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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, society places demands on our kids, and on our

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Speaker 2: teenagers and on our adult women, who now believe that

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Speaker 2: this is how I have to look, and I've got

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Speaker 2: to put in whatever effort is required to be there,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to be perpetually satisfied with my body

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Speaker 2: because nature drives my body in precisely the opposite direction

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Speaker 2: to society's ideal.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Most tuesdays on the Happy Families Podcast, we answer listener

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Speaker 2: questions and today one that's very close to our heart.

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Speaker 3: We have six daughters.

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Speaker 2: And while boys do struggle with this particular challenge, it

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Speaker 2: very much in our society is a girl issue.

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Speaker 4: Well, you highlighted your struggles with your.

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Speaker 2: With my pectoral says, so you're going to bring that

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Speaker 2: up again. I can't believe that for those of you

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Speaker 2: who are new to the podcast and have no idea

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Speaker 2: what Kylie's talking about. When I was a teenager, I

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Speaker 2: was looking.

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Speaker 3: In the mirror one day.

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Speaker 2: I was doing some flexing, as teenage boys tend to do,

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Speaker 2: and I noticed that my right peck was a different

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Speaker 2: shape and size to my left peck. I got so

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Speaker 2: worried about it, and I made an appointment to go

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Speaker 2: and see the doctor. The doctor laughed, thought I was

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Speaker 2: very funny and told me that was totally normal and

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Speaker 2: not to worry about it, and just to do more

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Speaker 2: push ups and both sides will catch up to each other.

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Speaker 2: That's not the question, though. The question is about girls

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Speaker 2: and how they see themselves.

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Speaker 3: Kylie. This one comes through from Kate.

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Speaker 4: She said, any advice on instilling body positivity and young girls.

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Speaker 4: I have a five year old daughter and she already

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Speaker 4: talks about fat tummies and not wanting to be fat.

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Speaker 4: I worry what this could lead to in years to come.

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Speaker 3: So there's a book called Beauty Sick.

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Speaker 2: It's by a wonderful researcher at Northwestern University in the

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Speaker 2: United States. It's got a great reputation at university. Her

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Speaker 2: research is brilliant. It's called Beauty Sick. Her name is

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Speaker 2: Renee Engeln. I recommend everyone read that book. I just

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Speaker 2: think it's the best book on body image stuff of

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Speaker 2: any book that I've ever seen. And in that book

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Speaker 2: she highlights that there is really just an abundance of

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Speaker 2: research showing that even five year old girls, well over

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Speaker 2: thirty percent of them are struggling with some aspect of

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Speaker 2: their body. They already feel insecure about their body at five.

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Speaker 2: What Kate's saying in this in this email to us

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Speaker 2: via podcast at Happy Families dot com, do I you

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Speaker 2: is not altogether unusual, as sad as it is. I

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Speaker 2: also found some Aussie research. This research comes from Latrobe University,

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Speaker 2: the Child Body Image Development Study and Atlantroube University. They

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Speaker 2: found that thirty eight percent thirty eight percent of four

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Speaker 2: year old girls in Australia a dissatisfied with their body.

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Speaker 3: Why is it so high?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's really what I think we should talk about

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Speaker 2: for the rest of the podcast and what we can

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Speaker 2: do about it. I think that it's so high for

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Speaker 2: a few reasons. Number One, society's expectation. If you look

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Speaker 2: at everything from Margo Robbie in the Barbie movie, if

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Speaker 2: you look at any popular culture, you just don't see

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Speaker 2: normal and I'm using the word normal in inverted commas.

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Speaker 3: You don't see normal.

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Speaker 2: Body shapes represented. You turn on the news at night,

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Speaker 2: you turn on the TV shows in the morning, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter what mean you consume. All you see is

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Speaker 2: one body type for females. It's so hard to find

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Speaker 2: quote unquote normal body types for females. Society is ideal.

