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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast. My name is doctor

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Speaker 1: Justin Colson. Thank you so much for joining in. We've

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Speaker 1: just commenced a series of in depth interviews.

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Speaker 2: Where I speak to guests, we learn, we have some fun.

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Speaker 1: And we get into the nitty gritty of what can

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Speaker 1: make parenting absolutely incredible and make families flourish well. Today's

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Speaker 1: guest is Professor Wendy Rolnick, a mother, an author, and

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Speaker 1: we're kind of kindred spirits and that we both work

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Speaker 1: to help build happy families and our area of research

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Speaker 1: is very very closely aligned. Professor Rolnick's book The Psychology

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Speaker 1: of Parental Control is one of my favorites, and Wendy

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Speaker 1: is based out of the psychology department of Clark University

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Speaker 1: in Massachusetts. She's taught definitely three decades. So I began

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Speaker 1: by asking her about what family life looks like for her.

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Speaker 3: Family wise, I have two grown children, two daughters. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I've been married for thirty five years and parenting for thirty.

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Speaker 1: Wendy we met at a conference, I think it was

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Speaker 1: about three or four years ago.

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Speaker 2: It was in British Columbia.

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Speaker 1: We were saying at this gorgeous hotel on the water

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Speaker 1: in Victoria, and I think it was about twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: You and I had a great conversation about our mutual

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Speaker 1: interest in raising happy families, and we both have a

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Speaker 1: very strong interest in a theory in psychology known as

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Speaker 1: self determination theory, and it's something that I've really built.

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Speaker 2: Much of what I share with parents around.

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Speaker 1: You've done a recent study built on self determination theory,

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Speaker 1: and you found that parents who were really doing well

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Speaker 1: with their families. In fact, you looked at families across

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Speaker 1: the board, so you weren't sort of saying, well, these

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Speaker 1: ones are doing well and these ones aren't. You just

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Speaker 1: got random families to come into the lab and fill

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Speaker 1: in some surveys and then go away and do some things.

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Speaker 1: You got them to do a handful of things, and

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Speaker 1: in particularly, you found that when they did three things successfully,

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Speaker 1: their families were happier and their children are more likely

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Speaker 1: to thrive. So I wonder if you can step me

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Speaker 1: through what those three things were and what they actually

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Speaker 1: look like in practice from an applied you know, this

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Speaker 1: is what parents need to do to do these three things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we've actually entered into the world of intervention, so

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Speaker 3: I can tell you about how we've tried to help

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Speaker 3: people move toward these three things. But yes, the three

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Speaker 3: things are. One is support for autonomy. That is helping

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Speaker 3: children to feel that they are kind of like behind

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Speaker 3: their actions, they're the owner of their actions. They're not

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Speaker 3: being pushed and coerced. Because we know that when people

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Speaker 3: feel like they're being pushed and coerced, that they are

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Speaker 3: less happy and they're less likely to persevere in what

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Speaker 3: they're doing and be motivated and follow their passions. So

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Speaker 3: when you support autonomy and help children feel this way,

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Speaker 3: you can do a number of things. And we've looked

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Speaker 3: at different strategies that parents can use. So one is

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Speaker 3: that you It all kind of starts with taking children's perspectives,

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Speaker 3: thinking of where are they coming from, how are they

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Speaker 3: thinking about what they're doing, and trying to get into

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Speaker 3: their heads and understand their perspectives.

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Speaker 2: And that's really hard.

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Speaker 1: You get into the morning rush and the morning routine

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Speaker 1: and you've got to get the children out the door,

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Speaker 1: and everything's going.

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Speaker 2: A little bit crazy in Haywire, and the children are non.

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Speaker 1: Compliant, they don't want to get up and go to school,

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Speaker 1: and they're feeling miserable or a bit lousy, and we

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Speaker 1: don't tend to take their perspective in that moment because

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Speaker 1: we're also running late, and if we don't get out

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Speaker 1: the door on time, we're going to miss the lights

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Speaker 1: at the bottom of the street. And if we don't

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Speaker 1: get through those lights at exactly seven fourteen, that means

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Speaker 1: that we're going to be stuck until seven twenty and

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Speaker 1: then we're going to get the peak hour traffic that's

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Speaker 1: six minutes is you know, it makes all the difference,

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Speaker 1: and so have we feel a lot of pressure ourselves,

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Speaker 1: and we tend to transfer that into the family environment, right,

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Speaker 1: and then we take away their autonomy and start to

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Speaker 1: control them absolutely.

