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Speaker 1: Now, the Government last week announced the introduction of the

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Speaker 1: Defamation Legislation Amendment Bill of twenty twenty five to Parliament.

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Speaker 1: There was so much legislation and so much happening in

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Speaker 1: Parliament last week that there is a lot of information

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Speaker 1: to get our heads around now. The Attorney General, Marie

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Speaker 1: Claire Boothby said that the bill was a much needed

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Speaker 1: reform to territory defamation law that is going to prevent

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Speaker 1: our legal system from being overburdened by minor matters and

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Speaker 1: protect Territorians from unnecessary legal battles over trivial disputes. The

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Speaker 1: Attorney General Marie Claire booth Me joins me on the line,

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Speaker 1: good morning to your minister.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and to your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Now, why was this Defamation Legislation Amendment Bill introduced?

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Speaker 2: So, Katie, this is a bit of legislation that has

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Speaker 2: sort of been kicking around the corridors of Parliament for

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Speaker 2: quite some time. In fact, it was from about twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty and I note that Labour didn't bring this forward,

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Speaker 2: whereas we've picked it up and said, you know what,

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Speaker 2: this is something that actually could help with this overburdensome

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Speaker 2: on our courts, which we know is a huge issue.

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Speaker 2: So to try and avoid like trivial and frivolous legal

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Speaker 2: disputes happening in our courts, this legislation actually allows for

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Speaker 2: the real proper defamation claims that to be hurt in

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Speaker 2: courts only. And it's a bitten technical and probably somewhat

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Speaker 2: boring in terms of all the aspects of it, but

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Speaker 2: I can go through some againt.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, look, I suppose for me, I was surprised

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Speaker 1: when I saw the release come through because in that

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Speaker 1: release it said, you know that you're proud to support

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Speaker 1: a bill that protects the freedom of speech, empowers journalists

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Speaker 1: to hold public figures accountable, and enhances efficiencies in our

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Speaker 1: legal system. And I thought, while I was reading it,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure how this is going to impact me.

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Speaker 1: And I'm one of the very people that it's probably

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Speaker 1: aimed at protecting. So how will it protect freedom of speech?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess I'll start by saying this is

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Speaker 2: definitely not legal advice. Katie and few listeners. I'll just

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Speaker 2: if you do end up in a situation where you

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Speaker 2: need to make sure you seek some legal advice. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're right, Look, this is about protecting giving extra protections

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Speaker 2: or defenses for journalists. As an example, this is one

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Speaker 2: of the elements of the bill. And I'll give you

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Speaker 2: the example, like let's say you and I ktie, you're

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Speaker 2: a journalist on air. You might say something that I

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Speaker 2: deem as defamation about myself as Attorney General. Instead of

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Speaker 2: me going straight up to the court and putting forward

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Speaker 2: a complaint, and then you and I end up in

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Speaker 2: a trial, you and I have to work this out

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Speaker 2: first together, So it makes it mandatory for a dispute

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Speaker 2: resolution to occur. Now in that process, what has to

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Speaker 2: happen is if you can prove that you sourced information

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Speaker 2: with from the right sources, that it's you know, in

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Speaker 2: the public interest, and you checked your facts, and you

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Speaker 2: also gave me a right to comment about it or

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Speaker 2: a right reply, then that's extra defenses which are now

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Speaker 2: going to be in law to I guess protect you

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Speaker 2: from a potential case. And the other part of it,

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Speaker 2: which is really important, is that you would I would

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Speaker 2: have to prove that there was serious harm in the

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Speaker 2: whole defamation you know, commentary. So harm sorry, would be

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Speaker 2: things like economic loss or a real reputational damage. So

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Speaker 2: it kind of puts the emphasis back on the complainant

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Speaker 2: to ensure that they really do have a genuine case

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Speaker 2: for defamation, because otherwise we'll just end up in the

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Speaker 2: courts for a long period of time a lot of

