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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Famili's podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 1: poor parent who just wants answers Now. My name is

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Speaker 1: doctor Justin Colson. I'm the author of six books about

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Speaker 1: raising children and having happy families and the parent of

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Speaker 1: six of my own children. My wife Kylie and I

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Speaker 1: are the parents of six daughters, and I'm joined as

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Speaker 1: always by Luke and Susie Holt.

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Speaker 2: They're a husband and wife radio team.

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Speaker 1: They have three young boys themselves, and in this conversation

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Speaker 1: I talked to Luke and Suzie about conflict and marriage

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Speaker 1: based on a question that came through from one of

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Speaker 1: our listeners.

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Speaker 3: When it comes to marriage, is it better to say

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Speaker 3: nothing and possibly build resentment but have a peaceful home,

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Speaker 3: or bring up an issue and possibly fight about it

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Speaker 3: or hurt the other's feeling?

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Speaker 1: You know, this reminds me of a story that I

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Speaker 1: love to share about my baby girl, Emily. So when

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Speaker 1: Emily was about eighteen months old. She's about six and

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Speaker 1: a half now, but when she was eighteen months old.

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Speaker 1: You know, as a parent, but certainly as a parent

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Speaker 1: of six children, you don't get a lot of nice, quiet, easy,

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Speaker 1: relaxed Saturday afternoons. Normally weekends, you're running children around everywhere.

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Speaker 1: All there's work to do around the house. There's always

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Speaker 1: something going on. But on this particular Saturday afternoon, I

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Speaker 1: was at home with the youngest three of my children.

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Speaker 1: Kylie was out with the children two and three, and

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Speaker 1: our eldest was at work, so Kylie had taken two kids.

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Speaker 1: I had three at home. Emily, the baby was asleep

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Speaker 1: in her cot. The other two kids were playing in

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Speaker 1: the toy room together happily, and for the first time

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Speaker 1: in I don't know how long, I was laying on

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Speaker 1: my bed, reading a book, having a quiet Saturday afternoon

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Speaker 1: and thinking, oh, my goodness, this is heaven, when I

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Speaker 1: heard coming from the baby's room.

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Speaker 2: Dad, Dad, Dad, Dad. You know when you know when your.

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Speaker 1: Little baby wakes up and they're calling out to you,

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Speaker 1: but they're not really calling you. They're more just sort

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Speaker 1: of giggling and gurgling in their cot, and they're happy.

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Speaker 1: And you know, any parent who's raised a child for

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Speaker 1: longer than a few minutes knows that when your child

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Speaker 1: is happy in their court, you don't go to them.

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Speaker 2: You wait. They're happy, they're giggling and having a nice time.

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Speaker 1: So I just left her there, and I kind of

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Speaker 1: was soaking up the moment of just hearing this happy.

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Speaker 2: Baby playing while I'm reading my book.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, oh, this is beautiful, this is such a

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Speaker 1: great afternoon. But pretty soon her calls and cries became

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Speaker 1: a little more urgent, shall we say, And so I

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Speaker 1: put my book down, walked to her bedroom door, opened it.

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Speaker 1: As I opened it, I remember the smile on her

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Speaker 1: face was like, ah, you're here, like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: most important person in my life kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, here, I am hello, Emily.

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Speaker 1: She smiled at me and then held out her hand

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Speaker 1: with a closed fist and said tar to daddy, Tar

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Speaker 1: to Daddy. And I thought, oh, I wonder what she's got.

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Speaker 1: I mean, my kids don't sleep with sharp, dangerous objects,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes they find stuff. And I thought, I wonder

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Speaker 1: what she's picked up. I need to get it off

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Speaker 1: her straight away. So I put my hand out and said, Emily,

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Speaker 1: tart to daddy, and she placed into my hand a

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Speaker 1: perfectly rounded piece of poop that she had pulled from

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Speaker 1: her nappy.

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Speaker 3: Daring girl.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes. And it was so funny because as she

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Speaker 1: gave it to me, like it was a very special

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Speaker 1: gift this piece of shockingly unwanted output. I remember looking

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Speaker 1: at it and thinking, this is a metaphor for life

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Speaker 1: and a metaphor for relationships, and it's important that I

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Speaker 1: choose wisely how I respond to this. You know, all

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Speaker 1: this happened in a fraction of a second, but I

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Speaker 1: had that realization right then, because in life there are people,

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Speaker 1: even people that we love deeply and dearly, who, from

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Speaker 1: time to time hand is stuff that we don't want to.

