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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, what the research has found was that inflated praise

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Speaker 2: decreases challenge seeking in children with low self esteem, and

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Speaker 2: it has the opposite effect on kids with hig self esteem.

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Speaker 2: But you don't worry about praising the kids with hi

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Speaker 2: self esteem, right because they already feel awesome about life

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Speaker 2: and they're going to do whatever they do anyway.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson. Welcome to another week.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why I welcome people of the week.

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Speaker 2: Is it my job? Am I the official week welcomer.

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Speaker 3: Well, when we met, you were an official president of

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Speaker 3: the Good Time Committee, so you have a way of you.

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Speaker 2: Know, we met a little yourself in for those who

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Speaker 2: would like the origin story in fifteen seconds or less.

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Speaker 2: We met at a conference. While I was waiting for

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Speaker 2: the conference to start, I pretty much noticed that everyone

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Speaker 2: was standing around doing nothing, and so as people arrived,

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Speaker 2: I would introduce myself, say hi, my name's just that

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Speaker 2: I'm president of the Good Time Committee. If you're not

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Speaker 2: having a good time, come and find me and I'll

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Speaker 2: see if I can help you. And it was all

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Speaker 2: very fun, and there was no such thing as a

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Speaker 2: good time committee. And I was self appointed, and I'm

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Speaker 2: sure the conference convenience would have been most unhappy. But

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Speaker 2: I am kind of the official welcoming, right I the

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Speaker 2: unofficial official I've designated myself. Anyway, It's Monday. Welcome, Welcome

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Speaker 2: to Monday, Welcome to the week. Today we're going to

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Speaker 2: have a conversation about a topic that, let's just say

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Speaker 2: it like this, I'm going to we are going to

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Speaker 2: slay a sacred cow of parenting advice. On the scale

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Speaker 2: of degree of how severely bad some parenting advice is.

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Speaker 2: This one's not right up there with the worst of it.

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Speaker 2: But it's one of those things that I just think

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Speaker 2: needs a conversation now and then to remind parents that

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Speaker 2: the way we give feedback to our children matters. I

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Speaker 2: ran a presentation at a beautiful school in the Redland

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Speaker 2: Bay area, the sort of the bayside area of Brisbane

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Speaker 2: last week the week before almost in college. And while

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Speaker 2: I was there, one of the questions from one of

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Speaker 2: the parents was what I do about like, what's the

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Speaker 2: right way to praise my child when they do something well,

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Speaker 2: because I want to really encourage them and I want

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Speaker 2: them to be motivated to do their schoolwork and to

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Speaker 2: do well at sports and cross country and music and

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Speaker 2: all the things that this parent was invested in their

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Speaker 2: child doing well in it. It was a great question,

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Speaker 2: and I had to do the big Okay, here we go.

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Speaker 2: We're going to go deep. I've got to take a

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Speaker 2: deep breath, and that's what we're going to do today.

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Speaker 2: I just thought it was such an important thing for

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Speaker 2: us to talk about, because there is this belief out there, Kylie,

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Speaker 2: that was supposed to pump up our kids tires, to

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Speaker 2: make them feel good and to help them to be motivated.

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Speaker 3: So this is an area that kind of I think,

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Speaker 3: even as a parent and as an individual, take parenting

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Speaker 3: out of the equation that I really grapple with. In

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Speaker 3: my early childhood background, our lecturers used to talk to

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Speaker 3: us a lot about the need to not evaluate the

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Speaker 3: children within our care's efforts in any shape or form,

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Speaker 3: regardless of what it was, whether they were the art table,

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Speaker 3: or they were doing plato, or they were just climbing

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Speaker 3: the climbing frames.

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Speaker 2: So just don't evaluate.

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Speaker 3: There was no evaluation to be given, and so over

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Speaker 3: time you learn the art of asking questions as opposed

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Speaker 3: to labeling children. But I know all my own life,

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Speaker 3: when I do something really good and I'm really proud

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Speaker 3: of it, I want to hear that acknowledgment that someone

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Speaker 3: else recognizes the effort or the magnitude of what I've achieved.