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Speaker 2: he said, She said, So that's a really important part

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Speaker 2: to be able to protect freedman speech. You know, we

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Speaker 2: want our journalists to be able to say the things

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Speaker 2: they need to say about our public figures and other

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Speaker 2: public interest type matters. But without that, you just you know,

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Speaker 2: you could end up in court.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, and I think that it is really important

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Speaker 1: that we get this right. I guess the other part

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Speaker 1: of it, though, is are we going to end up

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Speaker 1: in a situation where you know, people are jumping online,

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Speaker 1: they're making all sorts of comments about other people, and

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Speaker 1: then you know, it's the onus is on the complaint

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Speaker 1: to try and prove that they've been defamed.

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Speaker 2: Imagine this, right, You have a dispute between a neighbor,

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Speaker 2: and then that neighbor jumps the line and tells everyone

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Speaker 2: that the neighbors you know, about personal lie or whatever

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Speaker 2: they want to say. What we don't want is something

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Speaker 2: like that, which is a dispute of a trivial nature

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Speaker 2: to end up in the courts. So between those two parties,

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Speaker 2: they have to prove, if they end up in court

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Speaker 2: that they've tried to sort it out. They've had they've

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Speaker 2: had dispute resolution, that's happened with the mediation, they've had

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Speaker 2: to prove a trail of paperwork where they've tried to

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Speaker 2: solve this because, like I said, we don't want those

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Speaker 2: kinds of matters like private citizens and disputes or reviews

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Speaker 2: online all going to a court where it could absolutely

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Speaker 2: be dealt with well before that.

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Speaker 1: And so why is this needed from a you know,

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Speaker 1: like in a practical sense, from the court perspective, do

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Speaker 1: we see a lot of situations across the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: where these kinds of things are clogging up the court system.

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Speaker 2: We haven't seen a great deal in the Northern Territory yet.

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Speaker 2: But another point, which is why we wanted to bring

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Speaker 2: it forward, is that every other state has tightened up

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Speaker 2: these laws to ensure it doesn't overburden courts around Australia.

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Speaker 2: And because the Territory didn't have these laws, which is

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Speaker 2: the reason why we're bringing them in, because it means

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Speaker 2: that people can actually forum shop around Australia. So if

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Speaker 2: you're a corporate and you want to, you know, try

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Speaker 2: and say someone's to faming the corporate brand or the person,

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Speaker 2: the person within the corporate and they've got big, deep pockets.

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Speaker 2: They could easily come to the territory and lodge a

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Speaker 2: case and have it heard here, and you know, that's

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Speaker 2: not the kind of thing we want to happen here

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Speaker 2: in the territory either, like it should be happening in

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Speaker 2: whatever state that you know, the jurisdiction is. So there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of tightening up. Like I said, it is

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Speaker 2: quite technical, there's a lot of points about it. But

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Speaker 2: those examples where we can try and get those disputes

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Speaker 2: that happen that can happen in court between two people

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Speaker 2: or between a journalist and someone with a profile, we

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Speaker 2: want them to be dealt with where possible outside the court. Now,

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Speaker 2: of course there are going to be some cases that

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Speaker 2: do end up in court because they're very serious, they

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Speaker 2: have caused harm, economic loss, reputational damage. Those still will happen,

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Speaker 2: but this way this just ensures that there's protections to,

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Speaker 2: you know, remove the frivolous claims. Unless someone is really

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Speaker 2: serious about putting forward a defamation claim, then this allows

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Speaker 2: it to not happen.

