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Speaker 1: And then it was I'm ego driven, I'm reputation, folks,

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Speaker 1: my identity is all I care about. I'm disconnected from

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Speaker 1: my kids. And it was just like Bang Bang mag.

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Speaker 2: Five years ago, doctor Katrina Wallace had iahuasca for the

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Speaker 2: first time, but instead of enlightenment, she met her shadow.

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Speaker 2: Seven hours of confronting ego control and the parts of

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Speaker 2: herself she'd spent years avoiding. That experience cracked something open,

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Speaker 2: not just personally but as a leader. And in this conversation,

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Speaker 2: Cat shares how plant medicine reshaped the way she thinks

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Speaker 2: about power, truth telling, and purpose, and how learning how

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Speaker 2: to let go fully can sometimes be the most transformative

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Speaker 2: decision you'll ever make. Oh and if you haven't listened

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Speaker 2: to my main interview with kat, go back and listen

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Speaker 2: to that one first. There's a link to that in

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Speaker 2: the show notes. And just a quick note before we

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Speaker 2: dive in this episode, nothing bill here is medical or

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Speaker 2: legal advice, and we're definitely not suggesting anyone try anything

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Speaker 2: that's illegal where they live. Think of this as an

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Speaker 2: open conversation, not a recommendation.

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Speaker 3: Okay, on with the chat.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,

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Speaker 2: and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor

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Speaker 2: Amantha Imber. In your book Rapid Transformation, your journey with

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Speaker 2: Psychedelics features really heavily, and I just I found it

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Speaker 2: absolutely fascinating to hear your experiences, which I think from

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Speaker 2: memory started about five years ago.

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Speaker 3: Is that about right?

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Speaker 1: That's right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what prompted you to move into this area?

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Speaker 1: So I'd been sort of walking let's call it a

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Speaker 1: shamanic path for about thirty years. I did some initial

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Speaker 1: training when I was in my late twenties. I would say,

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Speaker 1: I'm an animist, and an animist is someone who believes

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Speaker 1: that sort of nature is God, and there's there's spirits

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Speaker 1: and in all things, spirits and trees, spirits and rocks,

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Speaker 1: spirits and animals, et cetera. But because I had this

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Speaker 1: massive career, this big corporate career, and so you have

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Speaker 1: a listed company. As much as I wanted to go

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Speaker 1: and sit with plant medicine and something like Ayahuascar, I

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Speaker 1: felt it's probably not appropriate because I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I'm going to radically change, or I'm going to find

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Speaker 1: something in myself, or I'm going to find a new

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Speaker 1: vision and come back and say, hey, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to run the company anymore. And it was on just coincidentally,

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Speaker 1: the day that I sold my company in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: that afternoon happened to be the afternoon of my first

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Speaker 1: Ayahuscar ceremony.

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Speaker 2: Wow, tell me what that experience was like, that very

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Speaker 2: first experience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So i'd been called to Ayahuascar for ten years

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Speaker 1: and we use this in the psychedelic realm, this calling.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I'm curious about that. Oh, here's a

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Speaker 1: video that's just popped up. Oh, I've got a friend

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Speaker 1: who's just you know when it keeps coming. And so

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Speaker 1: for ten years, so I was putting it off, putting

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Speaker 1: it off, putting it off. But now I knew it

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Speaker 1: was time to sit. And what I knew about Aoascar

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Speaker 1: is that it's made as a brew in the Amazon jungle.

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Speaker 1: It's made from the Ayahuascar vine and the vine is

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Speaker 1: sort of mashed up and boiled up, and it is

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Speaker 1: a purgative, so it will be an inhibitor of the

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Speaker 1: enzyme that eats up DMT in your system. So humans

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Speaker 1: naturally create DMT in our system, like when we're born,

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Speaker 1: when we give birth, orgasm, and death at times when

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Speaker 1: there's a big release of DMT in the human self,

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Speaker 1: but we have enzymes that eat it up. So the

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Speaker 1: ayahuascar inhibits that enzyme and creates a purge, which is

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Speaker 1: the releasing of energy, which is also may come as

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Speaker 1: like a vomit. And then the second part of the

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Speaker 1: Ayahuascar brew is a plant called chakruna, and chakruna has

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Speaker 1: very high levels of DMT and its leaves, so Chakuna ayahuascar.

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Speaker 1: You boil it up together and for a couple of days.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of prayer and ceremony that goes into

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Speaker 1: this very sacred brew, and they call it the Grandmother

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Speaker 1: Medicine or the Mother Medicine. It ends up being quite

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Speaker 1: a thick, dark brown, quite stringent thing to drink like.

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Speaker 1: It's quite a difficult taste, which I think is all

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Speaker 1: part of it. And so I went to this. I

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Speaker 1: went to this because we go, oh, I can get

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Speaker 1: addicted to hiauascar. I said, I don't think so, did

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Speaker 1: you not think you want to be drinking that very often?

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Speaker 1: That is really hard to get down? So I sold

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Speaker 1: the business is two o'clock in the afternoon five o'clock,

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Speaker 1: changed my clothes. Seven o'clock. I'm sitting in this ceremony

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Speaker 1: about to drink this medicine with ten other people that

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Speaker 1: I didn't know, with a guide that would call a

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Speaker 1: miestro if it's a male or a maestro, it's a female,

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Speaker 1: and really not knowing what I'm getting myself into. And

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Speaker 1: at the time I drink it, I start getting all

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Speaker 1: of these fears. It's like, oh, what am I doing here?

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Speaker 1: And I have to share a tent with some people

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Speaker 1: I don't know. That's weird. And maybe my director's trying

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Speaker 1: to call me because you know, we sold the company today.

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Speaker 1: Oh shit, you know again, I've selfishly taken time for

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Speaker 1: myself and not my kids and anyway, So I was

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Speaker 1: just in this like negative space and medicine hadn't even started.

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Speaker 1: And then my intention of going in was, hey, I

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Speaker 1: would finish this chapter of the tech business. Now I

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Speaker 1: wonder what a new vision is for me, and I'm

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Speaker 1: feeling a little bit blocked in knowing what's next for me.

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Speaker 1: So that was my intention. I'd like a vision and

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Speaker 1: I'd be blocked. So as we say, the medicine will

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Speaker 1: always deliver what you asked for. And so what I

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Speaker 1: learned was you can't get the vision without removing your

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Speaker 1: blockages first. So as the medicine started, it was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I feel really sick, Like I feel really nauseous. And

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Speaker 1: then it was relentless seven hours. I'm ego driven, I'm

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Speaker 1: reputation focus, my identity is all they care about. I'm

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Speaker 1: money focused, I'm disconnected from my kids, I tell lies

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Speaker 1: at times, I'm a lousy friend. And it was just

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Speaker 1: like bang bang bang. And I describe it in the

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Speaker 1: book is Man. I was in the washing machine of hell.

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Speaker 1: And then when I think it couldn't get any worse,

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Speaker 1: it was like the floor dropped out and I was

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Speaker 1: in the dungeon of Hell. And then the floor dropped

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Speaker 1: out and I was a trapdoor of the dungeon of Hell.

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Speaker 1: It was awful. It was the most awful experience. So

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Speaker 1: essentially what I've done is I traveled in to the

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Speaker 1: shadow realm of myself. What are all the shadows I have?

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Speaker 1: What are all the darkness that I have now become

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Speaker 1: in this life that I'm living running a company, trying

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Speaker 1: to build this business. And it wasn't that I was

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Speaker 1: a terrible person in real life. He was a super

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Speaker 1: cool person in real life, but these were alive in

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Speaker 1: me and they were really uncomfortable. And the way Ayahuascar

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Speaker 1: works is once once you stop fighting, I'm like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not ego driven. You get sicker and

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Speaker 1: secrets and go, oh fuck I am ego driven, Like yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: and then once you realize it, then it's like it

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Speaker 1: all out to a bucket, and we say, like Aiahuascar,

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Speaker 1: seven hours of Ayahuascar is like seven years of psychotherapy.

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Speaker 1: So it's literally you're removing that behavior, that energy from

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Speaker 1: your body as you purge it out. So it's not

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Speaker 1: like a vomit like you've drunk a bottle of vodka.

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Speaker 1: You've got gastick. It's like a oh, I want this

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Speaker 1: out of me, So out it comes and time and

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Speaker 1: time again. And so when I finished the ceremony, it

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Speaker 1: was like, man, that was the worst experience of my life.

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Speaker 1: That was horrendous. And I looked around and everyone was

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Speaker 1: smiling and they were bright, and you know, someone had

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Speaker 1: met their dead grandmother and other people had just been

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Speaker 1: filled with light and joy, and other people had had

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Speaker 1: this brilliant light show. And I was like oh, what's

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Speaker 1: wrong with me? I just had the worst experience, and

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Speaker 1: so I said, right, I'll never do this again. That

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Speaker 1: was bad, it almost killed me. Not going to do

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Speaker 1: it terrible.

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Speaker 3: And then well what happened because you did do it again.

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Speaker 1: I didn't do it again the next night. So I

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Speaker 1: went to sleep and still miserable in the morning. I

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Speaker 1: went down and saw the female guy the next morning,

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Speaker 1: and I was crying and saying, oh, I can't do

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Speaker 1: this again, like this is so bad, like I hadn't

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Speaker 1: realized what a bad person I am. So yeah, I

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Speaker 1: can't do it. I won't live through another night, like

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Speaker 1: I don't want to do it, like I'm just so sad.

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Speaker 1: And she said, look, why don't you go and write down,

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Speaker 1: Just go and journal and see if what the medicine

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Speaker 1: showed you, if there's anything like that's you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of resonates with you. And I said, yeah, okay. So

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Speaker 1: I went away, very miserable and small and wrote, oh,

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Speaker 1: ego driven, Yeah, identity attached, Oh god shit, yeah, disconnected

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Speaker 1: from my children. Oh my heart breaks to think that.

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Speaker 1: Yes occasionally tells lies? Oh my god, yes, you know,

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Speaker 1: as business people do, we occasionally tell lies. We do

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Speaker 1: what the fuck? And then disconnected from anyway, just went

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Speaker 1: through maybe like fifteen behaviors and I went, you know what,

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Speaker 1: that's actually true. That's these things are true in me,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not proud of it. I'm shamed of it,

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Speaker 1: and they're not good. I want them gone. And the

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Speaker 1: great thing about Bihuascar, because it's such a visceral experience,

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Speaker 1: it's like I was sick each time I accept it,

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Speaker 1: Yes I am, ego, drimn, Yes I am. I did, yes, I'm.

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Speaker 1: It becomes so you can't go back to that behavior

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Speaker 1: because your body's going, no, that was not a good

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Speaker 1: behavior for you. We pursh it out. And the moment

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Speaker 1: I even stuff, oh, ego comes in and it's like

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Speaker 1: oh no, no, no, no, no no, because I'll feel

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Speaker 1: a bit nauseous. So it's a great way, yeah, great way.

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Speaker 1: And so then the second night I came back and

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Speaker 1: I said, all right, I'll sit, but I'm really nervous.

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Speaker 1: And so I sat the second night, drank the medicine.

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Speaker 1: And this time and they talk about the mother, right,

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Speaker 1: the mother, So the mother's spirit, the mother, grandmother. I

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Speaker 1: don't know who's the mother. I don't know. I just

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Speaker 1: go in like a bloody washing machine and anyway, guys there

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Speaker 1: and I was like very nervous, drank the medicine and

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Speaker 1: then it was like this female spirit appeared to me

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Speaker 1: and she went, oh hey, and I said, oh hello,

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Speaker 1: and remember like eyes closed completely, like I'm seeing things

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Speaker 1: but with my oss gums. And I said, oh, are

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Speaker 1: you the mother? And she said yeah, the mother? And

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Speaker 1: I said okay. I said, I'm nice to meet you,

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Speaker 1: but like, we can't do what we did last night please,

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Speaker 1: Like it was too much, Like can we do something else?

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Speaker 1: And she said yeah, sure, we can do something else.

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Speaker 1: And I said, oh, can it just be a bit

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Speaker 1: lighter and she goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can do it.

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Speaker 1: And she said how do you want me to be?

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Speaker 1: And I said, oh, well, I don't know. I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: cool and funny. Can you be cool and funny? And

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Speaker 1: she goes, yeah, I'll be cool and funny. So let's

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Speaker 1: go and do some things together. Then she said to me,

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Speaker 1: I know, like as a child and a young person,

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Speaker 1: the thing that you loved most was all the fae,

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Speaker 1: the fairies, the dragons, the elves, all of that realm,

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Speaker 1: you know, that fantasy realm. Do you want to go there,

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Speaker 1: and I said, what do you mean, do you want

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Speaker 1: to go there? She says, do you want to go

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Speaker 1: into that realm? And I said, of course I do, yes,

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Speaker 1: and she goes, come with me. So we're journeying like

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Speaker 1: in this psychicalo journey and we get to this this

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Speaker 1: big white cathedral and she says to me, Okay, you

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Speaker 1: stay down here and you look, but you can't interact.

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Speaker 1: You don't speak, you don't touch anything. You just be here.

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Speaker 1: And so remembering this is as real as this physical world,

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Speaker 1: because I'm deep in the medicine now. And so I

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Speaker 1: look up and I hear this rush noise and income

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Speaker 1: these two big silver dragons flying right above me, like

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Speaker 1: majestic dragons. And I look up them, Oh my god, dragons,

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Speaker 1: and then it's like, oh, they're real. They're actually real,

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Speaker 1: Like of course they're in every culture and across the world,

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Speaker 1: but now I see that they're real, Like what this

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Speaker 1: is incredible? But I also realized I couldn't interact to them.

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Speaker 1: Their energy and their vibration was so much more powerful

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Speaker 1: and refined. I was just like this tiny, little nobody,

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Speaker 1: little human spirit at the bottom of the canthedral and anyone thought, whoa,

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Speaker 1: that is so cool. And then the next thing I know,

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Speaker 1: this little elf walked in the side and just came

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Speaker 1: and sat next to me, and I went, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: it's an elf, Like what how is how is this true? Anyway?

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Speaker 1: And then it was just a beautiful journey, and I

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Speaker 1: felt the medicine moving through me, healing, letting go of

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Speaker 1: everything that you know, i'd gone the night before. So

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Speaker 1: in medicine we will say say, once you get a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff out, beautiful things can come in. And

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Speaker 1: so it was like I got a whole system uk rat. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: the next day, everyone was like, oh my god, how

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Speaker 1: to cat go like which she get annihilated again? And

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Speaker 1: I said, no, I didn't. I had the most profoundly

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Speaker 1: beautiful experience of my life, beyond anything I could have

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Speaker 1: ever imagined I experienced. And all the others you'd had

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Speaker 1: this beautiful journey the first night all got dusted up

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Speaker 1: the second night. Because what we say is like the

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Speaker 1: mother knows she's got you, like for two nights or

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Speaker 1: for seven days or whatever. She's got you on the retreat,

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Speaker 1: and she'll take you on a journey. And by the

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Speaker 1: time you get to the end of the journey, almost

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Speaker 1: without exception, it will be a profound transformation. It's just

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Speaker 1: some of the journeys might be like you're in the

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Speaker 1: washing machine, you're in the pits of hell, and others

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Speaker 1: like I wasn't second, you're having the most extraordinary experience

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Speaker 1: of your life. And the way I like to explain it,

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Speaker 1: because for some of the listeners it's like what dragons else?

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Speaker 1: That sounds nonsense, The way I explained as a professor

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Speaker 1: of behavioral science is that this, indeed could be just

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Speaker 1: my psyche. And we know the way psyche works, or

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Speaker 1: higher self or soul works, it's in mythology and symbolism.

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Speaker 1: So indeed, the dragon and the elf could be just

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Speaker 1: my mind, my soul presenting beautiful things to me that

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Speaker 1: I loved as a child. And so where I had

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Speaker 1: a whole lot cleaned out, then I was getting this

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Speaker 1: beautiful light, magical energy in which was important to me completely.

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Speaker 1: That is, we can explain that in a union way,

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Speaker 1: or I genuinely went to another realm where there are

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Speaker 1: dragons and help and to me, to me, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter which one is. That that was the experience and

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Speaker 1: the experience in my body, my soul, my mind, my

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Speaker 1: heart was so profoundly healing and cleansing that it changed

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Speaker 1: my life forever.

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Speaker 2: We will be back with Kats soon where we talk

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Speaker 2: about the very dramatic ways that her plant medicine experiences

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Speaker 2: have changed her as a leader. If you're looking for

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Speaker 2: more tips to improve the way you work can live.

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Speaker 2: I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've

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Speaker 2: discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up

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Speaker 2: for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com.

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Speaker 2: Tell me what some of the main ways that it's

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Speaker 2: changed you as a leader would be.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things in one of the other

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Speaker 1: medicines that I work with, which is called Buffo alvirius,

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Speaker 1: which is a five MEDMT. So that's the medicine of

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Speaker 1: the Sonora desert toad. It comes from glands that are

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Speaker 1: on the toad's neck and within ten seconds complete ego

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Speaker 1: dissolution and you're completely gone. We call it the oneness

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Speaker 1: medicine because you essentially become one with consciousness. And in

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Speaker 1: one of my wondeness and experiences, I saw when anyone

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Speaker 1: tells a lie or any thought is registered in the

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Speaker 1: oneness in the collective consciousness. And so when we go like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I've just got this really negative thought about that person,

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Speaker 1: but nobody knows because nobody's in my head, Like or

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Speaker 1: you know, here's a little lie to tell in business

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Speaker 1: that we need to tell because it'll keep the client happy.

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Speaker 1: All of this gets registered somewhere in what we'd say

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Speaker 1: is the fourth dimension, where there's no time, no space,

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Speaker 1: no matter. So it is somewhere. All our thoughts are somewhere,

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Speaker 1: and so if that's the case, they'll have an effect,

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Speaker 1: because everything has an effect in the universe and in energy.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, holy shit, Yeah, people need to be

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Speaker 1: truth telling, need to be seeking truth. So on average

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Speaker 1: a human, every human tells about seventy lies a day

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Speaker 1: of some sort. Maybe it's a bit of an exaggeration,

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Speaker 1: it's a bit of an underestimation, or it's just a

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Speaker 1: lie so somebody doesn't have to be difficult, or you

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Speaker 1: don't want to hurt someone. But when you're out of truth,

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Speaker 1: it's all just means you're out of alignment, and you're

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Speaker 1: out of alignment with the greater good essentially. And so

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Speaker 1: what I've learned is to come back into in all

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Speaker 1: times every day trying to be in full truth telling,

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Speaker 1: and it's really hard to do, particularly as a business person,

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Speaker 1: because we're actually trained not to be truthful most of

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Speaker 1: the time, you know, are we're going to tell our

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Speaker 1: investors all the bad things that are happening in the business. Now.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying you need to go and actually just

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Speaker 1: tell everything, but to be in the most authentic way

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Speaker 1: and walk a path of true leadership, then I think

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Speaker 1: truth telling needs to be fundamental. So that's that's that

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Speaker 1: for me. The other ways I work with the medicine

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Speaker 1: is when I want to know, we write this is

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Speaker 1: about this in the book, which is like instead of like, ooh,

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Speaker 1: who am I? And what's my purpose? And I this

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Speaker 1: profound medicine experience once in Mexico with mushrooms, like the

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Speaker 1: top of San Jose del Pacifico, which is where mushrooms

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Speaker 1: were kind of like Maria Savina was a woman who

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Speaker 1: introduced magic mushrooms to the West and then she she

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Speaker 1: was actually persecuted as a result, had a very tragic life.