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Speaker 3: And we've done some studies exactly on this. Stress makes

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Speaker 3: it really hard to be autonomy supportive. But when you

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Speaker 3: think about it, if you can take the perspective of

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Speaker 3: the child and just give them the sense that you

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Speaker 3: understand where they're coming from, they're going to be much

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Speaker 3: more open to all the other things that you want

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Speaker 3: them to do. So if you can just say, I

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Speaker 3: understand that you'd much rather be listening to your iPad

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Speaker 3: and playing on it and not getting ready, and it

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Speaker 3: feels really pushy to for have me start do this,

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Speaker 3: you know telling you to do it. Now, they'll be

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Speaker 3: much more open to hearing well, but here's what we

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Speaker 3: need to do, And they hear you better when they

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Speaker 3: know that you TA can take their perspective, understand them,

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Speaker 3: and you're providing them a little bit of empathy for

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Speaker 3: where they're coming from.

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Speaker 2: I say this to parents all the time.

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Speaker 1: When you listen to a podcast or when you're sitting

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Speaker 1: in a room with somebody like you or I and

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Speaker 1: we're talking to you about that kind of thing, it

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Speaker 1: all makes sense, right. We think, oh, yeah, I'm supposed

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Speaker 1: to take a breath and just connect with their emotion

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Speaker 1: and say, well, you're really struggling and you just wish

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Speaker 1: that this didn't have to be this way, don't you

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Speaker 1: Like that makes sense when we're having this conversation. But

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Speaker 1: tomorrow morning, when somebody's going through it, that's the last

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Speaker 1: thing you want to do. Like, it's exactly the opposite

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Speaker 1: of what you want to do, because you're feeling the

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Speaker 1: stress and pressure when you want to get that full momentum,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to sort of put the brakes on

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Speaker 1: and sit down and hold the hand and look into

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Speaker 1: their eyes and say you're having a tough time this

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Speaker 1: morning on't you right?

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Speaker 3: Right? And so there are things you can do when

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Speaker 3: you're not in those very stressful moments that what might

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Speaker 3: make a difference for those stressful moments. So, for example,

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Speaker 3: if you're having this problem every morning, when there isn't

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Speaker 3: a problem going on and when it's a quiet time,

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Speaker 3: you can sit down together and talk this out. So

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Speaker 3: part of autonomy support is taking kids' perspectives. Part of

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Speaker 3: it is giving them choicest part of it is problem

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Speaker 3: solving together. And so you want to sit down and

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Speaker 3: problem solve together and say, you know, mornings have been

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Speaker 3: really rough. I know they're hard on you. I know

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Speaker 3: it stinks when you have to hear me nag you

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Speaker 3: in the morning. You just got up. Let's put our

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Speaker 3: heads together to figure out what we can do. What

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Speaker 3: are your thoughts. So a ton of support means getting

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Speaker 3: kids input into problems that you're having and problem solving together. So, yes,

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Speaker 3: it's true at that moment that might not work, but

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Speaker 3: if the child comes up with some great idea as well,

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Speaker 3: you could wake me up five minutes earlier, or you

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Speaker 3: could just knock at my door really quietly and let

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Speaker 3: me know it's time. So you come up with this together.

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Speaker 3: There Again, when you don't feel like somebody's yelling at

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Speaker 3: you and nagging at you and coming and imposing themselves

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Speaker 3: upon you, you're much more likely to understand, you know,

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Speaker 3: why you're doing it, and being this together and problem

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Speaker 3: solve together.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: We've got this. First thing is autonomy support. But there

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Speaker 1: are three of these. And by the way, I think

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Speaker 1: that at least for me, as I've watched how my

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Speaker 1: parenting has changed over the last couple of decades raising

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Speaker 1: my six kids, this for me is the lynchpin, like

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Speaker 1: stepping away from control and stepping towards supporting autonomy or

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Speaker 1: empowering our children to find the solutions that are inside

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Speaker 1: themsel to do well.

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Speaker 2: That seems to be it.

