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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Family's podcast with doctor Justin Coilson.

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Speaker 1: We're Luck and Susie, our husband and wife radio team

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Speaker 1: with three young boys.

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Speaker 2: This is the podcast for the time poor parent who

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Speaker 2: just wants some answers.

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Speaker 3: Now, if you have teenagers, He's preempted this conversation with

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Speaker 3: You're not going to like what I have to say,

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Speaker 3: so I'm going to be fascinated. Fascinated. But the concept

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Speaker 3: is we can talk about kids and these little little

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Speaker 3: boys and girls and we're nurturing them and we're growing

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Speaker 3: them into capable young people able to make decisions on

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Speaker 3: their own, and then they develop that thing that none

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Speaker 3: of us want them to really develop. Deep down, we

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Speaker 3: don't want them to have it, and it's an opinion. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: Then suddenly they start to enforce their opinion and refuse

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Speaker 3: to listen to yours, and there's the day we know

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Speaker 3: where we're losing them, Doctor Justinkilson. We want to keep control,

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Speaker 3: but we want them to grow into to adults. Once

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Speaker 3: they start as that sort of eighteen to enforce some

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Speaker 3: of their choice to not listen to you. That sounds

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Speaker 3: like one of the biggest headaches that I don't ever

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Speaker 3: want to.

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Speaker 4: Have yeah, they break our heart. That's the reality of it.

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Speaker 4: You guys aren't there yet.

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Speaker 5: I've got three teenagers and we've escaped relatively unscathed so far.

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Speaker 5: But you know, last a little while ago, very recently,

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Speaker 5: I had a chat with a dad who just said,

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Speaker 5: I am I'm more than struggling. I think I want

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Speaker 5: to either leave home or ask my son to leave home.

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Speaker 5: And I know, look, you just said late teens, but

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Speaker 5: sometimes it starts earlier than that. He said, My son

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Speaker 5: is fifteen, and I just don't know what to do

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Speaker 5: with him anymore. He lies and he looks me in

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Speaker 5: the eye and tells me that he's telling the truth.

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Speaker 5: And then I find out later that he's lied to me.

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Speaker 5: And you know, as a parent, when your kids lied

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Speaker 5: to he was like, oh my goodness, this is terrible.

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Speaker 5: He said, he thinks that the rules don't apply to him.

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Speaker 5: They apply to everybody else, but they don't apply to him.

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Speaker 5: He doesn't actually think that it's a problem for him

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Speaker 5: to jump in the car, even though he's unlicensed, nikov

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Speaker 5: for an hour to hang out with his mates. And

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Speaker 5: he said, what do I do, Like, I've hidden the keys,

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Speaker 5: and he finds the keys and he takes my car?

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Speaker 4: How do you? How do you deal with that?

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Speaker 5: And don't you can't do I march him down to

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Speaker 5: the cop shop and say, my son drove the car

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Speaker 5: to do something.

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Speaker 4: And the police what are they going to do?

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Speaker 5: And so we're having this conversation and he shared a

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Speaker 5: couple of other things that were frightening about what this

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Speaker 5: boy had been doing. And he said, where do I

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Speaker 5: Where do I go with this? And whenever I ask

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Speaker 5: him to do something, he just says no. And then

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Speaker 5: the interesting thing that he said was this, he said,

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Speaker 5: he's actually not a bad kid. He's actually a great kid.

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Speaker 5: He's not drinking, he's not smoking, he's not taking drugs.

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Speaker 5: I don't even think he's getting up to any mischief

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Speaker 5: with any of the girls. I think he's a really

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Speaker 5: good kid. He just hates authority and he hates me

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Speaker 5: telling him what to do, and so he rebels.

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Speaker 4: He said, what do I do? And I think that

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Speaker 4: I should tell you right after the break, I'm just

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Speaker 4: en Don't you hate it when they do that? To

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Speaker 4: be continued, So what do you do in that situation?

