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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, I like to say hashtag sooner is safer because

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Speaker 2: you cannot predict when that child is going to be

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Speaker 2: exposed to pornography.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson, the author of six

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Speaker 3: books about raising happy families and the founder of happy

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Speaker 3: families dot com. Do you today a very special guest.

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Speaker 3: I'm really excited to be able to talk about something

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Speaker 3: that matters a great deal. In the next couple of weeks,

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Speaker 3: We've got a summit called Bringing Up Boys coming up,

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Speaker 3: and the topic we're going to discuss just now with

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Speaker 3: Kristen Jensen from Defend Young Minds is a subject that

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Speaker 3: affects well over ninety percent of our young men. Research

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Speaker 3: suggests that it could be as much by the age

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Speaker 3: of fifteen as ninety nine percent of them are involved

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Speaker 3: with viewing, whether intentionally or otherwise, explicit content online pornography.

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Speaker 3: And that's something that Kristin has got a lot to

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Speaker 3: talk to us about right now. Kristen's the founder of

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Speaker 3: Defend Young Minds and the best selling author of Good Pictures,

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Speaker 3: Bad Pictures, pawn Proofing Today's young Kids, and also Good Pictures,

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Speaker 3: Bad Pictures Junior, a Simple Plan to Protect young minds.

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Speaker 3: Kristin is also a mum of three, grandma to two,

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Speaker 3: and lives in the United States in Washington State. Or

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Speaker 3: is that pronounced Washington? How do you say that, Kristen,

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Speaker 3: because I've heard both Washington. You're a Washington You're a

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Speaker 3: Washington person. Okay, every now and again I'm meet somebody

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Speaker 3: who's from Washington, and I always always smile when I

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Speaker 3: hear that. It doesn't read like there's an R there. So, Kristen,

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Speaker 3: We've got a lot to talk about. Thank you so

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Speaker 3: much for joining me on the podcast. My first question

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Speaker 3: is a confronting reality. I regularly hear from parents of

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Speaker 3: kids as young as seven or eight, sometimes even younger,

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Speaker 3: although you it's around seven or eight, who have found

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Speaker 3: that the kids that is, have found or they've been

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Speaker 3: shown explicit content pornographic content online. I don't use the

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Speaker 3: term adult content. I know a lot of people are like, oh,

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Speaker 3: it's adult content. I don't think that it's appropriate to

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Speaker 3: suggest that it's universally something that adults are seeking access

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Speaker 3: to So I prefer to call it explicit content or pornography.

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Speaker 3: So these kids have been on the school bus and

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Speaker 3: somebody's shown them this explicit content, or they've been told

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Speaker 3: to look something up online, or they've had a big

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Speaker 3: kid to a sleepover expose them to harmful content. What

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Speaker 3: do you think is the basic message about this that

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Speaker 3: every parent needs to understand and act on.

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Speaker 2: Well, a couple of things. First of all, I say

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Speaker 2: that every school bus in America and other places is

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Speaker 2: a you know, triple X rated movie theater.

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Speaker 3: Really, so that makes me shut out. I hear you

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Speaker 3: say that, and I know it's true, but I just think, no,

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Speaker 3: this is why I want my kids to catch the

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Speaker 3: school bus. And I know so many parents feel that way.

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Speaker 2: Well, they're going to see it sometime. It's a matter

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Speaker 2: of being right. So they need to be prepared because

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Speaker 2: none of us do very well when we're caught off guard.

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Speaker 2: When children are prepared and understand what to do when

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Speaker 2: they see pornography, then they have a real choice. They

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Speaker 2: have a better choice to turn away. And when you

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Speaker 2: educate them, then you have then they really have a

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Speaker 2: chance to make a good decision. You know about bad pictures,

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Speaker 2: So I would say parents. The message is parents need

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Speaker 2: to prepare their children early because they will see it

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Speaker 2: at some point. The second message is that kids, good kids,

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Speaker 2: get pulled into porn. I mean, it's not that they're

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Speaker 2: bad kids, and it has nothing to do with the

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Speaker 2: fact that you're a wonderful parent either. It's out there,

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Speaker 2: and so they need to learn defensive strategies against it.

