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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to this special episode of The

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Speaker 2: Daily os. It's Friday, the thirteenth of October. I'm Zara

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Speaker 2: and there's just one day to go before Australia will

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Speaker 2: vote on an Indigenous voice to Parliament. Every day this

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Speaker 2: week we've brought you the Voice Explained. If you're listening

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Speaker 2: to the podcast for the first time this week, I

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Speaker 2: recommend starting with part one, where we go back and

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Speaker 2: look at where the idea for the voice came from.

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Speaker 2: If you're up to speed, I have something special for

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Speaker 2: our final episode. Earlier this week, I was joined at

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Speaker 2: a live event by two two First Nations journalists, Carlie

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Speaker 2: Williams and Isabella Higgins.

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Speaker 3: Hello, go to evening.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so so much to everybody for coming. I

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Speaker 2: think that first and foremost, it is nights like this

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Speaker 2: that really undercut the traditional stereotype that young people don't

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Speaker 2: give a shit, and I think seeing everyone in this

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Speaker 2: room who is eager to learn, eager to inform themselves

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Speaker 2: is just credit to all of you.

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Speaker 3: So thank you for coming.

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Speaker 2: We are joined tonight by two exceptional journalists. Carlie Williams

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Speaker 2: is a Quantumooka woman and a journalist with the ABC's

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Speaker 2: National Indigenous Affairs Team. Prior to this, she was a

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Speaker 2: senior editor at huff Post Australia and she's worked at

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Speaker 2: the Australian Associated Press and Pacific Magazines. Isabella Higgins is

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Speaker 2: a well known journalist who you might have seen from

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Speaker 2: bomb shelters in Ukraine this year because that is where

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Speaker 2: she has spent much of the year. As the National

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Speaker 2: Indigenous Affairs correspondent. She is now earliest first horust rate

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Speaker 2: Islander Europe correspondent working for ABC News. So we are

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Speaker 2: just so glad to have these two exceptional journalists today,

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Speaker 2: so please let them welcome. All right, So tonight we

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Speaker 2: are not telling anybody how to vote. We are just

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Speaker 2: sharing a bit of the information that these two journalists

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Speaker 2: have amassed over their careers and their personal lives. So

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Speaker 2: there are some QR codes that you can scan if

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Speaker 2: you want to ask some questions. We do have quite

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Speaker 2: a few coming through. So what type of people will

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Speaker 2: be in the voice giving advice? What sort of advice

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Speaker 2: will they be giving? Who wants to answer that one over.

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Speaker 4: A million dollar question? That one who's got to be elected?

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Speaker 4: We don't know who exactly. We know that they will

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Speaker 4: if we are believing these design principles, and that's what

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Speaker 4: it looks like. It will be representatives from all the

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Speaker 4: different states and territories, remote and regional people.

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Speaker 3: Too from Torres Strade and then one person to represent

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Speaker 3: Trostred Islander mob on the mainland. This is from that

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Speaker 3: reports the blueprint. This is how it could work. That's

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Speaker 3: all we've got to go on.

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Speaker 4: And the Indigenous. If the Minister did say she would

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Speaker 4: give it a few key priorities, which was housing, education

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Speaker 4: and employment, the remit of it, it's not clear color

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Speaker 4: you had an example.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Tony McAvoy, who's an Indigenous barrister. He uses this

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Speaker 3: example quite a bit and he says, okay, so say

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Speaker 3: the Parliament is looking at superannuation and access to superannuation

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Speaker 3: and potentially lowering the age that people can access their super. Well,

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Speaker 3: if the Voice to Parliament Advisory Body was up, they

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Speaker 3: could say, oh, well, you know, this is something that's

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Speaker 3: been on our mob's minds forever because Indigenous people have

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Speaker 3: a life expected like my life expectancy is eight years

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Speaker 3: lower than a non Indigenous woman. So Tony macvoy says,

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Speaker 3: the Voice could advise Executive Government and the Parliament and say, well,

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Speaker 3: while we're changing this age, or while we're trying to

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Speaker 3: get this bill over line, let's take into accounts that

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Speaker 3: average l entrestrat island to people hardly get to enjoy

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Speaker 3: their super at all because they die before they retire.

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Speaker 3: So why don't we lower that you know, they should

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Speaker 3: be fifty five when or they should be fifty eight.