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Speaker 1: But there's two other things that you highlight that families

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Speaker 1: that do best also emphasize. And those two things are

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Speaker 1: structure and involvement. And in your research you found that

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Speaker 1: this leads to the best outcomes comparatively compared to families

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Speaker 1: that aren't doing this. So autonomy support, we've sort of

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Speaker 1: talked about that briefly. But what a structure and involvement

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Speaker 1: and how do they work?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So structure is really connected to having kids have

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Speaker 3: a sense of competence. So we put it into place

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Speaker 3: to help kids feel like they know how to succeed

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Speaker 3: in what you're asking them to do, or they know

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Speaker 3: how to succeed in the world. And so structure is

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Speaker 3: really the information you need to be successful. And what

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Speaker 3: you do is you set up the environment to increase

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Speaker 3: the probability that kids are going to feel competent. And

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Speaker 3: you can do that by having just really clear expectations,

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Speaker 3: this is what we need to be doing, this is

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Speaker 3: what I expect, and guidelines for how to do that

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Speaker 3: feedback about how you're doing. So if the you know

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Speaker 3: the job is to to clean your room, you know

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Speaker 3: what's expected, how often, what it means to clean your room,

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Speaker 3: You know what to do, so that then you can

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Speaker 3: children can plan their behavior and say, oh, I know,

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Speaker 3: I know how to be successful here, So that that's

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Speaker 3: really important. The trick is you want to connect that

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Speaker 3: with autonomy support. You don't want just to impose structure

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Speaker 3: on kids and say this is how we're doing it,

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Speaker 3: these are the rules, this is the schedule. Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: you've heard a lot during the pandemic about you have

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Speaker 3: to have a schedule but kids can have input into

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Speaker 3: that schedule and feel like you together you own some

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Speaker 3: of these guidelines and rules, and that's when it's they're

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Speaker 3: going to be both feeling competent, like this is what

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Speaker 3: I need to do, but also feeling I mean you

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Speaker 3: use the word empowered, which is a good word, that

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Speaker 3: you have some ownership of this and it's not just

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Speaker 3: something that's coming from above.

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Speaker 1: And so the odd da here from what I've written

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Speaker 1: in your research and other researchers who have played in

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Speaker 1: this area is ideally, as we create a sense of structure,

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Speaker 1: it's not just about the routine and the schedule.

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Speaker 2: It's actually it's about.

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Speaker 1: The way we have small wins in our lives doing

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Speaker 1: all of the things that matter. But the way that

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Speaker 1: we create the structure ideally will be in an autonomy

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Speaker 1: supportive way. So we'll sit down with our children and

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Speaker 1: say we have a little bit of a problem. You've

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Speaker 1: probably noticed this is happening in our evenings, this is

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Speaker 1: happening on our Saturday mornings or our sundays are just

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Speaker 1: not working. They're not getting the quality family time that

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Speaker 1: we want. What can we do together to make this work?

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Speaker 1: And then in a supportive non controlling way you develop

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Speaker 1: a sort of a sense of structure. Or you know,

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Speaker 1: we're paying all this money for piano lessons, but it

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Speaker 1: seems like you just don't really get excited about practicing

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Speaker 1: until twenty minutes before we have to run out the

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Speaker 1: door to see the teacher.

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Speaker 2: And this is not working.

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Speaker 1: So it's really about having these conversations and bringing the

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Speaker 1: children in so that they can solve their own problems

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Speaker 1: and create those structures and supports.

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Speaker 2: Is that how you're disc Yes.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's really well said. Sometimes when we describe this

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Speaker 3: to parents, they say, oh, well, what if they want

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Speaker 3: to get up at twelve, you know, twelve in the afternoon,

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Speaker 3: that's not acceptable. It's okay for you as a parent

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Speaker 3: to sort of have your guidelines within which you are working,

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Speaker 3: and you're able to say, well, this idea that you

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Speaker 3: came up with isn't quite going to work because blah

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Speaker 3: blah blah, but here's some guidelines within which we can

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Speaker 3: we can choose. You know, any time between eight and

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Speaker 3: ten is okay to walk the dog. But so what

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Speaker 3: what do you choose? And you give a reason for

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Speaker 3: why twelve o'clock's not going to work? So it doesn't

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Speaker 3: mean that you're relinquishing your role as an authority. There

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Speaker 3: are some things that need to be decided within certain limits,

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Speaker 3: but you can still have a sense of input and

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Speaker 3: problem solving together within those guidelines.

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Speaker 1: So we've got autonomy support where we're really saying to

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Speaker 1: the children, I want to work with you as you

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Speaker 1: become volitional and control your own life, with me just

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Speaker 1: providing some gentle guidance to keep you in appropriate boundaries.

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Speaker 1: We've got structure, which means we're going to set things

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Speaker 1: up so that our children can feel competent, I feel

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Speaker 1: like they're having small wins and have a sense that

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Speaker 1: they're in control of their environment. They're able to develop

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Speaker 1: a sense of mastery. And the third one was involvement.

