1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: You and I are finite beings, my friend. That's a 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: pretty abstract concept until you think about just how much 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: stuff we need to get done every day. Oliver Berkman, 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: who's a Guardian columnist and best selling author, says, the 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: amount of things that we could potentially do every day 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: is by definition infinite, and a finite being with an 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: infinitely long to do list is not a happy being. 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: This causes most of us to start our days feeling 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: like we're in productivity debt and our to do list 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: is our ticket back to zero, back to a clean 11 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: balance sheet. But according to Oliver, this is really a 12 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: ticket to misery. So how has Oliver done a mental 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: reframe on his days to lead to a happier but 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: still productive life. 15 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 2: My name is doctor Amantha Imba. 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science 17 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work, a show 18 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: about how. 19 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: To help you do your best work. 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: On today is my Favorite Tip episode, we go back 21 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: to an interview from the past and I pick out 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: my favorite tip from the interview. In today's show, I 23 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: speak with Oliver Berkman and we start by talking about 24 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: Oliver's done list and why he created one. 25 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is an incredibly simple notion. That is just 26 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 3: the idea that in addition to all these lists that 27 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 3: we keep our systems, that we have to tell us 28 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 3: and organize all the things we have not yet done, 29 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 3: the sort of terrible weight of the not yet completed things. 30 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 3: Cut yourself some slack, keep a list that you add 31 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 3: to of the things that you complete, right, keep keep 32 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: a record of what you do. Some of the ways 33 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 3: that people organize there there to do is will naturally 34 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 3: create these, Right if you're sort of moving things among 35 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 3: columns on a can ban board or something like that, 36 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 3: you're going to naturally come up with a list of 37 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 3: completed items. But if you're the just have a sort 38 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 3: of regular to do list, like keep one other list 39 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 3: where you literally write something down every time you've you've 40 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 3: crossed it off one list, or even if you wasn't 41 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 3: on that list, you know, if you do it, write 42 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 3: it on the done list. I think you know, on 43 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: the simplest level, it's just nice to remind yourself that 44 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 3: that you sort of almost always, even when you feel 45 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 3: like a day didn't go very productively, you actually probably 46 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 3: did a whole lot of stuff. It's incredibly easy to 47 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 3: forget the sort of number of genuinely worthwhile things that 48 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 3: you did on a subtler level. I think it helps 49 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 3: challenge this notion that a lot of people have and 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 3: that I certainly am still to some extent afflicted by 51 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 3: that you sort of start each morning in a condition 52 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 3: of what I called productivity debt. You know that like 53 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 3: you owe it to yourself or maybe to your boss 54 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 3: or something to like to sort of pay off this 55 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 3: debt through being productive, and hopefully on a really good 56 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 3: day you might get back up to like zero balance. 57 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 3: You might get yourself out of overdraft and out of 58 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 3: debt and back to zero, which is a really kind 59 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 3: of I mean, there are lots of reasons for it, 60 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 3: but it's a really unfortunate and self punishing way to 61 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 3: frame work. And it's tied into all these kind of 62 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 3: ideas that people have about their self worth and about 63 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 3: the idea that they're not really justifying their existence on 64 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 3: the planet. Not really don't really have a right to 65 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 3: exist unless they unless they sort of pull off a 66 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: certain amount of tasks. Obviously, people are in jobs where 67 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 3: they do, in another sense, have to do a certain 68 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 3: amount of tasks to get paid, but in this existential sense, 69 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 3: you know, I think a lot of people have, certainly 70 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: me historically, have tied up their sense of sort of 71 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 3: basic adequacy as a human with how productive they're being. 72 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 3: And the great thing about a done list is it 73 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 3: sort of rewires this a bit, and it helps you 74 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 3: to think, well, how about you start the morning at 75 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 3: zero and everything that you do is extra, like it's 76 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 3: a deposit into your productivity bank account instead of just 77 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 3: paying off a debt. Why not think about it that way? 78 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 3: Why not think that you're absolutely enough as you are, 79 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 3: and then if you manage to do a whole lot 80 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 3: of cool things today, that's all extra and it's all great. 81 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: That's so cool. 82 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: I love that reframe because I've never been able to 83 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: consistently keep a done list, even though I really like 84 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: the advice and interesting. I've recently changed my workflow around 85 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: how I managed tasks, and I was listening to you 86 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: talk about your to do this strategy and the long 87 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: list and the short list, or I think in the 88 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: book you referred to it as an open list and 89 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: a closed list, which really yeah, which really resonated with me, 90 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: And I've recently someone put me onto this software called Motion. Annoyingly, 91 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: there are two calendar software is called Motion and for 92 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: anyone that is interested, it's Usemotion dot io dot com. 93 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: And how it works is that you have your combines 94 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: your task list and I guess this would be the 95 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: well I guess the closed list with your calendar, so 96 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: you're seeing both on the same screen and you enter 97 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: your tasks on the left hand side, and you assign 98 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: an approximate time of how long they would take to complete, 99 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: and then you drag and drop them into your calendar, 100 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: so it sort of automatically timeboxes for you in terms 101 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: of that task then becomes a meeting with yourself and 102 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: then when you finish the task, like normally, what would 103 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: happen if you were just doing normal timeboxing is time 104 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: would pass and you would have. 105 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 2: Finished the task. But with this, you actually get to 106 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: ticket off and it stays in your calendar, but it's 107 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: kind of grade out, so like you get to the 108 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 2: end of the day and you feel that sense of 109 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: achievement or progress because everything you've completed is still there, 110 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 2: but it's ticked off, and you get to tick it 111 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 2: off as you go through your day, which also you 112 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 2: know it's just good in terms of giving you that 113 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 2: dopamine hit as you go throughout it. But it's also 114 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: good in terms of not over scheduling yourself because you 115 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: kind of like you like if you treat that task 116 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: list as the closed list, and then you make sure 117 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: that you have time to fit everything physically into your calendar, 118 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: then you kind of end up with this perfectly balanced calendar. 119 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: I find that is it for today's show. But if 120 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: you're looking for more tips to improve the way that 121 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains 122 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: three cool things that I've discovered that help me work better, 123 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: from research findings to software to gadgets that I'm loving. 124 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot co. 125 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: That's how I Work dot co. How I Work is 126 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: produced by Inventium with production support from dead Set Studios. 127 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: And thank you to Martin Nimba, who does the audio 128 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: mix for every episode and makes everything sound so much. 129 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: Better than it would have otherwise. 130 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: See you next time.