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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. A brand

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Speaker 1: new study has just been published in the very prestigious

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Speaker 1: journal Pediatrics. Last month had followed ten than twelve year

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Speaker 1: olds and it gives us some insight into the question

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Speaker 1: of the moment. Every time it's the new year, people

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Speaker 1: start saying how long should my kids be before they

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Speaker 1: get a smartphone? Well, the stats showed some alarming things.

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Speaker 1: If your child under twelve has a smartphone, they're more

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Speaker 1: likely to have depression, obesity, insufficient sleep. Basically, the earlier

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Speaker 1: kids get smartphones, the worse the outcomes. Kids who got

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Speaker 1: smartphones during their twelfth year had fifty seven percent higher

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Speaker 1: odds of clinical level mental health problems by the age

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Speaker 1: of thirteen. Translation, getting your child a smartphone in early

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Speaker 1: adolescence is a health risk factor full stop. Today on

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast, we answer the question when should

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Speaker 1: you get you get your child a smartphone because it's

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Speaker 1: when everyone's thinking about it. Start of the year, Stay

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Speaker 1: with us answers. Next, Hello, Welcome to the Happy Family's

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Speaker 1: podcast where you get real parenting solutions every single day.

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Speaker 1: This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We Adjustin and

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Speaker 1: Kylie calls and parents a six kids, Kylie, we've been

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Speaker 1: through this question. While we're going through it for the

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Speaker 1: sixth time with our sixth child, she's eleven turning twelve.

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Speaker 2: It's so much pressure. It's the iPad, it's the phone,

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Speaker 2: it's it's just some kind of screen, any kind of

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Speaker 2: screw dealing with it daily, relentless energy.

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Speaker 1: Like the same energy, so much energy.

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Speaker 2: Everybody's heard it, everyone else has one. I need it

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Speaker 2: for safety. What if there's an emergency, I'll be left out.

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Speaker 2: I can't contact my friends. And sometimes we start thinking, well,

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Speaker 2: it would make logistics a little bit easier, And maybe

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Speaker 2: I'm just being a little bit too unreasonable. Maybe I'm

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Speaker 2: being stricter than I need to make.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to jump in on that point. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've been through it, as is obvious from your comments,

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Speaker 1: but you're not being unreasonable as a parent raising a

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Speaker 1: tween or even an early teen when your children start

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Speaker 1: to hassle for a smartphone. And there's this general idea

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Speaker 1: that sort of permeated the culture that once kids are

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Speaker 1: in a year seven starting high school, that seems to

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Speaker 1: just be the time. Right they're catching public transport or

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Speaker 1: they've got this new found level of in a This kind.

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Speaker 2: Of feels like a coming of age thing, right, Yes,

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Speaker 2: they're twelve, they were a twin.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, about to be a teenager, and it seeped

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Speaker 1: into the culture, and I just think it's a terrible idea.

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Speaker 1: So before you hand over a smartphone, I think that

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Speaker 1: the most important thing to do is to get really

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Speaker 1: specific about the core question that you try to solve.

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Speaker 2: I really love this because in the early days we

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Speaker 2: didn't do that.

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Speaker 1: No greatest mistakes we've ever made revolve around when we

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Speaker 1: gave our kids smartphones. And I'm advoice of experience plus

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Speaker 1: the voice of research here when I talk to parents

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Speaker 1: about why they're giving the kids a smartphone, What is

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Speaker 1: the core problem you're trying to solve? The number one

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Speaker 1: thing that comes up every time, have a guess, safety, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent. Like I just want to know where

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Speaker 1: they are. I want to know they're okay, because now

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Speaker 1: they're much more mobile, they're on their bikes or the

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Speaker 1: skateboards or their e bikes or whatever. Just need to

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Speaker 1: know where they are.

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Speaker 2: So I kind of cringe when I hear it, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: a little bit, because I do. I feel the same

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Speaker 2: way like when our kids leave the house, I kind

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Speaker 2: of want to know where they are.

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Speaker 1: Well, your heart has just gone for a wander with them, right.

