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Speaker 1: Already and this this is the daily This is the daily.

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Speaker 2: Ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: the fifth of March.

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Speaker 2: I'm emma, i'm zara.

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Speaker 1: The Workplace Gender Equality Agency WGEA has released its latest

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Speaker 1: annual pay gap report this week, which found that on average,

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Speaker 1: men still earn more than women across all industries. The

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Speaker 1: agency's gender pay gap target range for all employers is

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Speaker 1: plus or minus five percent, but its latest findings show

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Speaker 1: that just one in five Australian employers is actually meeting

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Speaker 1: this target. But it's not all bad news, with fifty

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Speaker 1: six percent of employers improving their gender pay gap in

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty three to twenty four financial year compared

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Speaker 1: to the previous one. In today's deep dive, we're going

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Speaker 1: to take a closer look at these findings to check

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Speaker 1: in with where Australia is at when it comes to

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Speaker 1: the gender pay gap.

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Speaker 3: M if our comment section has anything to go by,

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Speaker 3: which look, it shouldn't always be something.

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Speaker 2: To go by.

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Speaker 3: However, there is a lot of confusion about what the

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Speaker 3: gender pay gap is and one of the things that

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Speaker 3: always comes up is isn't it illegal to pay men

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Speaker 3: and women differently for the same job. We're not talking

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Speaker 3: about that that is illegal. What are we talking about today.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so it can be a really confusing one, so

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Speaker 1: bear with me. And part of the reason that it

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Speaker 1: is so confusing is that often the gender pay gap

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Speaker 1: is a marker that is measured differently across different reporting

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Speaker 1: and different organizations. But from the outset, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: it's important to note we're not talking about men and

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Speaker 1: women being paid differently for doing the same job. That

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Speaker 1: is illegal. That is a form of workplace discrimination. And

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Speaker 1: so what the gender pay gap is referring to is

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Speaker 1: the difference in how men and women are paid across

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Speaker 1: all levels and all industries, so the differences in their earnings. Now,

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Speaker 1: in terms of the WGEA reporting specifically, there are two

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Speaker 1: main data sets used to help us understand the gender

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Speaker 1: pay gap and this will kind of speak to what

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Speaker 1: it actually is hopefully now. The first analysis is the

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Speaker 1: median pay gap within Australian businesses with over one hundred employees,

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Speaker 1: and those findings can be used to inform industry specific

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Speaker 1: trends broader trends within Australian workplaces and remembering that median

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Speaker 1: means middle. So if you line up all the earnings

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Speaker 1: from highest to lowest for men and women in a company,

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Speaker 1: you take the middle number of that list for each

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Speaker 1: gender and compare the difference in that number in terms

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Speaker 1: of percentage, you look like you're in physical pain.

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Speaker 3: I was actually just about to jump in because during

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Speaker 3: year seven maths, I remember learning main median mode. This

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Speaker 3: is nothing else to contribute. It was just in my

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Speaker 3: head and I didn't know when the right time to

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Speaker 3: say it was.

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Speaker 1: Everyone brings this sung up and it speaks to how

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Speaker 1: little attention I paid in high school mathsacolt.

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Speaker 3: I remember that's really family lodged in my brain. But sorry,

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Speaker 3: we digress.

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Speaker 2: Go on.

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Speaker 1: So the median metric is part of the gender pay

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Speaker 1: gap reporting. Last year's report was slightly different, but now

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Speaker 1: the annual publication also includes the average remuneration of CEOs,

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Speaker 1: heads of businesses, casual managers, so senior workers within organizations,

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Speaker 1: and that data was previously excluded. So when we're talking

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Speaker 1: about remuneration, we're talking about a combination of earnings, not

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Speaker 1: just salary. So this includes bonuses, superannuation, additional earnings like

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Speaker 1: sales commissions, those kinds of.