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Speaker 3: And you know that's just an example, but then there

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Speaker 3: could be you know, other issues that they advise on

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Speaker 3: that don't affect the rest of the population.

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Speaker 4: I think that question though, like if this gets up

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Speaker 4: and we vote yes, these will be the conversations we're

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Speaker 4: having as a nation and they won't be answered immediately,

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Speaker 4: like this will play out of a month's and years

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Speaker 4: as this model is legislated and as it gets up if.

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Speaker 3: It were to be voted.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'll just read out another question, which certainly something

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Speaker 2: the people have asked the Daily Ols a lot, which

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Speaker 2: is that there are MPs, there is a minister who

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Speaker 2: are Indigenous people themselves, and some of the questions that

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Speaker 2: emerge are are those people not providing a voice in parliament?

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Speaker 2: So can you explain why a voice might be different too?

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Speaker 2: For example, a standard member of Parliament being elected while

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Speaker 2: also being Indigenous.

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Speaker 4: One of the biggest differences is moist of our MPs

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Speaker 4: come from a political party that often binds them to

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Speaker 4: a position. They're also there to represent the views of

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Speaker 4: their electorate. It would be quite different to say someone

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Speaker 4: who is independently elected just to speak for their community.

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Speaker 4: They're not bound to any of those party politics principles.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think there's eleven Indigenous MPs and do

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Speaker 4: we think that's representative of all of the states, territories,

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Speaker 4: regions and experiences.

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Speaker 3: And they could be out, you know, by the next parliament.

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Speaker 2: Can you just tell us a bit about what sort

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Speaker 2: of issues we can expect. Is there anything else we

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Speaker 2: know about the remit of what the voice could advise on.

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Speaker 3: I spoke to a few youth workers, First Nations, people

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Speaker 3: who work with kids. And one was a no voter

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Speaker 3: and one was a Yes voter. Cheryl Kickittucket. She's a

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Speaker 3: woman from Wa. She runs basketball programs after school props

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Speaker 3: to keep Aboriginal kids engaged and busy. She's been doing

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Speaker 3: this for a long time. She's got data that shows

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Speaker 3: that it works. But she says, my investment bursts are

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Speaker 3: every six months. Sometimes we'll get twelve months. Sometimes we'll

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Speaker 3: get two years, and it's like whoa party. But every

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Speaker 3: single six months or to twelve months she has to

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Speaker 3: reapply for these grants just to keep the lights on,

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Speaker 3: even though she is doing great things with Indigenous youth.

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Speaker 3: So she says, if we have a voice, it will

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Speaker 3: make my job a lot easier and we can funnel

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Speaker 3: the investments to places where it's working. And that should

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Speaker 3: be good for every Australian taxpayer. Because she is funneling

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Speaker 3: up to her local voice representative who's talking.

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Speaker 4: I think we should play as well. That that is

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Speaker 4: a hypothetical. Some people would like the voice to operate,

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Speaker 4: but these are all hypotheticals at this point.

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Speaker 3: And then Ian Brown from the Gomorra Nation in northwest

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Speaker 3: New South Wales up in Maury. He said, well, it's

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Speaker 3: just advice. Grassroots organizations have been advising governments for decades

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Speaker 3: and do they listen a lot of the time. No,

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Speaker 3: so he is He's like, I think we need localized,

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Speaker 3: state based treaties. First, he didn't want a voice. So

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Speaker 3: that's two people who work with youth with two different arguments.

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Speaker 2: Isabelle, can you just talk us through because when we

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Speaker 2: asked people for their questions ahead of this event, quite

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Speaker 2: a few that came through. We're about treaty and whether

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Speaker 2: it passes or it doesn't pass, what does that mean

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Speaker 2: for a potential treaty.

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Speaker 4: So we're definitely not voting on a treaty and it's

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Speaker 4: not clear how a yes vote would progress to a treaty.

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Speaker 4: Some say if a yes vote got up and you

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Speaker 4: had a voice to Parliament, they would advise a federal

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Speaker 4: government on how to make a treaty. But voting yes

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Speaker 4: doesn't mean that treaty happens. Treaty processes are happening all

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Speaker 4: around the country. There's a number of states that are

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Speaker 4: already working with First Nations people to make a treaty.