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Speaker 1: So how quickly are we expecting these changes to come

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Speaker 1: into play. Obviously it's all going to go through Parliament first.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So it was tabled last week. It will

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Speaker 2: sit in Parliament for a number of weeks until either

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Speaker 2: the next sitting or maybe even the sitting after it

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Speaker 2: depends on how much other legislation we have, because as

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Speaker 2: you've said, we've got lots coming through and then once

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Speaker 2: it's debated, it'll go through to the agencies to then

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Speaker 2: implement and it will happen when it happens, But you know,

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Speaker 2: we want to try and get it done as soon

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Speaker 2: as possible and that way we put it to bed

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Speaker 2: and we you know, have more freedom of speech available

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Speaker 2: to Territorians now.

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Speaker 1: Attorney General, we also know that there is obviously quite

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Speaker 1: an enormous burden on our courts at the moment. When

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Speaker 1: we spoke to the Law Society of the Northern Territories

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Speaker 1: President last week, we've spoken about the fact that the

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Speaker 1: NT courts have revealed that they're experiencing more than twenty

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Speaker 1: two thousand criminal and domestic violence cases. Well, they're expected

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Speaker 1: to by the end of twenty four to twenty five

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Speaker 1: financial year. That's three three hundred and ninety four more

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Speaker 1: cases than the year prior. This new data that was

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Speaker 1: released predicts an eighteen percent increase in lodgements compared to

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Speaker 1: the previous twelve months. It's going to break it, sorry,

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Speaker 1: a decade long record, I should say, for lower courts.

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Speaker 1: What do you think that this increase demonstrates.

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Speaker 2: So, Katie, this is true, and our courts have been

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Speaker 2: having a lot of pressure on them for a long

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Speaker 2: time now, but it certainly has been ramped up since

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Speaker 2: the new laws that we introduced late last year, and

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Speaker 2: of course we have more laws that are coming. So

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Speaker 2: we make no apologies for the fact that, you know,

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Speaker 2: defenders are now being dealt with in our courts and

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Speaker 2: a lot of them will be reminded and a lot

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Speaker 2: of them will wait for their trials or court hearing dates,

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Speaker 2: and some of them will end up incarcerated, you know,

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Speaker 2: as a sentence. And that's really important. I mean, we've

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Speaker 2: got those extra five hundred prisoners now that are in

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Speaker 2: there due to offenders off the streets. We've got our police,

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Speaker 2: you know, hunting down if you're like high risk offenders

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Speaker 2: that really shouldn't be on our streets. There was over

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Speaker 2: one hundred of them that have been arrested, and of

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Speaker 2: course it is putting pressure on our courts. But at

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Speaker 2: the same time, you know, we're doing the work within

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Speaker 2: the court system and the justice system to try and

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Speaker 2: alleviate this in terms of just getting matters through as

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Speaker 2: fast as we can. Now it's not a perfect system.

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Speaker 2: It's bumpy. They're all under pressure. They're working around the

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Speaker 2: clock to make this as smooth as possible, and it's

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Speaker 2: not smooth, and that's absolutely true. But what we've done

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Speaker 2: since coming to government is one recognize the pressures and

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Speaker 2: we've started to work on that. And I'll give you

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Speaker 2: a couple of examples of some of the changes that

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Speaker 2: we've made. Firstly, we found out that the prosecutors in

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Speaker 2: the DPP they weren't on permanent contracts. They only had

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Speaker 2: a twelve month contract. So that's a lot of uncertainty

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Speaker 2: within an area of really important to our justice system

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Speaker 2: where they just didn't have They didn't whether they're going

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Speaker 2: to be there the next day or not. So we've

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Speaker 2: actually made them permanent staff, which allows them to plan

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Speaker 2: for that certainty and any you know, changes that they

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Speaker 2: need to make within their area. We also ensured that

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Speaker 2: Legal Aid had the right amount of funding to be

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Speaker 2: able to continue their services. As we know last year

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Speaker 2: in the or larger had some problems, so we had

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Speaker 2: to ensure that they had the right amount of funding

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Speaker 2: and the conversations to make sure those levels of funding

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Speaker 2: for legal services continue. Because we're in the budget process

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Speaker 2: right now, we want to make sure that for all