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Speaker 2: I love that you're saying this because you've married the

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Speaker 2: guy who is a complete non praise.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, but no, no, no, let me finish.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we're butting all over.

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Speaker 3: But there are times where people have, for all intents

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Speaker 3: and purposes, evaluated what I've done not to the standard

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Speaker 3: that I feel i've done it, And I'm like, you

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Speaker 3: don't have a clue that.

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Speaker 2: Was a really good effort and you've just said good job. Yeah. Yes,

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Speaker 2: so I want. I want recognition and acknowledg but I

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Speaker 2: want it to be to the levels that I think

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Speaker 2: that it deserves. And if I don't get it, then

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Speaker 2: you're not praising well enough. That doesn't work. So let's debunket.

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Speaker 3: You obviously are really really strong on this praise thing.

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Speaker 2: I really am. Yeah. I remember about twenty years ago

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Speaker 2: when our eldest was only quite young and we were

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Speaker 2: with some friends and I made this comment about how

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Speaker 2: it would be better to not praise the kids, and

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Speaker 2: he rolled his eyes. Steve rolled his eyes and said, oh,

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Speaker 2: are you one of those non praise people. And I

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Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I am. But there's actually good evidence

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Speaker 2: for it, and over the last twenty years we've got

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Speaker 2: even more evidence for it. So first of all, it's

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Speaker 2: probably worth just highlighting white people praise. I think we

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Speaker 2: need to spend some time there. We have this sense

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Speaker 2: that it's going to be motivating for kids, and it's

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Speaker 2: true that it is. We've got plenty of research that

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Speaker 2: shows that in the instance that somebody receives praise, whether

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Speaker 2: a child or an adult, it feels nice, but only

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Speaker 2: in the instant. And there's even some research that calls

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Speaker 2: that into question. So there's some research that says that

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Speaker 2: if you praise a child and say, ah, good job

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Speaker 2: or great sharing or super running or nice tidying, or

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Speaker 2: any of those kinds of throwaway praisy kind of lines,

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Speaker 2: sometimes not not always, It depends on how you do

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Speaker 2: it in the context, but quite often children will infer

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Speaker 2: low ability. That is, if you're praising me for doing it.

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Speaker 2: You must think I'm not good at it. Well, I was.

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Speaker 3: As you were talking, I was thinking about the times

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Speaker 3: where I have done things and I haven't been proud

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Speaker 3: of it. I don't feel like it's a great job, right,

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Speaker 3: and yet somebody will tell me that it is. And

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Speaker 3: my instant thought process is, you're just saying that because

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Speaker 3: you love me, or you're just saying that.

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Speaker 2: Because you have to. When I was a teenager, I

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Speaker 2: jumped on the bus, paid my fare to go to

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Speaker 2: the beach. The bus driver gave me my change, and

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Speaker 2: as I walked to my seat, put my surfboard into

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Speaker 2: the bus and sit down beside it, I realized that

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Speaker 2: the bus driver had given me too much change. For

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Speaker 2: some reason. I walked back to him and said, you

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Speaker 2: gave me twenty cents too much change, and he praised

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Speaker 2: me for He said, oh, good, good boy, you're such

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Speaker 2: an honest boy. I was like fourteen or thirteen or

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Speaker 2: something like that, and I remember as he said it,

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Speaker 2: I cringed inside because as soon as he said it,

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Speaker 2: I thought of all the times that I haven't been honest,

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Speaker 2: and I thought, oh, buddy, you don't know the behalf

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Speaker 2: of it. I don't actually know why I gave you

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Speaker 2: the twenty cents back because I am not an honest boy,

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Speaker 2: and him saying that made me hyper aware that I

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Speaker 2: did not deserve that praise. But we do it because

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Speaker 2: we want to motivate a certain kind of behavior. Other

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Speaker 2: research suggests that we praise our kids because we want

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Speaker 2: to boost their self esteem. You know how I respond

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Speaker 2: to that. When you teach your children to look to

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Speaker 2: external sources for validation of their value and their worth,

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Speaker 2: you do not boost their self esteem.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: What also has been shown in research is that while

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Speaker 2: you might get a subsequent boost in happiness, motivation, satisfaction

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Speaker 2: with life when you get praise. If you get praised

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Speaker 2: for let's say, getting an A plus on an exam,

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Speaker 2: Oh great job, you're so smart. I think that you

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Speaker 2: might be my gift child. Like you say that to

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Speaker 2: the kiddo, and then they do the next exam and

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Speaker 2: they don't get the A plus, they get a B minus.