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Speaker 1: You found that families that are doing really well have

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Speaker 1: high levels of involvement compared to families that aren't doing

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Speaker 1: so well.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, whether it's involvement in school, or it's involvement

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Speaker 3: in more generally, in asking about what's going on and

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Speaker 3: doing things together as a family, doing family routines, all

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Speaker 3: of that really makes the difference in terms of kids

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Speaker 3: feelings secure and connective.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to autonomy support for a minute.

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Speaker 1: This is I think, as I said before, this is

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Speaker 1: to me the lynchpin of what parents who are really

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Speaker 1: getting it right really focus on. They step away from control.

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Speaker 1: So when I talk to parents about autonomy support, because

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Speaker 1: I have stepped out of the research thing and I

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Speaker 1: don't have to use all the academic words, I tend

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Speaker 1: to use words that are maybe a little bit more

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Speaker 1: practical for parents to say, Oh, I've just got to

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Speaker 1: do A, B and C. So I talk about it

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Speaker 1: in terms of the three ease of effective discipline. I

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Speaker 1: talk about exploring, explaining, and empowering.

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Speaker 2: So when we.

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Speaker 1: Explore, we do that first step that you said where

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Speaker 1: we try to see the world through their eyes. We say,

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Speaker 1: why you're really struggling with this, this is a really

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Speaker 1: hard thing. You don't like what I've asked you to do,

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Speaker 1: or whatever it might be. And then we spend a

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Speaker 1: little bit of time explaining so well, it's important to

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Speaker 1: you understand why this matters. You know, we have screen

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Speaker 1: time limits because if you spend too much time on screens,

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Speaker 1: then A, B and C it will occur.

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Speaker 2: You know, we don't have enough time to be together.

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Speaker 1: There's an opportunity cost where you're not doing the other

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Speaker 1: things that matter are so much in your life, like

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Speaker 1: getting your school worked, or being physically fit, or doing

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Speaker 1: your music practice, or being a part of our family.

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Speaker 1: And then we empower them, We say, so, if I'm

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Speaker 1: getting it right, this is really important to you because

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Speaker 1: of AB and C, but the and F for the

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Speaker 1: reasons that I'm struggling.

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Speaker 2: So what are we going to do together? That's kind

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Speaker 2: of the autonomy support process the way I describe it.

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Speaker 1: What do you think is the hardest part of actually

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Speaker 1: doing this with our children? So when I was looking

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Speaker 1: at your research, you talked about parents becoming stuck in

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Speaker 1: unhelpful patterns that kind of lead to pressure and control

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Speaker 1: and power struggles. So what are those patterns that lead

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Speaker 1: those power struggles and how do parents get better at

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Speaker 1: autonomy support?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question. And I

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Speaker 3: would just to add to our time is probably sometimes

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Speaker 3: forget that our tinnis we are just isn't just about

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Speaker 3: the discipline and about the way we deal with problems,

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Speaker 3: but it's also supporting kids' initiations, you know, for things

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Speaker 3: that they're interested in and passionate about, sort of being

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Speaker 3: kind of right behind them. Rather than in front of

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Speaker 3: them and sort of supporting what is fun and exciting

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Speaker 3: for kids. My answer to your question about what gets

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Speaker 3: in the way was very much based on my own

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Speaker 3: experience with my kids. So I'm someone who's been studying

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Speaker 3: this since well before I had children, and I would

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Speaker 3: watch parents in our studies, you know, we had. My

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Speaker 3: first studies were with babies. We were with twelve month

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Speaker 3: olds and moms interacting with their babies, and the moms

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Speaker 3: taking the hands, the kid's hands and putting them, you know,

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Speaker 3: moving them, and you know, saying do it like this,

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Speaker 3: And they were so invested in their kids doing well

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Speaker 3: that they were very Some of them were very controlling,

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Speaker 3: and I looked at them. I would never I would

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Speaker 3: never do that. But when you had your own kids,

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Speaker 3: you realize this investment in them doing well is so strong.

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Speaker 3: You don't want them to fail. You you love them,

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Speaker 3: want them to succeed. You want them to be the

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Speaker 3: best that they can be. They want to want it

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Speaker 3: to have every opportunity. And that feeling it for me

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Speaker 3: was so visceral. It would be like I would feel

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Speaker 3: it in my in my in my heart, and in

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Speaker 3: my stomach, and it would make you want to impose

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Speaker 3: your your what you you know is going to be

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Speaker 3: the best thing. You know, don't wear that dress, nobody's

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Speaker 3: going to like it, you know, or do your homework

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Speaker 3: this way or whatever it was. You just really want

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Speaker 3: them to succeed. And so I realized, you know, I

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Speaker 3: uh started to do a bunch of research on just

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Speaker 3: this issue that we get. We're really invested it. Not

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Speaker 3: because we're bad people or we're parents get such a

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Speaker 3: bad rap sometimes that they're egotistical and narcissistic. No, all

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Speaker 3: parents have this feeling that they want their kids to

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Speaker 3: succeed because they love them. Nature gave that to us

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Speaker 3: so that we could do all this sacrificing for our kids.

