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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, you treat the family home as the nest that

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Speaker 2: the parents fly away from and return to, and so

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Speaker 2: therefore the kids have that stability at all times.

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Speaker 3: The kids don't leave home.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Hey, did you notice that the floor is really clean?

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Speaker 3: I've been vacuuming.

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Speaker 4: It does look very clean.

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Speaker 2: I've been asking the children for two weeks to vacuum

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Speaker 2: my office.

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Speaker 4: They must have just provided you with the space to

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Speaker 4: realize you.

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Speaker 2: Could do it for this. Well, it's been done, and

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Speaker 2: it's really nice. I think that it's probably been I

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Speaker 2: shouldn't say. It would be embarrassing if I said how

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Speaker 2: long it's been since my office was vacuumed.

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Speaker 4: I think it might be a bit embarrassing. Okay, you

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Speaker 4: did tell everybody.

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Speaker 3: Let's move on.

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Speaker 2: My name is doctor Justin Colson on the Oh gosh,

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Speaker 2: I can't even remember what I am.

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Speaker 3: You've distracted me. I'm the cleaner around here.

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Speaker 4: Think well, there's some cleaning that needs to be done

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Speaker 4: upstairs when you're finished.

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Speaker 2: Tidy Up Guy, the author of six books about raising

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Speaker 2: happy families, and the family of.

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Speaker 3: Them are about cleaning though happy families.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I talk about chores, happy families dot com dot au,

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Speaker 2: I talk about chores in my books.

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Speaker 4: Now you make your kids do well?

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Speaker 3: Obviously? Do you have a cheurll list?

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Speaker 2: My chill list is unending. It's like the laundry pile.

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Speaker 2: It just keeps on getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

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Speaker 2: When let's not have that conversation, we've got to talk.

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Speaker 2: So and you're Kylie, you're my wife, mum to have

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Speaker 2: six kids and a bit of an antagonist.

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Speaker 3: Today I get the feeling.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm not an afterthought.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, definitely not. Hey, So every Tuesday we

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Speaker 2: have an important conversation, we answer a listener question. Uh,

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Speaker 2: and we have got an absolute doozy today. This is

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Speaker 2: a really tough one. It's not going to be applicable

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Speaker 2: to every family, but there are a lot of families,

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Speaker 2: especially at this time of year, who have to navigate

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Speaker 2: the fact that they're not constructed how they once were.

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Speaker 2: There's been a split and this question comes from die.

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Speaker 4: She said. My ex and I have been amicably separated,

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Speaker 4: divorced for four years and have share care of our son.

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Speaker 4: I have him most of the time. My ex husband

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Speaker 4: has mental illnesses and adult ADHD. His home is filthy,

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Speaker 4: and he has no boundaries for our son. He acknowledges

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Speaker 4: he can't break out of the challenging cycle he is in.

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Speaker 4: But I can only do so much and he only

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Speaker 4: accepts so much help. There's no real engagement when he's

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Speaker 4: at his dad's, no accountability, no parenting happening. And I

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Speaker 4: know it's not coming from a malicious place. It's because

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Speaker 4: my ex simply cannot do it. He doesn't have the capacity.

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Speaker 4: How can I work with my ex? Some strategies he

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Speaker 4: and or I can employ to make sure what needs

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Speaker 4: to happen.

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Speaker 2: Does Okay, So not every family that has gone through

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Speaker 2: a separation is going to be in exactly the same context.

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Speaker 2: So what I think we should do is just bring

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Speaker 2: this back a little bit. I mean, it's so tough,

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Speaker 2: it is so hard, And what I love about this

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Speaker 2: particular letter is that the relationship's amicable and you can

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Speaker 2: actually hear our letter writer. You can hear die giving

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Speaker 2: her ex husband the benefit of the doubt and acknowledging

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Speaker 2: how he's trying, and the fact that they are. They

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Speaker 2: do want to be on the same page. They want

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Speaker 2: to get this right, they want to look after their son.

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Speaker 2: And this is a really big protective factor, the fact

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Speaker 2: that both parents, even though they're not living in the

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Speaker 2: same household, want the best for their kids. But let's

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Speaker 2: bring this back a little bit, because, like I said,

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Speaker 2: lots of families are in a similar situation and there's

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Speaker 2: a separation and well, I guess, how would you say it?