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Speaker 5: The reality is once our teenagers get to about fifteen sixteen,

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Speaker 5: and certainly by the time they're seventeen. There are some

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Speaker 5: parenting experts who will say it's my way or the highway,

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Speaker 5: my house, my rules. And when I hear those experts

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Speaker 5: say those things, I ask myself, I wonder how long

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Speaker 5: it's been since they had a teenager, because when we

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Speaker 5: try that with our teenagers, you know what.

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Speaker 4: They say, Okay, but see, grab me a suitcase. I'm out.

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Speaker 4: I'm not playing this game anymore. Late they go, and

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Speaker 4: then as.

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Speaker 5: Parents we kind of go, well, that's actually not good

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Speaker 5: because now I've got no control on it.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what they might get up to.

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Speaker 5: And the other interesting thing about that is once our

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Speaker 5: kids do leave, once they get in that tears, they

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Speaker 5: once we get to that point, they feel un wanted

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Speaker 5: and the best way for them to respond in their

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Speaker 5: minds at that point is to do foolish things.

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Speaker 4: To hurt us.

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Speaker 5: Because they feel unwanted, they feel like they don't matter,

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Speaker 5: they feel unloved, and therefore who cares.

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Speaker 4: I can do whatever I want.

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Speaker 5: So I talked to this dad about an idea, and

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Speaker 5: I'm going to be sharing this idea on the TED

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Speaker 5: stage fairly soon in Melbourne.

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Speaker 4: So you're getting a little bit of a sneak peek here.

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Speaker 5: Nice, But I'm giving a talk about raising rebels, and

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Speaker 5: this is what I teach my kids. I want you

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Speaker 5: to have your own opinions. I want you to rebel.

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Speaker 5: I actually want to raise children who are not afraid

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Speaker 5: to go against the crowd and even to go against

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Speaker 5: their parents. But I want them to be a very

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Speaker 5: specific kind of rebel. I don't want them to be

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Speaker 5: a reflexive rebel. I want them to be a reflective rebel.

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Speaker 5: What I mean by that is a reflexive rebel is

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Speaker 5: what you get with your typical teenager. You can't make

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Speaker 5: me whatever it is you're for, I'm against. I'm just

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Speaker 5: saying no, Yeah, that's the whole I'm just I'm just

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Speaker 5: gonna lash out.

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Speaker 3: I've had some bosses like that too.

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Speaker 4: But then you can get what I call a reflective rebel.

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Speaker 4: And a reflective rebel.

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Speaker 5: Is someone who says, this feels unjust, this feels inappropriate.

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Speaker 4: I don't like it. It feels like I'm being hard.

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Speaker 5: Or it might be that other people are being hurt

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Speaker 5: by a certain policy or a certain idea. I wonder

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Speaker 5: what the best way would be for me to show resistance.

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Speaker 5: So that we can improve life, improve the world. It's

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Speaker 5: a very it's almost like it's a it's such a

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Speaker 5: different approach. And when I think about people who have

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Speaker 5: been reflective rebels, big names come to mind, like Gandhi

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Speaker 5: or Nelson, Mandela or Rosa Parks, you know, the American

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Speaker 5: the African American woman on the bus, yeah, who refused

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Speaker 5: to give up her seat. And while I'm not Malala

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Speaker 5: Yusufzai who was shot in the head because she refused

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Speaker 5: to stop attending school and talking about how girls in

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Speaker 5: Afghanistan should be allowed to be educated, they're what I

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Speaker 5: call reflective rebels. And I'm not suggesting that our children

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Speaker 5: are going to become world changes.

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Speaker 2: We'd rather they not get you on the heads.