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Speaker 2: That's right. But also the idea that we're teaching our

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Speaker 2: kids that without a phone they're not safe doesn't make

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Speaker 2: sense to me because no matter where they are, it's

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Speaker 2: not like we're dropping them off somewhere where they're going

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Speaker 2: to be surrounded by what danger, Like, there's always safe people, yeah,

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Speaker 2: everywhere that are willing and able to help if it's

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Speaker 2: any given situation. Totally, you missed your bus, there's somebody

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Speaker 2: waiting at the bus stop you get left behind. After training,

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Speaker 2: her teaches there like there's always.

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Speaker 1: Someone Yeah, yeah, and we need we actually believe that

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Speaker 1: the world is safe. So safety is the number one.

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Speaker 1: There are a couple of others as well, logistics like

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Speaker 1: what if I forget, what if my child needs to

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Speaker 1: be picked up? There's just that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: So you ever forgotten? Yeah? Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 1: I was my favorite one. Mum dropped me off at

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Speaker 1: the doctor and she said, I'll come and pick you up.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know an hour or forty five minutes

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Speaker 1: or whatever it was. I think I was eleven or

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Speaker 1: twelve and finished at the doctor, walked outside, no signed

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Speaker 1: of Mum. I waited for about forty minutes, like I

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Speaker 1: waited a long time, and then I just decided to walk.

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Speaker 1: I reckon. It was probably three or four k's and

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Speaker 1: I was five hundred meters from being back where Mum was.

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Speaker 1: Mum was at work and I was walking to her workplace,

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Speaker 1: and Mum's car tearing around the court like she just

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Speaker 1: realized she'd rung the surgery, realized that I wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: She's like, oh no, where's Justin?

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Speaker 2: And I'm still here to tell the tale.

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Speaker 1: And in my eleven year old brain, I was thinking

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Speaker 1: which way would Mum drive to pick me up? So

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Speaker 1: I just walked back that way and sure enough she

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Speaker 1: found me.

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Speaker 2: I was okay, Well, I'm really proud say that I

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Speaker 2: have never forgotten our children. Not one of them has

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Speaker 2: a story to tell.

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Speaker 1: I reckon, you have forgotten everyone of our children asself.

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Speaker 2: I have so many times I'm perfect parenting.

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Speaker 1: What else we got?

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Speaker 2: So?

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Speaker 1: The two big ones are safety and logistics, and they're

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Speaker 1: kind of insolinc I want to talk about each of

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Speaker 1: those in a sec but there's two others that come

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Speaker 1: up a lot as well, the social connection side of things,

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Speaker 1: making sure the kids don't miss out and they get

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Speaker 1: to talk to their friends. And also this idea that

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Speaker 1: well we need to give the kids advice because they're

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Speaker 1: going to have on eventually, so they might as well

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Speaker 1: just learn how to manage themselves. Now, they're the things

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Speaker 1: that come up, So let me spend like thirty seconds

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Speaker 1: on each. Feel free to jump in, but I want

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Speaker 1: to dismantle each of those arguments if I may. First off,

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Speaker 1: and when it comes to safety, if you are really

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Speaker 1: worried about safety, I'm so sorry that that's the case,

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Speaker 1: because the world is generally safe for our children, especially

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Speaker 1: in Australia. The data bear it out. But nevertheless, if

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Speaker 1: you are that worried about it, I'm going to say this.

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Speaker 1: Your twelve year old does not need full internet access

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Speaker 1: and a smartphone for an emergency. What they need is

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Speaker 1: a dumb phone. Kids don't need smartphones, they need smart parents,

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Speaker 1: and smart parents give their kids dumb phones. Dumb phones exist,

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Speaker 1: they're cheap, they work, and a basic phone will solve

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Speaker 1: the safety issue. They don't need a smartphone when it

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Speaker 1: comes to logistics and coordinating things. As you've already said.

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Speaker 1: Kids will be okay if you're running late, and they'll

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Speaker 1: figure something out, or they'll ask somebody to call their

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Speaker 1: parents because they don't have a phone.

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Speaker 2: I think having a really clear backup plan, like if

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Speaker 2: you don't show up, what's the backup plan?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like that's one conversation once every six months, and

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Speaker 1: the kids will be across that.