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Speaker 2: Not not on the same page or not able to

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Speaker 2: execute the supposedly agreed upon parenting strategy with the same

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Speaker 2: amount of effectiveness from one household to the next.

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Speaker 4: Well, that happens in one house though, doesn't it. Yes,

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Speaker 4: we can have two parents living under the same roof. Yes,

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Speaker 4: aren't on the same page. So I think that the

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Speaker 4: things that we talk about can be applicable in many

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Speaker 4: different situations.

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Speaker 3: Like trying to work out who should be doing what chores.

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Speaker 4: Like that acuuming your office, like.

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Speaker 2: The expectations on children for developmentally appropriate tasks.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so let's bring this back down. We've got we've

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Speaker 3: got one house that is so very different. How do

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Speaker 3: we manage it?

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Speaker 2: And where does the child find the truth that in

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Speaker 2: this case a young teenage boy needs like, how do

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Speaker 2: you co parent? Assuming there's no malice. I think we've

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Speaker 2: got to look at the foundations first. And what I

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Speaker 2: really like about this letter, and what I can hear

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Speaker 2: this in this email, is that we've got two parents

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Speaker 2: who still have a good relationship even though they're no

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Speaker 2: longer together, two parents who have a desire to make

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Speaker 2: it work. And the other thing that came out in

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Speaker 2: the email is that mum has majority care for her son.

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Speaker 2: So a few years ago I wrote an article about

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Speaker 2: what I call the seven seas seven not the seven

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Speaker 2: seas that you say along, because that would be very funny,

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Speaker 2: but rather the seven seas of separation and divorce.

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Speaker 4: But there are seven seeds that you say along.

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Speaker 2: I don't actually know how many people talk about the

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Speaker 2: seven seas, but these are seven seeds of separation and divorce.

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Speaker 3: Even your alliteration, and if you.

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Speaker 2: Can say along the seven seas, well, I just like

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Speaker 2: it when things work like that.

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Speaker 3: So let's go through it to box everything, don't you.

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Speaker 2: I just in a box seven things that start with

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Speaker 2: see how hard can it be?

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Speaker 3: I'll see what I did.

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Speaker 1: Then.

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Speaker 2: I'm a poet, and I didn't even realize I could

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Speaker 2: rhyme like that, so funny. All right, what's your seven seas?

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Speaker 2: First C is closeness to the extent possible. You're going

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Speaker 2: to co parent more effectively if you live close by,

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Speaker 2: Like it's it's just good for the kids to not

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Speaker 2: have to Well.

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Speaker 4: They're not going into completely different environments. They're in the

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Speaker 4: same neighborhood, right, go the same.

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Speaker 2: Part, extra correcter activities, friends, friends, school, all that sort

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Speaker 2: of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Try and stay nearby.

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Speaker 2: That's the This is one of the foundational things that

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Speaker 2: I'd be worried about now. Obviously, Die is not asking

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Speaker 2: about are we living close enough together? It's more about

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Speaker 2: how do I help my ex to raise our sun

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Speaker 2: safely and healthily. But these seven seas all tie in

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Speaker 2: to getting the foundations right, so then we can worry

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Speaker 2: about the parenting stuff next. So the second of the

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Speaker 2: seven seas is the Atlantic. I'm just kidding, it's caregiving.

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Speaker 2: Children and parents do better when parenting is shared. They

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Speaker 2: actually do. And so if dad is only getting his

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Speaker 2: son on weekends and holidays and Mum's doing the daily grind,

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Speaker 2: then dissatisfaction and resentment are going to build. And that's

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Speaker 2: pretty much what's going on for Die. What we didn't

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Speaker 2: read that from the email was that fourteen year old

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Speaker 2: son is staying up all night gaming.

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Speaker 3: There are no boundaries. It's like Disneyland dad, and so

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Speaker 3: Sun starts.

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Speaker 2: To think Mum's no fun and so the relationship there

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Speaker 2: can be damaged while dad's the party guy who lets

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Speaker 2: me do whatever I want. So we've got closeness staying nearby, caregiving,

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Speaker 2: make sure that it's shared. But it's got to that's

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Speaker 2: where you've got to be able to work together and

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Speaker 2: get things right. If you can't, we've got to look

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Speaker 2: at other things. Next, we've got to keep the conflict down.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like that's happening here, but it's so important

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Speaker 2: that we speak positively about one another, particularly when we're

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Speaker 2: talking to the kids. The next sear is change. Kids

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Speaker 2: don't respond to this kind of change well, it's really

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Speaker 2: really hard, so they need plenty of transition time. The

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Speaker 2: next is cash. If one house is swimming in and

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Speaker 2: the other house is not, which often happens, Unequal living

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Speaker 2: standards can can really make things awkward. Then we've got communication.

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Speaker 2: We've got to be able to communicate really well. And

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Speaker 2: the final seat of separation, divorce is an unfortunate reality,

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Speaker 2: and that's court and coming up with agreements that are

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Speaker 2: court mandated so that everyone can be safe. Now, that's

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Speaker 2: the foundational underpinning for how we move to the next level,

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Speaker 2: which responds to diees questions around helping a husband who's

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Speaker 2: not fulfilling his parential obligations to get on the right

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Speaker 2: page or at least to improve the way's parenting.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about that next.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Famili's podcast.

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Speaker 4: For a happier family, Try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 4: a happy family doesn't just happen.

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Speaker 2: Details at happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers now and today we're

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Speaker 4: hopefully answering die'es questions. She's got a doozy today.

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Speaker 2: So how do we get both houses operating in sync?

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Speaker 2: Or how do we help our children to manage when

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Speaker 2: they don't? Oh, by the way, those seven seeds of

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Speaker 2: separation and divorce will link to that article in the

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Speaker 2: show notes so that you can have a much closer

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Speaker 2: look at that if it's applicable to you.

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Speaker 3: So when I look at this letter.

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Speaker 2: As I've already said, the protective factors are there, but

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Speaker 2: there's also some risk factors, and that's in attention. You

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Speaker 2: might even say the neglect on Dad's part, and he's

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Speaker 2: well intended. It's not malicious. He just doesn't seem to

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Speaker 2: have the capacity to look after himself, let alone look

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Speaker 2: after his son. And kids need safe, predictable parents and

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Speaker 2: role models. If your child is in the care of

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Speaker 2: an adult, that adult has to be able to look

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Speaker 2: after them. If they can't, we need to have some

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Speaker 2: really hard conversations, like I don't think there's an easy

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Speaker 2: way through this, but there are some creative ways through it.

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Speaker 2: So let's just be really emphatic about a couple of things.

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Speaker 2: First of all, in life, there are there are optional relationships,

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Speaker 2: and there are non optional relationships. And the people that

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Speaker 2: you live with, the people that you're related to, the

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Speaker 2: people that you come into contact with consistently, mainly for

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Speaker 2: biological reasons, they're primarily non optional. Now, it's true that

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Speaker 2: every relationship ultimately is optional, but we know from decades

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Speaker 2: of research that our kids have got to be connected

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Speaker 2: to their kids. So I'm going to say that divorced

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Speaker 2: dad is still a non optional relationship so long as

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Speaker 2: he's safe, so long as he's non abusive, so long

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Speaker 2: as the child is not going to be neglected and

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Speaker 2: harmed by being in this presence. So if that relationship

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Speaker 2: is non optional, what we've got to do is try

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Speaker 2: to find ways that a child can have time with

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Speaker 2: that parent in ways that work for the whole family.

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Speaker 4: And I guess if you think about what the objective is,

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Speaker 4: is it so that you can have time out? Is

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Speaker 4: that why you send your child over to dad's place.

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Speaker 4: Is it because you want your child to have a

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Speaker 4: relationship with dad? And if that's the answer, then it's

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Speaker 4: a totally different comp that we can have ross all

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Speaker 4: of a sudden, we can actually think outside the box.

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Speaker 4: I hear so much compassion and what she's saying, there's

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Speaker 4: an acknowledgment that Dad is really trying, but he just

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Speaker 4: can't do what we're asking of him.

