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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, we want our kids to love learning, and homework

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Speaker 2: seems to be a pretty reliable way to help kids

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Speaker 2: to hate learning and undermine their curiosity. Plus, we want

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Speaker 2: them involved in life after school. We don't want them

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Speaker 2: coming home and having to pull a second shift.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're starting another week with a big topic this morning. Hello,

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Speaker 2: this is doctor justin Course. I'm here with my wife Kylie,

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Speaker 2: mum to our six kids. I'm the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com dot I you thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for joining us for the Happy Families Podcast today. A

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Speaker 2: whole lot of school issues and this is born out

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Speaker 2: of a couple of things. Number One, a friend of

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Speaker 2: mine you may know her, Rebecca Sparrow, wrote something really,

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Speaker 2: really provocative, really engaging on Facebook last year and I've

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Speaker 2: been holding onto it until today, around the expectations that

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Speaker 2: we have for our children and schooling. We're going to

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Speaker 2: get into the ds here and talk about some important

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Speaker 2: things about homework, but also those expectations for our kids

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Speaker 2: as they get older and what we demand of them academically,

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Speaker 2: whether it's good or bad. Then we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about the latest news coming primarily out of New South

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Speaker 2: Wales as a review into school hours commencers, and there's

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Speaker 2: talk of changing the hours so much that it's going

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Speaker 2: to completely revolutionize the way school happens. Kylie the comment

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Speaker 2: from Rebecca Sparrow. Can I read that to you and

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Speaker 2: then we'll talk about that.

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Speaker 3: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: A friend of mine says, Rebecca took her son to

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Speaker 2: a year seven orientation the other night at he's soon

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Speaker 2: to be new high school. I remember this last year

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Speaker 2: and I've held it off until now. The parents and

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Speaker 2: kids were told that there was an expectation that kids

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Speaker 2: would be doing ninety minutes of homework per night. Ninety

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Speaker 2: minutes of homework per night for twelve year olds. Has

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Speaker 2: the world gone mad? Asks Rebecca Sparrow. She says, I

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Speaker 2: wasn't doing ninety minutes of homework in year twelve, so

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Speaker 2: that's our first topic of conversation. But let me add

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Speaker 2: the second thing that she's shared in this post. She said, meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: another friend as a child in year twelve who is

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Speaker 2: now madly trying to memorize all kinds of information for

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Speaker 2: the upcoming EIGHTAR exams. What possible benefit is they're enforcing

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Speaker 2: kids to memorize all this material. It's twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: for Pete's sake, and a year ten girl I know

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Speaker 2: said she's planning to do the suicide six in years

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Speaker 2: eleven and twelve. That's the nickname given where you choose

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Speaker 2: to do physics, Biology, chemistry, English, Maths B, and Maths C.

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Speaker 3: In your senior years. And then I love this insight,

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Speaker 3: Beck says.

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Speaker 2: You know, I see all this talk about how our

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Speaker 2: old schools are about our kids' mental health. I see

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Speaker 2: politicians talking about it and education boards, but we are

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Speaker 2: running in the opposite direction to what our kids need.

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Speaker 2: Our kids well being in their future careers are not

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Speaker 2: reliant on single scores at the end of year twelve.

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Speaker 2: Don't buy into that message. Year twelve scores are about

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Speaker 2: school marketing, brochures and universities using scarcity as a tactic.

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Speaker 2: There are so many different pathways to take after school, Kylie,

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Speaker 2: what's your reaction.

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Speaker 4: I wonder as a parent how many things we worry

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Speaker 4: about are actually unnecessary and cause added strain and intense

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Speaker 4: pressure on our children.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, what a great what a great summary of that,

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Speaker 2: and education seems to be one of those areas where

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Speaker 2: we do it the most.

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Speaker 3: Can we talk about homework?

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Speaker 4: It is one of your I want to say, Pet

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Speaker 4: Peeves pet topics.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've been talking about this for a long time,

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Speaker 2: haven't I. So let's stip into it. We're going to

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Speaker 2: link in the show notes to the homework letter that

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Speaker 2: we used to send to school with our kids. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of just become part of our culture, and you

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Speaker 2: know what, like our family culture. I mean, and I've

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Speaker 2: probably I've probably softened my stance since I originally wrote

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Speaker 2: the letter.