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Speaker 5: Preferable, although some parents are listening and thinking it could be. No,

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Speaker 5: I didn't even say that that was that was a

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Speaker 5: poor taste. Oh dear, I'm so, and you laughed that

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Speaker 5: was impoor taste. But you know, we want our children

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Speaker 5: to to show that they're able to think about this

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Speaker 5: stuff maturely and then to approach us with perhaps a

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Speaker 5: little bit of humility, but certainly with a level of

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Speaker 5: confidence and say what you're saying to me just doesn't

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Speaker 5: seem fair. And these are the reasons, and as parents,

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Speaker 5: we we've got to be open to having those conversations

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Speaker 5: because if we're not, they will reflexively rebel and will

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Speaker 5: end up far worse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's basically it sounds like the goal in those

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Speaker 1: years leading up to that teendom of rebellion is to

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Speaker 1: instill wisdom, yes, as opposed to just educating our kids.

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Speaker 2: Teach them how to process in a way that is wise.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I want my kids to be strong

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Speaker 5: and caring, Strong as in having the wisdom to rebel

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Speaker 5: reflectively and stand firm when the crowd's going one way,

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Speaker 5: be willing to go the other way. I think it

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Speaker 5: was Augustine of Hippo who said right is right even

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Speaker 5: if nobody's doing it. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody's

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Speaker 5: doing it. And I want my kids to be able

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Speaker 5: to look at a situation and say that. But we

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Speaker 5: also want them to be caring and compassionate and respectful.

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Speaker 5: Now there's one more thing that I said to this dad,

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Speaker 5: because he said, what you're asking is very, very hard,

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Speaker 5: I said, well, I've got something even harder for you.

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Speaker 4: Now, at the point.

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Speaker 5: Where your children deserve your love the least. It's the

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Speaker 5: time that they need it the most. So what we've

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Speaker 5: got to do in these desperately difficult situations, as hard

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Speaker 5: as it is, is, to find ways that we can

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Speaker 5: show kindness to them. It means we've got to our

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Speaker 5: tongue when we want to make that Snyder remark, that

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Speaker 5: means that we look, maybe we've got a seventeen year

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Speaker 5: old who has lost their license or who has refused

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Speaker 5: to live by the rules of what it takes to

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Speaker 5: drive a car responsibilive. So we might say, I want

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Speaker 5: you to drive, but you just can't because you're using

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Speaker 5: your phone, you're not wearing a seatbelt, you're driving recklessly,

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Speaker 5: you're speeding, whatever it is. So I've got the keys back,

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Speaker 5: and so maybe we say to them, I'll drive you

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Speaker 5: to work, and I'm not going to complain about it.

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Speaker 5: I'm not going to make you feel bad about it.

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Speaker 5: I'm not going to do it gladly, but I'm going

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Speaker 5: to accept that this is where we are right now.

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Speaker 5: And I said to him, you need to accept your son,

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Speaker 5: and you need to find ways where you can give

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Speaker 5: him a hug or tell him that you love him.

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Speaker 5: Or engage in some way in rebuilding the relationship, because

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Speaker 5: if you don't rebuild the relationship, you'll never have influence.

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Speaker 5: Hard hard, hard to do, especially when the conflict is

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Speaker 5: that deep. And when the conflict's that deep, it affects

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Speaker 5: the whole family. It affects your marriage, it affects your

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Speaker 5: relationship with your kids, it affects you workd it spills

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Speaker 5: over it to everything. But if we can work on

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Speaker 5: having tiny, tiny winds, small winds where we can just

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Speaker 5: respond to one another with a little bit of kindness,

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Speaker 5: we can actually change our family and change our relationship.

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Speaker 3: Let me wind back, because it all sounds wonderful, But

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Speaker 3: let's go to this fifteen year old boy who's doing

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Speaker 3: those things and he's taken off of the car. You

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Speaker 3: sit down with him, and how do you go from

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Speaker 3: that dad's moment? Because most of the work that you

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Speaker 3: were talking about really is really wonderful if it's done

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Speaker 3: before that point, to avoid that point after it once

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Speaker 3: he's in the midst of the heat of that battle,

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Speaker 3: how do you go that first step, like, once you're

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Speaker 3: into the swing of things great, how does that dad

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Speaker 3: go from bulletgate conflict to sitting down having a point

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Speaker 3: of understanding with that fifteen year old.