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Speaker 3: You know what I'm worried about when I hear that.

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Speaker 2: Though I know that I want to help die, but

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the pressure that looking after the son

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Speaker 2: is having on Dad. If he's got these mental health

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Speaker 2: challenges and he knows he's not measuring up, he knows

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Speaker 2: he's actually failing and neglecting his son. What's that doing

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Speaker 2: to him? So I agree with you if it's not

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Speaker 2: about getting your own respite, and let's face it, it's

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Speaker 2: nice to have a bit of respite. But if it's

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Speaker 2: not about that, if it's about building the relationship, what

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Speaker 2: other ways can we develop the relationship without putting our

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Speaker 2: sign into a potentially neglectful or even unsafe situation.

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Speaker 4: I just had a random idea as I was reading

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Speaker 4: out you know, Die's concerns, and it just kind of

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Speaker 4: occurred to me that if Dad's not capable of doing it,

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Speaker 4: and there's this beautiful, amicable relationship, maybe Dad has a

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Speaker 4: sleepover instead of the son having a sleepover. If there's

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Speaker 4: a spare room, can Dad come and stay so that

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Speaker 4: he gets time with his son in a safe environment.

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Speaker 4: He doesn't have the main responsibility of taking care of

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Speaker 4: the son, but mom still can kind of take a

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Speaker 4: breather because she doesn't have to be one percent on.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's something I read an article a while back,

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Speaker 2: and I've been looking into this a little bit when

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Speaker 2: I've talked to families in these situations. I can't remember

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Speaker 2: exactly what it's called, but it's something it has something

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Speaker 2: to do with like nested parenting or what it basically

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Speaker 2: is is you treat the family home as the nest

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Speaker 2: that the parents fly away from and return to, and

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Speaker 2: so therefore the kids have that stability at all times.

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Speaker 2: The kids don't leave home, but the parents swap use

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Speaker 2: of the home. So maybe mum has the master bedroom

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Speaker 2: that's always her space, and dad comes in on the

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Speaker 2: weekends and he stays in the rumpest room or in

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Speaker 2: the spare room or whatever, and he has the care

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Speaker 2: of the kids while Mum, well, maybe she's got a

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Speaker 2: unit house down the road or something like that where

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Speaker 2: she gets to have her time out, or perhaps she

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Speaker 2: just lives her life in a different part of the

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Speaker 2: house when dad's around. Now, Now that takes the relationship

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Speaker 2: to a whole another level, but that's kind of I

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Speaker 2: guess that's an extension of what you're talking about.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and obviously not going to work for everyone. It

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Speaker 4: isn't going to work for everyone. Totally understand that.

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Speaker 2: But just don't want to be x snooping around in

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Speaker 2: your drawers to find out what you've been up to

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Speaker 2: while they're not there.

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Speaker 4: No, but I just I'm listening to her heart and

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Speaker 4: knowing that, you know, it's so important for her son

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Speaker 4: to have a relationship with his dad, but there's just

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Speaker 4: an acknowledgment that he doesn't have the same capacities.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Number one, This means that the rules of the house

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Speaker 4: remain the rules of the house, where the dad's there

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Speaker 4: or not. There are certain rules that are are enforced. However,

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Speaker 4: just like when your kids have a sleepover, you might

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Speaker 4: relax the rules a little bit. Yeah, okay, you can

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Speaker 4: do your video games till ten o'clock tonight. We normally

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Speaker 4: shut everything down by eight thirty or whatever, but dad's

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Speaker 4: here and you guys can have a play. But it's

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Speaker 4: not that the rules are being literally obliterated. It's just

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Speaker 4: an acknowledgement that tonight we can be a little bit

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Speaker 4: more relaxed about them.

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Speaker 2: I think, if I was to sum all of this up,

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Speaker 2: children need a relationship with both biological parents if it's

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Speaker 2: possible and safe, and safety is the critical thing. If

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Speaker 2: there's going to be any damage to the child because

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Speaker 2: of different boundaries or a lack of boundaries.

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Speaker 4: Or more tension as a result.

