1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: Bungelung Cargoton woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: All right, ready, good morning and welcome to the Daily 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 2: OS and happy Friday. It's the twentieth of January. I'm 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 2: Sam and I'm Tom. Tom. Lovely to have you. I 10 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: think this is our first podcast for twenty twenty three, 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 2: together the dynamic duo. 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 3: To bespectacle journalists from the Daily Ods. Sam, It's nice 13 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 3: to be here. We're here, Sam, today, I'm here to 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 3: talk to you about Australia's gambling problem and in particular about. 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 4: Pokey's turns out we're the biggest gamblers on Earth. 16 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 3: Figures showing gamblers are losing more than a million dollars 17 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 3: every hour. 18 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: Highest poker machine losses of anywhere. 19 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 3: In the world in Australia. Often spoken about as the 20 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 3: equivalent to gun control in the US, in that it's 21 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,559 Speaker 3: a kind of uniquely Australian social blight that we really 22 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 3: struggle to get a handle on. And as the New 23 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 3: South Wales election looms, it is shaping up to be 24 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 3: one of the big focus areas there. So in today's 25 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 3: Deep Dive, we're going to take a look at what 26 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 3: both sides of politics are opposing. 27 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 2: Looking forward to that the first time. What's making headlines 28 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: this morning. 29 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 3: Jacinda R Deurn has announced that she'll resign as the 30 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 3: Prime Minister of New Zealand as soon as a replacement 31 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 3: can be chosen. It's a head of an election in 32 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 3: New Zealand later this year. Jasinda ar Durn said she 33 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 3: doesn't have enough in the tank for another four years. 34 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 5: I want to finish with a simple thank you to 35 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 5: New Zealanders for giving me this opportunity to serve and 36 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 5: to take on what has and will always be the 37 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 5: greatest role of my life. 38 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: The unemployment rate for December remained at three point five percent. 39 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 2: That's according to the latest figures from the Australian Bureau 40 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: of Statistics. The rate of underemployment, so we're talking here 41 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: about people who didn't work as much as they wanted 42 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: to rose by zero point two percentage points to six 43 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 2: point one percent. 44 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 3: The Secretary General of the United Nations, Antonio Guterrez, has 45 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 3: said that he sees no end to the Russia Ukraine 46 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 3: War in the immediate future. 47 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: I do not see a chance at the present moment 48 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 2: to have a serious. 49 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 6: Peace negotiation between the two partners. 50 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: And your Friday good news. Teachers who have worked in 51 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 2: remote Australia for at least four years will be eligible 52 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 2: for a student debt reduction cut. It's expected to support 53 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 2: two thousand teachers this year with on average thirty five 54 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: thousand dollars worth of debt cut each and this is 55 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: all part of the federal government's plan to attract and 56 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 2: retain high quality teachers in remote Australia. 57 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 3: So SAM gambling is a massive problem in Australia. According 58 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: to the latest data, we lose about twenty five billion 59 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 3: a year and the biggest source of gambling losses is 60 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 3: losses from Pokey's, which accounts for slightly more than half. 61 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: Australia is kind of the Pokey's capital of the world. Really, 62 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 3: seventy five percent of the world's Pokey's outside of casinos 63 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 3: are in Australia and that outside of casino's qualification is 64 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 3: a really important part of understanding the Pokey's landscape in Australia. 65 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 3: What makes Australia unique is the Pokeys aren't just in 66 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 3: licensed gambling venues. So the real Pokey's capital of the 67 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 3: world is in Las Vegas. But you'll find them more 68 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 3: than casinos in Australia, with the exception of Western Australia. 69 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 3: The key thing is that they are in pubs and 70 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 3: clubs and venues across states. That's part of why they're 71 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 3: such a big deal and it's part of what makes 72 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 3: Australia an international outlife. 73 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: It always comes up in those lists of what a 74 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: country does most more than anyone in the world. I mean, 75 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: you know, Switzerland has chocolate and quite often gambling is 76 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: our thing on the list, which is really sad. Why 77 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 2: don't we hone in on one particular angle to this 78 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: very complex topic and talk about Pokey's in New South 79 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: Wales because this is shaping up to be a big 80 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 2: issue coming into the March state election. 81 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, so New South Wales probably has it worst of all. 82 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say across Australia it's got 83 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 3: the highest losses per person of any Australian jurisdiction. It's 84 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 3: home to about ninety thousand machines, so that's nearly half 85 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 3: the Pokey's in the country. It was the first state 86 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 3: to legalize them back in the fifties and in the 87 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 3: nineties under Labour Premier Bob Carr they were allowed into 88 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 3: New South Wales hotels. So it's really a long running 89 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 3: story in New South Wales of the role of Pokey's. 90 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: People who live in Sydney might be familiar with sort 91 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 3: of walking around pretty much anywhere you go in Sydney 92 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 3: and seeing signs advertising VIP lounges and Pokeys in many venues. 93 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 3: It's certainly a big part of the landscape in the 94 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 3: city of Sydney and across New South Wales. And according 95 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 3: to the latest figures, these machines turnover and this is 96 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 3: just this number. I can't really wrap my head around 97 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 3: one hundred billion dollars a year. And the New South 98 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 3: Wales state government actually collects money from Pokey's, more than 99 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 3: one billion dollars a year it collects in taxes on 100 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 3: pokey So again just really embedded across Australia, but particularly 101 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 3: in the state of New South Wales a. 102 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: Bit of a funny situation where the state is generating 103 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: a billion dollars a year but Australians are losing billions 104 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: of dollars a year. How has the New South Wales 105 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 2: government been managing that risk and that tension for people 106 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: up until now? 107 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 3: So like in many states, New South Wales has had 108 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 3: some rules around I guess kind of the regulation of 109 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 3: where pokey machines can be and in particular some limits 110 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 3: and some hoops the venues have to jump through to 111 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 3: be able to acquire new pokey machines, but generally speaking 112 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 3: the restrictions are fairly soft at the moment. Part of 113 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 3: why it's such a big problem, I guess that's why 114 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 3: there's been this ongoing discussion in the state. As well 115 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 3: as being a problem gambling issue, it's also kind of 116 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 3: related to crime and this came up last year when 117 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 3: the New South Wales Crime Commission recommended changes to Pokey's laws, 118 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 3: really so much as a problem gambling measure, but actually 119 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 3: to deal with the amount of dirty money, money from 120 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 3: the proceeds of crime that was being used in Pokey's. 121 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 6: Drug dealing, as you'd appreciate, is a cash based economy, 122 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 6: and poke machine gambling currently is a cash based transaction. 123 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 6: So the two have found each other. We need to 124 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 6: break that next. 125 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: So that there was Michael Barnes, the new South Wales 126 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 3: Crime Commissioner, speaking to the ABC last year and the 127 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 3: point that he's making there, as I say, is about 128 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 3: dirty money in Pokey's, people spending their criminal gotten gains 129 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 3: in pokey machines, either to clean it or simply just 130 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 3: to gamble. And the commission really presented the solution to that. 131 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 3: Their key recommendation was to implement statewide cashless gaming. 132 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 2: Can you tell me a little bit more about what 133 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: cash less gaming actually looks like. 134 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 3: So obviously, if you're not going to use cash used cards, 135 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 3: cards that you preload money into, and you have to 136 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 3: use these cards to gamble. Basically there's two reasons that 137 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 3: that is often recommended. One of those reasons again comes 138 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 3: back to this idea of dirty money and how do 139 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 3: you avoid dirty money in Pokey's Because cashless cards make 140 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 3: it a little bit easier to trace. You put a 141 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 3: twenty dollar note into a machine, there's not really any 142 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 3: way apart from maybe looking at a security camera or 143 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 3: figuring out where that money came from. But on a 144 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 3: cashless card, you can trace it. It can be a 145 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: little bit easier for law enforcement to keep track of things, 146 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 3: and it can also just be a little bit easier 147 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 3: for clubs and venues themselves to keep an eye on 148 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 3: who's putting cash through those machines. That's why the New 149 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 3: South Wales Crime Commission recommended it to crack down on 150 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 3: this sort of crime problem. But the other reason that 151 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 3: cashless cards are quite an important topic of discussion is 152 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 3: because they can also be a way to address problem gambling, 153 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 3: and that is basically by using the cashless cards in 154 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 3: combination with what's called a mandatory pre commitment scheme. A 155 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 3: mandatory pre commitment scheme basically means that to be able 156 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 3: to gamble, when you go into a venue, you have 157 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 3: to say in advance how much money you're willing to lose, 158 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 3: and then that's binding. Once you go into the casino 159 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 3: and you lose one hundred dollars if that's the limit 160 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 3: you've set, then you get cut off and you can't 161 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 3: use the machine again, you know, for that day or 162 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 3: in that particular session. And generally speaking, there's a lot 163 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 