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Speaker 2: They need to learn to protect themselves because we can't

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Speaker 2: completely protect them from it. We can do everything we

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Speaker 2: can filters and conversation everything. We should try all of

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Speaker 2: that and do all of that because we have a

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Speaker 2: duty of care actually to do all that. But we

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Speaker 2: need to prepare them to defend themselves. So that's really

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Speaker 2: the point of my books and the curriculum that we've

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Speaker 2: developed is to help children learn what to do when

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Speaker 2: they see pornography. And there's a lot of success stories

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Speaker 2: in here all the time. One of my favorites is

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Speaker 2: a mom read her nine year old son good pictures,

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Speaker 2: bad pictures, and he went to school and three days

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Speaker 2: later on the playground right he was shown pornography by

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Speaker 2: another student with a smartphone, and he looked, he saw,

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Speaker 2: he recognized it. He went home. He told his mom

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Speaker 2: and he said, I was scared, but I knew what

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Speaker 2: to do. And you can just feel the burden coming

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Speaker 2: off of his shoulders. I was scared, but I knew

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Speaker 2: what to do. Sometimes porn is scary at the same

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Speaker 2: time that it's very intriguing to these kids. So we

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Speaker 2: also need to teach them that, you know, it's they're

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Speaker 2: not about kid. If they are interested, it's just that

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Speaker 2: it's bad for them, and so it's important for them

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Speaker 2: to teach them early.

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Speaker 3: So when do you encourage parents to start talking about

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Speaker 3: bad pictures? Because you're saying start early and obviously have

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Speaker 3: the conversation often. How early? How often?

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Speaker 2: So I would say it's not an exact age, it's

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Speaker 2: whenever your child has any access to the internet, because

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Speaker 2: once they're on the internet, there are no iron gates.

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Speaker 2: It's difficult once they're out there, and kids, especially as

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Speaker 2: they get a little older, they learn ways to get

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Speaker 2: around what we think might be barriers. And we also

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Speaker 2: think that they wouldn't be interested until they get to

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Speaker 2: be of an age where they're going through puberty. But

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Speaker 2: that's not true. Young kids can be very interested in

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Speaker 2: this material unfortunately, So I would say, when I first started,

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Speaker 2: I was writing the book for seven year olds seven

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Speaker 2: to eleven, and I thought I got people saying seven,

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Speaker 2: that's way too early. But then I had parents come

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Speaker 2: up to me and say, hey, do you have a

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Speaker 2: book for preschoolers? And I just remember the first time

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Speaker 2: a mom came up to me and asked me that,

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Speaker 2: I felt like someone had, you know, punched me in

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Speaker 2: the gut because what three year olds? But then I

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Speaker 2: look around, you know, every three year old seems like

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Speaker 2: they're on some kind of a tablet or a device.

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Speaker 2: And so I wrote Good Pictures Bad Pictures Junior because

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Speaker 2: I had so many parents that they saw the need

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Speaker 2: and they asked me to write it. So these are

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Speaker 2: things that you need to start early. The earlier you started,

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Speaker 2: the more comfortable it's going to be. I like to

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Speaker 2: say hashtag sooner is safer because you cannot predict when

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Speaker 2: that child is going to be exposed to pornography. You

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Speaker 2: just can't. Most parents are surprised. In fact, there's a

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Speaker 2: huge naivete gap. They've done studies on this recently, one

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Speaker 2: done in the UK that showed that when they ask parents,

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Speaker 2: you know, how many of you think that your kid

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Speaker 2: is seemed born. Twenty five percent of them said yes.

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Speaker 2: Then they asked their own kids and it was fifty

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Speaker 2: three percent. That's a huge gap, more than double had

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Speaker 2: actually seen porn. And when it came to girls, it

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Speaker 2: was the gap was even bigger because parents don't think

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Speaker 2: that their daughters are going to be interested or have

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Speaker 2: a problem with it, but they do. And so we

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Speaker 2: need to protect our daughters as well as our sons

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Speaker 2: by having these conversations and teaching them from a young age.

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Speaker 2: So I would say start by three, or anytime they

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Speaker 2: have access to any kind of device, whether it's in

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Speaker 2: your home or in someone else's home, talk.

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Speaker 3: Us through a conversation. If you've got to bring this

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Speaker 3: up with the kids, what do you start, How does

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Speaker 3: this happen? And would you suggest that it should change

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Speaker 3: as your child gets older?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? Absolutely everything changes as they get older. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: so start out with just the basics and my Good

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Speaker 2: Pictures Bad Pictures Junior book. It's very simple, very gentle,

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Speaker 2: and it just teaches children to one recognize what a

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Speaker 2: bad picture is, to understand that it's harmful, and three

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Speaker 2: know what to do, have a plan so they know

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Speaker 2: what to do when they see it, so a definition,

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Speaker 2: a warning, and a plan, and the definition just needs

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Speaker 2: to be something very simple. The one we use when

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Speaker 2: I use in the book is something like, you know,

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Speaker 2: pornography or bad pictures are pictures of people with little

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Speaker 2: or no clothing on that focus on the private parts

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Speaker 2: of the body that we keep covered with swimsuit. Now

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Speaker 2: that some people say, oh, that's too simple, that's just nudity.