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Speaker 2: What does that say about whether they really are gifted

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Speaker 2: or not? They've lost their gifts completely. It means that

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Speaker 2: they're not nearly as smart. But what does it also

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Speaker 2: say about your judgment? Now they're going to question your

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Speaker 2: judgment Oh, my parents are just saying it because they

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Speaker 2: have to. My parents' judgment is flawed, just like my

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Speaker 2: intelligence is flawed. And so it's not so much of

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Speaker 2: what happens in the immediate moment, it's the aftermath when

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Speaker 2: there is a subsequent setback that is challenging. Got a

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Speaker 2: couple of other reasons that people praise their kids. They

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Speaker 2: will often do it as an incentive, like they're doing

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Speaker 2: it to really, I guess, push them along.

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Speaker 3: I've heard many times, especially in the classroom, praise the good,

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Speaker 3: ignore the bad for kids that are really really struggling.

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Speaker 3: And so you've got this kid who you know, ninety

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Speaker 3: percent of the time is quite disruptive in class, but

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Speaker 3: the three or four times in a day where they're

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Speaker 3: sitting quietly ham it up, Yes, and make a really

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Speaker 3: big deal about it. Yes, And yet you're suggesting that

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Speaker 3: even that's flawed as well.

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Speaker 2: Deeply, deeply. In fact, a couple of my notes here

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Speaker 2: that I was thinking about, I wrote down, we praise

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Speaker 2: the kids that we think need it because it will

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Speaker 2: help them believe that they're good. This is that classic.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it was like this when you're

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Speaker 2: at school and I'm hoping that most schools don't do

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Speaker 2: this anymore. But this is that thing where the kid

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Speaker 2: that is a really challenging kid in class is good

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Speaker 2: for three minutes and the teacher says, oh, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to give you a gold star. I'm going to give

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Speaker 2: you a merit award for assembly on Friday, and the

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Speaker 2: kids are sitting there going the teacher's only doing this

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Speaker 2: because that kid never gets one and they needed to

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Speaker 2: find an excuse. Like, the kids can see it, and

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Speaker 2: even the one who gets it can. But I think

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Speaker 2: the number one reason that we praise our kids is

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Speaker 2: because it feels like it's right to say nice things.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that's what we're supposed to do.

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Speaker 3: So I know you're saying all of this, but this

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Speaker 3: is ingrained in society totally and so deeply, and I

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Speaker 3: think that most people would really struggle with the idea

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Speaker 3: that we are not supposed to praise our kids. Specifically.

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Speaker 3: Is there any science behind this, because this is.

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Speaker 2: Big Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I'm going to step through

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Speaker 2: maybe three or four research articles in thirty seconds or

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Speaker 2: less for each one. This is not a doctor's this

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Speaker 2: is not a doctor's desk episode, but it's really important.

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Speaker 2: So in the early nineteen nineties one of my favorite

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Speaker 2: studies on praise was published. It was really smart study

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Speaker 2: by a guy called Wolfmeier, and what he found is

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Speaker 2: he called it the Paradoxical Effects of praise and criticism

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Speaker 2: on perceived ability. Essentially, what he found is once kids

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Speaker 2: get to about the age of five or six, when

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Speaker 2: we praise them and tell them how good they are.

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Speaker 2: I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I want

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Speaker 2: to go into a bit about why they actually think

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Speaker 2: I mustn't be very good if you have to give

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Speaker 2: me praise around this. And the way it works is

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Speaker 2: it's kind of like I'm going to infer low ability

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Speaker 2: to myself. If you're telling me I'm great, or if.