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Speaker 2: the money we invest in police, we also invested into

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Speaker 2: our justice system, which includes our legal services and of

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Speaker 2: course also corrections, which is another flow on Kadi. I

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Speaker 2: was just in the court on Monday watching how it

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Speaker 2: all plays out, so the second time I've been down

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Speaker 2: in a matter of months to just watch exactly how

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Speaker 2: it works. And you can see there that things like

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Speaker 2: the video links are now operational, and there were many

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Speaker 2: cases I watched where you know, the person incarcerated was

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Speaker 2: on the video and so they were able to get

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Speaker 2: through those matters faster, which is good. I could still

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Speaker 2: see a lot of challenges and one of the things

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Speaker 2: that was really obvious was the work between the prosecutors

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Speaker 2: and the defense lawyers. A lot of that conversation should

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Speaker 2: have been happening well before they were in front of

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Speaker 2: a judge and it hadn't been and yet apparently many

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Speaker 2: many years ago, that used to happen quite regularly, like

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Speaker 2: they would literally meet up, work out if they had everything.

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Speaker 2: I mean, is it a situation.

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Speaker 1: Is it a situation where they're not though, because they

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Speaker 1: simply don't have the time.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's part of the resourcing, you know, not being

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Speaker 2: able to resource the right amount of prosecutors and the

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Speaker 2: right amount of defense lawyers. Like, there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: work that goes into these cases and unless you know

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Speaker 2: those people have the time to prepare that work. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: see their clients if if it's their defense lawyer, then

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Speaker 2: work with the prosecution, work with police to make sure

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Speaker 2: all the information is there to work out you know,

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Speaker 2: what's going to happen. Are they going to plea a

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Speaker 2: particular way and once and so ideally once they're in

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Speaker 2: front of the judge, it's a smooth process, you know,

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Speaker 2: it just go through the process, the judge will go

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Speaker 2: through what they need to do. But that hasn't been happening.

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Speaker 2: So with the right resources, which is the budget stuff

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Speaker 2: we're working on that will allow that kind of early

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Speaker 2: process to occur before they get in front of the judge, So.

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Speaker 1: You're confident that'll have a big impact.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I think it will. I think the court system's

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Speaker 2: quite There's a lot of process that goes on and

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Speaker 2: a lot of moving parts, and I think it's like anything,

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Speaker 2: if you change a couple of those small things within

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Speaker 2: a whole process, it makes a big difference. And like

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Speaker 2: with anything, you know, we'll tweak that. If it's not working,

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Speaker 2: we'll try something else, and we will also bring forward

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Speaker 2: legislation to provide those efficiencies with the courts. We're working

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Speaker 2: on some efficiencies now which will help again free up

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Speaker 2: those things. Just all the technical stuff like it is

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Speaker 2: quite boring, pitty it is.

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Speaker 1: But look, I think the thing that's really important for

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Speaker 1: our listeners to understand as well this morning is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've got more than fifty percent of our

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Speaker 1: prisoners as I understand it, that are currently on remand

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Speaker 1: so that is an enormous number of prisoners that are

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Speaker 1: on remand waiting for their case to be heard.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: In addition to that, in Catherine, we're hearing that you know,

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Speaker 1: you've got delays for people waiting to get to the court.

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Speaker 1: So they've been arrested, they're in the Watchhouse. They're waiting

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Speaker 1: a number of days to even be you know, being

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Speaker 1: able to front up and get into court. And the

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Speaker 1: impact that that's having, I think is broader than what

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Speaker 1: you know, broader than what we discuss often because you

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Speaker 1: look at the impact on our prisons, we know that

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Speaker 1: they are absolutely overflowing, and then you look at even

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Speaker 1: the impact on the Kathruin Watchhouse for example, that's having

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Speaker 1: to be staffed by the Northern Territory Police. So everybody's

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Speaker 1: doing their best to do their jobs, but by the