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Speaker 2: And I wrote about this in my book Misconnection. So

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Speaker 2: if anyone has a tween or a teen girl and

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Speaker 2: body image issues are coming up, I was astonished. I

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Speaker 2: was absolutely astonished at the overwhelming number of girls who

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Speaker 2: told me in my surveys and in my interviews with them,

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Speaker 2: the body image was the hardest thing in their lives,

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Speaker 2: the thing that they worried about the most. So many

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Speaker 2: of them were saying it. And it's not just them.

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Speaker 2: You're sort of looking at me and shaking your head

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Speaker 2: as I'm saying it. But when we were dating, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you remember this or not, we went

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Speaker 2: on our first day. We were at Terrigle Beach and

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Speaker 2: there was a charcoal chicken at Teregle Beach. I said,

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Speaker 2: let's go and have a picnic. That's what I've got

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Speaker 2: planned for our first day. We're going to go and

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Speaker 2: sit over at Terygle Haven, sit on the grass, watch

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Speaker 2: the water, watch the waves.

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Speaker 3: Beautiful place.

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Speaker 2: Let's go and get some charcoal chicken. So we've walked

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Speaker 2: in and do you remember what I ordered?

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Speaker 4: You ordered a whole chicken and some chips, yes, which.

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Speaker 3: I thought was for both of us.

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Speaker 2: Correct, And after I'd ordered the chicken, and these were

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Speaker 2: big chickens like these were size twenty chickens. They're not

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Speaker 2: like the little ones that you buy from Walworths these

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Speaker 2: days that cost twelve bucks.

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Speaker 3: See bachelor's handbag.

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Speaker 2: This was a full sized chicken. You then looked at

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Speaker 2: me as I said, what would you like? And you said,

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Speaker 2: I'll just have a little bit of what you're having,

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Speaker 2: and I said, no, you won't, that's my lunch. And

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Speaker 2: so you had to order your own. And I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you remember this conversation or not, but when

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Speaker 2: we discussed it a little bit down the track, maybe

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Speaker 2: we were even married and in our first year or

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Speaker 2: two of marriage, and we were talking about that first

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Speaker 2: date and you told me that on previous dates you

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Speaker 2: just didn't eat. And you're not a superficial kind of

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Speaker 2: I need to make sure that I always look good

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Speaker 2: kind of person. You always look wonderful, but you're not

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Speaker 2: always sort of worrying about how you look. You look beautiful,

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Speaker 2: you look presentable, and you go and get on with

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Speaker 2: your day. My recollection of the conversation was that you

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Speaker 2: said that when you went on dates, you didn't eat

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Speaker 2: in front of your dates because you felt uncomfortable eating

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Speaker 2: and you didn't want to look like you ate a

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Speaker 2: lot of food, whereas I'm eating a whole chicken and

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Speaker 2: a bag of chips, and you were like, I can

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Speaker 2: eat whatever I want with this guy, and he's.

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Speaker 3: Not going to judge me at all.

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Speaker 2: So there's this societal expectation the girls are going to

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Speaker 2: look a certain way, eat a certain way. When I

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Speaker 2: was doing parental guidance, I remember Ali Langdon would get

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Speaker 2: into the studio at least an hour before me for

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Speaker 2: hair and makeup, because that's how.

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Speaker 3: Long it took.

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Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, what a waste of a life. How

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Speaker 2: many other things could you do with that hour, Like

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Speaker 2: how many books could you read? How much exercise could

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Speaker 2: you do? How much connection with other people who matter

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Speaker 2: in your life could you be involved in? But oh no,

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Speaker 2: we have to look a certain way. So that's a

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Speaker 2: long way of saying society places demands on our kids

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Speaker 2: and on our teenagers and on our adult women who

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Speaker 2: now believe that this is how I have to look,

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Speaker 2: and I've got to put in whatever effort is required

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Speaker 2: to be there. And I'm going to be perpetually satisfied

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Speaker 2: with my body because nature drives my body in precisely

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Speaker 2: the opposite direction to society's ideal.

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Speaker 4: But I'm an eighteen year old having those thought processes.