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Speaker 2: You know, mum forgets you. It's a free like three

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Speaker 2: k walk to start walking. Just walk And that was

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Speaker 2: my mum's That was literally actually what my mum would

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Speaker 2: say if I didn't, if I'm not there, when you

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Speaker 2: get there, start walking and I'll pick you up along

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Speaker 2: the way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the way. I've got two solutions for

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Speaker 1: a number one, have a scheduled pickup time, like I

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Speaker 1: will meet you at this place at this time. It's

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Speaker 1: worked for decades, if not centuries, Right, this is what

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Speaker 1: parents have done throughout all of history until.

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Speaker 2: Reasons you've been forgotten and they've made it home.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean I know that someone in

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Speaker 1: their mind right now is going, oh yeah, but what

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Speaker 1: about and they're thinking of maybe Daniel Walkam or another

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Speaker 1: devastating story. The reason those stories stick in our minds

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Speaker 1: is because they are so unusual, they are so unique,

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Speaker 1: they're so unlikely. But the other one that I was

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Speaker 1: going to point to is, and we're not sponsored for this,

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Speaker 1: but the Space Talk watch. It means that you can

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Speaker 1: message your kids or you can make a quick phone

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Speaker 1: call and the basics are taken care of. So that's

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Speaker 1: what I would say about coordination. Your kids don't need

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Speaker 1: a fully Internet enabled device in their pocket so that

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Speaker 1: you can coordinate with them. When it comes to social connection,

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Speaker 1: I would actually argue that face to face friendships matter

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Speaker 1: much more than group chats every time, and group chats

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Speaker 1: cause more problems every time. And I mean, okay, quick

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Speaker 1: case in point. Last year, one of our daughters was

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Speaker 1: involved in a friendship drama that happened at school. The

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Speaker 1: group chats went bonkers. We sat down in advised her,

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Speaker 1: counseled with her, suggested that she removed herself from the

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Speaker 1: group chats. It was. It was just agonizing to watch

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Speaker 1: her make the decision to do it. She didn't want to,

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Speaker 1: but eventually she pulled herself out of the group chat

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Speaker 1: and guess what, the anxiety disappeared. She was a different

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Speaker 1: person within a day because she wasn't constantly checking the

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Speaker 1: group chat. So you've got competition in comparison, fear of

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Speaker 1: not being enough, cyberballing, fear just they don't need it.

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Speaker 1: They don't need it, And the last one about learning

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Speaker 1: to manage it. I mean the data is clear. Every

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Speaker 1: yearyear delay, you lower the odds of harm. The adolescent

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Speaker 1: brain just is not equipped for it. So saying now

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Speaker 1: know it's like it's like saying I want my children

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Speaker 1: to learn how to manage alcohol, So I'm going to

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Speaker 1: start giving my twelve year old vodka.

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Speaker 2: Or be you when you put it like that, it

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Speaker 2: just makes you feel a bit sick, to be honest.

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Speaker 1: So after the break, the research backed position on the

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Speaker 1: correct answer to when to give your child a smartphone,

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Speaker 1: plus our biggest tech mistake and what our standard position

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Speaker 1: on this question actually is, we're back. It's the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast with real parenting solutions. Every single day.

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Speaker 2: I have to ask the question, what does the data

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Speaker 2: say here? There is like what's the ideal scenario for parents?

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Speaker 1: So if you asked, as some researchers did from New

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Speaker 1: York University last year, two hundred experts around the world

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Speaker 1: on this topic, you would get general agreement that delay

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Speaker 1: is a good way to go. You would not get

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Speaker 1: any consensus at all as to the right age because

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Speaker 1: of family circumstances, because of personality, attributes of the child,

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Speaker 1: because of different contextual factors. Is your child and you're

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Speaker 1: a divergent Do they have an addictive kind of personality?

