1
00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:01,080
Speaker 1: Hello.

2
00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,960
Speaker 2: My name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud or the

3
00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,680
Speaker 2: Order Kerni Whaltbury and a waddery woman. And before we

4
00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,399
Speaker 2: get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would

5
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,440
Speaker 2: like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of

6
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,599
Speaker 2: which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging

7
00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,520
Speaker 2: the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through

8
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,080
Speaker 2: as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and

9
00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,520
Speaker 2: the storytelling of you to make a difference for today

10
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,040
Speaker 2: and lasting impact for tomorrow.

11
00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:34,120
Speaker 1: Let's get into it.

12
00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:53,519
Speaker 3: She's on the Money, She's on the Money.

13
00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,960
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast

14
00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,280
Speaker 1: that's all about real strategies for growing your finances, not

15
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:08,520
Speaker 1: fake ones for growing a downline. I'm Victoria Devine, finance expert,

16
00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,160
Speaker 1: MLM exposer and full time skeptic of Get Rich Quick Schemes.

17
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,120
Speaker 1: If you've been following our series on MLMs, you know

18
00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,360
Speaker 1: we've been peeling back the layers on this achlitterary yet

19
00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,280
Speaker 1: gritty world. But today I have something extra special for you.

20
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,720
Speaker 1: An MLM million dollar earner. Yep, you heard that right,

21
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,520
Speaker 1: A genuine unicorn level success story in the world of MLMs,

22
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,440
Speaker 1: the kind of story that the brochures promise and the

23
00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:42,800
Speaker 1: hashtags romanticize. But he's the twist. She's left it all behind,

24
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,640
Speaker 1: and not only that, she's turned her energy towards exposing

25
00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,640
Speaker 1: the truth about the system that she once thrived in.

26
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,480
Speaker 1: Joining me is none other than Emily Lynn Paulson. She's

27
00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,560
Speaker 1: the author of Heyhun, Sales, Sisterhood and Supremacy, and the

28
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,320
Speaker 1: Other Lies behind Multi level Marketing. Emily isn't just a

29
00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,160
Speaker 1: rare success story, She's also the sharpest critic of the

30
00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 1: industry's predatory practices. Emily, I'm so excited for this episode.

31
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,640
Speaker 1: Welcome to She's on the money from the other side

32
00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:14,240
Speaker 1: of the world.

33
00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me. It's my favorite topic to

34
00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:17,640
Speaker 4: talk about.

35
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,440
Speaker 1: Really, It's almost like you wrote an entire book about it,

36
00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,440
Speaker 1: you know, I adore it. I also just low key

37
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,600
Speaker 1: the name of your book, Heyhun. Oh, it makes me

38
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:30,760
Speaker 1: so excited. You just know it's going to be a

39
00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,080
Speaker 1: good book, full of all of the juiciest details, and

40
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,920
Speaker 1: it is. So can we dive straight in?

41
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:38,880
Speaker 4: Sure? What do you want to know? First?

42
00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,520
Speaker 1: With my background as a financial Advisor and having just

43
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,160
Speaker 1: written a business book, I have so many thoughts and

44
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,160
Speaker 1: feelings about the I guess flaws in the MLM business model,

45
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,640
Speaker 1: and as someone who has a background in psychology, I

46
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,440
Speaker 1: also take a major issue with I guess what you

47
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,520
Speaker 1: would call the manipulation tactics that these companies use. And

48
00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,440
Speaker 1: that's why I want to break this chat into two parts. First,

49
00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,160
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the business side, and then

50
00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the psychological side of MLMs, because,

51
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,080
Speaker 1: like I feel like the business side, yeah, pervy, but

52
00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:18,040
Speaker 1: like the manipulation, we all just get so frustrated with Emily.

53
00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 1: First off, I have to say the book was a

54
00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,239
Speaker 1: very fun read. It is spot on. I feel like

55
00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 1: it captures the like slightly too friendly vibe that we

56
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,200
Speaker 1: all experience in our inboxes. Had you had many of

57
00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,960
Speaker 1: those messages before you'd actually joined an MLM yourself, did you,

58
00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,200
Speaker 1: I guess know much about them at the time or

59
00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:39,200
Speaker 1: was it a bit of a mystery?

60
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,440
Speaker 4: I would say I was blissfully ignorant, and that kind

61
00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 4: of made me the best target because I had been

62
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,280
Speaker 4: to tupperware parties and legging parties and different things. I

63
00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,240
Speaker 4: bought the jewelry. But I didn't really understand. It was

64
00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 4: just kind of like you go to your friend's house,

65
00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,000
Speaker 4: you drink wine, you buy a few things, and you leave.

66
00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,680
Speaker 4: I didn't really know it was a hierarchical structure.

67
00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,720
Speaker 1: Why would you You don't ask about the business model.

68
00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 1: You're like, hey, these leggings are cute.

69
00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and even if they do, you know, talk about like, oh, yeah,

70
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,240
Speaker 4: this is something you can do. Also, it isn't until

71
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,240
Speaker 4: like the one on one or after you sign the

72
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,479
Speaker 4: dotted line that you realize what's involved. And I think

73
00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:23,080
Speaker 4: that's why I was such good prey, because I knew enough,

74
00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,640
Speaker 4: Like I knew enough to know that Okay, yeah I

75
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,280
Speaker 4: can throw parties, Yeah I can work a website. I

76
00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,040
Speaker 4: can you know, I like to buy stuff, Like those

77
00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,240
Speaker 4: are the qualifications.

78
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:34,080
Speaker 1: And that's fun.

79
00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it sounded fun. It was like something to

80
00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 4: do money. It was you know, going out drinking and

81
00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:41,840
Speaker 4: like it was all the things I wanted to do.

82
00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,000
Speaker 4: But I didn't really know what was behind it. So

83
00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,840
Speaker 4: I would say, you know, yes, and no, I knew

84
00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,200
Speaker 4: some I've been targeted a little bit, but I didn't

85
00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,520
Speaker 4: realize how predatory it was.

86
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that makes absolute sense, And I feel like

87
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,360
Speaker 1: that's the story I'm hearing in my damns from basically

88
00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 1: everybody who's joined and is either considering leaving or has left.

89
00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,560
Speaker 1: They're like, I didn't know, Like I was blissfully unaware.

90
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,360
Speaker 1: Seems to be the tagline here of these We'll get

91
00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,719
Speaker 1: onto it later, but I feel like you were right.