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Speaker 3: It's and we feel it as love. And so when

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Speaker 3: we get into this place where we get hooked into

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Speaker 3: I know, the best thing, and I can't afford to

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Speaker 3: have my child fail because of our own biology, but

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Speaker 3: also because of the competition that's all around us. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the kids are just competing all the time, and that

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Speaker 3: hooks us in. And I think that's when we get

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Speaker 3: really controlling and pushy and pressuring our kids to do

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Speaker 3: things when in our hearts maybe we know that that's

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Speaker 3: not the best thing to do. So people who who

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Speaker 3: really like this theory and would love your three'es find

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Speaker 3: themselves being really pushy and controlling. So and then you're

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Speaker 3: in this power struggle because our natural tendency when we're

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Speaker 3: controlled is to push back. We're trying to get our

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Speaker 3: autonomy back, and sometimes we do the opposite, doesn't get

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Speaker 3: our autonomy back, But when we feel controlled, we push back.

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Speaker 3: So then you get into these power struggles where I

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Speaker 3: don't want to wear that dress, but that dress kids

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Speaker 3: are going to like you if you wear that dress,

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Speaker 3: and that's going to be the best dress. And you're

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Speaker 3: back and forth, and you're thinking, how did I get

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Speaker 3: how did I get in this place in their first way?

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Speaker 2: I'm really interested.

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Speaker 1: I'd love to go through the developmental progression just briefly

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Speaker 1: on this. So you talked about parents who were controlling

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Speaker 1: with their infants, you know, their twelve month or eighteen

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Speaker 1: month old children, and with their toddlers. And it's not

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Speaker 1: because the child is necessarily doing the wrong thing quote

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Speaker 1: unquote wrong thing, you know, being challenging, because at twelve

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Speaker 1: months old, they're not going to be particularly challenging or

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Speaker 1: eighteen months like you said, this well intentioned desire for

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Speaker 1: them to do well.

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Speaker 2: But what did you.

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Speaker 1: Find in terms of outcomes when you compare the children

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Speaker 1: who are being controlled even as infants and toddlers by

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Speaker 1: well intentioned parents who just want their children to be

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Speaker 1: really good because you know, you're in the psychology department

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Speaker 1: and you're being observed by this researcher, and you want

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Speaker 1: your children to be in front of the curve, be

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Speaker 1: better than all the other kids. You want them to excel,

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Speaker 1: and so you dive in and start showing them how

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Speaker 1: to do it. I mean, it makes sense that parents

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Speaker 1: would be controlling, especially in that situation, but obviously there

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Speaker 1: were some parents who weren't who would What were the

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Speaker 1: outcomes for the children in terms of their their motivation

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Speaker 1: to participate in the activity or the curiosity about the activity?

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Speaker 2: Uh, you know, how how far did you study them?

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Speaker 2: What what did you find?

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Speaker 1: Just as a general summary of all of those various

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Speaker 1: studies that you've done in that area.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in those first studies where we actually just gave

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Speaker 3: the parents a task with their children and we said

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Speaker 3: just sit next to him while he plays with it,

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Speaker 3: we didn't. We weren't even pushing them to do something. Uh.

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Speaker 3: And some parents, like you, said solve the problem for

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Speaker 3: the child and move their arms and were very directive,

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Speaker 3: and other parents were sort of waiting, you know, stepping

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Speaker 3: back and waiting to be needed and allowing their children

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Speaker 3: to explore a little bit and things like that. And

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Speaker 3: then what we did was we had the children, introduced

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Speaker 3: the children to a kind of problem solving toy working

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Speaker 3: with an experimenter, and mom was sitting on the side

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Speaker 3: and just ask sort of said, make this work. So

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Speaker 3: and we looked at how persistent the kids were at

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Speaker 3: trying to solve the problems, and we found that the

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Speaker 3: ones who of the children, of the parents who are

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Speaker 3: more controlling and more solving problems for them, were less

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Speaker 3: motivated when they were kind of on their own to

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Speaker 3: try to solve this problem. So that was a really

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Speaker 3: important finding. And even at twelve months, then we followed

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Speaker 3: those kids up at twenty months, and the kids, again,

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Speaker 3: the kids are the more controlling parents were not only

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Speaker 3: less motivated to work on independent tasks, but they were

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Speaker 3: less competent at them in solving those tasks. So it

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Speaker 3: did look like there are some outcomes of solving problems

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Speaker 3: for kids and being really controlling.