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Speaker 2: This is a five year old old. I remember when

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Speaker 2: we were kids, my little sisters. I've got twin sisters,

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Speaker 2: they're four years younger than me, and I remember. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I've still got the photos. They would run around the

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Speaker 2: backyard just wearing their swimming shorts or their bikini bottom

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Speaker 2: kind of things, but with no tops. Because you know,

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Speaker 2: little kids, you don't worry about dressing them fullyck just.

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Speaker 3: It's a hassle.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why they did. They just didn't wear it.

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Speaker 2: They were four years old, three years old in the backyard.

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Speaker 2: They were in the backyard, but they had these it

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Speaker 2: I call it a sticky addy tummy. Do you remember, Like,

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Speaker 2: little kids are not worried about this stuff. But the

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Speaker 2: research shows that by the time they're four or five,

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Speaker 2: about a third of them are maybe even up to

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Speaker 2: a half of them. By the time they're five, six, seven,

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Speaker 2: and it's happening because of society expectations. And it's also

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Speaker 2: happening because this is something else that I discovered when

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Speaker 2: I was writing misconnection. There's a relationship between how you

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Speaker 2: look and how popular you are at school five, not

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Speaker 2: so much at five, but certainly as we move into

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Speaker 2: the tween and teams.

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Speaker 4: Really and I expect that, but there is a clause

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Speaker 4: of what society does.

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Speaker 3: There is a pushdown.

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Speaker 4: I just I'm really reeling in the fact that a

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Speaker 4: five year old's even conscious.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you a couple of other reasons.

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Speaker 2: You said, why is this happening? Number one, I'm saying society.

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Speaker 2: Number two, I'm actually going to say it comes back

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Speaker 2: to us as parents, and it's a really hard thing

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Speaker 2: to say. I'm not blaming and shaming parents. We often

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Speaker 2: do this without being aware of it, but we make

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Speaker 2: a big deal, Oh you look so pretty in that.

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Speaker 2: Oh what are you wearing that for? That doesn't look

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Speaker 2: very nice at all. Or we look in the mirror

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Speaker 2: and we say, oh, my goodness, my thighs. I can't

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Speaker 2: believe what's happening to me. I'm getting so old. Look

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Speaker 2: at these wrinkles. Or we catch up with friends, And

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Speaker 2: what's the first thing we say when we see friends

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Speaker 2: that we haven't seen in a while?

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Speaker 3: You look great, or Wow, you've lost weight, or.

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Speaker 2: Like, we've got to stop talking about people's physical appearance

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Speaker 2: when we meet them. When we see them, just say,

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Speaker 2: it's so good to see you. I've missed you. Tell

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Speaker 2: me what you've been up to leave the physical comments

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Speaker 2: out of the conversation, because our kids hear every single

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Speaker 2: physical comment that we make about ourselves, about them, or

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Speaker 2: about our friends, and they internalize that. They get this

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Speaker 2: message that how I look matters. So the first thing

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Speaker 2: is societal expectation media. Second thing, it comes from their friends,

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Speaker 2: their peer groups, even at younger ages. And third, it

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Speaker 2: comes from us and what we're saying even though we

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Speaker 2: don't mean it, even though we're well intentioned, even though

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Speaker 2: we have no idea that we're doing it. And I

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Speaker 2: would also add when we make comments about what they're

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Speaker 2: eating and how it's going to affect them if we

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Speaker 2: are not very very careful. Research shows really clearly that

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Speaker 2: kids who are told at the age of sort of seven,

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Speaker 2: eight nine that they're looking a little bit chubby, they

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Speaker 2: are significantly more likely to have an eating challenge and

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Speaker 2: a weight problem, to be overweight and or obese by

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Speaker 2: the time they're in their late teens early twenties. Like,

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Speaker 2: the research on this topic is robust and there is

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Speaker 2: a lot of it.

