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Speaker 1: You might recall through the estimates there was some serious

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Speaker 1: concerns raised about staffing numbers within the Northern Territory's correctional facilities.

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Speaker 1: Justice Minister Chancey Pak was unable to tell estimates how

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Speaker 1: many positions within prisons were unfilled. That same hearing revealed

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Speaker 1: that attrition within corrections had hit ten percent and workers

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Speaker 1: within the department had racked up thirteen million dollars in

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Speaker 1: overtime to make up for that short staffing. Now joining

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Speaker 1: me in the studio this morning to talk about the

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Speaker 1: situation is the Northern Territory Correctional Services Commissioner Matthew Varley.

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Speaker 1: Good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Morning, Katie.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time this morning. Now, Commissioner,

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Speaker 1: are you able to tell us how many staff short

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Speaker 1: are we right now across the Northern Territory within our

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Speaker 1: correctional facilities?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I want to be really clear on that.

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Speaker 3: We've said right from the get going, since I've become Commissioner,

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Speaker 3: I've been talking to staff and listening to their concerns.

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Speaker 3: We absolutely are short staffed in the prisons and there's

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Speaker 3: more work for us to do in terms of recruitment,

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Speaker 3: which I'll get to in a moment. But you know,

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Speaker 3: we work to a rolling our ridge of staff over

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Speaker 3: time each financial year. And the challenge we've got is

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Speaker 3: how our roster is built every day in the prisons.

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Speaker 3: It's a demand based model and obviously it fluctuates based

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Speaker 3: on prison and numbers.

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Speaker 2: And you know, for example, we build into that additional.

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Speaker 3: Work that we have to forecast each day, like hospital escorts,

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Speaker 3: escorts to court, et cetera, et cetera. So the numbers

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Speaker 3: of prison officers that we need every day on the

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Speaker 3: roster does change. The question I was asked last week

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Speaker 3: is how many vacant positions do we have?

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: And what I was trying to explain and work through

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Speaker 3: is the fact that we're working to a recruitment target

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Speaker 3: and a number of vacancies over an average period of time.

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Speaker 3: It's a complex operating model. I get that. But you know,

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Speaker 3: the Union has said to me quite clearly that they're

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Speaker 3: short staffed.

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Speaker 2: I agree. We're probably in the order of you know.

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Speaker 3: Sixty odd staff that I'm looking to recruit over the

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Speaker 3: next twelve months alone. If I can do more rastly,

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Speaker 3: I want to.

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Speaker 1: So how come that number wasn't provided last week? Throughout estimates.

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Speaker 3: Well, what I was trying to explain at estimates and

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Speaker 3: the advice I'd given to the minister, is that we're

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Speaker 3: we're working to work out our attrition over time. We're

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Speaker 3: working to work out how many our officers, how many

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Speaker 3: roster slots we need to fill.

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Speaker 2: Plus we're working on trying.

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Speaker 3: To trade off a very high rate of overtime, there's

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Speaker 3: no doubt about that against additional staff positions. Look, the

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Speaker 3: overtime number is high, there's no doubt about that, and

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Speaker 3: it was high last year too. My point has been

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Speaker 3: and from the time I started with the union, saying,

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Speaker 3: if we can bring that overtime figured down through recruiting

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Speaker 3: more staff and putting more people onto the roster, we should.

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Speaker 3: But it's an inexact science because the roster demands do change.

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Speaker 1: It does sound incredibly high, though, I mean, thirteen million

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Speaker 1: dollars in overtime is an astronomical figure.

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Speaker 3: It's very high, there's no doubt about that, and we

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Speaker 3: want it to be lower. What that means is my

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Speaker 3: officers in the prisons every day are working too many

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Speaker 3: long hours, extra shifts. And I've heard that loud and

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Speaker 3: loud and clear from our troops I guess the point is,

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Speaker 3: this is not a short term problem in the making.

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Speaker 3: This is a challenging situation that has arisen over time.