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Speaker 1: How can parents get out of those palace struggles? It

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Speaker 1: seems like we need to try to be autonomy supportive

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Speaker 1: by having conversations out of the moment and problem solving together.

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Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, I think when a little of it is

402
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Speaker 3: self reflective, for me, it feels visceral. When you feel

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Speaker 3: that sense that i'm i'm I'm feeling really pressured to

404
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Speaker 3: push I'm feeling you know. I then to sort of

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Speaker 3: to be a little self perfected to say, where is

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Speaker 3: that coming from? Why am I feeling that way? What?

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Speaker 3: You know, what are really the risks of allowing my

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Speaker 3: child to uh not play the piano today or this week?

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Speaker 3: Or what are the risks of that?

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Speaker 2: What?

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Speaker 3: Where is that coming from? And sort of be interested

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Speaker 3: in it and realize it's just a feeling. It's a feeling.

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Speaker 3: It's an uncomfortable feeling sometimes, but you don't have to

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Speaker 3: necessarily act on it, and you can sort of take

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Speaker 3: a step back and say, you know, what would be

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Speaker 3: what are the consequences if I allow this? Or I

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Speaker 3: ask the opinion? And of course that's easier said than

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Speaker 3: done when you're in a stressed moment. But but but

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Speaker 3: sometimes if you're you know, you can you can think

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Speaker 3: about what the what, what really are the consequences here,

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Speaker 3: and how can I make a better decision or the

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Speaker 3: best decision in terms of the situation. And I think

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Speaker 3: part of it also lies for me in having faith

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Speaker 3: in this and a theory of why people do what

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Speaker 3: they do. And in this case, what we do when

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Speaker 3: our intervention is is sort of give people a theory

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Speaker 3: so that they can have some faith in it. If

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Speaker 3: you really believe that people will follow their passions, if

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Speaker 3: they are supported in autonomously, then you'll be able to say, Okay,

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Speaker 3: you know the guitar wasn't for you, and you'll find

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Speaker 3: something else. But you have to have that faith that

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Speaker 3: people will find their interests if you allow that to happen,

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Speaker 3: and people really will do better if they're supported in

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Speaker 3: their autonomy, because I think what happens sometimes is you say,

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Speaker 3: oh God, if I if I don't make her take

436
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Speaker 3: that ap horse, and if I don't make her study

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Speaker 3: right now, you know it's going to be bad for her.

438
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 3: But you still have to have faith that if I solve

439
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 3: this problem for her, if I control exactly what she's doing,

440
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 3: that it won't be such a good thing in the

441
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 3: long term, because in the short term it might feel

442
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 3: like it is. And so having faith in a theory

443
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 3: of human nature and is for me really important because

444
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 3: you get tested as a parent all the time.

445
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 1: I love what you said there, Wendy, particularly this idea

446
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:30,439
Speaker 1: that controlling parenting actually comes from fear. It's almost like

447
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: we're fearful that things are not going to be okay.

448
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 1: We're fearful that everything's going to go wrong, and therefore

449
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 1: we step in with control because we feel like it's

450
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 1: our duty to fix it and we have the power

451
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: to do so. And what I'm hearing you say really

452
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: clearly is if we step back and provide the right

453
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: environment for our children where they feel safe, we're not

454
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 1: raising the white flag and saying, oh, well fine, if

455
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 1: you don't want to swim, if you don't want to

456
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 1: play tennis, if you don't want to learn how to

457
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: play the musical instrument, We're just not going to do

458
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: anything for you anymore. And you know you're going to

459
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: end up in your room and you're going to be

460
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:06,680
Speaker 1: staring at a screen for the rest of your life.

461
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: That's not going to work out very well. You know,

462
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: that's kind of that fear paradigm, but instead to look

463
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 1: at our children and say, well, I guess that didn't

464
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 1: work out. You let us know what you think might

465
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: work out, and we'll support you in that instead, and

466
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 1: then step back with the trust that in the right

467
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: environment they actually will exactly.

468
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 3: Trust is a really good word, trust in your kids

469
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 3: and also trust in the developmental process.