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Speaker 2: Then we need to negotiate and navigate things accordingly, but

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Speaker 2: I also think it's worth highlighting even though there is

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Speaker 2: an ideal parenting style, and I'm very clear about that,

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Speaker 2: and the research is as well, that doesn't mean that

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Speaker 2: somebody who doesn't quite fit the ideal can't still do

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Speaker 2: a good enough job raising their kids, especially if they

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Speaker 2: only have part time occasional care. And I think my

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Speaker 2: final message would be this could just be a question

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Speaker 2: of control. Now, if it was only a five year

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Speaker 2: old or a nine year old, i'd feel differently, but

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Speaker 2: we're talking about a fourteen year old.

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Speaker 3: In this situation.

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Speaker 2: If your kids are younger, we've got genuine issues of neglect,

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Speaker 2: and therefore appropriate measures need to be taken to keep

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Speaker 2: kids safe, which might mean restricting dad's access or coming

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Speaker 2: up with other creative ways for the child to be

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Speaker 2: involved in dad's life, because we don't want to remove

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Speaker 2: him entirely. That's going to take a terrible toll on

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Speaker 2: dad's mental health, and it's bad for the kids. We

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Speaker 2: want to have them together. We've just got to find

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Speaker 2: a good way to navigate it. In this case, we've

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Speaker 2: got a fourteen year old, and I'm actually kind of thinking,

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Speaker 2: so long as he's not coming home with toxic messages.

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Speaker 2: As so long as there are some guidelines, some boundaries,

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Speaker 2: and we know that he's not being harmed, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to suggest that.

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Speaker 3: It could also be a question of control when it

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Speaker 3: comes to older kids.

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Speaker 4: Well, we touched on this a little bit in yesterday's podcast.

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Speaker 4: Is this acknowledgement that it can be really really hard

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Speaker 4: to let go?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and just.

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Speaker 4: That question around, is what's happening in Dad's home destructive

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Speaker 4: or is it actually going to harm their son? Or

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Speaker 4: is it just an acknowledgment that in different homes there

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Speaker 4: are different rules.

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Speaker 3: It's happening a different way to what you'd like.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And as long as Maum is consistent with what

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Speaker 4: she does and Dad is consistent, which he clearly it's.

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Speaker 3: Consistent with his inconsistency.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there doesn't need to be any confusion. And it

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Speaker 4: really is about how we talk to our children. You know,

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Speaker 4: what happens in dad's home is up to Dad. He's

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Speaker 4: the rule maker in that home. But in our home,

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Speaker 4: these are our rules and this is what we do

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Speaker 4: in our home.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. One of my notes that I'd written down was

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Speaker 2: you've just got to talk talk with your son. Make

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Speaker 2: sure that your son understands what's going on in an

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Speaker 2: appropriate way, so that we're not making it out to

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Speaker 2: be that dad's suddenly the demon dad and Mum's the wonderful,

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Speaker 2: angelic mum getting it all right to be. We want

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Speaker 2: to be charitable, which is definitely coming across in the email,

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Speaker 2: So to take our message if he's safe, let it go,

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Speaker 2: because what's worse fighting about it pulling your child away

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Speaker 2: from dad or just recognizing that there are certain limits

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Speaker 2: to how effective a dad can do this and this

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Speaker 2: is as good as it's going to get.

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Speaker 4: And maybe I guess a second take home would be

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Speaker 4: just an acknowledgment that there isn't one way to do things.

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Speaker 4: Maybe looking outside the box, yeah, and seeing if there's

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Speaker 4: another way that you can set everybody up for success.

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Speaker 2: Sleepovers, hanging out a hotel room, I mean, that's kind of.

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Speaker 4: Camping would actually be awesome because there's no games now

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Speaker 4: when when you're.

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Speaker 3: Eating probably not well. It depends on whether you've got

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Speaker 3: five g or not.

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Speaker 2: We really hope that you've enjoyed this podcast and it's

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Speaker 2: been helpful, especially if you're in one of these kinds

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Speaker 2: of very tricky situations. The Happy Famili's podcast is produced

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Speaker 2: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our

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Speaker 2: executive producer and if you'd like more info about making

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Speaker 2: your family happier, because a happy family doesn't just happen,

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Speaker 2: please visit us at happy families dot com dot au