1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: We all have that one friend, that friend who somehow 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: manages to get to the gym every morning, crush her 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: work day, hang out with her family, and read the 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: kinds of books you've had on your to read list 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: for years, all without breaking a sweat. How do they 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: do it? Well, that's exactly the question author, economist and 7 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: Warten professor Katie Milkman wants you to ask, and it 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: all comes down to a strategy that Katie calls copy 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: and paste. My name is doctor Amantha Immer. I'm an 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: and this is how I work a show about how 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. On today's My 13 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: Favorite Tip episode, we go back to an interview from 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: the past and I pick out my favorite tip from 15 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: the interview. In today's show, I speak Katie Milkman and 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: we start by talking about her collaboration with best selling 17 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: author of Grit, Angela Duckworth. 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: I also use this tool that Angela Duckworth, who's one 19 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: of the most fun people to work with, a best 20 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,639 Speaker 2: selling author of Grit and a frequent collaborator of mine, 21 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 2: who maybe sort of best personifies this sort of part 22 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 2: of my life and choosing her as a frequent collaborator 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 2: has been a wonderful experience. But she and I wrote 24 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: about something we call copy and paste, which we have 25 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 2: both done with each other's lives, which is, there's someone 26 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 2: who you are spending time with who is pushing towards 27 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 2: a similar goal, and often we're not very deliberate about 28 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 2: trying to figure out what are the things that they're 29 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: doing that are working that we could emulate. But when 30 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: we gave people in one research study a little nudge 31 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: to go find someone with a shared goal who was 32 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: actually doing better at achieving it and ask them what 33 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 2: are they you know, what are some of their strategies, 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 2: and then choose one to people ended up doing a 35 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: lot better than when we just said, you know, go 36 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: make a plan, go try to figure out a way 37 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: to get better, or when we gave them lists of 38 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: hacks that other people had generated. It was better to 39 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,679 Speaker 2: go find someone in your social network, someone who was 40 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: close to you, who you could emulate, than to get 41 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 2: sort of arbitrarily collected hacks, or to just try to 42 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: make a plan in isolation. Because other people know so 43 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 2: much that's context relevant for you. Write someone else who's 44 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 2: in your zip code, in your social network, who's also 45 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,679 Speaker 2: trying to run a marathon or write a book. They 46 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: have a lot of the same pressures constraints, and once 47 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 2: you start deliberately trying to learn from them, you can 48 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: get a lot farther. 49 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 1: So tell me, what is some things that you've copied 50 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: and pasted from Angela and Hashei Wicks. 51 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, one of my favorites. And it's sort of 52 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: embarrassing that I hadn't figured this out sooner. But Angela 53 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: and I both live in downtown Philadelphia, and we commute 54 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: on foot to the university where we work, and you know, 55 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 2: we neither of us even had cars, I think when 56 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: we first started working together, all of our and there's 57 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: lots of time spent walking across campus to meetings. And 58 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: what Angela had figured out in life, which somehow I hadn't, 59 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: is that every one of those commutes, every one of 60 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: those fifteen twenty thirty minute walks, is actually an opportunity 61 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: to take a meeting by phone that would otherwise occupy 62 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: time when you could be writing a manuscript or doing 63 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: something else productive at your desk. So she always combined 64 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: her commutes with those kinds of phone conversations somebody a 65 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: reporter who wanted to ask some questions, a student who 66 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: wanted some advice, and it didn't need to be a 67 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: face to face conversation. So she never wasted those walks. 68 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: Whereas you know, and it's not that it's wasted, right, 69 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: because you might be having thoughts and so on. But 70 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: there was a lot of time in my day that 71 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: involved commuting, since I walked to and from the campus 72 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: and back and forth across it, and some of that 73 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 2: getting consuming it with the kinds of calls so valuable. 74 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: So I started doing that immediately after I noticed her 75 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 2: doing it. One day, she had actually taken a call 76 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: on a commute to come meet with me, and she 77 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: was explaining, oh, yeah, I always do this, and I 78 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 2: was like, that is so smart. I cannot believe I 79 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 2: haven't been combining these things. And it opened up a 80 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 2: huge amount of time on my calendar for doing deeper 81 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 2: work at my desk. 82 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: What else have you copy advised from Vangula? 