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Speaker 1: sounds of it, the court system is holding things up

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Speaker 1: in some ways. And I know that those working within

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Speaker 1: the court system wouldn't like, you know, that to be

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Speaker 1: happening either. I'm assuming that they want things to be

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Speaker 1: moving more quickly. So I guess the big question is

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Speaker 1: how are we going to sort of smarten this up

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Speaker 1: nice and fast so that we can get things moving

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Speaker 1: more quickly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're exactly right, Katie. Like those pressures that

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Speaker 2: you talk about, they are every aspect of our community,

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Speaker 2: and like everyone is working hand in glove together, including

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Speaker 2: you know, the people that work within the courts. Like

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Speaker 2: I meet with the chief Judge, I meet with the

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Speaker 2: defense lawyers, I meet with the prosecutors to try and

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Speaker 2: work out all these different things which aren't sexy, they're

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Speaker 2: not exciting in terms of discussing how we can, you know,

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Speaker 2: specifically address all of these process issues within a court system.

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Speaker 2: But all of them, all of it is very important,

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Speaker 2: and you have to work through every single part. And

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Speaker 2: there's already been a mountain of work that has been

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Speaker 2: done in that space, and I can see that when

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Speaker 2: I go down to the courts. But I can also

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Speaker 2: see there is still so much more work to be done.

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Speaker 1: And I want to say as well, I totally understand.

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Speaker 1: You know, some people listening this morning might be thinking

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Speaker 1: to themselves, oh, do you know what will fee if

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Speaker 1: someone gets charged with, you know, whatever offense they get

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Speaker 1: charged with. They deserve to go through this process. I'm

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Speaker 1: not disputing that. My concern actually is that when you

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Speaker 1: look at victims, and you know, when you look at

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Speaker 1: victims and wanting some justice when they have become a

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Speaker 1: victim of crime, you want that process to happen really

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Speaker 1: as quickly as it can.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right, Katie, And like all of this work

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Speaker 2: we do is exactly for that reason. Because of course,

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Speaker 2: offenders who are found guilty will be dealt with, but

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Speaker 2: the victims have to go through an enormous amount of strain,

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Speaker 2: and you know, the impact on them is life like

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Speaker 2: last for a lifetime. You know. That's and that's why

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Speaker 2: we are doing this work. And we can't just put

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Speaker 2: all that focus on police to keet these offenders off

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Speaker 2: the street. And we can't just you know, put all

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Speaker 2: the focus on corrections for they at the end like

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Speaker 2: the system that sits right in the middle of those

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Speaker 2: two things, and you know, as soon as you push

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Speaker 2: a little bit, something else changes. And that's why that's

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Speaker 2: why I've been going down to the court, that's why

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Speaker 2: I've been meeting with everybody and looking at all those processes, which,

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Speaker 2: like I said, are not sexy, it's almost not even

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Speaker 2: media worthy. But it's going to happen. They've got to happen,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not going to take my foot off the

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Speaker 2: pedal and until we can see some change there. And

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Speaker 2: it's not and it's bumpy, it really is, And I

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Speaker 2: absolutely acknowledge that this is not an ideal situation. It's

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Speaker 2: absolutely imperfect. But as long as we keep working towards it,

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Speaker 2: which we are, and you know the main objective is

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Speaker 2: to keep our offenders off the streets and that you know,

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Speaker 2: we need to keep our community safe and absolutely you know,

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Speaker 2: we can't apologize for that and we won't, but we

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Speaker 2: do absolutely acknowledge that all the work that has to

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Speaker 2: happen within the court system, the justice system, and of

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Speaker 2: course our corrections as well well.

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Speaker 1: Attorney General for the Northern Territory, Marie Claire Boothby, we

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Speaker 1: are going to have to leave it there. Really appreciate

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Speaker 1: your time today, Thanks so much for having a chat

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Speaker 1: with us.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Katie, and thank you