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Speaker 4: So Kate really wants some answers yet on how she

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Speaker 4: can help her five year old, because any parent who's

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Speaker 4: dealing with this with a young child inevitably as looking

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Speaker 4: to the future and thinking this is not going to

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Speaker 4: go well if I don't kind of curb this now.

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Speaker 2: I want to very gently ask you to share an

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Speaker 2: experience that one of our kids had a little while ago.

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Speaker 2: She was a little bit older than this five year old,

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Speaker 2: but I think that it very much applies.

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Speaker 4: So some time ago, one of our daughters came home

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Speaker 4: from school and she literally fell into my arms, sobbing. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and her big sister picked her up, and she looked

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Speaker 4: at me and she was like, I don't know, what

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Speaker 4: does happen? So I took her aside and I spent

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Speaker 4: some time with her, and I kind of said, it

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Speaker 4: looks like you had a really, really hard day, and

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Speaker 4: she said yeah. She said there was a boy at

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Speaker 4: school and she used the word fat shamed me. And

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Speaker 4: I said, what do you mean? And so she proceeded

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Speaker 4: to tell me what he had said about her, and

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Speaker 4: she was just heartbroken. I wanted to know who this

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Speaker 4: boy was, whether he was a friend of hers, whether

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Speaker 4: or not she associated with him normally, would she go

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Speaker 4: to him for advice? Would she spend time with him

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Speaker 4: in any other setting? And she acknowledged that Number one,

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Speaker 4: he was in a different grade. He wasn't a friend,

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Speaker 4: He wasn't somebody that she would talk to ever. And

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Speaker 4: I just acknowledged to her, then, if he's not a

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Speaker 4: person that you would go to if you needed advice

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Speaker 4: or you needed, you know, kind of help with something,

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Speaker 4: why would you be concerned by what he thinks about you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're not going to go to them for advice,

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Speaker 2: why would you go to them for criticism that.

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Speaker 3: Kind of idea?

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Speaker 4: Why would you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Why would you put so much power on what he thinks?

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Speaker 3: And yet it still affects our kids?

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Speaker 4: Oh? Doesn't it just devastating.

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Speaker 3: I remember having a conversation with her. I mean, she's

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Speaker 3: went to bed and cried for hours and hours. It

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Speaker 3: really really.

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Speaker 4: Affects She didn't want to go back to school.

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Speaker 3: You never want to go back to that school again.

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Speaker 3: I feel awful.

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Speaker 2: And I still remember sitting with her and saying it

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Speaker 2: was a comment about her thighs. Let's just think about

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Speaker 2: your thighs for a second. What did they say about

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Speaker 2: you as a person? And she said that I'm fat

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Speaker 2: And I said, well, that may or may not be true,

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Speaker 2: but even if it said that, what does that say

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Speaker 2: about you as a person? And she said, I don't

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Speaker 2: know what you mean. I said, well, what does it

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Speaker 2: say about who you are?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 2: What does it say about what kind of friend you are?

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Speaker 2: And she looked at me strange, and I said, what

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Speaker 2: do your thighs say about what kind of friend you

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Speaker 2: are or what kind of friend you can be? And

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Speaker 2: she kind of pulled a funny face and said nothing.

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Speaker 3: And I said, that's right.

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Speaker 2: And what does it say about your academic potential? What

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Speaker 2: do your thighs tell you about your academic potential? And

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Speaker 2: she was like nothing. I said, what do they say

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Speaker 2: about And I sort of rattled off a range of

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Speaker 2: different things where the quality or size of her thighs

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Speaker 2: mean nothing at all to the rest of her life.

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Speaker 2: I said, okay, so what do they say about your

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Speaker 2: value as a person? What do your thighs say about

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Speaker 2: how much I love you? And she just burst into tears.

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Speaker 2: She's like nothing, And I said, I love you. I

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Speaker 2: don't care how big your thighs are right how little

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Speaker 2: your thighs are, it's irrelevant. And then I brought you

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Speaker 2: into the conversation. I said, do you think that I

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Speaker 2: would love Mum more if her thighs were different to

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Speaker 2: what they are right now?