92
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,359
Speaker 1: You are the perfect target. Oh no, no, what was

93
00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,760
Speaker 1: your life like before MLM? Paint us a little bit

94
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,479
Speaker 1: of a picture. What was going on in your world

95
00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,480
Speaker 1: before MLMs became part of the story.

96
00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,640
Speaker 4: Yeah. So it was twenty fourteen and my youngest child

97
00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,960
Speaker 4: was two, So I had five kids under nine years old.

98
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,799
Speaker 1: Oh my god. So I was just you're having fun.

99
00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was so much fun. So, you know, I

100
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,160
Speaker 4: was sleeping a ton, and you know, I was just

101
00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,800
Speaker 4: kind of run ragged. Like from the outside, I had

102
00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,039
Speaker 4: a very good life. I loved being a mom, and

103
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,280
Speaker 4: yet at the same time, I also felt a little

104
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,920
Speaker 4: bit trapped, and I was at the point where I

105
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,160
Speaker 4: knew we weren't having any more kids. But the thought

106
00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,520
Speaker 4: of going back to the workforce suddenly was like, well, shoot, like,

107
00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,720
Speaker 4: how am I going to do this? Childcare for five kids?

108
00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,880
Speaker 4: Would be ridiculous, like my husband's job is not flexible.

109
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,880
Speaker 4: We've kind of followed his career, and now like what

110
00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,719
Speaker 4: am I going to do? So I had this desire

111
00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,800
Speaker 4: to like escape and get out and get a break

112
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,359
Speaker 4: and also figure out some way to earn money. So

113
00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,200
Speaker 4: I think, you know, I was feeling a little bit

114
00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,080
Speaker 4: lost at that time.

115
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,279
Speaker 1: That feels really reasonable and also something that I'm sure

116
00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,880
Speaker 1: a lot of mums can resonate with. You kind of

117
00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,160
Speaker 1: sometimes lose yourself a little bit. You're like, oh wait,

118
00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,120
Speaker 1: I've you know, prioritized my husband's career, and now what

119
00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,120
Speaker 1: am I going to do? You write childcare. I don't

120
00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,200
Speaker 1: know what it costs in the US, but in Australia

121
00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,760
Speaker 1: childcare is astronomically expensive. Like to give you a little

122
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,599
Speaker 1: bit of context, I have a child in daycare and

123
00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 1: we pay one hundred and ninety two dollars a day

124
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,080
Speaker 1: and for that there are rebates and stuff available, but

125
00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,680
Speaker 1: it really it doesn't come close to making it reasonable,

126
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,919
Speaker 1: especially if you had five kids like you just it

127
00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,120
Speaker 1: would be more than a full time salary worth of

128
00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:56,920
Speaker 1: daycare yeap.

129
00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,880
Speaker 4: And I think that's why you know MLA can thrive,

130
00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,400
Speaker 4: that it's because there is no safety net. I never

131
00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,560
Speaker 4: fault anyone for taking that as an option, because you know,

132
00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,560
Speaker 4: we don't have affordable childcare and we don't have you know,

133
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,720
Speaker 4: flexible paid leave or you know, jobs are really hard

134
00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,200
Speaker 4: for moms to have because moms are generally the ones

135
00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,840
Speaker 4: who have to take off for sick days and all

136
00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,240
Speaker 4: of that, and so we don't have safety nets. So

137
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,480
Speaker 4: I get it, and that's why I joined one because

138
00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,960
Speaker 4: that was the option available to me at the time.

139
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,360
Speaker 1: And it sounds really attractive, right. And this is why

140
00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,239
Speaker 1: when we have been doing our MLM series, I haven't

141
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,760
Speaker 1: named names of people in MLMs because I just honestly

142
00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,560
Speaker 1: I feel sorry for them because they've been taken down

143
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 1: this beautiful garden path and I feel like they've drunk

144
00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,960
Speaker 1: the kool aid and they think that this is all

145
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,960
Speaker 1: sunshine and roses, when in reality, they've been taken advantage of.

146
00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 1: And that breaks my heart. And it's not my job

147
00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,680
Speaker 1: to call them out. It's my job to call the

148
00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,960
Speaker 1: system out and help I guess illuminate what that looks

149
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,560
Speaker 1: like and why you might be taken advantage of, because

150
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:05,920
Speaker 1: I kind of want to stay a safe place if

151
00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,800
Speaker 1: you go oh, Hey, they I've been watching your content

152
00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,360
Speaker 1: and it's been a bit confronting because I've just realized

153
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 1: that I have drunk the kool aid and I am

154
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,080
Speaker 1: actually victim to this system. I want to be that

155
00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,200
Speaker 1: safe place for people to turn and you would get

156
00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,680
Speaker 1: this all the time. I'm absolutely certain of it, but

157
00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:24,960
Speaker 1: it's wild. The more I talk about it, the more

158
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,600
Speaker 1: people are sliding into my dms, going hey, they, have

159
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,960
Speaker 1: you got any advice for leaving? Because I've just realized

160
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,560
Speaker 1: that's me and that's really heartbreaking. And I mean we've

161
00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 1: been talking about it a lot in She's on the Money,

162
00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,160
Speaker 1: so on the podcast and in the She's on the

163
00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,000
Speaker 1: Money community, but also on my personal Instagram, which is

164
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,800
Speaker 1: where I go a little bit more rogue. You've probably

165
00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 1: seen the difference, like nobody stops me from posting on

166
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,360
Speaker 1: my personal Instagram. But there's a vetting process on the

167
00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:55,240
Speaker 1: more serious business side. But we know legally the difference

168
00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,720
Speaker 1: between a multi level marketing business and a pyramid scheme

169
00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,400
Speaker 1: is a but from an insider's point of view, talk

170
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,959
Speaker 1: me through it. How does the business actually work?

171
00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 4: So there is no difference. In fact, pyramid schemes are

172
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,200
Speaker 4: actually more lucrative.

173
00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:19,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd make more money. Bye, don't join an MLM,

174
00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,199
Speaker 1: just go straight for the pyramid schemes.

175
00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,800
Speaker 4: Great pyramid and that's a sad reality. And you know

176
00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,160
Speaker 4: the idea of a pyramid, you know, I've ember thinks

177
00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,640
Speaker 4: so like the little triangle, but like in reality, the

178
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 4: pyramid would be like so flat because there's like very

179
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,480
Speaker 4: few people a top the people at the bottom. It

180
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,439
Speaker 4: would go out past the earth, you know, it's so wide.