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Speaker 3: But basically the letter.

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Speaker 2: Says, dear teacher, we love you, are so glad that

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Speaker 2: you care about our kids and that you're doing the

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Speaker 2: great work that you do. Just want to let you

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Speaker 2: know we're not going to be encouraging our kids to

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Speaker 2: do homework. Now. This is for our primary school age children, right.

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Speaker 2: We don't do this for the high schoolers. It's for

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Speaker 2: our primary school age kids. And the idea is we're

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Speaker 2: basically saying we want our kids to love learning, and

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Speaker 2: homework seems to be a pretty reliable way to help

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Speaker 2: kids to hate learning. And undermine their curiosity. Plus, we

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Speaker 2: want them involved in life after school. We don't want

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Speaker 2: them coming home and having to pull a second shift.

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Speaker 2: Let's get them outside playing, going to the beach, going

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Speaker 2: to the park, riding, they're bike seeing friends. As long

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Speaker 2: as they're not playing video games all afternoon or something

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Speaker 2: like that. We really want our kids to be engaged

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Speaker 2: in life. That's the essence of the letter.

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Speaker 4: And I think for the most part, as a result

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Speaker 4: of the way we see things, our kids have had

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Speaker 4: a pretty balanced childhood.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And you know what's interesting is.

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Speaker 4: The neighbors and enjoy family time without that added stress

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Speaker 4: and strain of having to meet deadlines at six, seven,

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Speaker 4: eight ten. It's crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they seem to graduate primary school and do Okay,

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Speaker 2: we haven't had any ducks of primary school. But I mean,

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Speaker 2: who's really got that on their Twitter account profile?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: Who's saying I was the ducks of grade six? I'm

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Speaker 2: something special. That's not what it's about, right, It's about

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Speaker 2: enjoying childhood.

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Speaker 4: I'm really interested on your take on senior years because

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Speaker 4: obviously you've ignored that it's a different kettle of fish

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Speaker 4: that we're dealing with. By the time our kids are

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Speaker 4: in year ten, eleven, and twelve. What things can we

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Speaker 4: do as parents to kind of help our kids find

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Speaker 4: balance in these senior years when there is so much

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Speaker 4: pressure to conform and to perform so that they can

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Speaker 4: reach their goals.

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Speaker 2: Before I answer that question, it just occurred to me,

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Speaker 2: I have never in my life seen a kettle of fish.

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Speaker 2: I wonder where that came from. I'm sorry, have you

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Speaker 2: ever seen a kettle of fish? Actually, you're from New Zealand,

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Speaker 2: you probably have.

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Speaker 4: I haven't seen a kettle of fish.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but I know that you've got some stories about

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Speaker 2: fish heads when your uncle came to visit. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: I digress this comment that Beck has made the suicide

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Speaker 2: six doing these six subjects that are so hard because

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Speaker 2: you want to get a high score to get into university,

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Speaker 2: the pressure to.

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Speaker 3: Get those year twelve scores.

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Speaker 2: I love how she says this is actually about school

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Speaker 2: marketing brochures and university is using scarcity as a tactic.

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Speaker 3: Here's what I know. I was a high school failure.

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Speaker 2: Score in the bottom of fifteen percent in year twelve

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Speaker 2: in one of my subjects, and my overall score was abysmal.

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Speaker 2: I was never going to get into university, and yet

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Speaker 2: in my mid to late twenties, once I'd sort of

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Speaker 2: grown up a little bit, my brain was working the

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Speaker 2: way it needed to. I went back to Taife and

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Speaker 2: then I went to school and I ended up getting

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Speaker 2: a PhD.

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Speaker 3: I did undergrad and then.

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Speaker 2: Postgraduate psychology studies and got a PhD. Didn't finish till

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Speaker 2: my thirties. It certainly was a slow, hard way to

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Speaker 2: do it, but I wouldn't change it for the world.

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Speaker 2: I think that it made me a better student to

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Speaker 2: go back later and have that The idea that our

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Speaker 2: children have got to get high school so that they

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Speaker 2: can get into university, and the only way to get

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Speaker 2: into university is to get those high schools is a

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Speaker 2: complete falsehood. I usily and totally reject it.

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Speaker 3: Kylie. You will back me up on this.

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Speaker 2: Our approach with our kids has been we hope that

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Speaker 2: you really enjoy year twelve. We're not going to ask

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Speaker 2: you to study, We're not going to put any pressure

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Speaker 2: on you whatsoever, and we're going to encourage you to

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Speaker 2: take a gap year or two or three and go

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Speaker 2: to university when you know what you want to do

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Speaker 2: and you're ready to do the learning.

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Speaker 4: That intrinsic motivation to learn is so important or else

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Speaker 4: it's just so hard. There's no other word for it.

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Speaker 3: It's hard. Yeah, So point made.

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Speaker 2: Rebecca Sparrow, Thank you for your brilliant insights and for

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Speaker 2: sharing what you've done, and hopefully, hopefully the things that

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Speaker 2: we've talked about just now support and add a little

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Speaker 2: bit of weight around that. There's plenty of research evidence

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Speaker 2: that we could quote, but I just wanted to share

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Speaker 2: this and talk about it briefly because we're now into

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Speaker 2: the school year and things have started to heat up.

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Speaker 2: The pressure is on, people are finally getting into that

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Speaker 2: routine of school, and I thought it was worth discussing kindly.

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Speaker 2: After the break, let's talk about something else that's been

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Speaker 2: in the news lately, New South Wales talking about changing

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Speaker 2: up school hours.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 5: Our Screens Creating Tension at Home Betweens, Teens and Screens

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Speaker 5: is a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.

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Speaker 5: Bye today at Happy families dot com. Are you slash shop?

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers Now and Today we're

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Speaker 4: talking about school homework and school hours. New South Wales

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Speaker 4: seems to be changing things up a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Well, at this point, they're talking about what it might

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Speaker 2: look like to try to make school hours more useful

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Speaker 2: for families. They're suggesting that nine till three or thereabouts

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Speaker 2: isn't really working for a lot of families. And from

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Speaker 2: what I'm reading, Kylie, and you actually read more about

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Speaker 2: this than I have, it seems like they're looking at

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Speaker 2: bringing the school start back to about seven thirty in

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Speaker 2: the morning and finishing early afternoon.

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Speaker 4: Well, look, when we were living in Wollongong, there was

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Speaker 4: actually an all boys school edmund Rice College who were

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Speaker 4: already doing that, and that was ten years ago. And

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Speaker 4: recognizing that teenager's brains work a little bit different to

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Speaker 4: the way ours do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'm surprised by this because most most of

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Speaker 2: the articles that I've read over the last let's say

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Speaker 2: fifteen years had suggested that school times need to be

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Speaker 2: pushed back later because teenage brains aren't awake enough to

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Speaker 2: get the learning happening. So to see this push seems

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Speaker 2: a little bit counter to what science, psychological science, brain

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Speaker 2: science tells us about the teen brain. However, we've also

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Speaker 2: seen that you can get your kids up nice and

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Speaker 2: early and their brains can kick into gear and they

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Speaker 2: can do their learning in the mornings.

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Speaker 3: That's something that we do in our family anyway.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not so sure how rigid that brain science

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Speaker 2: is and how accurate it is, and how much flexibility

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Speaker 2: there could be around that.

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Speaker 4: I'm obviously not a teenager, but I know as an adult,

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Speaker 4: I actually get so much more done when I get

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Speaker 4: up early, and I use those early hours to just

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Speaker 4: you know, kind of get in and get it all

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Speaker 4: done and then have the afternoon to relax. And so

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Speaker 4: schools that are actually starting earlier obviously finish earlier, which

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Speaker 4: means that from about two o'clock the kids are coming home,

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Speaker 4: they're able to have a break, they can do their homework.

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Speaker 3: Homework, homework, did you just say that homework?

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Speaker 4: Unfortunately, it is a part of our lives, whether we

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Speaker 4: like it or not. And our kids obviously are reading

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Speaker 4: and spelling, even though we don't do all of the

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Speaker 4: worksheets and things. I feel like it just creates more

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Speaker 4: balance for our kids.

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Speaker 2: What about for families where both parents are working, though,

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Speaker 2: I mean, doesn't this make it harder, not easier.

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Speaker 3: A seven o'clock or a seven thirty drop off?

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Speaker 2: And what are you supposed to do with the kids

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Speaker 2: at one o'clock or two o'clock when school's over? How

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Speaker 2: does that work if you don't knock off till five

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Speaker 2: or six? Like, I don't know that there's any easy

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Speaker 2: answer here, but surely this is complicated, right, I mean,

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Speaker 2: is it a good answer?

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Speaker 4: I think you're exactly right, justin there is no easy

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Speaker 4: answer to this.

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Speaker 1: This.

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Speaker 4: In order for this to work and actually be embraced

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Speaker 4: in the community, it would require an entire shift in

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Speaker 4: the way we do life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like structurally, I mean, I'm really in favor

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Speaker 2: of it in a lot of ways. Perhaps it'll encourage

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Speaker 2: more flexibility in workplace hours. Maybe more parents will say, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to work mornings, you work afternoons, do you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like this could fundamentally change, like

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Speaker 2: you said, the way that families do life, in the

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Speaker 2: way even that the workplaces engage with their employees.

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Speaker 3: What are they doing overseas?

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Speaker 4: So this was something that I actually found really intriguing.

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Speaker 4: In Finland, which is often recognized as having one of

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Speaker 4: the most progressive educational models, school usually starts around eight

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Speaker 4: or nine and usually finishes around two pm, but in Brazil,

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Speaker 4: the school days often run from seven to twelve pm,

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Speaker 4: with students typically heading home after school to share lunch

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Speaker 4: with their family. So systemically within their community, it would

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Speaker 4: suggest that families all come together at lunchtime.

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Speaker 3: That's fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Again, you'd have to you have to be working out

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Speaker 2: how work could be juggled around this kind of shift.

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Speaker 2: But it's really really interesting. Have you got any other countries.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to guess that maybe it's stereotypical, but from

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Speaker 2: what I know, I'm going to guess that the Asian

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Speaker 2: countries are doing more hours, not less.

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Speaker 4: Typical school day in China lasts from about seven th

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Speaker 4: eighty till five pm.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Don't they go to school like six days a

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Speaker 2: week as well?

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Speaker 4: It doesn't say that in here. I have heard that,

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Speaker 4: but it also acknowledges that children will often go home

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Speaker 4: for up to two hours during their lunch break.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, that's interesting.

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Speaker 4: So they're actually not at school much longer when you

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Speaker 4: take in a two hour lunch break than our kids are,

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Speaker 4: but they've got that big break in the middle, and

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Speaker 4: in some ways it feels like it just drags the

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Speaker 4: day out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In other ways though, it might be a nice welcome break,

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Speaker 2: although I can imagine going back in the afternoon would

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Speaker 2: be pretty tough. I think our kids might resist that. Hey,

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Speaker 2: we would really love to know what you think about this.

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Speaker 2: Jump onto our Facebook page and let us know. We'll

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Speaker 2: have a social post up about the changes and asking

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Speaker 2: your take on what would work best or whether things

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Speaker 2: should just stay the same.

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Speaker 3: Come and just leave it alone, please.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast, as always, is produced by Justin

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Speaker 2: Rulan from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 2: Tomorrow on the podcast, do other parents worry about how

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Speaker 2: to let go of their eldest? Kelly Ovington sent us

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Speaker 2: an email say, Miotis is going to be sixteen next year.

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Speaker 2: I'm so overprotective. At what point do I let her

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Speaker 2: make mistakes and learn from them. This is one that

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Speaker 2: Kylie and I have got a lot of experience in

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Speaker 2: watching the kids grow up, and we can't wait to

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Speaker 2: share some ideas on this topic. If you'd like more

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Speaker 2: info about making your family happier, we'd love it if

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Speaker 2: you check things out at Happy Families dot com dot au.