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Speaker 3: We've got rising prison numbers over the last five years,

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Speaker 3: and we've got an attrition rate which we just haven't

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Speaker 3: been able to match with recruitment. As we know, you know,

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Speaker 3: unemployment is at decades low. You know, we've tried our

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Speaker 3: best over the last couple of years to recruit as

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Speaker 3: many offices as we can.

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Speaker 2: It's just a tough market.

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Speaker 1: How I mean, how difficult does it make it? Though?

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Speaker 1: In terms of the corrections officers that are there, in

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Speaker 1: terms of doing their daily jobs, are there situations where

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Speaker 1: they're unsafe?

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Speaker 3: I guess my point is I have every confidence that

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Speaker 3: our officers are well trained and they do their best.

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Speaker 3: We make sure that our officers have the equipment that

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Speaker 3: they need, in the training that they need, and I

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Speaker 3: back their judgment. I guess in terms of operational decisions

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Speaker 3: every day in the prison, yes, they're under pressure, There's

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Speaker 3: no doubt about that. I've been quite upfront when I

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Speaker 3: speak to them about that, and that's why I want

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Speaker 3: to recruit more staff in the year a head. Do

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Speaker 3: I want my officers working thirteen million dollars worth of

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Speaker 3: overtime every year. Absolutely not, but we need to make

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Speaker 3: sure we can ramp up that recruitment and certainly that's

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Speaker 3: what I'm focused on in the next four months.

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Speaker 1: Union delegates have said that corrections is dysfunctional at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Is that the case?

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Speaker 3: Look, I heard that Katie and Phil Tilbrook and I

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Speaker 3: have a very good working relationship. I meet with him

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Speaker 3: probably almost every week, and we talk on the phone often.

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Speaker 3: But this is one thing I want to disagree with

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Speaker 3: Phil on because my argument is, yes, there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of challenges we have in terms of correctional operations and

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Speaker 3: some of the pressures I've just described, But to say

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Speaker 3: it's dysfunctional, in my view, I guess diminishes the work

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Speaker 3: that our officers are doing every day. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: of good work that goes on in our correction system.

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Speaker 3: Our officers do a great job under difficult circumstances, and

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Speaker 3: I think they deserve better.

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Speaker 1: Commissioner, what work is going to be happening, you know,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to trying to recruit staff, because as

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Speaker 1: you've said, there's obviously a lot of them having to

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Speaker 1: do over time, we know that there is you know,

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Speaker 1: those pain and conditions have a big impact. I'm assuming that.

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Speaker 1: You know, if we're realistically wanting to try and attract

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Speaker 1: people from other states to fill these jobs, or wanting

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Speaker 1: to try and track people into these jobs, they need

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Speaker 1: to actually be paid well and they need to feel

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Speaker 1: as though those conditions are good.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 3: Look, i'd say our officers have some good terms and conditions.

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Speaker 3: There's obviously an enterprise bargaining process underway at the moment,

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Speaker 3: and I can't comment on wages policy and some of

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Speaker 3: the claims that our officials and unions are working through.

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Speaker 3: What I would say though, is that being a corrections

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Speaker 3: officer is in the NT is a great job.

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Speaker 2: It's a secure job, it pays well.

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Speaker 3: It's you know, you can be a trainee correctional officer

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Speaker 3: graduating from our course and be straight away on a

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Speaker 3: package over eighty thousand dollars a year, and it has

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Speaker 3: an opportunity to do some remarkable work, you know, rehabilitating

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Speaker 3: offenders and making sure they're you know, got a new

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Speaker 3: start when they exit the prison system. But recruitment is tough, Katie,

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Speaker 3: You know, why do you reckon? It's so hard, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'll give you an example. Over the last three years,

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Speaker 3: we've taken fourteen trainee intakes into our system, nine of

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Speaker 3: those focused on ALIS, four in Darwin and one combined course.

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Speaker 3: With one thy and twenty four applications, we get down

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Speaker 3: to about one hundred and eighty three suitable candidates once

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Speaker 3: we go through gateways, fitness testing, literacy and numeracy, and

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Speaker 3: other things like interviews, and ultimately we had one hundred

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Speaker 3: and thirty one hundred and forty odd commenced, so not

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Speaker 3: everyone who gets through even takes up the job. We've

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Speaker 3: recruited fifty five offices this year. I think we recruited

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Speaker 3: around about I'm going to say forty five forty seven

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Speaker 3: last year.