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Speaker 2: Have to hold. Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: They just give us shockingly unwanted output. I think was

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Speaker 1: the phrase that I used before they put this stuff

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Speaker 1: in their hands. And and what kind of a parent

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Speaker 1: or a partner do we want to be? Are we

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Speaker 1: going to be the one to use Amy's suggestion who

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Speaker 1: starts throwing this stuff all around the room, even throws

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Speaker 1: it back in their face? Said what are you giving

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Speaker 1: me this for? I need to talk to you about this.

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Speaker 2: You should?

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of option one that Amy suggested

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Speaker 1: that we give as good as we get, And research

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Speaker 1: tells us fairly convincingly that this is not typically going

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Speaker 1: to be a recipe for a healthy, harmonious, happy relationship.

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Speaker 1: But the alternative that Amy has suggested is that we say, oh,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for giving me that pile of mess,

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Speaker 1: and I'll just go and clean that up. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's the thing where we just take it on board

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Speaker 1: and we know we become the martyr. We do anything

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Speaker 1: we can to preserve the relationship because this is how

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Speaker 1: we need to make things work. And you know, that's

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Speaker 1: a terribly unhealthy way to live as well. Not only

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Speaker 1: is there terrible inequality in the relationship that ultimately festers

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Speaker 1: and comes out in awful ways down the track, but

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Speaker 1: it's just no way to live your life. You can't

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Speaker 1: live like that. Pretty soon you start to wonder what

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Speaker 1: it is that you've signed up for and resent everything.

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Speaker 1: So I think that there's a much better way forward. Unsurprisingly,

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Speaker 1: it's neither of those two things. And this is what

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Speaker 1: I did with Emily when she handed me this, this pile

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Speaker 1: of smelly stuff, output yeah, that's it. I looked at

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Speaker 1: her and I said, wow, it looks like you're in

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Speaker 1: a little bit of discomfort and things aren't quite right

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Speaker 1: just now. And I sure, I am glad I got here,

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Speaker 1: and I did.

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Speaker 2: Have you seen what they can do with that stuff?

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Speaker 2: If you leave them alone with it for a while.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, all over the walls.

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Speaker 1: And all over the kind could have been terrible, and

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Speaker 1: so I was grateful that she was handing it to me.

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Speaker 1: I actually expressed appreciation, and then I said, so, what

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Speaker 1: do you think I can do to help? So my

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Speaker 1: idea here is when we're in a conflict ridden marriage,

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Speaker 1: when we're not getting on well with our spouse, what

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Speaker 1: we need to do is find ways to express appreciation

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Speaker 1: for the conflict, which therefore highlights that there is conflict,

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Speaker 1: and say, so what can I do to help? Where

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Speaker 1: do we go from here?

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense? It does?

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Speaker 4: But let me throw the great difficulty that we often

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Speaker 4: have is that when the challenge that they have is

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Speaker 4: all about us, seemingly and therefore, defensiveness comes into play,

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Speaker 4: and your suggested retort back in this conversation gets harder

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Speaker 4: and harder, the more defensive or the more offensive it

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Speaker 4: seems that what they're saying is to us.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to share two other quick stories

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Speaker 1: that I think might be helpful. Both of them are

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Speaker 1: going to make me look good. I promise you that

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Speaker 1: I'm not as good as these stories will make me

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Speaker 1: sound but every now and again I have a moment

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Speaker 1: of brilliance, and they're the first two that pop into

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Speaker 1: my mind. The first is now, just recently, I was

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Speaker 1: having a conversation with Kylie, missus Happy Families, my unparalleled wife,

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Speaker 1: and in that conversation we were talking about some difficulties

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Speaker 1: that we'd had in the past, and she made this

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Speaker 1: comment to me. She said, the one thing about you,

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Speaker 1: justin is that you always make your love for me

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Speaker 1: bigger than your frustration, or bigger than your pride, or

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Speaker 1: bigger than whatever it is that's going on. Your love

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Speaker 1: for me is always bigger than that other stuff. And

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Speaker 1: it really struck me in quite a profound way, as

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Speaker 1: I thought, well, that's exactly what it is, because the

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Speaker 1: relationship matters so much more than the dishes that get

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Speaker 1: left in the sink or the fact that we didn't

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Speaker 1: have dinner two nights in a row. You know, we

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Speaker 1: have a division of responsibility in our home where Kylie

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Speaker 1: actually takes on a commitment to provide the meals so

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Speaker 1: that I can have my capacity to go at nurnal living.

