WEBVTT - My Favourite Tip: Katy Milkman - Copy and paste what your most productive mates do

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<v Speaker 1>We all have that one friend, that friend who somehow

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<v Speaker 1>manages to get to the gym every morning, crush her

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<v Speaker 1>work day, hang out with her family, and read the

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of books you've had on your to read list

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<v Speaker 1>for years, all without breaking a sweat. How do they

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<v Speaker 1>do it? Well, that's exactly the question author, economist and

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<v Speaker 1>Warten professor Katie Milkman wants you to ask, and it

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<v Speaker 1>all comes down to a strategy that Katie calls copy

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<v Speaker 1>and paste. My name is doctor Amantha Immer. I'm an

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<v Speaker 1>organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is how I work a show about how

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<v Speaker 1>to help you do your best work. On today's My

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<v Speaker 1>Favorite Tip episode, we go back to an interview from

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<v Speaker 1>the past and I pick out my favorite tip from

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<v Speaker 1>the interview. In today's show, I speak Katie Milkman and

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<v Speaker 1>we start by talking about her collaboration with best selling

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<v Speaker 1>author of Grit, Angela Duckworth.

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<v Speaker 2>I also use this tool that Angela Duckworth, who's one

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<v Speaker 2>of the most fun people to work with, a best

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<v Speaker 2>selling author of Grit and a frequent collaborator of mine,

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<v Speaker 2>who maybe sort of best personifies this sort of part

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<v Speaker 2>of my life and choosing her as a frequent collaborator

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<v Speaker 2>has been a wonderful experience. But she and I wrote

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<v Speaker 2>about something we call copy and paste, which we have

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<v Speaker 2>both done with each other's lives, which is, there's someone

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<v Speaker 2>who you are spending time with who is pushing towards

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<v Speaker 2>a similar goal, and often we're not very deliberate about

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<v Speaker 2>trying to figure out what are the things that they're

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<v Speaker 2>doing that are working that we could emulate. But when

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<v Speaker 2>we gave people in one research study a little nudge

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<v Speaker 2>to go find someone with a shared goal who was

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<v Speaker 2>actually doing better at achieving it and ask them what

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<v Speaker 2>are they you know, what are some of their strategies,

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<v Speaker 2>and then choose one to people ended up doing a

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<v Speaker 2>lot better than when we just said, you know, go

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<v Speaker 2>make a plan, go try to figure out a way

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<v Speaker 2>to get better, or when we gave them lists of

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<v Speaker 2>hacks that other people had generated. It was better to

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<v Speaker 2>go find someone in your social network, someone who was

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<v Speaker 2>close to you, who you could emulate, than to get

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<v Speaker 2>sort of arbitrarily collected hacks, or to just try to

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<v Speaker 2>make a plan in isolation. Because other people know so

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<v Speaker 2>much that's context relevant for you. Write someone else who's

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<v Speaker 2>in your zip code, in your social network, who's also

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<v Speaker 2>trying to run a marathon or write a book. They

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<v Speaker 2>have a lot of the same pressures constraints, and once

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<v Speaker 2>you start deliberately trying to learn from them, you can

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<v Speaker 2>get a lot farther.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me, what is some things that you've copied

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<v Speaker 1>and pasted from Angela and Hashei Wicks.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, one of my favorites. And it's sort of

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<v Speaker 2>embarrassing that I hadn't figured this out sooner. But Angela

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<v Speaker 2>and I both live in downtown Philadelphia, and we commute

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<v Speaker 2>on foot to the university where we work, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we neither of us even had cars, I think when

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<v Speaker 2>we first started working together, all of our and there's

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<v Speaker 2>lots of time spent walking across campus to meetings. And

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<v Speaker 2>what Angela had figured out in life, which somehow I hadn't,

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<v Speaker 2>is that every one of those commutes, every one of

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<v Speaker 2>those fifteen twenty thirty minute walks, is actually an opportunity

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<v Speaker 2>to take a meeting by phone that would otherwise occupy

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<v Speaker 2>time when you could be writing a manuscript or doing

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<v Speaker 2>something else productive at your desk. So she always combined

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<v Speaker 2>her commutes with those kinds of phone conversations somebody a

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<v Speaker 2>reporter who wanted to ask some questions, a student who

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<v Speaker 2>wanted some advice, and it didn't need to be a

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<v Speaker 2>face to face conversation. So she never wasted those walks.

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<v Speaker 2>Whereas you know, and it's not that it's wasted, right,

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<v Speaker 2>because you might be having thoughts and so on. But

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<v Speaker 2>there was a lot of time in my day that

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<v Speaker 2>involved commuting, since I walked to and from the campus

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<v Speaker 2>and back and forth across it, and some of that

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<v Speaker 2>getting consuming it with the kinds of calls so valuable.

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<v Speaker 2>So I started doing that immediately after I noticed her

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<v Speaker 2>doing it. One day, she had actually taken a call

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<v Speaker 2>on a commute to come meet with me, and she

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<v Speaker 2>was explaining, oh, yeah, I always do this, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, that is so smart. I cannot believe I

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<v Speaker 2>haven't been combining these things. And it opened up a

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<v Speaker 2>huge amount of time on my calendar for doing deeper

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<v Speaker 2>work at my desk.