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Speaker 2: You know, we don't want to be body negative, we

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Speaker 2: want to be body positive all that stuff. Look, I

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Speaker 2: get it, I'm body positive, I'm sex positive. But you know,

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Speaker 2: you really need to keep in mind that you're talking

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Speaker 2: with a child and you have to keep it very simple.

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Speaker 2: So start out with a simple definition, and then talk

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Speaker 2: about the you know why it's harmful, and we have

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Speaker 2: a lot of that information in the books. And then

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Speaker 2: third give them a plan. So with the Gender Book,

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Speaker 2: it's turn run and tell, and we give you know,

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Speaker 2: kids like little actions of what they can do to

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Speaker 2: practice this. And then with the older kids, it's the

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Speaker 2: can do plan and it really gives those kids the

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Speaker 2: five steps they need to go through to not only

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Speaker 2: deal with pornography in the moment that they see it,

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Speaker 2: but also what happens when those memories keep popping back

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Speaker 2: up in your mind. The brain is wired and designed

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Speaker 2: to remember shocking things. So I remembers members the porn. Well,

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Speaker 2: how do you minimize that so it doesn't bother the child?

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Speaker 2: And so the child isn't tempted to go and look.

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Speaker 2: So those things are all explained, and it's important to

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Speaker 2: have a plan in place. So again a definition, a warning,

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Speaker 2: and a plan, and you ask also how should those

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Speaker 2: conversations change over time.

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Speaker 3: I'm speaking with Kristin Jensen. She's the author of Good Pictures,

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Speaker 3: Bad Pictures and also the CEO of Defend Young Minds.

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Speaker 3: Right after the break, we're going to find out why

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Speaker 3: some parents are so dismissive of pornography or explicit content

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Speaker 3: and how we can help them, and also look at

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Speaker 3: some of the research go a bit deeper into how

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Speaker 3: porn can harm kids.

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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 4: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 4: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts

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Speaker 4: of Disciplined is a webinar to help parents say limits

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Speaker 4: with love, compassion and humanity. To find it now at

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Speaker 4: happyfamilies dot com dot au slash Shop.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers Now. Kristin Jensen, the

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Speaker 3: author of Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, joins me for a

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Speaker 3: conversation about pornography christ And a few years ago I

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Speaker 3: attended a conference called porn Harm's Kids. It seems that

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Speaker 3: in the research arena there are some people who will

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Speaker 3: argue that pornography is not universally and always harmful for adults.

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Speaker 3: It's a fairly touchy subject, and there are some invested

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Speaker 3: interests involved in that research. But one thing that I

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Speaker 3: seem to be seeing across the entire research arena is

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Speaker 3: pretty well universal agreement that pornography does harm children. Can

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Speaker 3: you tell me a little bit more about why this

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Speaker 3: is the case?

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Speaker 2: How it does? Sure, well, pornography sexualizes children at a young,

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Speaker 2: very young age, so it's premature. They're not ready to

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Speaker 2: be sexualized. They're not ready to make these decisions or

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Speaker 2: understand these things. We see pornography leaking into an influencing

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Speaker 2: pop culture. So kids want to look sexy when they're

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Speaker 2: seven years old, I mean, so we see that that's

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Speaker 2: a harm. It disrupts the normal childhood development. Again, children

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Speaker 2: we are not designed to be sexual until they're much older,

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Speaker 2: until their thinking brain has developed a little bit more

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Speaker 2: and they can make better decisions, and it warps their

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Speaker 2: attitudes about sex. So where I would say most parents

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Speaker 2: want their children to believe that sex is a positive,

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Speaker 2: loving thing that bonds people together, people that love each other,

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Speaker 2: respect each other, trust each other. You know, pornography teaches

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Speaker 2: the exact opposite. It's self centered, often violent pornography really

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Speaker 2: gives them a toxic script about sex that really impacts

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Speaker 2: their ability to have an intimate sexual relationship when they're

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Speaker 2: older and when they're mature and when they're ready to

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Speaker 2: do that. And I have talked with so many people

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Speaker 2: who have been pulled into porn and they really struggle

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Speaker 2: with that. We know through research that porn changes sexual behavior,

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Speaker 2: and it increases sexual violence and users a lot of

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Speaker 2: you know, good studies coming out of Australia with that

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Speaker 2: as well. And then porn use fuels child on child

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Speaker 2: harmful sexual behavior. So it's hard when a child gets

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Speaker 2: involved in pornography, but when that pornography leads them to

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Speaker 2: do harmful things on other children, you've got a whole

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Speaker 2: another big problem.

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Speaker 3: I recently got a podcast where an it year old

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Speaker 3: described his exposure and interest in pornography that began when

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Speaker 3: he was very young, way too young. His parents had

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Speaker 3: done all of the stuff that you've talked about today.