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Speaker 3: Things, and the inclusion of CEOs is very significant because

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Speaker 3: when you're finding an average, if the top is a

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Speaker 3: lot higher, then that's going to be reflected in the average.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And that we're going to get into a

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Speaker 1: little bit more of the data, and that kind of

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Speaker 1: speaks to some of the fluctuations that we have seen

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Speaker 1: this year. But overall, what you need to know is

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Speaker 1: that this report shows us the difference between what Australian

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Speaker 1: men and women earn across different companies, different industries, and

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Speaker 1: different career levels.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so just to one hundred percent clarify, the gender

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Speaker 3: pay gap is not Sam and I doing the same

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Speaker 3: job but being paid differently. That is not the gender

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Speaker 3: pay gap, yeh. But the gender pay gap is measuring

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Speaker 3: is overall across industries, the earnings and the difference in

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Speaker 3: earnings between men and women exactly.

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Speaker 2: All Right.

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Speaker 3: One other thing I just wanted to briefly touch on

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Speaker 3: before we get to the data itself is who has

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Speaker 3: compiled the data, Because as you mentioned at the top,

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Speaker 3: there have been quite a few different metrics for how

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Speaker 3: this is measured, but we now do have this definitive

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Speaker 3: source for Australia's gender pay gap. Talk to me about

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Speaker 3: the WGEA.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So that's the Workplace Gender Equality Agency in case

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Speaker 1: you've forgotten. It's part of the federal government and it's

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Speaker 1: a national body task with reducing gender discrimination for workers

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Speaker 1: around the country. In twenty twenty three, the government passed

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Speaker 1: legislation requiring businesses with at least one hundred workers to

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Speaker 1: disclose their gender pay gap data, and that law mandated

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Speaker 1: that the WGEA would publish that data. So a report

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Speaker 1: last year was actually the first time we had seen

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Speaker 1: this kind of data that it had been made public,

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Speaker 1: and now that agency has handed down its second gender

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Speaker 1: pay gap report this week. So that legislation is the

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Speaker 1: reason why we only have these two years of reporting.

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Speaker 3: And it is it should be said, pretty substantial that

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Speaker 3: you've got these companies having to publish this level of

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Speaker 3: data like that.

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Speaker 2: I've looked at the report.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot there about how some of these bigger

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Speaker 3: companies in Australia, but also some of them aren't that big.

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Speaker 3: You know, one hundred employees. It's bigger than the daily ohs,

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Speaker 3: but it's not massive. And we now have a really

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Speaker 3: full picture of how they're paying their workers, which is fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and for workers in those companies, you know, they

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Speaker 1: can access this public data and compare their employer against

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Speaker 1: other employers across that industry. And the other thing to

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Speaker 1: mention is that a company's progress or standing when it

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Speaker 1: comes to its gender pay gap is measured against this

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Speaker 1: target range. Now, the WDEA says a pay gap between

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Speaker 1: minus five percent to five percent accounts for normal changes

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Speaker 1: at workplaces, and that's that target range. So the companies

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Speaker 1: that are seen to be behind on their gender pay

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Speaker 1: gap outcomes are companies whose gender pay gaps fall outside

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Speaker 1: that target range.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So without further ado, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: data in this report.

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Speaker 2: What do we need to know though? What's what are

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Speaker 2: the headlines?

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Speaker 1: So the results, as you mentioned, this is extensive. The

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Speaker 1: results come from seven eight hundred individual employers, seventeen hundred

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Speaker 1: corporate groups now their parent companies of at least one organization.

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Speaker 1: So I think you know Woolworths Group it owns Woolies

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Speaker 1: the supermarket, yes, but also it owns brands like BWS

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Speaker 1: and Big w And this data set applies to more

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Speaker 1: than five million Australian employees. Within those thousands and thousands

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Speaker 1: of companies based on that target range that we've discussed

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Speaker 1: plus or minus five percent, the WGEA found four in

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Speaker 1: five employers are not meeting that target. In fact, Australia's

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Speaker 1: average gender pay gap for the twenty twenty three to

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Speaker 1: twenty four financial year was thirteen percent.