181
00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,120
Speaker 4: So pyramids not even the right you know shape. But

182
00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,800
Speaker 4: just for our intensive purposes, a pyramid scheme and an

183
00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,800
Speaker 4: MLM are the same in the sense that it's all

184
00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,920
Speaker 4: about recruiting into the system, and it has nothing to

185
00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,760
Speaker 4: do with what you're selling or how you're doing it.

186
00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 4: It's just about collecting people. And so when the messaging is, oh,

187
00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,560
Speaker 4: I've got these great products, but you know you should

188
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,960
Speaker 4: buy in to get the biggest discount, or you should

189
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,480
Speaker 4: join because this is a great opportunity. You know, you

190
00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,599
Speaker 4: got to ask yourself, like what would be the difference

191
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,840
Speaker 4: between just giving you one hundred dollars and asking five

192
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,000
Speaker 4: people for one hundred dollars? You know what is so

193
00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,200
Speaker 4: great about this product?

194
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true it's scary.

195
00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,640
Speaker 4: And the reality is the products aren't special different. There's

196
00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:29,400
Speaker 4: nothing necessarily wrong with some of them. Some are problematic,

197
00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,840
Speaker 4: but for the most part they're just run of the

198
00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,880
Speaker 4: mill skincare, you know, diet pills, shakes, whatever, they're selling, leggings.

199
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,320
Speaker 4: But it isn't about the products at all. It is

200
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 4: about the mission, the system and this bigger thing. It's about,

201
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,440
Speaker 4: you know, this mission to fulfill whatever. It's this like

202
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:53,880
Speaker 4: self fulfilling prophecy of nothing really, you know, it's yeah,

203
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,880
Speaker 4: prosperity gospel, all of that.

204
00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, from all my research, it seems that I guess

205
00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,880
Speaker 1: at mL structure. You know, obviously we need to stipulate

206
00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,280
Speaker 1: that here in Australia, and I'm pretty sure in the

207
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,720
Speaker 1: US a pyramid scheme is illegal. But we're just talking

208
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,600
Speaker 1: context and comparison. We're not saying go and do a

209
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 1: pyramid scheme. But it seems from all of my research

210
00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,600
Speaker 1: that an MLM is actually more harmful than a pyramid

211
00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,160
Speaker 1: scheme because in a pyramid scheme you kind of have

212
00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,040
Speaker 1: that once off investment, like you invest and then you know,

213
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,880
Speaker 1: the pyramid does its thing, whereas with MLM you invest

214
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,240
Speaker 1: over time through like I guess product purchases and you know,

215
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,600
Speaker 1: needing to meet your quota every month. Like I feel

216
00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,560
Speaker 1: like that seems to be a consistent thing. How much

217
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,920
Speaker 1: pressure did you feel to invest your own money into

218
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 1: I guess your product or your business?

219
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean that's where no matter what, even if

220
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,160
Speaker 4: it's not a product that you want, you become a

221
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,439
Speaker 4: consumer because there is a minimum requirement and there's always

222
00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,640
Speaker 4: a caveat. And this is how they stayed legal. They

223
00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,640
Speaker 4: make so okay, you don't have to buy the product.

224
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:04,960
Speaker 4: You can join. You know, you can join and not

225
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,760
Speaker 4: have to buy the product. But if you don't buy

226
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,280
Speaker 4: the product, then you're not getting commission. And then what's

227
00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,720
Speaker 4: the point of joining in the scheme?

228
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,320
Speaker 1: Oh, that's so snaky.

229
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,960
Speaker 4: It's talked around and it's always a little bits. Like

230
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,320
Speaker 4: you said, it's like death buy a thousand paper cuts, right,

231
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,720
Speaker 4: it's like, well, you've got this twenty five dollars website fee,

232
00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,600
Speaker 4: and you're like, oh, twenty five dollars, No big deal,

233
00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,760
Speaker 4: that's not much. Yeah actually yeah. And when it's compared

234
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,200
Speaker 4: to a business, and this is another place where kind

235
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,560
Speaker 4: of I'll even say for myself, business alliteracy, Like I

236
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 4: wasn't a business person. I don't have a degree in business.

237
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,520
Speaker 4: You know, I was a chemist before kids. Like so

238
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,280
Speaker 4: for me running a business lots of air quotes, it's

239
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,600
Speaker 4: not a business. You know, you're a ten ninety nine contractor.

240
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 4: But they use all these comparisons, like, you know, if

241
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,320
Speaker 4: you started your own brick and mortar store, you'd have

242
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,240
Speaker 4: to pay for rent, you'd have to pay for products,

243
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,599
Speaker 4: you'd have to pay for and so these little purchases

244
00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,640
Speaker 4: seem very nominal when they're compared to an actual business, right,

245
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,360
Speaker 4: but they're not related. So it's a ridiculous comparison. It's

246
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,880
Speaker 4: comparing apples and oranges. But it's easy to get in

247
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,480
Speaker 4: that mindset. Well, okay, I guess if I spend twenty

248
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,679
Speaker 4: five dollars and then another hundred, I'm going to use

249
00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,200
Speaker 4: those products anyway.

250
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,199
Speaker 5: And if I can make money off it, I can

251
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,360
Speaker 5: earn my money back. I mean, you just start talking

252
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,480
Speaker 5: yourself into this. And you know, a payramid scheme, you

253
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,320
Speaker 5: don't have people on the sideline saying just stay just

254
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,400
Speaker 5: stay in, just keep working. It works if you work

255
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:30,679
Speaker 5: it just one more month.

256
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,520
Speaker 4: You know, you have people cheering you along and also

257
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,120
Speaker 4: doing the same thing. So it's like, Oh, do you

258
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,280
Speaker 4: think it's weird that you know, I have to buy

259
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,640
Speaker 4: another serum even though I haven't used the last one.

260
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,800
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, but you know you can gift it. You could.

261
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,600
Speaker 4: You're surrounded by people doing the same thing, and so

262
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,840
Speaker 4: I know that gets into the psychology that we'll talk

263
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 4: about later. But it's that group thing.

264
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,400
Speaker 1: We'll talk about it, we'll talk about it. Yeah, Oh

265
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,040
Speaker 1: my gosh. I feel like that's the pervioust part for me,

266
00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,880
Speaker 1: having like I've done a couple of psyche degrees and

267
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,040
Speaker 1: I adore or the psychology of money. I adore the

268
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,720
Speaker 1: psychology of literally why people make the decisions that they make,

269
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,320
Speaker 1: And this just marries the two together so perfectly, which

270
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,000
Speaker 1: is why it's probably I don't know, a hyperfixation of

271
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,120
Speaker 1: mine at the moment, but I have had a lot

272
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,000
Speaker 1: of people in my DMS and messaging and emailing me

273
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,960
Speaker 1: saying what's the difference between like a multi level marketing

274
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,840
Speaker 1: business and a franchise, Because lots of people, if you're

275
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,200
Speaker 1: inside an MLM will say, oh, it's like having your

276
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,120
Speaker 1: own franchise, but you don't have to pay for the

277
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,480
Speaker 1: bricks and mortar store and having read your book, You've

278
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,480
Speaker 1: talked a lot about this in your book. Can you

279
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:33,960
Speaker 1: explain how they are different?