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Speaker 3: While they didn't necessarily have your book, They'd had regular conversations,

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Speaker 3: they'd walked through the harms and the risks. They'd given

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Speaker 3: him plans, and they had the internet filters, all the

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Speaker 3: right stuff. They did it all, but he still got

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Speaker 3: caught up in it to the point where he was

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Speaker 3: exploring explicit content up to seven to ten times per day.

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Speaker 3: He disclosed on the podcast. It feels like there's a

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Speaker 3: lot at stake. This is going to I'm going to

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Speaker 3: say this, I believe it's going to affect all of

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Speaker 3: his relationships throughout the rest of his life, particularly his

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Speaker 3: intimate ones, as he moves forward. What advice do you

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Speaker 3: have for a parent who has discovered that their child

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Speaker 3: is using pornography, particularly if they're using it intentionally and regularly,

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Speaker 3: and they don't seem to be able to find a

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Speaker 3: way through it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, as you mention, as you said, I mean,

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Speaker 2: the pull born is very strong, and for some people

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Speaker 2: it's very very strong, and so parents can do everything

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Speaker 2: possible and the child still has their agency, their ability

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Speaker 2: to choose right. And as a parent myself, I know

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Speaker 2: there are things that I taught my kids and they

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Speaker 2: don't necessarily. They're struggling with some of those things still,

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Speaker 2: So it happens. I would say that some kids learn

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Speaker 2: by instruction, some kids learn by example, but some kids

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Speaker 2: have to learn by their own sad experience. And so

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Speaker 2: you are going to get these kids that you do

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Speaker 2: all the right things and they still get pulled into it.

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Speaker 2: First of all, we have a guide on defend Young Minds,

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Speaker 2: which is my kids out Porn, now what? So it

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Speaker 2: helps parents if there's a smart plan. It helps parents respond,

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Speaker 2: you know, and be prepared to respond to that so

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Speaker 2: that they respond in a helpful way. But I think

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Speaker 2: you have to accept that your child needs to want

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Speaker 2: to quit porn and it has to be for themselves

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Speaker 2: and not just to please you as a parent. But

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Speaker 2: in the end, you have to realize that love is

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Speaker 2: still the foundation of helping your child. Your relationship is

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Speaker 2: ultimately more important in the long term, and it will

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Speaker 2: help you help them because at some point, if you

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Speaker 2: have a good and a strong and a loving relationship

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Speaker 2: despite the fact that they're not behaving the way you

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Speaker 2: want them to behave you will have that influence, you

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Speaker 2: will have that ability to help and don't make porn

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Speaker 2: the wedge that comes between you and your child. That's

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Speaker 2: just the best advice I can get.

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Speaker 3: Such a valuable and important conversation. Kristin Jensen from Defend

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Speaker 3: Young Minds. If people want more info, where should they go?

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Speaker 3: What can they find?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, they can find us on Instagram, they can

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Speaker 2: find us on Facebook, and they can go to our

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Speaker 2: website Defend Youngminds dot com. We have a free guide

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Speaker 2: that they can download instantly and it's how to talk

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Speaker 2: to Kids about pornography, a quick start guide that gets

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Speaker 2: you up and running about this topic and some statistics,

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Speaker 2: and then we have other guides that are very helpful

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Speaker 2: as well. So check us out at Defend Youngminds dot

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Speaker 2: com and also check out our Brain Defense. We have

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Speaker 2: a new curriculum for kids ages eight to twelve and

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Speaker 2: it's video based. It's really fun and actually entertaining, and

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Speaker 2: so it's brain defense Digital safety. So check that out

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Speaker 2: as well on our website.

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Speaker 3: Every month on the first Sunday of the month, my

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Speaker 3: family sits down and we have a conversation about topics

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Speaker 3: like pornography or intimacy or these big heavy topics. We

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Speaker 3: make it a point, we make it a date. It's

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Speaker 3: an every first Sunday of the month thing. And this

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Speaker 3: is a book that we are going to be discussing

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Speaker 3: in our next First Sunday discussion. I can't wait to

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Speaker 3: read it to my kids. So grateful for the conversation.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Kristin, thank you so much. And to all of

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Speaker 2: your listeners, make sure they know that they can get

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Speaker 2: good pictures bad pictures on Amazon in Australia.

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Speaker 3: Perfect. Thank you so much to Kristen Jensen from Defend

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Speaker 3: Young Minds. The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin

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Speaker 3: Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer

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Speaker 3: and for all the info you need, you can check

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Speaker 3: out the show notes for the links, or visit Happy

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Speaker 3: Families dot com dot au

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Speaker 2: Eight