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Speaker 2: We need to do more, There's no doubt about that.

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Speaker 3: And so one of the first things I asked my

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Speaker 3: team to do when I took over was to say, right,

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Speaker 3: what can we do to re invigorate our recruitment campaigns.

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Speaker 2: And we've changed the way we do that.

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Speaker 3: Instead of running a defined campaign for a particular period

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Speaker 3: of time, we're now open on a rolling basis.

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Speaker 2: You can apply anytime you like.

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Speaker 3: We're rolling new ads around the country, we're fishing in

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Speaker 3: other people's ponds.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely recruit them from other correctional systems well.

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Speaker 2: And that's the point, Katie.

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Speaker 3: We do take on experience corrections officers from other jurisdictions,

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Speaker 3: and we've been reasonably successful successful at that. We've got

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Speaker 3: more to do, but I'd like to see us feel,

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Speaker 3: you know, three, maybe four classes easily in.

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Speaker 2: The next year.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds like we probably need to as well.

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Speaker 1: If those attrition rates are as high as ten percent.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's an awful lot of correctional offices leaving

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Speaker 1: every year.

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Speaker 2: It is, it's about fifty.

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Speaker 3: We have a workforce of around five hundred and fifty

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Speaker 3: odd correctional officers. Mind you, we have another workforce of

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Speaker 3: about two hundred and fifty other personnel in the organization

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: These are our community based probation and.

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Speaker 3: Prole officers, some of our specialist clinicians, and our admin

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Speaker 3: support stuff. But I asked the attrition rate when I arrived,

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Speaker 3: and that turns out to be around about eight percent

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Speaker 3: over the last five years on average, and yes, ten

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Speaker 3: percent this year is high, and you know, I'm concerned

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Speaker 3: about that. I'm listening to staff express their concerns about,

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Speaker 3: you know, the system what needs changing, and of course

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Speaker 3: the pressure that they're under. I want to that rate

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Speaker 3: come down obviously, you know, we'll work hard.

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Speaker 2: To address that.

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Speaker 1: Now, just talk me through because I know that one

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Speaker 1: of the big concerns obviously, you know, when the correctional

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Speaker 1: staffing numbers aren't as high as they need to be,

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Speaker 1: is that some of those programs that are delivered within

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Speaker 1: those correctional services we're within those correctional services facilities, don't

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Speaker 1: happen our prisoners at the moment able to undertake different

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Speaker 1: programs which might actually help them with rehabilitation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they are, and we continue to do a few

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Speaker 3: things there, Katie.

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Speaker 2: We have prisoners engaged in an employment.

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Speaker 3: You know, they're out doing you know, some of our

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Speaker 3: open low rated prisoners are out doing you know, work

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Speaker 3: in the community.

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Speaker 2: Some of them have you know.

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Speaker 3: Jobs, particularly at our Berkley and Datchelor work camps, but

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Speaker 3: here in Darwin and Nalla Springs as well. We have

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Speaker 3: community service work programs where our prisoners are out you know,

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Speaker 3: working to mow pensioners lawns and do other things in

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Speaker 3: the community, which is really good work. And we have

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Speaker 3: a whole range of prisoners engaged in education and training

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Speaker 3: in our industries and our training division. So you know,

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Speaker 3: just to give you a sense, around eight hundred prisoners

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Speaker 3: last year completed, you know, various qualifications through a partnership

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Speaker 3: that we have with the Bachelor Institute. You know, they

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Speaker 3: do quals in everything from construction skills through to forklift,

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Speaker 3: through to business. We even have a few students engaged

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Speaker 3: in higher education through university.

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Speaker 1: So there's no there has been no limitations to people

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Speaker 1: being able to do programs based on staffing.