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Speaker 3: Just for a listener, and I guess, for my sake,

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Speaker 3: what does that thirteen percent actually look like in numbers?

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Speaker 1: So for every dollar a man earns, women earn seventy

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Speaker 1: eight cents on average, So three and four Australian companies

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Speaker 1: pay men more than women on average, with women earning

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Speaker 1: twenty eight four hundred and twenty five dollars less per year. Interestingly,

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Speaker 1: this report also found the higher the average total remuneration

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Speaker 1: at an employer, the more likely that employer is to

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Speaker 1: have a large gender pay gap favoring men. Looking at

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Speaker 1: gender pay gaps favoring men across different industries, I.

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Speaker 3: Think, can I just interrupt you there because you keep

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Speaker 3: saying gender pay gaps favoring men? Yes, are there gender

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Speaker 3: pay gaps favoring women?

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Speaker 1: There were some companies where gender pay gaps favored women

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Speaker 1: six point five percent of employers to be exact, YEP

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Speaker 1: seventy two percent of employers had gender pay gaps that

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Speaker 1: favored men.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so the large majority, the large majority exactly.

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Speaker 1: Now, looking at that by industry. In financial services as

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Speaker 1: an industry, ninety six percent of employers had gender pay

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Speaker 1: gaps outside the target favoring men.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so almost all, yes, almost.

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Speaker 1: All of the financial services industry. In construction not far behind,

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Speaker 1: with ninety two percent of employers reporting gender pay gaps

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Speaker 1: favoring men, And in retail this figure was sixty eight percent,

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Speaker 1: education sixty two percent. Interestingly, some female dominated industries there

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Speaker 1: with significant gender pay gaps bring men in terms of

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Speaker 1: gender balanced earnings, though again this was in the significant minority.

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Speaker 1: But we saw the public service industry that actually reported

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Speaker 1: gender balanced earnings across sixty five percent of employers.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So that's industries. One of the other things that's

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Speaker 3: really interesting in this report, though, is that we do

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Speaker 3: have a company by company breakdown. Talk to me about

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Speaker 3: what we found out about these individual companies.

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Speaker 1: So in terms of some of the companies and bigger

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Speaker 1: brands that TDA listeners might have actually heard of, we

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Speaker 1: looked at companies with more than two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: employees and then sorted that by the highest pay gaps

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Speaker 1: amongst those larger companies. This was some incredible data analysis

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Speaker 1: by our journalist Harry Sekulic, so thank you Harry the

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Speaker 1: numbers man, and he identified an interesting trend with some

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Speaker 1: major women's fashion retailers. Now that included City Chic, which

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Speaker 1: had a sixty seven percent gender pay gap, Cfolly, which

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Speaker 1: had a sixty two point two percent gender pay gap.

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Speaker 1: Actually looked at our reporting on this from last year

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Speaker 1: and c Folly is up from forty four point five

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Speaker 1: percent as its gender pay gap, so it's gone backwards

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Speaker 1: to sixty two point two percent. Mimco was on fifty

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Speaker 1: nine point four percent. I had a look at the

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Speaker 1: financial services sector because we had that significant ninety six

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Speaker 1: percent industry gender pay gap. An investment bank, Morgan Stanley

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Speaker 1: reported a fifty eight point six percent gender pay gap.

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Speaker 1: And then some huge household companies brands names Jetstar and

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Speaker 1: virgin both reported gender pay gaps of around forty two percent. Now,

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Speaker 1: those numbers were almost identical to jets Are and Virgins

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Speaker 1: gender pay gaps for the previous year.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, super interesting, And just to clarify there, we're not

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Speaker 3: saying that the companies that you listed were you know, one, two, three, four, five, six,

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Speaker 3: seven the worst ones there. It was just we were

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Speaker 3: picking a handful hour of that top cohort that our

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Speaker 3: listeners might be familiar with. But there were also you know,

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Speaker 3: family holding groups and some mining groups.