470
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: If you created a simple list of outcomes that we

471
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 1: see in children who have parents who are autonomy supportive

472
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: and providing structure and building involvement, what would the evidence

473
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: point to just that, You know, what does the science

474
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: say happens when we do this stuff consistently?

475
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 2: How do our kids turn out great?

476
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 3: So kids a time whose parents are more autonomy sort

477
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 3: of will be more self regulating in their behavior, whether

478
00:23:54,920 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 3: it's in school, They'll be more likely to be more spontaneous, engaging,

479
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,959
Speaker 3: and less likely to have to be pushed. They're going

480
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 3: to be They're going to be more self regulating. People

481
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 3: find that autonomy support is associated with better self esteem

482
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 3: because when people are solving problems for you all the time,

483
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 3: you're thinking, well, I must may not very good at this,

484
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 3: So so building self esteem being more active in their coping.

485
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 3: So when they have setbacks, my parents are more tiomy supportive,

486
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 3: the kids will be more actively trying to solve the

487
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 3: problems and engaging and engaging them rather than throwing the

488
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 3: the bad exam into the garbage can and never looking

489
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 3: at it again.

490
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: So it's kind of like they're becoming more resilient.

491
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: It's it's like it's a resilience booster, it's a it's

492
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: a growth strategy.

493
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 3: Exactly, and also feeling more in control of their successes

494
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 3: and failures that they can have an impact. And finally

495
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 3: also feeling more secure in their attachment. So when parents

496
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 3: are trying to sort of kids feel more like they

497
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 3: can count on their parents to be there when they

498
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 3: need them and feel more secure, and that enables you

499
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 3: to then explore your world a little bit more with

500
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 3: this backdrop of support.

501
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: I love that.

502
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: So when you think about the research that you've done

503
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: over the last thirty plus years into families, what's the

504
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: most powerful thing that you've learned and how has it

505
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: challenged convention and helped you to be a better Wendy Gronik.

506
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. I think

507
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 3: in terms of parent the work with parents, I'm very

508
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 3: sensitive to the negative stereotypes and raps about parents, and

509
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 3: my experience working with parents is that they all want

510
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 3: the best for their kids there, you know, and they're

511
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 3: doing the things they do with that in mind. And

512
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 3: so so it's it's really important to not be judging

513
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: of how parents are acting and understanding that behind that

514
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 3: is wanting the best for their kids. And in all

515
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 3: the situations that we have, we can find that and

516
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: be and really be very supportive and positive ourselves.

517
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 2: I love that. I love that. Yeah.

518
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: Well, to conclude our conversation, Wendy, and it's been so

519
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: wonderful talking to you, I ask five rapid fire questions

520
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: and I'm excited to hear your answers. So, if we

521
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: asked your two children their favorite thing to do with you, or,

522
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: given that they're in the late twenties now, their favorite

523
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: memories of you because they're older, what would they say,

524
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: favorite thing to do with mom and dad?

525
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny. The other day, my daughter, my

526
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 3: older daughter who's thirty now, said to me, when we

527
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: were little, you let us do whatever we wanted. And

528
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 3: I don't think I let them do whatever they want,

529
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 3: but she gave this example of something anything that my

530
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 3: my younger daughter wanted to do. She wanted to every

531
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 3: week she had she wanted to give an award to

532
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 3: one of my older daughters the friend's parents as the

533
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 3: nicest parent of the week or something else. And I

534
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 3: actually and she'd got some flowers and I and she

535
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 3: she wanted We went to the house, we gave the

536
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 3: flowers and she said, why did you let her do that?

537
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 3: That was very strange. And I said, she was so

538
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 3: passionate about it was out of compassion. Why wouldn't I.

539
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 3: Why wouldn't I let her do that? So they do

540
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 3: have this sense that that that I I followed them

541
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 3: and sometimes and and that's a really nice thing, and

542
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: allowed them to follow there sometimes silly or funny interests

543
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 3: and cookie interests. So they probably say that, so.

544
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 2: What's being you a trickiest parenting moment?

545
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 3: It's tricky to be a motivation researcher on parenting with

546
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: with children because they actually at a certain point they

547
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,719
Speaker 3: read my book and they would say things like they

548
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 3: would use my language and they would say, Mom, you're

549
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 3: being controlling. You can't you're not practicing what your page.

550
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 3: And so sometimes when we were dealing with you know,

551
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: tricky things in teenagerhood about curfew and things like that.