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Speaker 3: I'm great doing this and I know that I've only

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Speaker 3: done a mediocre job, then I actually don't need to

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Speaker 3: try any harder to get the same.

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Speaker 2: It can do that as well. Yeah, yeah, but I

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Speaker 2: would imagine it's kind of like sitting at the dinner

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Speaker 2: table and your parents are saying, Oh, this broccoli. Oh,

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Speaker 2: my goodness, I've never had broccoli like this. Kid. You've

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Speaker 2: got to try this broccoli. It is amazing. Oh I'm

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Speaker 2: putting it in my mouth. Now, oh, the broccoli is

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Speaker 2: so good, And as a child, you're looking here, parent, going,

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Speaker 2: if you're trying to sell it that hard broccoli must

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Speaker 2: be the most disgusting thing on the face of the earth.

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Speaker 2: I'm never going to eat broccoli. So there's a paradoxical

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Speaker 2: effect that is, the more we pump it up, the

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Speaker 2: more the kids are like, yeah, right now. There's a

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Speaker 2: twenty fourteen study that was done by a guy called

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Speaker 2: Eddie Bremmelman and his colleagues, and this is a really

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Speaker 2: interesting one as well. That's not beautiful, that's incredibly beautiful,

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Speaker 2: the adverse impact of inflated praise on children with low

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Speaker 2: self esteem. So what they've basically said is, with kids

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Speaker 2: who have low self esteem, based on you know from

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Speaker 2: Meyer's study, the last thing we want to do is

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Speaker 2: give praise to kids with low self esteem, because the

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Speaker 2: paradoxical effect is that they are going who think they're

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Speaker 2: even worse. Right. But what we do instead, according to Brumbleman,

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Speaker 2: is we give inflated praise to those with the lowest

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Speaker 2: self esteem. So if I feel lousy about myself and

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Speaker 2: I've got a parent saying, oh, that is such a

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Speaker 2: brilliant job, Oh, you are amazing. You did such a

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Speaker 2: good job on that. As the kid with low self esteem,

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Speaker 2: I'm going, wow, I must really suck because they are

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Speaker 2: trying so hard to make me feel good about this,

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Speaker 2: which means that their perception of me is that I'm

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Speaker 2: terrible at it. And what the research has found was

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Speaker 2: that inflated praise decreases challenge seeking in children with low

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Speaker 2: self esteem, and it has the opposite effect on kids

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Speaker 2: with high self esteem. But you don't worry about praising

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Speaker 2: the kids with high self esteem, right because they already

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Speaker 2: feel awesome about life and they're going to do whatever

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Speaker 2: they do anyway. So that was a really fascinating one.

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Speaker 2: And while I could run through a whole lot of others,

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to mention one more because it really

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Speaker 2: is the praise research synthesis. This is the one that

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Speaker 2: pulls all together. It's actually about twenty years old now,

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Speaker 2: but it's just so so good. It's called the Effects

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Speaker 2: of Praise on Children's Intrinsic Motivation, a review and synthesis

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Speaker 2: by a lady called Jennifer Hendelong now a handle on

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Speaker 2: Corpus and Mark Lepper from Stanford, and what they've effectively

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Speaker 2: found is that the more we praise kids, the more

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Speaker 2: we reduce their intrinsic motivation, and the less likely it

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Speaker 2: is that they're going to be creative or curious or motivated,

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Speaker 2: And all we're really doing is promoting comparison and competition.

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Speaker 2: We've got to stop praising our kids.

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Speaker 3: This reminds me of some of the conversations we've had

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Speaker 3: with Alfie Kohane on the podcast. He talks a lot

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Speaker 3: about intrinsic motivation and how praise and rewards specifically can

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Speaker 3: lessen that in our kids.

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Speaker 2: So I shared all this with these parents and their

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Speaker 2: heads were spinning, their like, what are we supposed to say? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: What do you say?

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Speaker 3: How do we support our kids? And you know, kind

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Speaker 3: of let them know that we recognize the effort?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah?

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Speaker 3: How do we do that without saying you're.