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Speaker 3: And she looked at me strangely and she's like, ah.

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Speaker 2: No, No, I wouldn't I love Mom because she's Mum.

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Speaker 2: Didn't marry Mom for her thighs, like one way or

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Speaker 2: the other. I married you for you, not for your thighs.

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Speaker 2: And we had this conversation, and I think that between

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Speaker 2: your conversation and my conversation, she sort of started to

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Speaker 2: work through it and process it and.

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Speaker 3: Realize the stuff that matters.

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Speaker 2: If you've got a four year old, a five year old,

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Speaker 2: a six year old, a teenager who's struggling with body

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Speaker 2: image number one, if you wouldn't go to the person

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Speaker 2: who's made a critical comment about you for advice, why

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Speaker 2: would you go to them for criticism? But even if

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Speaker 2: it's the if you're carrying a mirror with you everywhere

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Speaker 2: you go on your inside. That is, everywhere you go,

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Speaker 2: you're seeing yourself that way. Our kids need to know

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Speaker 2: that they've got to stop taking criticism from themselves. They

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Speaker 2: wouldn't speak like that about their friends. They shouldn't speak

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Speaker 2: like that about themselves and their thighs or their belly,

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Speaker 2: say nothing about their value as a person or their

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Speaker 2: potential as a person. I think those couple of conversations

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Speaker 2: are just so important for our kids.

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Speaker 4: I remember being in a class when I was a

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Speaker 4: teenager and the teacher pulled out a twenty dollar bill,

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Speaker 4: brand new, clean, beautiful, crisp before plastic.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it has a beautiful smell.

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Speaker 4: It was a paper note.

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Speaker 2: So people who are young you may not know this,

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Speaker 2: but money used to actually be paper before it became

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Speaker 2: the plastic stuff we've got. My mum used to say

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Speaker 2: back in those days. My mum has always had a

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Speaker 2: thing for money, and she used to say, if I

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Speaker 2: ever die, just get a couple of one hundred.

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Speaker 4: Dollar notes and stick them over myey.

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Speaker 3: Stick them over my notes, and I'll come back to

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Speaker 3: life for sure.

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Speaker 2: And the smell of money back in the eighties, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it had such a good smell anyway.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, there's a beautiful, clean note. And he asked us

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Speaker 4: how much this note was worth, and we all said

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Speaker 4: twenty dollars, and he then proceeded to completely smush it

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Speaker 4: into a ball. It was completely gone, like I couldn't see.

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Speaker 4: It was hidden in.

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Speaker 3: His fistep and all scrunched up, all.

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Speaker 4: Scrunched up, and then he even dropped it on the

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Speaker 4: floor and he gave it a good stomp to make

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Speaker 4: sure it was really really crunched, and he pulled it

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Speaker 4: up and he showed the class and he unraveled it

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Speaker 4: so we could see it again. It's no longer nice

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Speaker 4: and clean, is it. It's all like completely creased. And

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Speaker 4: he asked us how much it was worth, right, and

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Speaker 4: we kind of said twenty dollars, But it's completely different

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Speaker 4: to what we first saw, and yet its value hasn't changed.

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Speaker 4: And it was such a powerful kind of visual just

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Speaker 4: as teenageers to see that regardless of what we look like,

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Speaker 4: our physical being doesn't change our innate worth. And if

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Speaker 4: we can instill that in our children, wow, And.

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Speaker 2: We've got to do it intentionally and explicitly. They've got

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Speaker 2: to know we love you no matter what and your

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Speaker 2: thighs are your belly or your face or whatever it is,

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Speaker 2: got nothing to do, nothing to do with your value.

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Speaker 4: I think the other thing is if all we ever

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Speaker 4: focus on is what everybody sees, then we're actually quite

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Speaker 4: shallow on what we can accomplish, because what we actually

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Speaker 4: need to be teaching our kids is to understand and

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Speaker 4: give thanks for what their bodies can do.