552
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 3: They would use use the language against me. I'd say, well,

553
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to provide structure, and I think just

554
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 3: also just trying to stay true to what I what

555
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 3: I believe, but tested all the time with those moments

556
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 3: where I got hooked into wanting wanting to make sure

557
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 3: everything turned out okay, and couldn't.

558
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 2: I couldn't do that all the time, so much pressure.

559
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: Question number three.

560
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: If you could spend an hour with your kids at

561
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: any age at all, let's say tomorrow afternoon at three

562
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: o'clock they're going to walk in your living room and

563
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: they're going to be that magical age. What age would

564
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: you pick?

565
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 3: And why I would pick? How they are exactly now

566
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 3: for me, every stage, every time, every time they grow.

567
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 3: I'm just wowed by who they are as you know

568
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 3: and so, and the way in which we can interact

569
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 3: now as friends and colleagues and equals and a parent child.

570
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: But so right now I think would be would be

571
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 3: my pick. I just love interacting with them as adults.

572
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: Great, So question number four of the five, No matter

573
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: how good life has been and how glad you are

574
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: to be in the moment right now. What are you

575
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: most looking forward to as a mom?

576
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, just seeing them settled in whatever interests them

577
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 3: and happy and so just seeing.

578
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: That move along beautiful.

579
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: And the last question, which is my favorite, if you

580
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: could go back to Wendy Grohlnik as a young mom

581
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: with no experience at this parenting thing at all, what

582
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: one piece of advice would you give yourself and how

583
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 1: did you learn how valuable that were.

584
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 3: It's actually a piece of advice that I give parents,

585
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 3: and I try not to give too much of advice,

586
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 3: but when we work with them, is that to see

587
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 3: every setback that your child has as an opportunity for

588
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: them to learn something. And I wish I had known

589
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 3: that at the time. This is just an example. There

590
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 3: was one year that at the school that my older

591
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 3: daughter was at, the principal would say, you can't ask

592
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 3: for a particular teacher. That was a rule, but apparently

593
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: everybody did and I just didn't realize it, So so

594
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 3: we always got the new teacher. So one year I'm

595
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 3: a rule follower that way. So one year she got

596
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 3: this teacher that was just really not knowledgeable. It was

597
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 3: a friend of a friend or something like that. She

598
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: only lasted a year, but she really set the kids

599
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 3: back in the sense that she really didn't know what

600
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 3: they had learned last year. They were learning old things.

601
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 3: And at the time I was thinking, you know, I

602
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,719
Speaker 3: should really do something and change her class, and you know,

603
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 3: this is terrible and she's going to be behind well

604
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 3: that year because that all the other teachers were giving

605
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 3: were producing plays in their classrooms, and this teacher didn't.

606
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: My older daughter actually asked the teacher, can I write

607
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 3: a play and that the school can put off? And

608
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 3: she put on this play. She wrote the play, she

609
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 3: put on the play in her class, She developed a

610
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 3: philanthropic project that year. And so growth happens in the

611
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: strangest places, and so if I engineered that to get

612
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 3: her out of it, that never would have happened. So

613
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 3: the opportunities that of helping your kids deal with whatever

614
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 3: is in front of them in an autonomy supportive way

615
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 3: and learn those skills. And you just never know what's

616
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,239
Speaker 3: going to be the growth opportunity. So when parents come

617
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: in and say this is happening and I don't think

618
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 3: it's good, this is a great opportunity for you to

619
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 3: teach your that you can get through this. I don't

620
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 3: think I knew that, but if I had known that,

621
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 3: I probably wouldn't have believed it. So but I wish

622
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 3: I wish I had and I do try to convey

623
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 3: that to parents that it's all just a learning opportunity.

624
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: Thank goodness, this bad thing happened or this challenge happened

625
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 3: because your child's still home and they're not in college

626
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 3: yet where they're not going to have you there to

627
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: help them through it.

628
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: Wendy, so very grateful for you being so generous with

629
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: your time and with your expertise today. It's beautiful. It's

630
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: great to have the conversation. So I'm tremendously thankful it's been.

631
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 3: Oh I hope it was useful.

632
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: I hope that you've gotten some wonderful insight into Wendy

633
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: Gronick as a result of this podcast. Wendy's a wonderful

634
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: communicator and has some brilliant thoughts around how we can

635
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: support and encourage our kids without pressure and coercion. Her

636
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: books are well worth looking up, and I think they'd

637
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: be a great resource for any parent's library. If you'd

638
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: like more information on how to access more premium content

639
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: visit happy families dot com.

640
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: Do you look on memberships

641
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: Hmm,