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Speaker 2: A great kid? And the Carrol Dweck research on mindset

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Speaker 2: is all about praising the out praising the effort, not

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Speaker 2: the outcome. But I think that these studies and several

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Speaker 2: others are strong enough to call that profoundly into question.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that Carol Dweck has that right. I

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Speaker 2: don't think praise is necessary at all, what were you

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Speaker 2: told to do when a kid came to you in

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Speaker 2: an early childcare setting and they did something great. Maybe

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Speaker 2: it was a painting that it was drawing, maybe it

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Speaker 2: was helping somebody, but they were really they were looking

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Speaker 2: for some feedback, They were looking for some affirmation, or

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Speaker 2: they just wanted to show you the cool thing that

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Speaker 2: they'd done.

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Speaker 3: Ask questions, lots of questions, like what, so, how do

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Speaker 3: you feel about what you did?

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Speaker 2: Look at my painting? Do you like it? Well? How

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Speaker 2: do you feel about it?

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Speaker 3: Or acknowledge what we see so specifically? So if it's

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Speaker 3: a painting, for instance, it'd be like, Wow, you've used

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Speaker 3: lots of blue in this painting, and then you've got

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Speaker 3: this tiny pop of red. You know what, how do

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Speaker 3: you feel about? How do you feel about what you've done?

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Speaker 2: It feels a lot more effortful than good job, totally

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Speaker 2: great painting.

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Speaker 3: And it doesn't come naturally. No, Like when they first

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Speaker 3: were teaching me how to do it, it felt so robotic

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Speaker 3: and rope because I was kind of following a screeze.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, you've got it needed to happen. I'm

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Speaker 2: so glad you said it. You have to practice you

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Speaker 2: have to practice, and even hearing you say it then

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Speaker 2: it was kind of like, oh that, there's a bit

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Speaker 2: of cringe to that. I've worked on this for twenty

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Speaker 2: plus years with our kids. I mean, I've been thinking

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Speaker 2: about it deeply for twenty plus years. And I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you've noticed what I say when the kids

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Speaker 2: come into the kitchen and they say, Dad, Dad, I

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Speaker 2: got an A minus or I got an A plus

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Speaker 2: or I thought I was going to fail but I

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Speaker 2: ended up with a B plus. I mean, they don't

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Speaker 2: even have to have kicked it out of the park.

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Speaker 2: They're just really really happy with the result that they got.

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Speaker 2: Have you noticed what I say to them?

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Speaker 3: You say, how do you feel about that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Normally I won't ask the question straight away, though.

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Speaker 2: Normally I'll reflect what I'm seeing. I'll say what I see.

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Speaker 2: So when they're bouncing off I'm really happy about that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I'll say, oh, you seem so stoked, and I'll

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Speaker 2: give them a great big hut. I say, look at

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Speaker 2: the smile on your face. That must have felt so

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Speaker 2: good when you got that result. And so what I'm

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Speaker 2: describing to them is what I'm seeing on their face,

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Speaker 2: what I'm seeing in their behavior as a result of

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Speaker 2: the grade or the fact that they won the race,

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Speaker 2: or they got to result somewhere, they got the play

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Speaker 2: and the part in the play. And the cool thing

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Speaker 2: about that is it works when they're disappointed as well.

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Speaker 2: They come into the kitchen, they're devastated because they failed,

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Speaker 2: or they've got to see or whatever, and I'll say, wow,

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Speaker 2: it looks like that one really hurt. Or it sounds

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Speaker 2: like you expected to get a better result and this

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Speaker 2: hasn't worked out for you. And what that does is

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Speaker 2: it takes away all of the evaluation. It takes away

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Speaker 2: all of that. My parents are trying to manipulate me

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Speaker 2: into eating the broccoli. My parents are trying to prove

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Speaker 2: to me that I'm smart. Because the thing we want

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Speaker 2: to do is we want to get reassurance. Right want

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Speaker 2: to say to the kids, Oh, but you're a smart kid.

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Speaker 2: It must have just been one of those days. What happened?