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Speaker 2: We're out of time, but I want to share two

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Speaker 2: more quick ideas, maybe three more quick ideas. Now I'm

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Speaker 2: going to summarize everything we've talked about into a really

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Speaker 2: quick snapshot. Number one, who is this person to you?

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Speaker 2: Would you go to them for advice? If not, don't

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Speaker 2: take criticism. Number two, stop walking around with the mirror

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Speaker 2: inside you. Number three. As parents, we've got to watch

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Speaker 2: our words to our children, to ourselves and to our friends.

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Speaker 2: Number four, you just said it. Focus with your kids

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Speaker 2: not on how they look, but what they can do.

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Speaker 2: Stop worrying about what your body looks like and start

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Speaker 2: focusing on what it can do what it does.

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Speaker 3: Next, the worthiness thing. What's it say about you?

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Speaker 2: About your potential, about your capacity, about your happiness, about

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Speaker 2: your academic or friendship or whatever it is. And last,

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Speaker 2: but not least, I want to say a quick word

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Speaker 2: about photoshop and the media literacy workshops and comments that

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Speaker 2: we see quite often on this topic. People make a

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Speaker 2: really big deal about it, not usually with five year olds,

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Speaker 2: but certainly with older kids.

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Speaker 3: I've just got to teach them to be literate media literate,

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Speaker 3: so that.

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Speaker 2: They know that it's photoshopped, and they know that they've

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Speaker 2: got the best hair dresses and the best makeup artists,

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Speaker 2: and they've got the best wardrobe designers, and everything's designed

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Speaker 2: so that you look a certain way. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: actually suggest that the research does not support that conversation.

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Speaker 4: Because I just want the best hairdresses and the best

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Speaker 4: wardrobe guys.

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Speaker 2: It's still aspirational. It's still aspirational, and you're still focusing

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Speaker 2: on looks. It's much better to just let it go,

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Speaker 2: stop making a big deal about it, and focus on

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Speaker 2: other things.

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Speaker 4: One more quick thing, because I forgot yep. I have

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Speaker 4: an absolutely favorite children's book that we were gifted when

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Speaker 4: our children were.

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Speaker 3: Very very young. Youah, probably three or four, completely dog ed.

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Speaker 4: It's got some ripped pages with sellotape on them, but

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Speaker 4: it is just such a beautiful book, especially for a

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Speaker 4: five year old. It's called I Like Myself by Karen Beaumont,

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Speaker 4: and it just is a delightful, hilarious book about all

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Speaker 4: of the possibilities. We've got, you know, horns protruding from

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Speaker 4: our nose. We've got purple polka dots, We've got massive

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Speaker 4: blue lips, We've got you know, stripey here, we've got

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Speaker 4: spikes running down our back. All of these different things

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Speaker 4: which are obviously completely convoluted and not true at all,

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Speaker 4: but it just helps us to recognize that we can

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Speaker 4: like ourselves no matter what, because it's what our bodies

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Speaker 4: can do, not what our bodies look like.

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Speaker 3: Okay, we really hope that this has been a useful conversation.

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Speaker 3: I've loved it. I think that it's been a really

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Speaker 3: important discussion.

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Speaker 2: Body image issues, a whole lot of solutions, and my

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Speaker 2: book Misconnection, Why Your teenage Daughter Hates You Expects the

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Speaker 2: World Needs to Talk, has an incredible chapter on all

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Speaker 2: of this kind of content.

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Speaker 3: It may be helpful for you. Misconnection.

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Speaker 2: It's available wherever you buy your books and at Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com dot You also check out Beauty Sick.

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Speaker 2: Beauty Sick by Renee and Gelon phenomenal on one of

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Speaker 2: my all time favorite books. I would put it list

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Speaker 2: my top ten favorite books of all time. Just brilliant stuff.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rowland for

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media, with Craig Bruce, our executive producer. For more

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Speaker 2: information about making your family happier, please visit us at

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Speaker 2: happy families dot com.

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Speaker 1: Do