280
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,120
Speaker 4: Yes, And it's so interesting once you're on the other

281
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,520
Speaker 4: side of it, because this was like a talking point

282
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,240
Speaker 4: when I talked at presentations of why people should join, like, oh,

283
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,480
Speaker 4: it's a virtual franchise, but it's less than a thousand dollars,

284
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,840
Speaker 4: and you can't open a taco bell for less than

285
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,560
Speaker 4: a million dollars or I mean, I would use this language.

286
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 4: So it's just it's funny that that became part of

287
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,480
Speaker 4: the normal vernacular. But it's different in every way. You know.

288
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,160
Speaker 4: I can go down town and there's a Starbucks in

289
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,480
Speaker 4: a grocery store and then there's Starbucks next door, and

290
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,480
Speaker 4: you think, oh, well, gosh, if a Starbucks can be

291
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,280
Speaker 4: on every corner, right, it's so saturated. But they do

292
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,880
Speaker 4: so much research. Starbucks figures out like what are people

293
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 4: shopping habits? The people who are buying the coffee while

294
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,680
Speaker 4: they're shopping, you're totally different than the people driving through

295
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,160
Speaker 4: and getting one. So you need both. And it's a

296
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,880
Speaker 4: location that's accessible. Any Starbucks store that opens has a purpose,

297
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,720
Speaker 4: and that's why sometimes they close and sometimes new ones

298
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,600
Speaker 4: open because they have so dialed in to how they're

299
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 4: going to make money back. That's just one aspect of

300
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,240
Speaker 4: a franchise. There's many, many more. There's also rules with

301
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,200
Speaker 4: franchises that you have to do a certain amount of

302
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 4: a waiting period before you can actually get the McDonald's

303
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,840
Speaker 4: or whatever franchise you're purchasing, so that you can have

304
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,480
Speaker 4: time to think about it, which shouldn't be built into

305
00:15:54,640 --> 00:16:00,160
Speaker 4: any purchase, any big decision, any big financial decision. As

306
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,160
Speaker 4: an MLM, it's completely the opposite. You are encouraged to

307
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,520
Speaker 4: have as much competition and as small of an area as.

308
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,440
Speaker 1: Possible, which is insane to me. It's like recruit your

309
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 1: mom and you're like, hold on, wouldn't you both have

310
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:12,120
Speaker 1: the same customer?

311
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 4: You would? Yeah, So your recruiting competition in an already

312
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 4: saturated market, and not only within your own. You know,

313
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,360
Speaker 4: I was in Rhodana Fields, for example. I also was

314
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,680
Speaker 4: competing with Beauty Counter and Monate and you know all

315
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:30,280
Speaker 4: these other products that maybe had overlapping portfolios. Nobody needs

316
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,840
Speaker 4: that much serum, right, So it was way more than

317
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,440
Speaker 4: the area I lived could contain could purchase from. And

318
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 4: then not only that, but you could buy stuff online.

319
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,520
Speaker 4: So just the idea that it's a franchise is so

320
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 4: out there because there's zero research done and it's encouraged

321
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 4: to be more saturated than not. And you're also encouraged

322
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,440
Speaker 4: not to have a waiting period but to sign up

323
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,480
Speaker 4: as quickly as possible. There's always these like sign up

324
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,320
Speaker 4: this week and you get this free, or you know,

325
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 4: you can get a refund. That was a big thing.

326
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,840
Speaker 4: It's like there's no commitment. If you join, you can

327
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,320
Speaker 4: pay this business kit fee and you'll get your thousand

328
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,560
Speaker 4: dollars back after sixty days. If you're not interested, well

329
00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,359
Speaker 4: that's a load of crap, because guess what, you're going

330
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 4: to have a thousand boss babes you know, on your

331
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,880
Speaker 4: ass telling you not to return it and telling you

332
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,560
Speaker 4: you just need to work harder. So it could not

333
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,639
Speaker 4: be less like a franchise. It's it's much more like

334
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,960
Speaker 4: a pyramid scheme than a franchise, that's for sure.

335
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,680
Speaker 1: And I feel like these questions come because we don't

336
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,800
Speaker 1: know what we don't know. Hold that thought, because after

337
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,680
Speaker 1: the break, we're going to dig into how MLMs legally

338
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,000
Speaker 1: separate themselves from pyramid schemes and whether those comparisons to

339
00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 1: franchises hold up. Spoiler alert, they don't stick around. All right,

340
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,560
Speaker 1: we are back. And something else that I find interesting

341
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,200
Speaker 1: and I kind of want to like put here as

342
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,399
Speaker 1: maybe like just a conversation market you could say, is

343
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 1: there are lots of differences right economically between Australia and

344
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,240
Speaker 1: the US. And I think a lot of the time

345
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,040
Speaker 1: as we live in our little island away from most things,

346
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,360
Speaker 1: and like everything's bigger in America, and so I think

347
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,160
Speaker 1: that when Australians look at multi level marketing businesses, we go, well,

348
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,760
Speaker 1: it's nothing like what happens in the US. Like it's

349
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,119
Speaker 1: not like that because you know, we don't have the

350
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,600
Speaker 1: aggressive religion overlays and we don't have, you know, the

351
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,239
Speaker 1: scale that they have, when in reality we do. Like

352
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 1: the reality is the businesses that you're talking about, Emily

353
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,199
Speaker 1: are actually the identical businesses here in Australia. So like

354
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,879
Speaker 1: we are talking and like it's been a few years,

355
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,879
Speaker 1: so like it took a while for like Monee to

356
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,440
Speaker 1: get to Australia and we got Rodin and Fields recently

357
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,280
Speaker 1: as well, and like we actually have all of them

358
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 1: and they are not different. They have been cut and

359
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,480
Speaker 1: paced from the US for an Australian market, and I think,

360
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,439
Speaker 1: what you know, and we'll get into the psychology of

361
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,040
Speaker 1: it soon. I'm just like, I guess, chumping at the

362
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,040
Speaker 1: bit trying to get there. But when you talk about

363
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,359
Speaker 1: the psychology of it, we actually do have the religious

364
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 1: overlays as well in play, it's just not as obvious.