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Speaker 1: And that's just how we've broken things up. Therefore, sexist

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Speaker 1: and saying women should be no I'm not. I'm just

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Speaker 1: saying that in our family, that's what we've agreed works,

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Speaker 1: and we're both happy with that. But you know, if

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of nights where that doesn't happen in

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Speaker 1: a role, I might choose to get a little bit frustrated,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not going to because my relationship with Kylie

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Speaker 1: is worth far more than having to go and buy

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Speaker 1: dinner or have a toasted sandwich. Okay, So that's the

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Speaker 1: first thing I would say, just you make the relationship

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Speaker 1: and your love far bigger than the other thing. And

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Speaker 1: the other thing that I've practiced is when Kylie used

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Speaker 1: to from time to time offer me some suggestions for

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Speaker 1: how I might be a better husband, I would say

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Speaker 1: to her, as the little bit of criticism might have

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Speaker 1: slipped in, I would say, I am so grateful that

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Speaker 1: you've pointed out another one of my deficiencies, another one

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Speaker 1: of my character flaws, another one of my areas in

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Speaker 1: which I fall short as a husband or a father.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for helping me to see ways that I

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Speaker 1: can be better. And I remember the first time I

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Speaker 1: said that to Kylie. She looked at me like I

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Speaker 1: was from another planet, because here I was responding to

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Speaker 1: her criticism with appreciation and gratitude. And she looked at

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Speaker 1: me and she's like, where am I supposed to go

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Speaker 1: with that?

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Speaker 2: How can I be angry at you now that you've

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Speaker 2: just said that? I said, well, I don't really want

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Speaker 2: you to be angry at me.

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Speaker 1: She said, but I am angry at you, and now

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Speaker 1: you've said that, and it took all the hot air

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Speaker 1: out of it. Now, there was one time in particularly

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Speaker 1: where I tried that and she said something along the

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Speaker 1: lines of, oh, don't give me all of that psychology crap,

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Speaker 1: because she.

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Speaker 2: Was really mad at me.

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Speaker 1: And I said, you know what, You're right, I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be giving you that psychology stuff. And I really appreciate

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Speaker 1: you highlighting that sometimes I can utilize what I know

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Speaker 1: in a way that makes you feel like I'm manipulating you.

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Speaker 1: And she said, you're doing it again. But I guess

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Speaker 1: what I'm highlighting is there is a middle way. There

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Speaker 1: is a third way. We don't have to be a martyr.

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Speaker 1: We don't have to roll over and say, oh, gee, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm just a bad person, and we don't have to

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Speaker 1: start fighting back to create a power imbalance or try

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Speaker 1: to reclaim power. What we can do instead is we

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Speaker 1: can simply acknowledge and then say, but I choose you

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Speaker 1: more than I choose the conflict. I choose you more

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Speaker 1: than I choose saving face. I choose you more than

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Speaker 1: what this issue is. And therefore, thank you for helping

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Speaker 1: me to realize ways that I can be a better

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Speaker 1: husband or a better souse. And because of the feedback

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Speaker 1: you've given me, please know that I'm sorry and I

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Speaker 1: will do better. I don't know how else to say it,

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Speaker 1: except that that seems to be something that has not

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Speaker 1: only preserved my marriage and many relationships that I've helped

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Speaker 1: people with over the years, but it actually seems to

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Speaker 1: not just preserve, but actually strengthen and grow and make

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Speaker 1: stronger these relationships.

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Speaker 4: The very, very confronting sort of challenge for us on

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Speaker 4: how we respond to the people who are most important

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Speaker 4: and most worthy of us, approaching them with that piece

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Speaker 4: and that calm response that you're sharing. I would like

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Speaker 4: to highlight though, justin there is a probably a tone

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Speaker 4: fine line to say exactly the same words in response

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Speaker 4: where you can express your appreciation for them pointing out

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Speaker 4: another one of your flaws, but with a slightly wrong tone,

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Speaker 4: it can have.

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Speaker 2: A very different meeting. Thank you for pointing out that

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Speaker 2: I'm an idiot. Yes, I know, I know.

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Speaker 4: Thanks a lot for pointing out another one of my flaws.

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Speaker 4: I really appreciate you want to make me better.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, look, I know that we've got to

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Speaker 1: wrap up because we're pretty much out of time, but

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Speaker 1: let me just highlight it.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: Doctor John Gottman is the author of several books about marriage,

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Speaker 1: and he for many years has been seen as one

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Speaker 1: of the one of the biggest relationships and marriage experts

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Speaker 1: in the world. And he argues that there are what

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Speaker 1: he calls four horsemen of the apocalypse. Your relationship is

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Speaker 1: in danger when these four horsemen appear, and they appear

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Speaker 1: in a certain order most of the time. The first

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Speaker 1: is criticism and then the next is contempt. So criticism is, oh,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe you forgot to do it again. Contempt

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Speaker 1: is you fool. You know, it's that extra level, it's

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Speaker 1: that personal character barb that gets jabbed in there. The

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Speaker 1: third one is defensiveness, and the fourth one is stonewalling,

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Speaker 1: where we just stop communicating. And it's really interesting because

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Speaker 1: the couple of strategies that I've shared, just now cut

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Speaker 1: them off at the outset. So if a partner is

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Speaker 1: going to be critical towards their spouse and that spouse says,

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Speaker 1: thank you, I'm sorry, I'll do better. I appreciate you

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Speaker 1: showing me ways that I can improve myself as a

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Speaker 1: partner to you, what it does is it takes all

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Speaker 1: of the emotion out of it. There's no more contempt,

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Speaker 1: there's no criticism, and we never get to defensiveness or stonewalling.