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Speaker 4: It's about recognition of who the first peoples were, and

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Speaker 4: then it's about formally agreeing to how you share sovereignty,

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Speaker 4: how you share power, how you share land, which is

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Speaker 4: why it is very important to Aboriginal on tourist Mern

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Speaker 4: Island to people as the first peoples of this land.

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Speaker 2: But there is nothing to say that a yes vote

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Speaker 2: would necessarily propel Australia towards a treaty. You know, every

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Speaker 2: state I believe other than New South Wales is already

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Speaker 2: on track for a treaty.

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Speaker 4: And New South il is having some talks as well.

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Speaker 4: But no, it's not a clear and linear path. If

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Speaker 4: we look at the Uluru Statement from the Heart that

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Speaker 4: came out of that historic convention, they talk about a

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Speaker 4: process of voice, treaty truth, so putting in place of

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Speaker 4: voice to Parliament, then considering what treaties look like, and

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Speaker 4: also pursuing a truth telling process. So it's an ambition

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Speaker 4: of the architects of the Ularu Statement from the Heart.

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Speaker 4: But voting yes doesn't necessarily kickstart something. But the treaty

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Speaker 4: discussion has been around about as long as the constitutional

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Speaker 4: recognition debate has been around. I mean, people might know

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Speaker 4: the iconic song from at.

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Speaker 3: Your parents backyard barbecuea. We've all had the karaoke to

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Speaker 3: that song, but you know it's still a banger. It's

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Speaker 3: a banger.

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Speaker 2: I'm just reading out some more of the questions. It

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Speaker 2: feels strange that as a non First Nations person I

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Speaker 2: have a right to decide on the rights of First

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Speaker 2: Nations people. Is the referendum a fair process for this?

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Speaker 2: And while answering this, I would love one of you

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Speaker 2: to just explain the process of a referendum. What is

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Speaker 2: needed for a referendum to pass? Because three quarters is

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Speaker 2: of this room, if not all of them, have not

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Speaker 2: voted in a referendum.

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Speaker 3: Before six point seven million Australians, anyone under the age

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Speaker 3: of forty two has not voted in a referendum.

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Speaker 2: We've got a lot to learn, and quickly.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 4: There's been forty four referendums in Australia. A constitution was

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Speaker 4: made in nineteen oh one. I don't know if anyone

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Speaker 4: in this room has actually seen the Australian Constitution. It's

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Speaker 4: down in Canberra. You can't put light on a trip,

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Speaker 4: you can't touch it. It's actually like it's fancy here

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Speaker 4: and a bit cooler than you realize. It's actually the.

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Speaker 2: Eighty one if we've all just been thinking about how

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Speaker 2: handswer Yeah.

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Speaker 4: It's got but it has it's got that little date. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: Queen Victoria signed it. So yeah, it was made in

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Speaker 4: nineteen oh one. And it's not easy to physically interact

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Speaker 4: with it, but it's not easy to change it either.

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Speaker 4: So forty four times a government has said to Australia

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Speaker 4: should we do this? Only eight times they were successful.

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Speaker 4: The most successful was in nineteen sixty seven, which was

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Speaker 4: asking Australians to vote on whether Aboriginal and torrost Raat

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Speaker 4: islander people should be included in the official population count.

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Speaker 4: So it's not like this is the first time that

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Speaker 4: every other Australian has got to say on the lives

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Speaker 4: of Aboriginal and torrest Raad islander people. For a referendum

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Speaker 4: to be successful, you need the majority of Australians to

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Speaker 4: vote for it, but you also need the majority of

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Speaker 4: the states, so you need at least four of the

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Speaker 4: six states to have a majority support for it. And

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Speaker 4: that was created as sort of a protection for the

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Speaker 4: smaller states so that it wasn't just the really popular

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Speaker 4: states that controlled and ruled constitutional reforms.

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Speaker 3: But going back to that, Ularu convention in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 3: And this is coming up a lot because you know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of my non Indigenous family and friends say, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, I heard some Indigenous people don't want this.