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Speaker 2: There are lots of different companies exactly.

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Speaker 1: I think this is just you know, giving a snapshot

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Speaker 1: to paint a bit of a picture to kind of

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Speaker 1: help the average person understand how this works in everyday

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Speaker 1: terms for those you know, millions of Australian employees.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and and I want to go back to something

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Speaker 3: you said at the top about the fact that there

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Speaker 3: have been some improvements perhaps to look at some of

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Speaker 3: the silver lining in this starta can you take me

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Speaker 3: through that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's important to note, you know, this isn't all

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Speaker 1: bad news and the very nature of this reporting, ultimately

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Speaker 1: it's hoped will kind of encourage companies towards progress with

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Speaker 1: their gender pay gaps, and fifty six percent of employers

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Speaker 1: in this latest report actually improved their gender pay gap

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Speaker 1: between the first and the second WGEA report. There was

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Speaker 1: also a significant increase in employers conducting gender pay gap

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Speaker 1: analysis on their pay and composition to find out what's

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Speaker 1: driving these gaps, what's behind some of those significant differences,

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Speaker 1: and consultation within these companies also rose significantly, so we

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Speaker 1: heard from many more employers saying that they have taken

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Speaker 1: steps to talk to their employees to understand these differences

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Speaker 1: better as well. WGEA CEO Mary Wooldridge said it's promising

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Speaker 1: to see the big increase in the number of employers

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Speaker 1: working to understand what's driving their gender pay gap beyond

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Speaker 1: unequal pay, and she added that workplace equality has benefits

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Speaker 1: for all workers. You know, this isn't just about women

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Speaker 1: earning more money. It's about benefits that could change workplaces

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Speaker 1: for everyone. Redesigning senior roles to accommodate women on a

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Speaker 1: job share or part time kind of basis, or redesigning

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Speaker 1: senior roles to be more flexible for parents, whichever gender

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Speaker 1: they are For men, Wooldridge said that you know, paid

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Speaker 1: parental leave and paying superannuation on that leave could create

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Speaker 1: a more equal experience, and she that over the past year,

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Speaker 1: employers have told the agency that the publication of these

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Speaker 1: pay gaps has been a catalyst to assess gender based

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Speaker 1: differences in all areas. Of their workplace.

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Speaker 3: So that's an interesting point there, because it is a

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Speaker 3: fine line, right, Like I'm sure, yeah, some employers feel

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Speaker 3: like this is you know, shaming behavior, or that this

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Speaker 3: is calling them out, whereas from Mary Woolridge's perspective, she's saying, no,

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Speaker 3: this is actually incentivizing companies to do better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think, you know, we can all probably

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Speaker 1: agree that if a company has more flexible policies that

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Speaker 1: are better for all workers there, it's probably going to

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Speaker 1: be a better place to work. You're probably going to

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Speaker 1: have more satisfied and motivated employees. But like I said, Zara,

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Speaker 1: this is just the second year of reporting from the

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Speaker 1: WGEA on this data, so it's going to be really

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Speaker 1: interesting to see how things evolve over.

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Speaker 2: The years to come.

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Speaker 3: And it's fascinating that we now have this landmark, you know,

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Speaker 3: annual metric that we can assess whether there's improvements or

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Speaker 3: whether there's stagnation.

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Speaker 2: Really interesting one. So thank you for explaining, madam.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: That wraps up another episode of The Daily OZ. We'll

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Speaker 3: be back again later today with the day's headlines, but

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Speaker 3: until then, have a great Wednesday.

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Speaker 2: My name is Lily Madden.

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Speaker 3: And I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Chalcutin woman from Gadighl country.

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Speaker 3: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 3: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

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Speaker 3: all Aboriginal and Torres Straight Island and nations. We pay

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Speaker 3: our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both

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Speaker 3: past and present.