365
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,320
Speaker 1: I feel like Americans are a lot more like open

366
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,560
Speaker 1: about their religion and open about posting it and going,

367
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm so glad that God helped me

368
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 1: do x y Z on their Instagram posts. But I

369
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,240
Speaker 1: think in Australia we're a little bit more nuanced because

370
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 1: we know that religion isn't so big here, so we

371
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,640
Speaker 1: don't want to turn away a consumer that might go, oh,

372
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,120
Speaker 1: if that's religious, I'm not interested. So it's a little

373
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,760
Speaker 1: bit more hidden, but it absolutely is here. And I

374
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,639
Speaker 1: think that, you know, That's why I was like, I

375
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,920
Speaker 1: just want to pop this here and say no, no, no,

376
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:45,879
Speaker 1: what Emily is talking about, because I think it's so

377
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 1: easy sometimes to go she's in the US, it must

378
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:50,439
Speaker 1: be a little bit different.

379
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 4: It's not.

380
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 1: It's identical, and I think that's what is so frustrating

381
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,360
Speaker 1: because again back to my history, I was a financial

382
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 1: advisor and I now have this podcast that thankfully takes

383
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,359
Speaker 1: me all over the world, and I have been lucky

384
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,560
Speaker 1: enough to go to the US a number of times

385
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,679
Speaker 1: to go to finance conferences. And one thing that I

386
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,679
Speaker 1: find different about the Australian market versus the US market

387
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 1: is in Australia, it is the expert's job to protect

388
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 1: the consumer. So here in Australia I have to always say,

389
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,040
Speaker 1: you know, if I was working as a financial advisor,

390
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 1: I'd have to be like, okay, Emily, like sit down,

391
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 1: I need to take you through all of the risks

392
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,159
Speaker 1: and what's going on here and how this works so

393
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 1: that you're making the right decision, and like, you know,

394
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,480
Speaker 1: we've got laws. So if I was recommending a financial

395
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 1: services product, I would have to give you three products

396
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 1: to compare. Like I am as the expert, the I

397
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 1: guess security, Whereas in the US it's actually the consumer's

398
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 1: responsibility to do their own research, and a financial advisor

399
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 1: I can say whatever they would like to say. They

400
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 1: can go out to market and go, hey, hey, Victoria,

401
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: I think that product A is the best. Go there

402
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 1: and it's not a good or a thing. It's just

403
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,480
Speaker 1: the difference in responsibility. But I think in Australia it's

404
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 1: become quite dangerous because we live in this society where

405
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 1: we expect our experts to have our best interests at heart,

406
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,919
Speaker 1: because we are legally bound by that. Like I was

407
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 1: bound by that. Every single service provider in Australia has

408
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,120
Speaker 1: to make sure that the consumer's in the right position.

409
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,320
Speaker 1: We now have this American model coming into Australia and

410
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 1: you expect those people telling you that that serum is

411
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 1: the best serum to actually be putting you in the

412
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,719
Speaker 1: best possible position. And it's not the case because they

413
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,880
Speaker 1: are assuming that you will do your own research when

414
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,160
Speaker 1: we haven't been brought up that way, if that makes sense,

415
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 1: And that's.

416
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 4: Really scary it is. And when you are you sign

417
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 4: the dotted line and you give yourself to security number

418
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 4: and you become a boss babe. You are told to

419
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 4: be the expert. You're told to act like the expert.

420
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 4: Take it till you make it, you know, use whatever

421
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 4: company materials you have to sell whatever. Like I was

422
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,840
Speaker 4: the skincare expert, I wasn't a scared care expert. Like

423
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 4: I knew a lot about the products we had. I

424
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 4: could give you talking points from the products we had.

425
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,199
Speaker 4: I was not a dermatologist, I wasn't an esthetician, and

426
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 4: so you can only do so much damage, I guess

427
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 4: with skincare, hair care. But when you're talking about products

428
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 4: like there's this Amari company. I don't know if you

429
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 4: guys have that in Australia yet, but it's a mental

430
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 4: wellness company where they're you know, telling people, you know,

431
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 4: use this in place of your antidepressants. And when you're

432
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 4: getting to this place where okay, this person selling themselves

433
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 4: as an expert without credentials, I mean, yeah, it gets

434
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 4: really scary. And I was going to say too with

435
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 4: the infiltrating Australia with this business model that is done

436
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 4: so on purpose, like it is so intentional. They start

437
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 4: in the US and then they say, oh gosh, yay,

438
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 4: we're doing so well, We're going to go to Canada.

439
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 4: It's not that they're doing well, it is that it's

440
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 4: become so saturated and the people at the bottom are

441
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 4: getting you know, consistently earned and crushed, and there's fewer

442
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 4: people now to buy in. So they go to Canada

443
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 4: and then yay, we're doing so well. Now we're going

444
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 4: to go to Australia. I mean it's like with every company.

445
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,959
Speaker 4: You will see this, sometimes Japan and then you know Japan,

446
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 4: they don't do so well there, so they leave. Sometimes

447
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 4: they don't do so well in Australia they leave. So

448
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,479
Speaker 4: it's this constant expansion and people think, Wow, a company's growing,

449
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 4: they must be doing well. That's what we think is

450
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 4: non experts, right, But the reality is you're just running

451
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 4: out of people a scam in one country and you've

452
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:31,360
Speaker 4: got to go to another one.

453
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 1: So that's terrifying. And I mean I trust literally what

454
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 1: you're saying because you made it to a level that

455
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 1: many aspire to but rarely achieve, right wild And you

456
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 1: talk in your book about the perfect storm of circumstances

457
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: and qualities that made you so successful in a system

458
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 1: that was designed, honestly for most people to fail in.

459
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: So I want to know how did you become so

460
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 1: successful in the pyramid scheme?

461
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really was just lightning striking at the right time.

462
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 4: I happened to join this company that wasn't you know,

463
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 4: really well known in the area I was living. I

464
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 4: was in Seattle, Washington at the time, and so I

465
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 4: was kind of the first to bring it to that market.

466
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,719
Speaker 4: And I had a lot of friends because I had

467
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 4: a lot of kids. Right, all those kids have friends,

468
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 4: they have parents, Like I was in so many social circles.

469
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 4: I was very social and most of the people I

470
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 4: knew were kind of the same circumstances as me. Where

471
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 4: you know, we had money to buy things. It's not

472
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 4: like we were, you know, swimming in cash or anything.