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Speaker 1: Are they the kind of person who's totally chill and

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Speaker 1: aren't even going to remember that they've got a phone? Like,

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Speaker 1: all of those factors come into it. But I want

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Speaker 1: to go back to the data that I shared at

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Speaker 1: the top of the pod, just really briefly. Pediatrics is

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Speaker 1: one of the most pressed diigious journals peer reviewed on

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Speaker 1: the planet. Last month, they published a paper that we

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Speaker 1: were linked to in the show notes where they followed

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Speaker 1: over ten thy twelve year olds and they found that

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Speaker 1: kids who got phones during their twelfth year had fifty

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Speaker 1: seven percent higher odds of clinical level mental health problems

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Speaker 1: by age thirteen, sixty two percent higher odds of insufficient sleep,

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Speaker 1: forty percent higher odds of obesity, and thirty one percent

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Speaker 1: higher odds of depression. Now, I'm not trying to scare monger.

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Speaker 1: You asked what the data shows. The data tells us

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Speaker 1: that kids prefrontal cortexes, which are involved in impulse control

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Speaker 1: and decision making, don't work particularly well. They're not mature

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Speaker 1: until their mid twenties. And basically every single year that

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Speaker 1: you delay is going to improve the odds. Earlier acquisition

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Speaker 1: of a smartphone equals worse outcomes.

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Speaker 2: So I wish we had known all of this back

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Speaker 2: when our eldest was old enough to have a phone.

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Speaker 2: And I look bad at her the introduction of a

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Speaker 2: mobile phone into her life, and it was the beginning

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Speaker 2: of all the hard that we experienced with her.

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Speaker 1: Yep, so oh sorry, And then we got it right

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Speaker 1: for the next couple of kids. But then we taught

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Speaker 1: at number five like she was twelve grade seven, and

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Speaker 1: we were like, ah, we've learned some good lessons, should

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Speaker 1: we fine? And I think that's actually the biggest parenting

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Speaker 1: mistake of our lives. Oh the drama that that has caused.

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Speaker 2: So with a lot of experience behind us, the new

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Speaker 2: family standard is when you can afford it and pay

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Speaker 2: for it yourself, it's.

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Speaker 1: Yours and that includes both the device itself and the

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Speaker 1: monthly contract that you have to pay to be on

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Speaker 1: the plan. And so here's why this works. It works

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Speaker 1: because it naturally delays acquisition.

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Speaker 2: Most twelve year olds kind of ford one thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: for a phone plus a fifty dollars monthly plan.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, or thirty or whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: And by the time they can, they usually have a

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Speaker 2: part time job. They're learning to say, and they're typically

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Speaker 2: around about fifteen, anywhere from fifteen to seventeen.

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Speaker 1: So interestingly, that ties in with Lonorskanazi, the Free Range

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Speaker 1: like the author of Free Range Kids, and they're like

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Speaker 1: grow movement. She says, once your kids are driving, that's

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Speaker 1: when they can get a phone. Lisa de Moor, one

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Speaker 1: of the United States most highly regarded child an adolescent psychologists,

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Speaker 1: says the same thing, once kids are driving. And I

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Speaker 1: actually think so as well, because then they can afford it.

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Speaker 1: But that's a point where you kind of do want

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Speaker 1: to be able to check in on them from a

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Speaker 1: safety point of view. Yeah, I still think that a

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Speaker 1: dumb phone will do it, even at that age. But

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Speaker 1: that's that's the first reason it delays acquisition.

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Speaker 2: But it also teaches them financial responsibility. They learned the

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Speaker 2: value of money, Like if their output of one thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars or more is their own. Yes, then it's going

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Speaker 2: to really hurt if they don't treat it well and.

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Speaker 1: They have to learn how to budget on goingly because

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Speaker 1: they know they're going to have that monthly plan that

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Speaker 1: they've got to pay for. You know what I like

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Speaker 1: about this as well, is it shifts the conversation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's not can I have a phone? It's how

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Speaker 1: can I earn money to buy a phone?

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Speaker 2: So this is going of how script a little bit here?

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Speaker 2: But what do you do with the very very motivated

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Speaker 2: twelve year old who manages to save money enough money

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Speaker 2: to buy a phone? Well that's tricky, right.

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Speaker 1: It is, And that is a bit of a spanner

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Speaker 1: in the works, right when you can afford it is

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Speaker 1: when you can buy one, I think that you just

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Speaker 1: sit down and say, well, there are some issues around this.