3: of evidence where these cards are used around the world 164 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 3: that they actually help to limit gambling losses. I guess 165 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 3: when you think about it, you know, when you're in 166 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 3: there and you think maybe I just spend one more 167 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: time and I'll win, people can end up losing a 168 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 3: lot more money than maybe they wanted to, and so 169 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 3: requiring them to make that commitment before they go into 170 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 3: the room, that's one of the reasons it's thought to 171 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 3: crack down on real problem gambling. It's in use in 172 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 3: Norway and Sweden and the system of mandatory there, but 173 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 3: in Australia it's pretty rare. There are some cashlest card 174 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 3: systems in operation in Victoria and Queensland, but they're optional, 175 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 3: and that's really important because when they're optional, I guess 176 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 3: that kind of at least the evidence suggests that that 177 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 3: dilutes the way that they can reduce problem gambling. Victoria's 178 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 3: own evaluation found basically they just weren't being used and 179 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 3: that when they're not mandatory, they lose their effectiveness there. 180 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: Generally speaking, gambling advocates talk about a mandatory pre commitment 181 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: scheme as the gold standard. Last year we got some 182 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 3: significant movement on this Tasmania. The Tasmanian Liberal government, with 183 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 3: the support of Labor announced that it would move towards 184 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 3: a mandatory system. About a decade ago, the federal government 185 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 3: considered one nationwide, but it eventually scrapped that. But now 186 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 3: we're talking about it in New South Wales. So the 187 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 3: New South Wales Crime Commission delivered this recommendation for a 188 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 3: cash list system, obviously looking at some of those examples 189 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 3: of the gold standard that you've just cited. What's the 190 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 3: reaction been like from the New South Wales government. So 191 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 3: Premier Dominic Perrete for a while now, really since that 192 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 3: recommendation was made, has been supportive of the idea of 193 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 3: casualst gaming. He said last year it's not a matter 194 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 3: of if we do it, but how we do it. 195 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 3: There's been some opposition within his own party and the 196 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 3: status of that has been a little bit unclear, but 197 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 3: it came into the news again in the last week 198 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 3: or so because Dominic Perite started talking about it again. 199 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 7: It very clear what the destination is, and that is 200 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 7: cashless gaming in New Southwest. We cannot continue the same 201 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 7: way we are as I've seen in the past. We 202 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 7: cannot have a situation where we are profiting of other 203 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 7: people's misery. 204 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 3: So we don't have the formal policy yet, but we 205 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 3: have had I guess a renewed push from the premiere 206 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 3: that has prompted suggestions now that he's going to not 207 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 3: only implement cashless gaming but potentially also go further to 208 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 3: a mandatory pre commitment policy. 209 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 2: And have we heard much from the opposition on this point. 210 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: I mean it's a lead up to the elections, so 211 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,359 Speaker 2: I'm sure that we've heard a different perspective. 212 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 3: Yes, Well, here's where it gets interesting. So Labor does 213 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 3: not support implementing cashless gaming and by extension a mandatory 214 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 3: pre commitment policy. They're instead proposing a trial, a trial 215 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 3: of cashless cards in five hundred machines, that's five hundred 216 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 3: out of ninety thousand in the state. But they do 217 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 3: not support cashless gaming. They've suggested that there are concerns 218 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 3: about the costs for venues and that there's more evidence 219 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 3: that's required before that step could be taken. This was 220 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 3: the leader of the New South Wales Labor Party, Chris Mins, 221 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 3: announcing that policy earlier this week. 222 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 4: We will announce today a comprehensive trial of cashless gaming 223 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 4: in this state, as well as a suite of other 224 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 4: measures designed to deal with problem gambling and elicit behavior 225 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 4: in the gaming industry in this state. 226 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 3: Now, alongside that, Labor has announced a number of other 227 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 3: poke's policies. I guess if you like to kind of 228 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 3: balance out the fact that this big cashless gaming policy 229 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 3: that peratee suggesting is not on Labour's list. So some 230 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 3: of the things that Labour's proposing, they include reducing the 231 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 3: maximum that you can put into a machine from five thousand. 232 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 3: Five thousand dollars is the current limit in New South Wales. 