473
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 4: But if I wanted something, if I wanted to try

474
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 4: a haircare product, I could. My friend was selling jewelry,

475
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 4: I could buy it. Right, I had these people all

476
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 4: around me. And with that, people are like, oh, hey,

477
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 4: I'm bored too, or you know, I can't get a

478
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 4: job either because I also have kids, and I also

479
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 4: am in the same circumstances that you were in, and

480
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 4: so heck, I'll join too. So I very quickly assembled

481
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 4: this team of people who joined with me, who then

482
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 4: got their own teams of people to join with them,

483
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 4: And so it really was the pyramid got assembled very quickly.

484
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 4: And again the products were an inn like. People liked them,

485
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 4: they were cool, whatever, But the products were just away

486
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 4: in to build the.

487
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 1: Team into the system, into the game. It's insane how

488
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: that works because obviously you had the perfect storm. But

489
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 1: then on the flip side you talk about Hannah and

490
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: why she was actually never going to succeed in a

491
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: multi level marketing structure. Can you tell me a little

492
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: bit more about why the Hannahs of the world will

493
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: always fail in an MLM structure.

494
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 4: Yes, So someone who comes in, you know, say a

495
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 4: couple of years after a company has really taken over

496
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 4: an area. And this is when people tend to come

497
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 4: in because they see it a lot on their social

498
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 4: media feeds. They're like, Wow, so and so is getting

499
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 4: a paycheck, and so one saw was getting a paycheck,

500
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 4: and gosh, they look they're having so much fun. I'll

501
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 4: host a party, you know, you come over, I'll bring

502
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 4: my friends. They join right. Well, at that point, again,

503
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 4: the area has become so saturated, and maybe that person

504
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 4: who joined had to wait a while to join because

505
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 4: they had to save up the money. You know, they

506
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 4: don't necessarily have the network of people who have extra money.

507
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 4: They don't have a ton of relatives, and so if

508
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 4: you have any of those things stacked against you, which

509
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 4: most people have one or two. Like most people, they

510
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 4: either had don't have a huge network, or maybe they

511
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 4: don't have a ton of extra money laying around or

512
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 4: they you know, whatever, they don't they can't use the

513
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 4: products that are being sold. There's lots of reasons why

514
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 4: someone wouldn't be successful at this, but the biggest thing

515
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 4: is the saturated market. And so it really just takes

516
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 4: a couple of levels. In fact, when I joined, nobody

517
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 4: who joined after me ever achieved near the level of

518
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 4: success that I did. And I always use air quotes

519
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 4: because you know, the success came at, you know, the

520
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 4: victimization of other people. You know, my upline brought me

521
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 4: in thinking she was helping me. I brought people and

522
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 4: thinking I was helping them until I realized, oh, I

523
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 4: am making money because they're all paying monthly for their website,

524
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 4: for their products, for these conventions, for all of these things,

525
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 4: these trainings, these things that I'm making them go to,

526
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 4: and the new product that comes out and they have

527
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 4: to buy it, well, all that is going up to

528
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 4: me and booying me, and they're treading water. And you know,

529
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 4: that was the point where I was like okay, and

530
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 4: you know, there was some guilt and like trying to

531
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 4: help other people. And it really was the realization that, oh,

532
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 4: this is designed so that a few people make money

533
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 4: off the many of people who are not.

534
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: And that must be a really hard realization to come

535
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: to because you are earning really good money and I'm

536
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: seeing it a lot here where the top dogs, you

537
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 1: could say, are going No, absolutely not stop saying I'm

538
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: victimizing women. I absolutely am not doing that. I'm giving

539
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: them this opportunity and if they can't make the most

540
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: of it, that's on them, not on me. At what

541
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: point do you stop drinking that kool aid and flip

542
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: to hold on. I actually feel a little bit uncomfortable

543
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: with this, and is that I don't know, I feel

544
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: like that would be a jarring realization for you to

545
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: have gone through, to go hold on, hold on, hold on.

546
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: I've led all of these people down the garden path,

547
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: and now I'm realizing that this garden path is actually

548
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: fraught with danger. Yeah, what did that feel like?

549
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 4: And that was also by design because you know, you're

550
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 4: never told, like you would be in a traditional business

551
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 4: to do a profit loss statement or keep track of expenses.

552
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 4: You know, you're never told to do that. It's just

553
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 4: like buy your products, sign people up, bloody dah, and

554
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 4: the rest is like just you know, shove it out

555
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 4: of the rug, don't talk about it. You know, look

556
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 4: at the income disclosure if you want any financial information.

557
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 4: So you're kind of in this place where by the

558
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 4: time you are able to figure that out, you're in

559
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 4: so deep. You've recruited so many people into this system.

560
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 4: So it really was a matter of me. My rise

561
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 4: in the MLM really followed my journey with alcohol, and

562
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 4: you know, I got sober, and you know, the beer

563
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 4: goggles came off, and I realized, you know, the lot

564
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 4: of the tactics I was using I wasn't comfortable using anymore.

565
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 4: I realized, like, oh, I really saw it for what

566
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 4: it was. I saw that the people who I had

567
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 4: been telling, well, you're not successful because you're not doing X,

568
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,239
Speaker 4: Y and Z, they were doing those things. And I

569
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 4: always assumed, you know, I did what my upline told me,

570
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 4: and it worked. If I tell people to do what

571
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 4: I'm doing, it'll work for them too. And it wasn't.

572
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 4: It wasn't until I actually you know, stopped gaslighting people right,

573
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 4: looked at what they were actually doing, had them do

574
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 4: like their own profit loss statements, so that they could

575
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 4: see the riding on the wall. It kind of took that.

576
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 4: You know, I could say to someone like, Okay, so

577
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 4: this is how much money I'm making, and that's whatever.

578
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 4: But to someone when you tell them like, okay, you're

579
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 4: spending this much time and this much money and this

580
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 4: how much you're really taking home? Oh, then the work

581
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 4: they're doing is not They're not going to keep grinding, right.

582
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 4: So it was at that point when I really tried

583
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 4: to help people see that they kind of needed to

584
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 4: leave before I was ready to leave. You know. It's

585
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 4: like I had to slowly dismantle what I had built,

586
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 4: if that makes sense. Yeah, it's a hard realization. And

587
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 4: like those women you're saying who are like, no, I'm

588
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 4: not manipulating people, they might not actually realize it yet

589
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 4: because they've never been told.

590
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: No, and that's what hurts.

591
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it is. It's hard.