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Speaker 4: You know, we're all going to do with this differently.

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Speaker 5: Some of us might just go quiet because we give

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Speaker 5: up and we say I'm broken, I've got nothing, and

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Speaker 5: we hang our head in our and we just.

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Speaker 4: Cry. Well, you think I've failed as a parent.

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Speaker 5: You haven't, but sometimes children, especially teenagers, will make you

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Speaker 5: feel like you have. We've got to get to a

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Speaker 5: point where we can have a conversation with them without screaming,

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Speaker 5: without shouting, without name calling.

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Speaker 2: And that's a timing thing, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: It is a timing thing.

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Speaker 5: If you try to do it while your emotions are

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Speaker 5: right up through the roof or while theirs are, it's

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Speaker 5: not going to work. And so maybe late at night

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Speaker 5: or maybe the next morning, you jump in the car

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Speaker 5: together and you go for a drive, or you if

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Speaker 5: you're lucky enough to live near the coast, you go

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Speaker 5: down to the beach, or if you live near a mountain,

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Speaker 5: you say we're going for a walk tomorrow. It's a

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Speaker 5: father something. I know you're probably not keen, but it's

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Speaker 5: going to be worth it, and we need to do it.

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Speaker 5: And boys, in particular, they do things, they communicate well,

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Speaker 5: when they're side by side, you know, they really communicate

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Speaker 5: well during and after activities. Girls are much happier to

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Speaker 5: talk face to face, but boys get out and get

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Speaker 5: them active and they'll start talking in nature. Wow, And

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Speaker 5: don't say anything, just just get some activity going. Don't talk,

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Speaker 5: just say I'm glad you came with me. That's a

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Speaker 5: small win right there. And if they won't come with you,

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Speaker 5: then sit down in their bedroom or you know, you've

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Speaker 5: got to have a conversation at some point, but make

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Speaker 5: sure everyone's relaxed.

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Speaker 4: Happen.

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Speaker 2: Your own child's not recommending.

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Speaker 4: Look, you can jump into a little two man kayak

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Speaker 4: and paddle.

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Speaker 3: Water with crocodiles and they just choose to swim.

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Speaker 5: But what you want to do is you you just

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Speaker 5: want to get them talking. And you might start by

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Speaker 5: simply saying things are pretty tough at the moment, aren't they,

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Speaker 5: And the conversation will naturally evolve, so long as you

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Speaker 5: don't start judging or name calling or doing any of

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Speaker 5: that sort of stuff. And at some point you want

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Speaker 5: to get to the stage where you can say we're

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Speaker 5: really struggling, how can we work on this? And then

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Speaker 5: as too mature or maturing individuals. I mean, there's nothing

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Speaker 5: the matter with saying to your kids, we're both learning

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Speaker 5: this is really hard.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what to do.

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Speaker 5: No one's ever done this stuff to me before. But

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Speaker 5: they need to feel that we love them and that

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Speaker 5: we want to find a solution.

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Speaker 2: Even what do you think you need from me?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you can.

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Speaker 5: And by the way, you shouldn't always expect that you'll

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Speaker 5: get a result right here and now. You might actually

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Speaker 5: get resistance and rebellion, at which point you say, all right, well,

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Speaker 5: you know, until we can have this conversation. You know,

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Speaker 5: I'm not going to kick you out a home, but

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Speaker 5: I certainly I'm not going to let you drive. You know,

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Speaker 5: I can't take your phone off you because it's just

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Speaker 5: not practical or good luck.

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Speaker 4: I mean, World War three.

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Speaker 5: The more you control and punish, the worse it gets.

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Speaker 5: So just give it space, give it time to breathe.