83 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: Let's see another example of something that I think I've 84 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: copied and pasted from Angela is that whenever she is 85 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 2: working on a new project, she actually goes to the 86 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 2: sort of world expert and tries to just have a conversation. 87 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of conversation copying. I used to just, 88 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: you know, try to read all the papers and ingest 89 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 2: all the information and hope that I would be able 90 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: to develop the expertise. I still do that, but she's 91 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: so wise to reach out because the person who's the 92 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 2: expert on this, you know, it's flattering to hear from 93 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: someone else that they want to learn from you and 94 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 2: make sure they're getting a science write and share a 95 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 2: hypothesis and pick your brain for fifteen minutes and they 96 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: can combine it with a walk across campus, so they're 97 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 2: normally delighted to say yes. And you can get such 98 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 2: deep insight from someone who's truly the expert on a 99 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: topic when you're a newbie. That's better than what you'd 100 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: get if you just tried to read everything they've written, 101 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: because there's some subtlety that they'll pick up on and 102 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: whatever it is you're up to. So she really taught 103 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: me to pick up the phone or make that ask 104 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: to have more conversations with people who have the expertise 105 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 2: that's necessary than I was before. So I do that 106 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: a lot more now in my work now. 107 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: I loved the forward that Angela wrote in How to Change, 108 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: and I must say I was excited to read How 109 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,119 Speaker 1: to Change before I got the book, because I felt 110 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: like it I'd heard quite a few people talk about it. 111 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: But then I read the forward that she wrote, and 112 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm even more excited to 113 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: read the book now. And one of the things she 114 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: wrote about you is she said that you'll really good 115 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: at quickly learning how to do things more efficiently, and 116 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: I'd love to know some examples of things that you've 117 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: made more efficient and how you did it well. 118 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 2: One thing both Angela and I love is efficiency, so 119 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 2: there there's no surprise maybe that you know, we both 120 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 2: copied and pasted things that the other was doing more 121 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: efficiently than we were, and I think we've gotten more 122 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: efficient in the process. One thing that I think has 123 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 2: served me really well is an obsession with templates, like 124 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: never write the same email twice if you're going to 125 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: say the same thing, for instance, So I have a 126 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: huge document filled with template responses, which isn't to say 127 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: that they wouldn't be personalized, but to the kinds of 128 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: emails I get a lot right, a student looking for 129 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 2: advice on companies where they could work if they're interested 130 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 2: in behavioral science. Oh, I have a template for that 131 00:06:53,560 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: student wanting research assistant options. Someone reaching out and interested in, 132 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 2: you know, whether or not I'm taking PhD students next year. 133 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: Someone would like to be a guest on my podcast. 134 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 2: Someone who's enthusiastic about the book and looking for more 135 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: places to find advice. So there are all sorts of 136 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: emails that as a professor you get at a high frequency, 137 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: and once you start to recognize what those are and 138 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 2: see patterns, you can instead of creating something new from scratch, 139 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: you can start from a template. I sort of think 140 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: of a lot of what we do in life as 141 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: filling in mad libs, and I think once you see 142 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: things that way, you can do less busy work and 143 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: more deep thoughtful work because you can simplify a lot 144 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: of these processes. Recommendation letters are a little bit like that. 145 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: For me, I have a template for writing a student 146 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: recommendation letter. Of course, lots of tailoring is required, but 147 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: there's sort of a structure that can be reused time 148 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: and again, and that simplifies so much in life that, 149 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 2: you know, really doesn't require deep thought and all the 150 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 2: time that it would take if you recreated the will 151 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 2: from scratch. 152 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: So I hope you are now thinking about who in 153 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: your life could you copy and paste from? And if 154 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: you want to hear more tips from Katie, you can 155 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: listen to the full interview, which there is a link 156 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: to in the show notes. If you're looking for more 157 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,679 Speaker 1: tips to improve the way that you work, I write 158 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that 159 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from software 160 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: and gadgets that I'm loving through the interesting research findings. 161 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot co. 162 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: That's how I Work dot co. How I Work is 163 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios, 164 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: and thank you to Matt Nimber who does the audio 165 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: mix for every episode and makes everything sound so much 166 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.