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Speaker 3: And at that historic twenty seventeen Ularu convention, there was

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Speaker 3: seven people who walked out, and you know, the two

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Speaker 3: hundred and fifty odd back in the room wanted the

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Speaker 3: sequence of reforms to be Voice Treaty Truth, but this

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Speaker 3: small group of people didn't want that. And that was

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Speaker 3: Midia Thorpe. She was there. Friend Hooper, who you might

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Speaker 3: see talking on TV. Fred Hooper wanted truth telling to

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Speaker 3: come first, and for him, that looks like King Charles

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Speaker 3: coming out here and apologizing to First Nations people for

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Speaker 3: you know, colonization.

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Speaker 4: Which is interesting too. I mean, there's figures out there

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Speaker 4: that only one in six Drillians regularly have contact with

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Speaker 4: an Aboriginal or torrest Rad Islander person. And it is

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Speaker 4: really uncomfortable for First Nations people through the course of

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Speaker 4: this debate, to have your identity debated, to have like

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Speaker 4: your friends ask you really uncomfortable questions. I mean, I've

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Speaker 4: got really close family and friends who were racially harassed

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Speaker 4: when they were casting their vote and said to me,

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Speaker 4: this is the first time I've heard some of these

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Speaker 4: racial slurs since I was.

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Speaker 3: In primary school.

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Speaker 4: So it is really uncomfortable. It's a really tough time.

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Speaker 4: I mean, some people might remember from the same sex

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Speaker 4: marriage postal survey. Again, it's having people's identities, their lives,

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Speaker 4: the way they choose to live as fodder for national debate.

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Speaker 3: It's not fun. Yeah, keep in mind there's indigenous, black

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Speaker 3: queer people who have gone through this twice in their

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Speaker 3: lifetime now, so check on those mates.

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Speaker 2: So somebody has asked to give weight to impartiality, what

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Speaker 2: would each of you say is one negative side of

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Speaker 2: voting guests, and I might just re frame that. Can

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Speaker 2: we perhaps go into some of those arguments around the

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Speaker 2: no vote, perhaps a bit more and in more depth,

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Speaker 2: and what you've heard in local communities about why people

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Speaker 2: might be voting no.

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Speaker 3: Reasons I've heard for voting no from some mob is

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Speaker 3: they weren't treaty first, it's not as inclusive as they'd

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Speaker 3: like it to be. Those are worthy, reasonable factual reasons

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Speaker 3: i've heard people mob voting. I don't really want to

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Speaker 3: talk about some of the other reasons I've heard people voting.

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Speaker 2: No, and can you add anything else on that, Isabella

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Speaker 2: on perhaps what some of the people you've been speaking

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Speaker 2: to who might be voting no, where they're coming from,

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Speaker 2: what their views on the matter might be.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think, like the rest of the community,

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Speaker 4: there was a period of education within the Indigenous community.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we just said two hundred and fifty delegates

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Speaker 4: were at that historic convention, and that means a whole

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Speaker 4: lot of us weren't in the room. So it has

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Speaker 4: been an education process for many Aboriginal Hotorist RD Islanders

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Speaker 4: as well. They'm imagining what this might look like. Some

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Speaker 4: people perhaps feel like they don't have enough information or

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Speaker 4: they don't like what they're hearing so far. I mean,

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Speaker 4: sort of the things that Karli said as well. I mean,

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Speaker 4: as I said, average lantost Right Island to people don't

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Speaker 4: live in a vacuum. Their views aren't always so different

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Speaker 4: to that of the general community in how they choose

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Speaker 4: a yes or no. But I would to say the

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Speaker 4: biggest difference I do see is that mistrust of government

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Speaker 4: and authorities I think really influences some Aboriginal people to

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Speaker 4: not trust this process and to not trust this model.

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Speaker 4: There are some aborage lantost Rate Island to people who

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Speaker 4: don't want to be in the Constitution at all. They

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Speaker 4: don't want to be in what they would call the

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Speaker 4: white Men's Document. That's a pretty strong view amongst some

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Speaker 4: parts of the population, and because of their experience, that's

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Speaker 4: how they've come to have those views.

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Speaker 2: No referendum has gotten up without bipartisan support. There is

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Speaker 2: no bipartisan support on this matter. What role do you

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Speaker 2: think that has played during this period having such a

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Speaker 2: divide between the coalition and the government.

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Speaker 4: One of the really interesting things I have observed is

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Speaker 4: that one of the main slogans of the no campaign,

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Speaker 4: if you don't know vote no, was actually used in

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Speaker 4: the nineteen ninety nine referendum as well. So that's obviously

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Speaker 4: quite a potent message for Australians who maybe aren't engaged,

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Speaker 4: or are unsure or think that this country works pretty well.

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Speaker 3: It's a strategy that worked in ninety nine. Should we

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Speaker 3: cut times with the monarchy? And they squabbled over the

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Speaker 3: model again, and yeah, Howard pushed the don't know vote no,

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Speaker 3: and yeah it failed miserably.

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Speaker 4: So I think I ended up a long way from

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Speaker 4: what your question was.

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Speaker 2: Sect are we talking about it just on another referendum?

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Speaker 2: Someone's asked if we do get yes through, how will

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Speaker 2: we know the Voice is working for fascinations people?

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Speaker 3: It will be accountable, Yeah, nol Pierson again he's on

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Speaker 3: the Yes campaign. He says, we will be accountable for

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Speaker 3: our own outcomes this time around. You know, they'll have

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Speaker 3: to report in and if things aren't working. The Parliament

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Speaker 3: has the power to tweak the way the Voice looks

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Speaker 3: and operates. It has the power to do that.

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Speaker 4: It is a tough one because how do you measure

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Speaker 4: empowerment Like that's I don't really know how you do that.

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Speaker 4: So probably success will be measured on whether we see

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Speaker 4: real changes to some of those closing the Gap targets

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Speaker 4: and the reasons why some of those outcomes are really poor.

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Speaker 4: Like one of the main goals of closing the gap

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Speaker 4: is to have all Indigenous babies born in a healthy

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Speaker 4: birth weight so that they are more likely to live

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Speaker 4: a healthier life. There's a lot of factors that influence

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Speaker 4: those things and how empowerment filters down through, like state legislation,

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Speaker 4: state health services, federal health services, aboriginal medical services, to

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Speaker 4: the care that Aboriginal people get that's really hard to measure.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's not. So I think it

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Speaker 4: will be a difficult being to measure, and I think

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Speaker 4: it will be judged on the influence it has on

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Speaker 4: pragmatic outcomes.

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Speaker 2: Last question, what do you want everyone here to walk

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Speaker 2: away knowing? Presumably if you haven't already prepolled, we'll be

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Speaker 2: voting on Saturdays. So what do you want people to

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Speaker 2: walk away knowing.

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Speaker 3: That, Yeah, there are so many diverse views of First

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Speaker 3: Nations people. We know that the only hard data we

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Speaker 3: have is the pole that the government keeps talking about

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Speaker 3: that eighty percent of Aboriginal people want this. Can we

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Speaker 3: still say that? Now those poles were from March that

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Speaker 3: was a long time ago. Oh look, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: you go.

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Speaker 4: I guess my closing thought would just be this didn't

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Speaker 4: come from nowhere. This has been decades in the making,

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Speaker 4: years in the making, months in the making. Don't just

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Speaker 4: look at the campaign as you've seen it over the

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Speaker 4: last six weeks, over the last eighteen months. Remember this

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Speaker 4: came from somewhere a long time ago.

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Speaker 2: Thank you both so much for giving up Latorren tonight.

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Speaker 3: So it's great to see you all here engaged. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: can't believe it, truly.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for being a lovely audience. I was getting

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Speaker 4: lots of reassuring smiles, so all.

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Speaker 2: Of us thanks very much for listening to this special

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Speaker 2: episode and indeed this special.

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Speaker 3: Week of our podcast.

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Speaker 2: The Voice explained, this is a generation defining moment in

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Speaker 2: Australia's history and we hope that we have provided some

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Speaker 2: clarity in a time that has been filled with a

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Speaker 2: lot of opinions and a lot of information. We'll be

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Speaker 2: bringing you all the results from the referendum on Monday

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Speaker 2: morning and from then on we'll be resuming our normal

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Speaker 2: podcast format from there. Just a note as we head

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Speaker 2: into the weekend, it has been a really tough week

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Speaker 2: in the news for a number of reasons, and you

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Speaker 2: cannot notice the effect that it's having on your mental

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Speaker 2: health at the time, but be really conscious about how

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Speaker 2: you're consuming and where you're consuming that information from, and

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Speaker 2: we'll be back again with you on Monday