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<v Speaker 1>What else have you copy advised from Vangula?

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<v Speaker 2>Let's see another example of something that I think I've

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<v Speaker 2>copied and pasted from Angela is that whenever she is

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<v Speaker 2>working on a new project, she actually goes to the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of world expert and tries to just have a conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's a lot of conversation copying. I used to just,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, try to read all the papers and ingest

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<v Speaker 2>all the information and hope that I would be able

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<v Speaker 2>to develop the expertise. I still do that, but she's

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<v Speaker 2>so wise to reach out because the person who's the

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<v Speaker 2>expert on this, you know, it's flattering to hear from

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<v Speaker 2>someone else that they want to learn from you and

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<v Speaker 2>make sure they're getting a science write and share a

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<v Speaker 2>hypothesis and pick your brain for fifteen minutes and they

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<v Speaker 2>can combine it with a walk across campus, so they're

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<v Speaker 2>normally delighted to say yes. And you can get such

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<v Speaker 2>deep insight from someone who's truly the expert on a

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<v Speaker 2>topic when you're a newbie. That's better than what you'd

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<v Speaker 2>get if you just tried to read everything they've written,

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<v Speaker 2>because there's some subtlety that they'll pick up on and

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<v Speaker 2>whatever it is you're up to. So she really taught

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<v Speaker 2>me to pick up the phone or make that ask

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<v Speaker 2>to have more conversations with people who have the expertise

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<v Speaker 2>that's necessary than I was before. So I do that

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<v Speaker 2>a lot more now in my work now.

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<v Speaker 1>I loved the forward that Angela wrote in How to Change,

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<v Speaker 1>and I must say I was excited to read How

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<v Speaker 1>to Change before I got the book, because I felt

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<v Speaker 1>like it I'd heard quite a few people talk about it.

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<v Speaker 1>But then I read the forward that she wrote, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm even more excited to

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<v Speaker 1>read the book now. And one of the things she

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<v Speaker 1>wrote about you is she said that you'll really good

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<v Speaker 1>at quickly learning how to do things more efficiently, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'd love to know some examples of things that you've

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<v Speaker 1>made more efficient and how you did it well.

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<v Speaker 2>One thing both Angela and I love is efficiency, so

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<v Speaker 2>there there's no surprise maybe that you know, we both

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<v Speaker 2>copied and pasted things that the other was doing more

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<v Speaker 2>efficiently than we were, and I think we've gotten more

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<v Speaker 2>efficient in the process. One thing that I think has

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<v Speaker 2>served me really well is an obsession with templates, like

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<v Speaker 2>never write the same email twice if you're going to

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<v Speaker 2>say the same thing, for instance, So I have a

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<v Speaker 2>huge document filled with template responses, which isn't to say

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<v Speaker 2>that they wouldn't be personalized, but to the kinds of

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<v Speaker 2>emails I get a lot right, a student looking for

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<v Speaker 2>advice on companies where they could work if they're interested

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<v Speaker 2>in behavioral science. Oh, I have a template for that

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<v Speaker 2>student wanting research assistant options. Someone reaching out and interested in,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, whether or not I'm taking PhD students next year.

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<v Speaker 2>Someone would like to be a guest on my podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Someone who's enthusiastic about the book and looking for more

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<v Speaker 2>places to find advice. So there are all sorts of

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<v Speaker 2>emails that as a professor you get at a high frequency,

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<v Speaker 2>and once you start to recognize what those are and

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<v Speaker 2>see patterns, you can instead of creating something new from scratch,

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<v Speaker 2>you can start from a template. I sort of think

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<v Speaker 2>of a lot of what we do in life as

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<v Speaker 2>filling in mad libs, and I think once you see

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<v Speaker 2>things that way, you can do less busy work and

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<v Speaker 2>more deep thoughtful work because you can simplify a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of these processes. Recommendation letters are a little bit like that.

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<v Speaker 2>For me, I have a template for writing a student

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<v Speaker 2>recommendation letter. Of course, lots of tailoring is required, but

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<v Speaker 2>there's sort of a structure that can be reused time

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<v Speaker 2>and again, and that simplifies so much in life that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, really doesn't require deep thought and all the

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<v Speaker 2>time that it would take if you recreated the will

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<v Speaker 2>from scratch.

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<v Speaker 1>So I hope you are now thinking about who in

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<v Speaker 1>your life could you copy and paste from? And if

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<v Speaker 1>you want to hear more tips from Katie, you can

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<v Speaker 1>listen to the full interview, which there is a link

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<v Speaker 1>to in the show notes. If you're looking for more

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<v Speaker 1>tips to improve the way that you work, I write

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<v Speaker 1>a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that

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<v Speaker 1>I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from software

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<v Speaker 1>and gadgets that I'm loving through the interesting research findings.

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<v Speaker 1>You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot co.

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<v Speaker 1>That's how I Work dot co. How I Work is

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<v Speaker 1>produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios,

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<v Speaker 1>and thank you to Matt Nimber who does the audio

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<v Speaker 1>mix for every episode and makes everything sound so much

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<v Speaker 1>better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.