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Speaker 1: It's just an incredible circuit breaker. And what tends to

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Speaker 1: happen unless you are in a manipulative, abusive relationship, and

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Speaker 1: I would not recommend this in such circumstances. But if

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Speaker 1: you're in a relationship where both of you love each

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Speaker 1: other and you're doing your best to have a healthy,

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Speaker 1: happy marriage, this is what works because it's what gets

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Speaker 1: us to the heart.

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Speaker 2: Of what matters most.

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Speaker 1: We're saying, I love you, I'm open to your influence,

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Speaker 1: I need to be better because our relationship matters, and

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Speaker 1: that's that's really you know, that's the motive behind the

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Speaker 1: words that makes it happen.

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Speaker 2: Is it fair to.

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Speaker 4: Say, justin in that disclaimer about in a violent or

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Speaker 4: abusive relationship, that most of the generic advice and come

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Speaker 4: versations we have doesn't apply to an abusive situation, that

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Speaker 4: it's a whole different set of rules of how.

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Speaker 2: You respond to circumstances.

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Speaker 4: Because if it's an abuser who is criticizing you, to

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Speaker 4: just respond with this gentle meekness. But imagine if someone

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Speaker 4: is inclined to abuse, that only goes to spiral for

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Speaker 4: them to reaffirm it is your fault, and is your

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Speaker 4: fault that they're being aggressive and violent, and that it's

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Speaker 4: a different set of rules, right.

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Speaker 1: I would actually say that if you are in an

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Speaker 1: abusive relationship and somebody starts being aggressive towards you, that

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Speaker 1: making a gentle acknowledgment that you could be better is

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Speaker 1: probably the best way to again break that circuit and

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Speaker 1: not let things escalate. But what I would actually be

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Speaker 1: saying is go and get some help. Talk to somebody,

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Speaker 1: Call one of the various helplines that are available, Speak

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Speaker 1: to your doctor, speak to a person from your church

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Speaker 1: who can help you, speak to somebody in your community,

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Speaker 1: talk to a psychologist, and get that help. I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: want to dive into anything more than a very general

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Speaker 1: statement in a conversation like this, it's just too complicated.

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Speaker 2: Don't do it alone. Definitely don't do it. Get help,

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Speaker 2: and you know what, you'll know.

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Speaker 1: You'll know if you're in that relationship, even based on

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Speaker 1: what we've talked about.

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Speaker 3: Today, Doctor Justin Coilson, Thanks.

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Speaker 2: Thanks guys.

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Speaker 1: If you've enjoyed the podcast or found it helpful, could

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Speaker 1: you do something for me? Go to Apple Podcasts and

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Speaker 1: leave a rating and a review. It's the reviews that

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Speaker 1: help people find the podcast and have happier families. A

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Speaker 1: review came through from Doctor and Mum of three, a

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Speaker 1: five star review. Thank you so much, Doctor and Mum

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Speaker 1: of three. It says succinct, relevant and doable. I'm really

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Speaker 1: glad I found this podcast. It's short enough to listen

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Speaker 1: to on short commutes in the car, is relevant to

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Speaker 1: current day challenges, and the advice is actually helpful and

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Speaker 1: doable within almost every modern family. As a GP, I

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Speaker 1: often recommend this podcast to my patients. Well, Doctor and

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Speaker 1: Mum of three, thank you so much for the recommendations.

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Speaker 1: Thank you again for the five star review and the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to have an influence in your world. It means

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Speaker 1: a tremendous amount For more information on how I can help.

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Speaker 1: Visit Happyfamilies dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: While you're there, check out the brand.

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Speaker 1: New memberships that we're offering for either about twelve dollars

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Speaker 1: or seventeen dollars a month, you can have a parenting

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Speaker 1: expert literally in your pocket. That's me, with a whole

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Speaker 1: range of different ways that I can really elevate the

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Speaker 1: wellbeing of your family and make a difference.

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Speaker 2: Please check out

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Speaker 1: Happy families dot com dot Au for the Happy Families memberships,

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Speaker 1: or go to my Facebook page Doctor Justin Coulson's Happy

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Speaker 1: Families