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Speaker 1: So there are certain phones that were okay with in

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Speaker 1: certain phones where not. And then you get them to

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Speaker 1: buy a dumb phone and they can start paying the

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Speaker 1: monthly planed and guess what, as a twelve year old,

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Speaker 1: no matter how motivated that motivated they are, when they're

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Speaker 1: paying thirty bucks a month or fifty bucks a month,

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Speaker 1: at some point they're probably going to say I don't

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Speaker 1: like paying all of this money when there's a home

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Speaker 1: phone attached to the wall or where there are these

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Speaker 1: other options. I just think, generally speaking, they're not going

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Speaker 1: to like it. But what I do like about it, regardless,

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Speaker 1: is that the kids are the motivation shifts from I'm

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Speaker 1: entitled to a phone. I have the right to a

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Speaker 1: phone to achievement. I want to earn this. I want

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Speaker 1: to be self sufficient. I want to figure this out.

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Speaker 1: So the other thing that I would say is if

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Speaker 1: you've got a child who is so motivated they're saving

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Speaker 1: up a thousand plus dollars to buy a phone, and

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Speaker 1: they're also paying for a plan, and they are twelve

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Speaker 1: or thirteen or fourteen, I think you're going to have

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Speaker 1: other problems and other benefits to having a child who's

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Speaker 1: like that. I think that's generally a good problem to have,

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Speaker 1: not a bad problem to have. And the last thing

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Speaker 1: that I've mentioned is that it creates built in consequences

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Speaker 1: like if they lose it or if they break it,

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Speaker 1: guess what, I'm not paying for it, kiddo, Like, this

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Speaker 1: is your phone, this is your responsibility. Can't afford the

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Speaker 1: monthly plan? Oh it looks like the service is going

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Speaker 1: to get suspended. No more parental bailouts. I just think

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Speaker 1: it teaches really good financial literacy. It opens up so

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Speaker 1: many good conversations.

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Speaker 2: So if your child doesn't have a smartphone yet, get

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Speaker 2: them one. Just don't do it so set a clear

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Speaker 2: standard for them. When you can pay for it, you

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Speaker 2: can have one, provide or natives that solve actual problems.

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Speaker 2: A basic phone for safety. So we've just reinstated the

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Speaker 2: landline in our home for safety and the kids think

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Speaker 2: it's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, love it. I would also say this if

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Speaker 1: you've got a child who does now have a smartphone

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Speaker 1: because you've jumped the gun and just thought, oh no,

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Speaker 1: for safety and for logistics and whatever, and.

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Speaker 2: Like us, you're starting to regret the decision.

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Speaker 1: Like we did with our fifth THRILD. Yeah, I would

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Speaker 1: say number one, don't panic. You have not ruined them yet,

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Speaker 1: but have really clear boundaries. Have conversations with your kids

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Speaker 1: around what those boundaries are. No phones in the bedroom

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Speaker 1: or in the bathroom. No phones during family meals or

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Speaker 1: on car rides unless it's a really long car ride,

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Speaker 1: and everyone agrees time limits on social media something. If

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Speaker 1: they're under sixteen, they shouldn't be on social media or anyway,

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Speaker 1: time limits on gaming and look for ways that you

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Speaker 1: can scale it back, if you can pull it back,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's kind of it. Hunt Like, ultimately,

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Speaker 1: former packed as parents, our kids aren't getting smartphones until

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Speaker 1: whatever age you decide. In our case too, you can

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Speaker 1: pay for it, and that you're the parent. You actually

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Speaker 1: do get to decide. Nobody's forcing you to go into

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Speaker 1: the shop and buy your children a phone. You do

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Speaker 1: get to decide.

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Speaker 2: I guess the big question for me is what's more

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Speaker 2: important my child's approval right now or their mental health

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Speaker 2: and wellbeing?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay. Bottom line, as we wrap this up later

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Speaker 1: is better and when they can afford it is a

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Speaker 1: framework that actually works. Thanks so much for listening to

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Mim Hammond's provides research, admin and other support

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Speaker 1: and if you want more info to make your family happier,

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Speaker 1: check out our socials or visit Happy Families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot a