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Speaker 1: So an app I use every day is called Forest.

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Speaker 1: It's a free app. It's on my iPhone and this

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Speaker 1: is how it works. Simply, you open this app, you

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Speaker 1: put in how much time you want to do focused

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Speaker 1: work for and a little virtual tree is planted right,

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Speaker 1: So the entire screen is taken up by this little

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Speaker 1: virtual tree. If you pick up the phone and try

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Speaker 1: and do anything with it, the virtual tree dies. That's

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Speaker 1: a stupid little virtual tree. Who cares, right, But it's

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Speaker 1: enough of a reminder that you've made a pre commitment,

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Speaker 1: that you've made a pact with yourself, and it reminds

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Speaker 1: you that using the phone for some other purpose is

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Speaker 1: not what you wanted to do with your time.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha. I'm an organizational psychologist,

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Speaker 2: the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm obsessed with

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Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my work date. My guest today

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Speaker 2: is nia elna Is, an international best selling author, former

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Speaker 2: Stanford University lecturer, successful tech investor, and behavioral design expert.

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Speaker 2: Five years ago, Near wrote what is widely considered to

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Speaker 2: be Silicon Valley's handbook for making technology habit, forming a

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Speaker 2: book called Hooked. This week, his latest book, Indiestractable, is

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Speaker 2: coming out, which reveals the hidden psychology driving us to distraction.

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Speaker 2: In this book, he describes a way solving the problem

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Speaker 2: is not as simple as swearing off our devices, and

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Speaker 2: in fact, Nea claims that abstinence is impractical and office

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Speaker 2: makes us actually want more. Now, I was lucky enough

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Speaker 2: to read an advance copy of Indestractable, which I devoured

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Speaker 2: in one sitting. It is such a great book and

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Speaker 2: such a fresh and unique take on the productivity and

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Speaker 2: whole kind of focus digital distractions genre, and so, as

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Speaker 2: you can imagine, I was very excited to chat to

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Speaker 2: Near about the ideas in the book and how he

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Speaker 2: has applied them in his own life. So, if you're

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Speaker 2: finding yourself constantly distracted by digital and even non digital

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Speaker 2: things throughout your day, then I am sure that you

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Speaker 2: will learn some really great strategies to help you become

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Speaker 2: indestractable in this chat. So on that note, over to

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Speaker 2: Near to find out about how he works. Hello, Nia,

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Great to be here, Thanks so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: So I was just saying before we started hitting record

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Speaker 2: is that I read an advanced copy of Indistractable and

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Speaker 2: I absolutely loved it. I just felt it brought something

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Speaker 2: so fresh and interesting to what is quite a well

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Speaker 2: trodden kind of category.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. Thank you. I really wanted to

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Speaker 1: write the book I couldn't find, because I you know,

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Speaker 1: before I start any book project, I read up on

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Speaker 1: everything else that's been written in this genre to make

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Speaker 1: sure that you know, I'm looking for the answer to

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Speaker 1: my question. But you know, the only reason I write

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Speaker 1: a book is when I can't find a book book

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Speaker 1: that answers the question I'm looking to answer in a

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Speaker 1: way that I like. And so in this case, I

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Speaker 1: was really happy to kind of get something out there

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Speaker 1: that works for me first and foremost. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: really why I write these books, is to answer my

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Speaker 1: own questions and that other people resonate with it as well.

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Speaker 1: That's just icing on the cake. So thank you, Ah,

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Speaker 1: that's cool.

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Speaker 2: Out of interest, which books that were in the category

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Speaker 2: did you find most influential or most helpful?

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Speaker 1: No comment. I didn't find any that were helpful because

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Speaker 1: the narrative out there when it comes to distraction is

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Speaker 1: by and large, it's the technology doing it to you

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Speaker 1: that whatever. And this is by the way you could substitute.

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Speaker 1: You know, go back twenty years and it's television, or no, sorry,

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Speaker 1: go back twenty years and it's video games. Go back

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Speaker 1: twenty years, it's television, go back twenty years, it's radio.

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Speaker 1: Go back twenty years, it's something else, pinball machines or

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Speaker 1: whatever else. You know, you go back far enough. Even

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Speaker 1: Airstar all talked about how the written word was this

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Speaker 1: terrible new technology that'll end feeble men's minds. So this

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Speaker 1: tends to be the genre because you can make a

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Speaker 1: lot of money with scary headlines that say this new

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Speaker 1: thing now melting your brain. You know, we have fear cells.

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Speaker 1: And that's what every book in the genre basically tells you,

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Speaker 1: is that it's all technology's fault. And I don't buy it.

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Speaker 1: I call bullshit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to get more into that, but I

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Speaker 2: thought to frame up discussion. You've got this brilliant, bit

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Speaker 2: really simple framework that kind of covers the majority of

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Speaker 2: the book. I was wondering if you could just talk

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Speaker 2: listeners through that framework, because that will probably help anchor

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Speaker 2: some of what we'll get into in this discussion.

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Speaker 1: Sure, So I want you to picture a big plus

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Speaker 1: mark in your mind, like kind of like the four

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Speaker 1: points of a compass. So you get this like horizontal

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Speaker 1: axis and vertical axis, and along the horizontal axis on

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Speaker 1: one side you have traction. Traction is defined as any action.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's the word ends action. Traction ends in

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Speaker 1: the five words action, reminding us that this is something

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Speaker 1: that we do, not something that happens to us. Traction

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Speaker 1: this would be if this was a compass, this would

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Speaker 1: be to the east. This is something that you do

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Speaker 1: that with intent. Traction is any action that pulls you

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Speaker 1: towards what you want to do in life. Now, the

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Speaker 1: opposite of traction is distraction. So on the west side

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Speaker 1: of this plus mark, you would have distraction. Distraction is

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Speaker 1: any action that pulls you away from what you want

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Speaker 1: to do in life. So the opposite of distraction is

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Speaker 1: not focused. The opposite of distraction is traction. They both

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Speaker 1: come from the Latin route meaning trahare, which means to pull.

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Speaker 1: So traction is anything that pulls you towards what you want.

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Speaker 1: Distraction is anything that pulls you away from what you want.

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Speaker 1: And this is a really important dichotomy, because there's no

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Speaker 1: moral moral superiority around saying that one person's pastime is

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Speaker 1: somehow any better or worse than another person's pastime. So

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Speaker 1: if you want to spend time playing candy crush or

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Speaker 1: on Facebook or YouTube, that is no more morally superior

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Speaker 1: than watching football on TV or whatever it else you

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Speaker 1: want to do as a pastime. Anything that you plan

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Speaker 1: to do with your time, even if you plan to

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Speaker 1: waste time, there's a great quote that goes, the time

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Speaker 1: you plan to waste is not wasted time. As long

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Speaker 1: as you plan to waste that time, that's perfectly fine.

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Speaker 1: So it's wonderful to plan relaxation, meditation, prayer, any kind

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Speaker 1: of task that you want to plan, as long as

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Speaker 1: you plan it with intent. Anything that is not planned

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Speaker 1: with intent is a distraction. Or anything that you do

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Speaker 1: that you didn't plan to do is a distraction. So

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Speaker 1: you have traction. You have distraction. Now you've got the

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Speaker 1: north in the south right, and here I want you

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Speaker 1: to picture on this vertical access too arrows pointing inward. Now,

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Speaker 1: these two arrows represent external triggers, and triggers. External triggers

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Speaker 1: are the things in our environment that prompt us to

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Speaker 1: either traction or distraction. So these are all the pings, dings, rings,

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Speaker 1: and things that prompt you to either traction something you

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Speaker 1: plan to do, or distraction something that took you off track.

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Speaker 1: If it's an alarm that tells you, hey, it's time

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Speaker 1: to go exercise, or time to call your parents or

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Speaker 1: meet with your friends, well those are acts of traction

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Speaker 1: that you plan for and so they're very helpful. On

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Speaker 1: the other hand, if you get a ping or ding,

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Speaker 1: some kind of external trigger that prompts you to do

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Speaker 1: something you didn't plan to do, that prompts you towards distraction.

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Speaker 1: So if you're with your family or friends and you

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Speaker 1: get a notification on your phone when you plan to

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Speaker 1: have a nice dinner together, well, now that's a distraction.

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Speaker 1: It's taking you off track from what you wanted to do. Now,

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Speaker 1: external triggers are what everybody thinks about when they think

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Speaker 1: about distraction, but actually the most common source of distraction

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Speaker 1: is not the external trigger. Rather it is the internal trigger.

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Speaker 1: The internal trigger is very top at the north of

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Speaker 1: this little plus mark compass. These are things that prompt

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Speaker 1: you to either traction or distraction, but where they originate

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Speaker 1: from within us. So the number one source of distraction

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Speaker 1: comes from within. Distraction starts from within. This is a

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Speaker 1: very very important lesson because I can give you every

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Speaker 1: productivity tip and trick there is. But if you do

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Speaker 1: not master your internal triggers, your uncomfortable emotional states, you

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Speaker 1: will always find distraction and you will not get enough done,

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Speaker 1: or you will not fulfill your potential and get enough done.

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Speaker 1: I should say, so this is really important. This is

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Speaker 1: where to start.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I want to know because you, through writing

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Speaker 2: the book and through the research process, really changed your relationship.

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Speaker 2: I guess both with those internal and external triggers around

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Speaker 2: getting distracted. And I wonder what did you find hardest

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Speaker 2: about changing your own relationship with distractions and becoming indiestractable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So the the internal trigger piece is the hardest.

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Speaker 1: The other three are more tactical. You know, Tactics are

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Speaker 1: what you do, strategy is why you do it. And

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Speaker 1: so there's very tactical steps you can take to make

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Speaker 1: time for traction, to hack back the external triggers, to

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Speaker 1: prevent distraction. With pacts, they're very specific things you can do,

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Speaker 1: and I you know, describe those in the book. But

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Speaker 1: when it comes to these internal triggers. This is where

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Speaker 1: the icky, sticky truth is that we don't want to face.

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Speaker 1: So I remember this one particular instance when I was

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Speaker 1: I had an afternoon with my daughter, and we had

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Speaker 1: this book of activities that daddies and daughters could play together,

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Speaker 1: and one of the activities was to ask each other

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Speaker 1: this question that if you could have any superpower, what

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Speaker 1: superpower would you want? And I wish I could tell

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Speaker 1: you what she said in that moment, but I can't

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Speaker 1: because just then I'd gotten some notification or some internal

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Speaker 1: trigger that I was looking to escape on my phone,

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Speaker 1: and I decided to to scroll away or check some

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Speaker 1: email or do something silly at the time on my

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Speaker 1: device as opposed to being fully present with someone I

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Speaker 1: love very much. And she got the message that she

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Speaker 1: was less important than my phone, and she left the

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Speaker 1: room and I didn't notice that she'd left until a

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Speaker 1: few minutes later I looked up and she was gone.

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Speaker 1: And so that was kind of the seminal moment when

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Speaker 1: I decided, you know what, I really have to understand

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Speaker 1: what's going on here, and I wish I could just,

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Speaker 1: you know, slough off responsibility and say, you see. It

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Speaker 1: was my iPhone that did it to me. But it

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Speaker 1: wasn't because I was dealing with some stuff inside me

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Speaker 1: that I didn't know how to cope with in a

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Speaker 1: healthier manner. I was feeling particularly stressed. There was a

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Speaker 1: few things going on in my life. There was things

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Speaker 1: that I was looking to escape from. And if we

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Speaker 1: don't understand this fundamental truth that all distractions, whether it's

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Speaker 1: spending time online, whether it's too much work work, spending

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Speaker 1: too much time at work, whether it's booze, whether there's

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Speaker 1: all kinds of distractions out there, when we are looking

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Speaker 1: to escape, we always are looking to escape one thing,

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Speaker 1: and that is an uncomfortable emotional state. And so we

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Speaker 1: have to learn how to master these internal triggers or

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Speaker 1: we'll always be distracted by something and no productivity technique

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Speaker 1: is going to help that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because you talk in the book about looking for

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Speaker 2: the discomfort that precedes the distraction, and how did you

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Speaker 2: go about identifying that for you? Did you look back

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Speaker 2: on that moment with your daughter and try to analyze

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Speaker 2: what it was that drew you to your phone in

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Speaker 2: that moment?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, And so part of it was that I

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Speaker 1: had just become bored, right, so I'd spent too much

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Speaker 1: time in one sitting with my daughter. But that wasn't

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Speaker 1: my daughter's fault. And yet she was the victim of

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Speaker 1: that instance. She paid the price, and she didn't she

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Speaker 1: deserved better. And so now I've learned techniques to help

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Speaker 1: me cope with that discomfort and the healthier maas. So

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Speaker 1: there's two things you can do with these internal triggers.

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Speaker 1: You can either learn techniques to cope with that discomfort.

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Speaker 1: By the way, this isn't just for folks, you know,

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Speaker 1: fathers and daughters. This is for anybody in any circumstance.

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Speaker 1: Whenever we feel these uncomfortable emotional states that we seek

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Speaker 1: to escape, we can do two things. We can either

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Speaker 1: learn tactics to cope with that discomfort or can change

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Speaker 1: the source of the discomfort itself. And we need to

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Speaker 1: use these two in concert. There's been a I think

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Speaker 1: a shift lately to just do one of those, and

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Speaker 1: I think this rise in mindfulness and meditation. These are

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Speaker 1: great tools, but I don't think they are exhaustive. We

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Speaker 1: don't want to just meditate all day, We don't want

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Speaker 1: to just be mindful and focus on the sensations all day.

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Speaker 1: Those are effective techniques, But we also don't want to

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Speaker 1: forget that we need to change the source of the discomfort.

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Speaker 1: If we can, we should only apply mindfulness and meditation,

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Speaker 1: these type of techniques to cope with discomfort if we

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Speaker 1: can change the source of the problem. So, for many people,

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Speaker 1: the source of their discomfort is their work environments. Many

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Speaker 1: people work in toxic cultures that perpetuate these symptoms of

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Speaker 1: anxiety and even depression disorder. There's a certain type of

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Speaker 1: work environment we know literally creates depression anxiety disorders. And

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Speaker 1: so what do people do when they feel bad, Well,

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Speaker 1: they look for any semblance to make them feel in

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Speaker 1: control again. They call superfluous meetings, they send emails they

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Speaker 1: shouldn't send. They're grasping for some kind of control and

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Speaker 1: an agency over their circumstances. And so many of these

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Speaker 1: issues are these more systemic problems of the environments we

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Speaker 1: find ourselves in. And so when we can change those circumstances,

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Speaker 1: we absolutely should. Now when we can't change those circumstances,

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Speaker 1: we can learn techniques to cope with that discomfort. So

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Speaker 1: there's three big strategies. We can reimagine the trigger, we

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Speaker 1: can reimagine the task, and we can reimagine our temperament.

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Speaker 1: And these three techniques are everything in the book is

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Speaker 1: backed with a lot of research. You saw the bibliography.

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Speaker 1: It's it's pretty enormous. These aren't these aren't you know,

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Speaker 1: pet techniques that I use. These are techniques that are

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Speaker 1: all appeared in peer review journals. And so I talk

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Speaker 1: about these many techniques that we can use to help

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Speaker 1: us cope with that discomfort in a healthier manner. We

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Speaker 1: can go into those in more depth. If that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually want to come back to boredom like given.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think a lot of parents can experience

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Speaker 2: that if they're spending a lot of time with their

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Speaker 2: child or children, and in your case, your door. I've

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Speaker 2: also got a little girl as well. It can sometimes

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Speaker 2: get boring, as much as we hate to admit it.

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Speaker 2: And in your book you write about the cure for

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Speaker 2: boredom is curiosity, and I'm curious how how have you

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Speaker 2: applied that in your own life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no

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Speaker 1: cure for curiosity. I love that quote. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: this is this is one of those three techniques that

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Speaker 1: I talked about in terms of re imagining the trigger,

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Speaker 1: reimagining the task, and reimagining your temperament. This comes under

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Speaker 1: the category of reimagining the task. That one of the

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Speaker 1: techniques we can use to make a task that is

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Speaker 1: otherwise boring or tiresome or just not much fun is

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Speaker 1: to do what Ian Bogos calls play anything. And he

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Speaker 1: tells us he's a professor at Georgia Tech. And he

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Speaker 1: tells us that play doesn't have to be enjoyable, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of weird, right, you would think, well, it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: Play has to be fun, right, it has to be enjoyable.

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Speaker 1: Not necessarily. Play can also serve as a diversion. Distraction

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Speaker 1: is always bad. Distraction, by my definition of distraction is

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Speaker 1: something that pulls us away from what we want to do.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes diversion of attention can be very good. And

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Speaker 1: so Bogos tells us to divert our attention from the

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable aspects of a task, not in the way most

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Speaker 1: people think. Most people think of the kind of Mary

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Speaker 1: Poppins spoonful of sugar kind of way where you know,

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Speaker 1: give it a reward at the end, And this is

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Speaker 1: called extras motivation, and it doesn't work for very long.

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Speaker 1: It can work for short sprints of a task that

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Speaker 1: you don't have to do again and again, But if

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Speaker 1: it's something you have to do repeatedly, it's not a

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Speaker 1: great technique because all the motivation comes from outside of

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Speaker 1: you as opposed to within you. And so what Bogos

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Speaker 1: recommends is two things. One, focus more intently on the task.

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Speaker 1: As you mentioned, get more curious about the way the

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Speaker 1: task works. You know, what is it? Well, what are

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Speaker 1: all the specifics and variables about that task? And then

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Speaker 1: the second thing we should do is to look for

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Speaker 1: the variability, to look for what changes right, what kind

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Speaker 1: of uncertainty you might find in a task. And you say, okay,

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Speaker 1: well I kind of get it, and I want to

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Speaker 1: add a look for the variability and focus more intently

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Speaker 1: on the task. But how does this apply in real life? Well,

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Speaker 1: there are all kinds of things that people do for

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Speaker 1: the sheer pleasure of the task that if I asked

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Speaker 1: you to do, you would say, you're you'd have to

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Speaker 1: pay me. I would never do that for fun. Consider

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Speaker 1: the car buff who loves tinkering with their car. But

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Speaker 1: most people wouldn't do that unless you pay them. As

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Speaker 1: to work as a mechanic, and yet the car buff

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Speaker 1: does it for the love. Think about the coffee obsessed barista,

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Speaker 1: right who's just infatuated with that perfect cup. You know,

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Speaker 1: most people need to be paid to make coffee, but

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Speaker 1: the coffee buff loves it. The person who quilts or

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Speaker 1: knits just for the pure pleasure of it, not because

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Speaker 1: they're being paid in some factory, but because they just

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Speaker 1: love it. All of these people have something in common,

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Speaker 1: which is they focus more intently on the task and

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Speaker 1: they look for the variability of that task, and that's

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Speaker 1: how they reimagine it to become something that is less

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Speaker 1: of negative internal trigger and instead they minimize that uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: sensation so that they can enjoy the task or so

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Speaker 1: that they can play the task.

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Speaker 2: And how has that worked for you at the moment,

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Speaker 2: because I would imagine that you have probably described the

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Speaker 2: framework in your book one hundred plus times. You're in

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Speaker 2: the middle of doing a lot of interviews for the

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Speaker 2: book which is coming out next month. How do you

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Speaker 2: think about these interviews and you know, things with the

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Speaker 2: media where you're talking about all the concepts of the book,

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Speaker 2: probably many many times a day every day.

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Speaker 1: Well, unfortunately this happens to be a task I really enjoy,

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Speaker 1: so it's no challenge for me. But I'll go back

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Speaker 1: to the chan. You know, this is where I take issue.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you're familiar, we probably are the

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Speaker 1: work of Mehi Chicks. Yeah, absolutely wrote the book Flow,

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Speaker 1: and people site flow as this miracle, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's not very great. I'm not a big fan. Sorry

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Speaker 1: Chick sent me high and the reason I don't like

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Speaker 1: it is because he basically says it's great, well it's there,

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Speaker 1: and not so much when it's not. Well, thanks a lot, buddy.

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Speaker 1: You know, like I could totally I could get into

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Speaker 1: flow for a task that's effortless that I enjoy. So

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Speaker 1: many times I get into flow, and that's when you

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Speaker 1: have to ring me back in and say stop talking

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Speaker 1: for a minute. I get into flow for tasks like this.