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Speaker 3: Well, I would say is that we absolutely have felt

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Speaker 3: the pressure there because as we've had to manage rising

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Speaker 3: prison numbers and those staffing pressures. Yes, there have been

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Speaker 3: occasions where we've had to reduce or limit classes or

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Speaker 3: in some cases we haven't had enough staff to make

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Speaker 3: sure our prisoners are getting out to work. Obviously that's

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Speaker 3: something that my superintendents and their teams managed daily and

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Speaker 3: it's a difficult balance. But obviously as we manage that

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Speaker 3: recruitment try and build back up those numbers, we'll see

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Speaker 3: those stats improved.

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Speaker 1: Commissioner, I did just get a message from well from

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Speaker 1: the former Independent Member for Nelson, Jerry Wood, a very

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Speaker 1: passionate listener and former politician wondering is the fruit and

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Speaker 1: veg garden and fruit and vege and the bakery is

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Speaker 1: still going at the moment.

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Speaker 2: We have a horticulture section at Darwin.

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Speaker 3: We have a bakery down in Alice Springs. I think

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Speaker 3: he's probably referring to I don't know, Jerry, but there

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Speaker 3: was a number of industry workshops, if you like, built

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Speaker 3: at both prisons over time. Now the bakery, as you

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Speaker 3: heard in estimates last week, has been closed.

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Speaker 2: It's been closed for a while. There are a number

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Speaker 2: of reasons about that.

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Speaker 3: But I've been very vocal with the minister, and the

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Speaker 3: Minister has been very supportive with me, saying we need

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Speaker 3: to do more to recruit specialized staff with industry skills

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Speaker 3: so we can reopen some of those particular workshops.

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Speaker 1: So what do you reckon? I mean, how quickly do

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Speaker 1: you think that you could get things like that back

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Speaker 1: up and running.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, I guess Katie. I'm ambitious.

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Speaker 3: I know I've got a huge task ahead, but this

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Speaker 3: is part of a twelve to three year you know,

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Speaker 3: change plan that we're rolling out for corrections. Now, obviously

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Speaker 3: we're speaking about recruitment. I want to get as many

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Speaker 3: people through the door as I can in the next

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Speaker 3: six to twelve months. I'm going to be pushing hard

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Speaker 3: to recruit more before Christmas, but it's going to be

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Speaker 3: a tough gig and we've got a lot of challenges

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Speaker 3: in terms of getting those numbers. As I said, you

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Speaker 3: know the statistics that we're operating at about a thirteen

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Speaker 3: percent to fifteen percent strike rate of getting successful candidates

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Speaker 3: through the door.

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Speaker 2: So I'm very focused.

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Speaker 3: On making sure that our industries and our workshops are

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Speaker 3: back up and running. However, you've got to make sure

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Speaker 3: that we properly staff the rosters for the safety and

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Speaker 3: security of the prisons and my staff first and well,

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Speaker 3: it's a careful, delicate balance.

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Speaker 1: So by the sounds of thing things, I mean that

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Speaker 1: recruitment and retention of staff, it is a really big

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Speaker 1: issue right now. And while you know you are doing

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Speaker 1: everything you can to try and manage it and to

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Speaker 1: get more staff in there so those levels are higher,

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Speaker 1: it is indeed having an impact on being able to

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Speaker 1: deliver some of those programs and ensuring that you know

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Speaker 1: the safety of your staff as well.

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Speaker 2: Look, I'm not shy about that.

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Speaker 3: There's no doubt we've got a challenge of recruitment and

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Speaker 3: staffing against the backdrop of rising prisoner numbers. We have

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Speaker 3: about two to three hundred more prisoners in the system

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Speaker 3: than only a couple of years ago, right, So that

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Speaker 3: pressure is a delicate challenge that we've got to face. However,

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Speaker 3: I'm very focused on making sure we've got the safety

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Speaker 3: and security of my staff first. The safety and security

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Speaker 3: of our prisons and prisoners obviously as a primary consideration.

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Speaker 2: But you know, let's not take away from.

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Speaker 3: The good work that our officers are doing in the

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Speaker 3: prisons every day to deliver programs in education. As I said,

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Speaker 3: we've got more than eight hundred students in various training

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Speaker 3: calls throughout the course, throughout the course of the year.