592
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: It's a really challenging realization. And I mean, you're soul

593
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: the dream, right. I mean when it comes to the

594
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: lure of joining a multi level marketing business, a really

595
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: big one for women in particular is this freedom push.

596
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: So they're always talking about have freedom, like you know,

597
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: you'll have the freedom to do whatever you want. You

598
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: can work from wherever you want. Look, I am in

599
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: Mexico and I am at work, and it just it

600
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: blows my mind. So how did this so called freedom

601
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: manifesting your day to day life as a really successful

602
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: multi level marketing play.

603
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 4: There is nothing less free than being required to work

604
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 4: from the hospital, or being required to work at month

605
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 4: end every month, and being required to go on these trips.

606
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 4: Like that's not freedom. Like I want to go on

607
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 4: a vacation and put my phone away, not sit with

608
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 4: my face in it and text it. That's what you

609
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 4: see on social media, right, I can work from it anywhere.

610
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 4: Why do you want to work from anywhere? Like why

611
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 4: is no one questioning this? Yes, it's true, Right, I

612
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 4: sold some lips heerum while I was in the hospital

613
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 4: having a baby. Why are you doing that? Like nobody's

614
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 4: questioning this. So the idea of freedom being able to

615
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 4: work more places is what's so screwed up? Like what

616
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 4: is freedom to use that freedom?

617
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: No?

618
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 4: I mean, there is nothing less free than being glued

619
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 4: to your phone all day. I can't tell you that.

620
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 4: When I find decided to step away and not go

621
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 4: to the conventions, anymore and not send DMS anymore and

622
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 4: do all of that stuff like that was true freedom.

623
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 4: And that's when I could not wait to cut the

624
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 4: cord and be done with it. I was in a

625
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 4: prison of my own making.

626
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yeah, And that's exactly from I think.

627
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: I'm in a very privileged position looking in like I've

628
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: got the education on my side, thankfully, but I'm also

629
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: a business owner, and like you are saying all the

630
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: stuff that I am thinking, I'm like, I don't want

631
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: to work from anywhere. If I go on a holiday

632
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: with my baby and my husband, I don't want to

633
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: take my phone out of the room. I want to

634
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: be present. What are you guys doing? What is this

635
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: freedom thing you speak of? And I guess the other

636
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: thing you've touched on before is about like doing a

637
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,479
Speaker 1: profit and loss and talking about you know, how much

638
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: you're actually taking home and you know, tracking your expenses,

639
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: which is they don't talk about that. They absolutely don't

640
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: talk about it. You've described running the business as exhausting,

641
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: and obviously it sounds it if you're selling serum while

642
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: giving birth. Absolutely not. And there's I guess so much

643
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: unpaid labor involved, which is something that makes me so

644
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: angry because women are already doing so much unpaid labor.

645
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: Can you talk, I guess a little bit more about

646
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: these tasks and how much time you were spending on

647
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: them that I guess you weren't being directly compensated for.

648
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: And another question, did you ever work out your hourly wage?

649
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 4: Yes? And by the time I did that, mine was okay.

650
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 4: But I had like my team do that as well,

651
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 4: and it was eye opening and we were not told

652
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 4: to ever do that. And I'm sure that's why.

653
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's dismal.

654
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 4: It was dismal. I mean, yes, you could make more

655
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 4: money doing anything. The unpaid labor thing that it is

656
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 4: really sad because just like the freedom thing we k

657
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 4: you are at home, and I'll use me for an example,

658
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 4: Like I was home with five kids. I was pretty

659
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 4: much the sole caregiver. My husband traveled a lot. You know.

660
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 4: I craved the so for me to have to get

661
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 4: a babysitter, to have to pay for a babysitter, to

662
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 4: go on a free trip that wasn't free, and to

663
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 4: be on a beach looking at my phone, that sounds

664
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 4: like freedom, right, So that even though in practice it

665
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 4: ends up not being freedom, it felt like it. So

666
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 4: you're giving these goals to strive for that end up

667
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 4: not being very good goals. And you are used to

668
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 4: doing so much unpaid labor, like our whole country and

669
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 4: probably yours too, is held on the unpaid labor of women. Right,

670
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 4: So when you're told, hey, you're already doing this, like

671
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 4: you're already sitting at pick up with your kids, why

672
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 4: not send a couple of texts and make some money? Again,

673
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 4: it sounds good in practice until then it becomes something

674
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 4: you have to do and you're not necessarily making money.

675
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 4: You're not making money until you sell something or recruit someone, right,

676
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 4: So the act of sending a text isn't making money.

677
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 4: But again, it.

678
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: Sounds nice yet sounds so kind. Yeah, oh, it drives

679
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: me insane. And when you start to look at the

680
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: monetary side of things, like obviously I love deep diving

681
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: into it. And legally they have to share their income

682
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: disclosure statements, so MLMs will put on their website the

683
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: income disclosure statements and they'll often be relatively proud of

684
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 1: these things because they use them as marketing tools as well.

685
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: And I have been in the background doing some maths

686
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: on a number of these MLMs and taking the information

687
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: on their income disclosure statements versus every other statement I

688
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: can find on their website, and they don't always add up.

689
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: So do you think that these income disclosure statements are

690
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: a fair depiction of I guess the state of affairs

691
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: so to speak.

692
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely not. You know, they use a mean as

693
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 4: opposed to a median, which they should use a median

694
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 4: because you know, if you have a bunch of people

695
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 4: who make two dollars and you have one person who

696
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 4: makes five thousand dollars for some reason at that level, well,

697
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 4: the average then it's going to be twenty five hundred dollars.

698
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 4: I mean, we all know how averages work. But the

699
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 4: median would be maybe five dollars. Yeah, that's a big difference.

700
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 4: So it doesn't show what the majority of people make

701
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 4: at each level. And even when you look at it,

702
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 4: it's pretty abysmal. But when you look at like, okay,

703
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 4: eighty percent of people make this much, and when you

704
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 4: look at it and realize it's before expenses, like, it

705
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 4: doesn't include expenses, it doesn't include taxes, it includes nothing,

706
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 4: So you can basically cut that in half, maybe in

707
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 4: half again, it's already abysmal, and it's much worse than that.

708
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 4: So no, they're not accurate. It's much worse than it shows,

709
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 4: and they tell you that's why they don't really reference

710
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 4: it that often. It's like, oh, if you want more questions,

711
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 4: just go check out the income disclosure. Well you might,

712
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 4: and then sometimes it's super confusing. It's written strangely. You

713
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 4: don't necessarily know the levels when you join, so you're like, oh,

714
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 4: maybe I will be a level superior, princess or whatever

715
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 4: the hell. The top one is maybe I will get

716
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 4: to the point one percent, and then that income you're like, oh,

717
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 4: that looks really good.