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Speaker 5: And what you'll usually find is that our children, no

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Speaker 5: matter how angry they are, they will calm down because

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Speaker 5: they want good relationships with us, and they will eventually

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Speaker 5: come to us. It might take two days, it might

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Speaker 5: take two weeks, it might take two months, but they

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Speaker 5: will come to you if you can keep being kind

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Speaker 5: and being compassionate. I said to this dad, one last thing.

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Speaker 5: It's a little bit unkind, but I well, it's not unkind. Yes,

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Speaker 5: it is unkind.

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Speaker 2: Will be the judges of that.

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Speaker 5: I was just having this negotiation with myself right now,

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Speaker 5: this debate. I'm not sure who's going to win. I

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Speaker 5: said to him. Actually, he said to me here again,

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Speaker 5: he said to me, the problem is my son, though

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Speaker 5: he keeps doing all of these things, and he is

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Speaker 5: the problem in my family. My comment to him was this,

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Speaker 5: while ever you see your son as the problem, you've

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Speaker 5: become the problem. And he didn't like that at all.

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Speaker 5: But if you step back and think about it, when

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Speaker 5: we see our children as the problem, that becomes a

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Speaker 5: far bigger problem than anything that our children are doing,

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Speaker 5: because it makes us resentful to them, it makes us

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Speaker 5: angry at them, and we step away from them, and.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what they do.

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Speaker 1: We see it through a lens of that that they're

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Speaker 1: doing the wrong.

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Speaker 3: Experience I had recently, and this is my I guess listen,

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Speaker 3: this wasn't with our kids, but it was with an

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Speaker 3: adult relationship, and it was I before any chance for

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Speaker 3: that conflict conversation to have. I sat myself down and

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Speaker 3: I spoke to myself, and I chose understanding, and I

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Speaker 3: chose grace, and I pre chose that before any conversations

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Speaker 3: were ever had, before any mistakes were ever made, before

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Speaker 3: any sort of backlash came, I pre chose understanding that

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Speaker 3: they're facing challenges that I'm not facing, and their ability

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Speaker 3: to make those decisions are not the same as my

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Speaker 3: ability to make those decisions.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 3: I have to understand they've got different things going on

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Speaker 3: for them, and regardless, I'm choosing to show grace and love,

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Speaker 3: regardless of whether they've genuinely made mistakes. And what it

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Speaker 3: meant was when we had conversations, I wasn't reacting and

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Speaker 3: I wasn't yelling, and I wasn't burring up because I

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Speaker 3: pre chose understanding and I pre chose grace. And I

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Speaker 3: thought to myself, what happens if every time I approach

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Speaker 3: my kids and my wife, I pre choose understanding and

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Speaker 3: pre choose grace before any of these conversations, how many

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Speaker 3: conflicts would we avoid?

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Speaker 4: How's that going, Sizzy?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's amazing.

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Speaker 4: That was a nice response.

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad you said that not always the case.

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Speaker 3: But we're all.

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Speaker 2: Learning together, aren't we.

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Speaker 3: I think, look at that she she just used your

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Speaker 3: little We're all learning.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for the counseling session.

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Speaker 3: Just what another one of those big topics, those teens

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Speaker 3: that are just refusing to listen to you. Wonderful insight

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Speaker 3: and very challenging process to be able to approach some

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Speaker 3: of that, and applicable not just with our teens, because

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Speaker 3: in most of our adult relationships we don't have the

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Speaker 3: control with other people. These are wonderful skills to be

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Speaker 3: able to learn in those circumstances as well. Dr Justin Keilson,

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Speaker 3: thank you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you the more tips and ideas when it comes

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Speaker 1: to parenting our children well. You can find loads of books, podcasts,

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Speaker 1: and programs available at Justin's website. It is Happy Families

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Speaker 1: dot com dot au. And if you're interested in having

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Speaker 1: Justin speak at your school or your organization, go to

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Speaker 1: Justinculson dot com