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Speaker 3: Next week I'm going down to Alice Springs for a

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Speaker 3: prisoner graduation ceremony at the Bachelor Institute. And we've got

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Speaker 3: our community service work programs out in the field doing

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Speaker 3: good work in the community. Do I want to do more, absolutely,

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Speaker 3: but there's a bit of recruitment.

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Speaker 2: To do ahead.

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Speaker 1: How many prisoners do we have in our correctional facilities

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Speaker 1: at the moment.

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Speaker 3: Today, we're at one nine hundred and twenty. Katie, look

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Speaker 3: that's a difficult, challenging number. It's a big population. It's

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Speaker 3: something that has risen over the last few years, but

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Speaker 3: that's not uncommon across the system in the rest of

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Speaker 3: the country as well.

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Speaker 1: And look, I know it's such a it is a

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Speaker 1: really difficult you know, it's a difficult portfolio. I guess

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Speaker 1: when outsiders are looking in, a lot of us have

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Speaker 1: not had much interaction with the corrections system, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of us probably don't know a huge amount about

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Speaker 1: what goes on inside those correctional facilities. But I guess

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Speaker 1: what we all sort of want to make sure of,

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Speaker 1: the same as what we used to discuss and still

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Speaker 1: continue to when it comes to youth detention as well,

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Speaker 1: is that when prisoners do go into those correctional facilities,

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Speaker 1: that if they are getting out, that they come out

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Speaker 1: better people, and that they're able to be involved in

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Speaker 1: those programs and different rehabilitation so that they can hopefully

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Speaker 1: come out better people with other prospects.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and that's when I talk to my staff. They

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Speaker 3: tell me that's why they join corrections, because that's the

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Speaker 3: sort of work they want to do to rehabilitate people's

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Speaker 3: life and so that people have a better shot at

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Speaker 3: getting back on track when they get out into the community.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously we.

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Speaker 3: Have you know, a very dedicated prison team that works

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Speaker 3: hard on that, as I said, through industries, training, qualifications,

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Speaker 3: and therapeutic programs around behavioral change and you know, equipping

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Speaker 3: people with the skills around managing their emotions and some

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Speaker 3: of the challenges that brought them into prison in the

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Speaker 3: first place. Then, of course we go out into the

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Speaker 3: community and you know, we have almost let's say, up

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Speaker 3: to one thousand offenders at any one time on a

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Speaker 3: parole or supervision order in the community, and we have

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Speaker 3: a very dedicated group of expert probation and parole officers

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Speaker 3: out there in the community every day helping people succeed

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Speaker 3: and get back on track.

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Speaker 1: We are going to have to wrap up now, Commissioner.

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Speaker 1: I know you have just been in the role for

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Speaker 1: three months now, As I understand, it's certainly a busy

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Speaker 1: job to step into. What are you hoping to achieve

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Speaker 1: in your time as the commissioner.

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Speaker 3: Look, obviously we've talked about recruitment today, Katie, but you

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Speaker 3: know we've been given an opportunity with government funding now

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Speaker 3: for a three year reform program and a big part

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Speaker 3: of that is going to be about improving our workforce outcomes,

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Speaker 3: making sure we've got better health and rehabilitation outcomes for prisoners,

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Speaker 3: managing our systems and our processes to develop a more

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Speaker 3: modern and capable correction service, and also looking at our

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Speaker 3: infrastructure needs over the long term. So we're about to

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Speaker 3: roll out a very large reform change program over the

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Speaker 3: next couple of years. I'm certainly focused on making sure

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Speaker 3: that the NTCS is as capable and fit for purpose

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Speaker 3: and ready for the future as it can be. And

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty excited that we've got a really great team

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Speaker 3: and I've got good support from staff and the unions

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Speaker 3: as well to make that change well.

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory Correctional Services Commissioner Matthew Varley, appreciate your time

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Speaker 1: this morning. Thanks very much for coming in.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Caddie all the best.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.