718
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, Premiere Penguin Pro. I love it.

719
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, but everyone else is making very little or the

720
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 4: majority of people are actually losing money.

721
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I did the maths and I worked out

722
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: that to you know how they say you don't have

723
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: to buy in, but you definitely have to buy the

724
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: product pack to otherwise you're not going to get commissions

725
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 1: the product pack. Divide that by the amount that someone

726
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: would make over a year. I did it in Australia,

727
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: so our product pack averages for monet about three hundred

728
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars and the average monet salesperson's making nine

729
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: dollars a month, so like immediately you are in the red,

730
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: which is really really scary. I want to know a

731
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: little bit more about the pressure to make sales, to

732
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: reach each rank by the end of each month. So

733
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: what I guess is the worst thing that you think

734
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: you did to try and make or close a sale,

735
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: because that's a little bit pervy.

736
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 4: Oh god, the worst thing. Oh, I don't know what

737
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 4: the worst thing is. I think the fake accounts. I

738
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 4: don't know if they're the worst thing, but they're the

739
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 4: most prolific. Like that's what everyone does, and you're taught

740
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 4: to do.

741
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: You're taught to make fake accounts.

742
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 4: Make fake accounts. And whether that's your husband, you know,

743
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 4: you use their number. You know, I had an account

744
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 4: for a hamster.

745
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: Oh good? Oh good? Did they enjoy their serrus?

746
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 4: I loved them. And there's rules baked into like the

747
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 4: policies and procedures that you can have certain amount per customer,

748
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 4: right if they live in your house, because you know, theoretically,

749
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 4: I could have a daughter who uses skincare too, right,

750
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 4: and she I stuff through her account. Yeah, that makes sense.

751
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: She might only be two, but that's perfect.

752
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 4: Yeah. So the fake accounts, and it's really it's trained

753
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 4: into you, and that's one of those things you look

754
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 4: back on you're like, I can't believe I believed that,

755
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,879
Speaker 4: but then I did it, and then I taught it,

756
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 4: and you see why. It just continues to expand, like

757
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 4: down every level. You know, Gosh, if you've got to

758
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,399
Speaker 4: make this quota per month, you know, buy the new

759
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 4: product under a fake account, and then that will booy

760
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 4: your sales, and then you can use that product later

761
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 4: for giveaways, basically buy more stuff than use it for

762
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 4: bribes later. Like that's the long and short of it, right, Yeah,

763
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,959
Speaker 4: So the amount that you are spending for your own

764
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 4: quote unquote business, it's astronomical.

765
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: Which is insane. And I've called them up. I have

766
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: literally called their head office to ask questions, and they

767
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: are incredibly evasive. It is a lot of fun to

768
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: call them as somebody who you know, it gets a

769
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: little bit of a kick out of being like, hold on,

770
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: but didn't you say x y Z just before? I

771
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: want to know where that came from? Because when I

772
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: ask them about these practices, they say, no, absolutely not.

773
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: That is illegal. It's actually in our terms and conditions

774
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 1: that you don't create that. Like, if we ever found

775
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: out that somebody in our business was creating fake profiles,

776
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: we would absolutely you know, crucify them. Absolutely not. So

777
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: when they say one thing and then you guys are

778
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: doing another. They know that you're doing it. I know

779
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: that they know that you're doing it, but like, how

780
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: are you quite getting away with it? And like who

781
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: is teaching you this? Like it's clearly coming from the top,

782
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: but then they're denying that it came from the top.

783
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean your upline trains you, and you train

784
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 4: your downline and you know everyone does it. And the

785
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 4: verbiage in the policies and procedures is, you know, it's

786
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 4: loose enough, you know, like it'll say you can have

787
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 4: unlimited number of accounts in your own home if people

788
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 4: are using the product, Well, nobody is coming to your

789
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 4: house to verify that anyone's using it, Like how do

790
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 4: you So they make these rules that nobody can can

791
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 4: really fact check, right, so you can have an unlimited

792
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 4: number of accounts, purchase product underneath them, and then who's

793
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 4: going to check it? So they do write these things

794
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 4: in a way where they'll say, oh, no, that's illegal,

795
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 4: We've never allow that, But in practice it happens all

796
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 4: of the time, and they're not going to enforce anything

797
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,439
Speaker 4: that brings money into their bottom line. They are never

798
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 4: going to get rid of accounts where product is being

799
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 4: purchased that's flowing up to them, and so they encourage it.

800
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 4: It's never frowned upon. I never had anyone ever anywhere

801
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 4: in the company that I knew of, who got terminated

802
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 4: or kicked out for making fake accounts. Ever, because if

803
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 4: you on paper wanted to say, oh, yeah, that's my sister,

804
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 4: that's my daughter who's going to come to your house.

805
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 1: In fact check, yeah, it's not actually like a legal

806
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: ramification for that, right, Like, it's just them saying don't

807
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: do that and then turning a blind eye. All right, Tam,

808
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: That's why we're going to leave it for today. I mean,

809
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: we've covered so much ground already, haven't we, From the

810
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: questionable business models to the financial pressures of maintaining a rank.

811
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,959
Speaker 1: MLMs are starting to sound less like opportunities. I'm all, like, well,

812
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: expensive hobbies. But my friend, he's the understanding the numbers

813
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: is just one part of the story. What's really wild

814
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: is how these businesses keep people coming back despite the

815
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 1: red flags waving inarguably neon signs. It's not just about

816
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: the dollars. It's about the psychology, the manipulation and the

817
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: promises of freedom and community that hook so many people

818
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: in and keep them there. And that's exactly where we're

819
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: going to pick up next time. We're diving into the

820
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: psychological side of MLMs, how they pull you in, how

821
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: they keep you there, and why leaving can feel so

822
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: hard even when it's costing you more than it's worth.

823
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: You're not going to want to miss this, so don't

824
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: forget to follow and subscribe so you don't miss part two.

825
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,439
Speaker 1: My friends, it's going to be juicy. I'll see you soon.

826
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: The advice shared on She's on the Money is general

827
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's

828
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should

829
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: not be light upon to make an investment or financial decision.

830
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: If you do choose to buy a financial product, read

831
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 1: the PDS TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards

832
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: your needs. Victoria Divine and She's on the Money are

833
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: authorized representatives of money sherper p t y lt D

834
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: a BN three two one six four nine two seven

835
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: seven zero eight AFSL four five one two eight nine