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Speaker 2: Why we kind of give them the feedback That doesn't work,

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Speaker 2: So I would say, the best thing you can do

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Speaker 2: is just point out here's what I'm seeing. You seem

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Speaker 2: so excited. Wow, that looks like that really hurt. And

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Speaker 2: then once they've given their own feedback to you about

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Speaker 2: how they feel about it, whether it was great or not.

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Speaker 2: Then you can say, well, you know what, I just

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Speaker 2: love you like crazy, give me a hug, congratulations on

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Speaker 2: the grade. Or you might say, oh, well that must

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Speaker 2: have hurt. Come and give me a hug. Let's talk

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Speaker 2: about what we can do next time so that this

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Speaker 2: doesn't happen again. I presume you don't want to get

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Speaker 2: more c's. I presume you don't want to miss out

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Speaker 2: on that thing that's important to you, and you start

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Speaker 2: to problem solve. In fact, even when they do well,

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Speaker 2: you start to problem solve. You got that a how

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Speaker 2: did you get it? What can we do to make

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Speaker 2: sure that you keep getting this? Because it feels pretty

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Speaker 2: done good, doesn't it. And so the conversation is qualitatively different.

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Speaker 2: It's not praise anymore. They've done their own praising, and

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Speaker 2: now you can just have a conversation about what you see,

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Speaker 2: how they feel, how they got there, and what might

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Speaker 2: happen next time to get results that are in line

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Speaker 2: with what they're looking for in life.

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Speaker 3: So, if this is the avenue that we're taking with

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Speaker 3: them as chill, how do we get them to adults

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Speaker 3: who actually don't need the evaluation of others. They don't

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Speaker 3: need the praise from other people, they don't need the recognition.

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Speaker 2: I actually think this is the process. See when I

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Speaker 2: say to my child, ah, I can see on your face,

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Speaker 2: this must have lit you up when you got that outcome.

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Speaker 2: What my child then does is they say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I am really pumped. I'm so happy. I did a

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Speaker 2: great job. In fact, I'll usually say to me, Dad,

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Speaker 2: I worked so hard, I studied, I ran, I practiced,

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Speaker 2: I did this blah blah blah, I did all this

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Speaker 2: stuff and I got the outcome. And then I get

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Speaker 2: to say, well, what does that tell us? What does

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Speaker 2: that teach you? So what are we going to do

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Speaker 2: next time to make sure that we get the same thing?

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Speaker 2: And they're doing or they're actually hearing their in a voice,

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Speaker 2: and they're looking inwards for their evaluations of their outcomes,

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Speaker 2: their evaluation of their worth as a person, rather than

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Speaker 2: looking to me. What I'm doing instead is I'm supporting

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Speaker 2: them as they look inside. And the cool thing then

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Speaker 2: is once they've done that, I can give them that

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Speaker 2: hug and say, you know what, I'm so proud. I'm

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Speaker 2: not proud of you because of the result. I'm proud

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Speaker 2: of you because of the way you're thinking about this,

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Speaker 2: And so this is a they've already done their praising.

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Speaker 2: I can say anything after that doesn't really matter. But

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Speaker 2: the critical thing here is they're learning to listen to

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Speaker 2: their voice, and as they do that, they become more

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Speaker 2: confident in themselves, which means they are less likely look

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Speaker 2: outward for evaluation.

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Speaker 3: What I love about this process is you talk about

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Speaker 3: that in a voice, you're actually helping them to express

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Speaker 3: that in a voice yeah, and helping them to recognize

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Speaker 3: that it's their voice, not yours.

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Speaker 2: We really hope that this has been an informative and

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Speaker 2: maybe mindset changing conversation about the perils of praise and

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Speaker 2: what we can do instead. Thanks so much for joining

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Speaker 2: us on the Happy Families podcast. It's produced by Justin

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Speaker 2: Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 2: For more information about making your family happier, you can

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Speaker 2: find an entire chapter about this topic in my book

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Speaker 2: Nine Ways to a Resilient Child. It's online or in

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Speaker 2: bookstores wherever you grab your books. And for more about

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Speaker 2: making your family happier, check out at Happy families dot

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Speaker 2: com dot au, or on Facebook at doctor Justin Colson's

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Speaker 2: Happy Families