew that they 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.280 were crap, like do you know what I mean, and 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.800 he'd hold it with no malice. There was no malice 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.240 in telling these stories, like. 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.760 In complete conviction, with complete. 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.320 And utter conviction. And that was all my mom's side 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.200 of the family, but my dad had it as well. 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:44.560 Dad would just be there freely telling people stories that 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.200 I would as a child would be sitting there. 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:48.800 Going on everywhere. 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:51.840