233 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 3: It's the highest limit anywhere in the country, reducing that 234 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 3: down to five hundred dollars, and reducing the total number 235 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 3: of machines in the state. Labour's also promising to ban 236 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 3: the promotion of gambling venues, including that vip lounge signing 237 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 3: that I mentioned earlier that Sydney siders may know well, 238 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 3: and to ban political don't nations from machine operating venues. Finally, 239 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 3: Labour's suggesting allowing third party people, so say a relative 240 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 3: or a friend, to apply to ban someone from accessing 241 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 3: machines and for that to be enforced using existing facial 242 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 3: recognition technology. That's an idea that's supported by clubs New 243 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 3: South Wales and. 244 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: I also know there's a lot of people who dedicate 245 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: their lives to research and advocacy in this space. What 246 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 2: are advocates saying about these two policies in front of us? 247 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 3: Well, I suppose, as we mentioned earlier, it's the mandatory 248 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 3: pre commitment scheme that's generally considered the gold standard. Prominent 249 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: anti gambling advocate Tim Costello has been that in force, 250 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 3: suggesting that that's a really really important idea and encouraging 251 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 3: the government to go further in that direction, and has 252 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 3: been very critical of labor for not doing the same. 253 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 3: While he said that some of the aspects on Labour's 254 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 3: list were, you know, were positive steps forward, he was 255 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 3: very very critical really of no steps towards cashlest cards 256 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 3: or mandatory pre commitment, saying that Labour's policy was written 257 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 3: by the club's industry. So a pretty scathing response from 258 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 3: him and from a number of people in the sector. 259 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 3: We're going to take a short break, will be right, brible, 260 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 3: So I just want to zoom out and kind of 261 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 3: take stock of where we are in this discussion. It 262 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 3: seems like the advocates are calling for caushalist gambling. It 263 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 3: seems like carshalist gambling is working in other parts of 264 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 3: the world, and it seems like we've got a clear 265 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 3: issue in Australia with Pokey's. Why is this contentious still? 266 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 3: Then yeah, it's hard for me to answer this question 267 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 3: without sounding really cynical, Sam, So let me just say 268 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 3: that in advance. But sometimes in politics you do just 269 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 3: kind of have to follow the money. And it is 270 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 3: a well known and well publicized fact that the gambling 271 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 3: industry is a major political donort of both parties, and 272 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 3: that everywhere you look across Australia in different states and territories, 273 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 3: and at the federal level, both the Labor and Liberal 274 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 3: parties and the National Party, they receive a lot of 275 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 3: donations from the gambling industry. And the gambling industry has 276 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 3: a lot of sway and generally speaking, when you speak 277 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,079 Speaker 3: to Tim Costello and you speak to a lot of 278 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 3: the people in this space, like I think everybody knows 279 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 3: that Pokey's are pretty clearly a terrible blight on society. 280 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 3: You know, it's we're losing tens of billions of dollars 281 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 3: a year to this. And when I say we, it's 282 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: often you know, poorest people who are really addicted to 283 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 3: this stuff, and it's really significant social harms that result 284 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 3: from that. The government statistics show all sorts of things 285 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 3: in terms of relationship breakdown and substance abuse and mental 286 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 3: health impacts of problem gambling. We know this stuff sucks 287 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 3: and it's got a really, really nasty effect on a 288 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 3: lot of some of the most vulnerable people in our society. 289 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 3: It's hard to be anything other than cynical about the 290 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 3: reasons that it continues. The industry itself is quite a 291 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 3: powerful lobby group, and I think this is one of 292 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 3: those cases, a bit like when we talk about gun 293 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 3: control in America and the role of the NRA and 294 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 3: the gun lobby and how politically powerful they are over there. 295 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 3: You know, sometimes I think Australians look at America on 296 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 3: that and we shake our heads and we can't really 297 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 3: understand how things have gotten as bad as they've gotten here. 298 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 3: This is a different issue, of course, but I think 299 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 3: it's fair to say that the rest of the world 300 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 3: looks at Australia on this issue and scratches their heads 301 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 3: in much the same way. 302 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 2: A very interesting topic that I think we're going to 303 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 2: be hearing a lot more of in the lead up 304 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: to New South Wales election. And some very tough questions 305 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 2: being posed by you. Tom there and it's food for 306 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 2: thought for everyone over the weekend. Thanks so much for 307 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: joining us on the Daily OS today. If you learn 308 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: something from today's episode, don't forget to hit subscribe. So 309 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 2: there's a TDA episode waiting for you bright and early 310 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 2: on Monday morning. But if you're at the tennis over 311 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 2: the weekend, make sure you swing by the TDA Pride 312 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: Hub to come and say hello. I'll be there and 313 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: I'd love to meet you. We'll be back again on Monday. 314 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: Have a wonderful weekend.