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Speaker 1: But I was at her place in her community, sitting

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Speaker 1: on the top of the mountain and took these mushrooms

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Speaker 1: with a Shalman up. There was very ceremonials. It was

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Speaker 1: great anyway, I got to look into my own mind.

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Speaker 1: So it was almost like these little spirits came down.

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Speaker 1: They said, let's have a look in your mind. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's see what goes on in there. And I had

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Speaker 1: a look in there. I went, oh, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: that's so busy. Oh it's awful, like I have to

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Speaker 1: stay here. And they said, oh, yeah, that's what we

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Speaker 1: you know, that's what we parts of your conscious have

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Speaker 1: to sit and listen to all day. And they said

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Speaker 1: this like, oh, what's my purpose? Who am I? What's

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Speaker 1: my pat me? And they said, oh we do to

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Speaker 1: do here this lad l men me what's my anyway?

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Speaker 1: Which is a very Western way of thinking. Now I

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Speaker 1: have a beautiful, beautiful original sister who said to me, oh,

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Speaker 1: we don't think like that. We're not asking what's my purpose?

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Speaker 1: What's my path? Who am I? She said, we ask

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Speaker 1: what is needed of me? What is needed of me?

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Speaker 1: And so that profoundly changing one seeing in my own

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Speaker 1: mind with this obsession with ooh who am I? Important?

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Speaker 1: Am I? Specialment that needs to quiet and just ask?

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Speaker 1: All right, planet spirit kids, business customers, what is needed

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Speaker 1: of me, And that's been profoundly life changing for me

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Speaker 1: as a leader. Instead of like, Oh, I've got these

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Speaker 1: ideas and I'm going to do this, this, this, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: what's needed of me? And how can I truly be

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Speaker 1: in service?

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Speaker 3: Kat? It sounds absolutely amazing.

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Speaker 2: I want to know for listeners, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: listeners are in Australia, but then there's you know, we're

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Speaker 2: listened to in many countries around the world. If someone

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Speaker 2: wants to take the first step on this journey, what

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Speaker 2: should they do next?

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Speaker 1: So I think they should read, listen to podcasts, listen

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Speaker 1: to the Bigatus, so Sam Harris, Tim ferriss, Or Remarcus,

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Speaker 1: even Joe Rogan Oprah is now obsessed with psychedelics. Read

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Speaker 1: the book How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollin.

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Speaker 1: So just get really well educated. And then I think,

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Speaker 1: just put an intention, Just put an intention out into

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Speaker 1: the universe that you're curious about these medicines and how

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Speaker 1: they may help you. And I think that's great. And

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Speaker 1: then in the book Rapid Transformation is a guide to,

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Speaker 1: step by step how to do this responsibly and safely.

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Speaker 1: Given that in some country psychedelics illegal and it's also

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Speaker 1: not for everyone.

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Speaker 3: Kat. I have loved this conversation. It's been so overdue.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your generosity, for everything you

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Speaker 2: put out into the world. And just on a personal note,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being my friend and mentor over the years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, an absolute pleasure, always and in all ways.

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Speaker 2: I kept thinking about the moment Kat said she stopped

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Speaker 2: asking what's my purpose and started asking what is needed

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Speaker 2: of me. It's such a powerful reframe, especially for anyone

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Speaker 2: driven to achieve or prove themselves. Next time you're wrestling

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Speaker 2: with a big decision, try that question. Instead of what

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Speaker 2: do I want? Ask what's needed of me?

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Speaker 3: Right now?

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Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this conversation and you haven't listened to

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Speaker 2: the main episode I released with Kat, I highly recommend

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Speaker 2: jumping into that next. There is a link to that

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Speaker 2: in the show notes. If you like today's show, make

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Speaker 2: sure you get follow on your podcast app to be

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Speaker 2: alerted when new episodes drop.

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Speaker 3: How I Work was recorded

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Speaker 2: On the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of

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Speaker 2: the Cool and Nation