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Speaker 1: I love it. It's just it's really enjoyable. For five

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Speaker 1: years of looking and searching and searching for the answer

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Speaker 1: to my questions, I finally feel like I found them

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Speaker 1: and I want to shout it from the rooftops. But

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Speaker 1: what do you do when it's a task you don't enjoy?

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Speaker 1: How do you get into flow? Doing your taxes? She said,

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Speaker 1: Mahi doesn't tell you. And so that's what I wanted

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Speaker 1: to accomplish with this book, is how do you do

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Speaker 1: the things that are full of these painful internal triggers

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Speaker 1: that we are just dying to escape. Getting into flow

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Speaker 1: is easy for a task you love. What if it's

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Speaker 1: for a task you don't so much love, Or what

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Speaker 1: if it's for a task that starts out fun but

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Speaker 1: then gets tedious, like playing with your kid. I love

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Speaker 1: my daughter's death. She is she's an only child. I

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Speaker 1: love her so much I can't even tell you. But

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Speaker 1: after about an hour, I've had enough and I start

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Speaker 1: getting bored. And for a long time I blamed myself

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Speaker 1: because the self help industrial complex tells you that if

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Speaker 1: you're not happy, if you're not satisfied, something's wrong with you.

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Speaker 1: And nothing could be further from the truth that we

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Speaker 1: are designed. Evolution has designed us to never be satisfied.

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Speaker 1: That is part of our evolutionary heritage. Perpetual being perpetually

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Speaker 1: perturbed is an advantage, it's an adaptation. If there was

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Speaker 1: ever a tribe of Homo sapiens who is satisfied and happy,

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Speaker 1: we killed them and probably ate them because they would

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Speaker 1: have survived. So these internal triggers are not necessarily bad.

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Speaker 1: Internal triggers are what gets you to work hard, right,

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Speaker 1: It's what helps us discover life saving medicine and overturn

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Speaker 1: despots and shoot for the stars. I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: a great thing to be harnessed, but we also need

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Speaker 1: to know that it can hurt us if we don't

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Speaker 1: take the appropriate action when we feel those internal triggers.

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Speaker 1: So there's nothing wrong with the fact that after about

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Speaker 1: an hour of time with a toddler, I needed a break, right,

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Speaker 1: So what I need to do was to plan that accordingly,

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Speaker 1: to say, okay, it's fine that you know, after about

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Speaker 1: a certain enough time, Daddy needs a little break, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So I need to plan that in as opposed to

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Speaker 1: thinking that if somehow I'm not enjoying every second, that

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Speaker 1: there's something wrong with me. So that would be an

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Speaker 1: example of doing something about the internal trigger as opposed

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Speaker 1: to simply coping with it.

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Speaker 2: I like that example. I'm sure there are a lot

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Speaker 2: of parents listening right now with relief to hear you

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Speaker 2: say that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and another thing we did, by the way, we

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Speaker 1: have this what we call it. So I found that

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Speaker 1: the things that she liked to do. I didn't enjoy

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Speaker 1: very much, right, like, how many games of Uno can

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Speaker 1: you play? I just got tired of after a while. So,

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Speaker 1: again going back to this concept of change, the source

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Speaker 1: of the discomfort, we sat down together and we wrote

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Speaker 1: down one hundred things we both enjoy. We wrote down

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Speaker 1: every single one of these hundred things on a little

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Speaker 1: slip of paper. We rolled them up, and we put

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Speaker 1: them in this little glass jar. And every time we

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Speaker 1: have time together on our schedule to play, we don't

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Speaker 1: say or what do you want to do? What do

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Speaker 1: you want to do? We don't waste our time going

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Speaker 1: back and forth, or we don't just jump to what

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Speaker 1: she wants to do. We go to what we call

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Speaker 1: the fun jar, and the fun jar has these hundred

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Speaker 1: things that both of us enjoy. We pull one out

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Speaker 1: and we just do it. So now I don't feel

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Speaker 1: those internal triggers of wanting to escape all the time,

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Speaker 1: because I genuinely enjoy these tasks that we play together.

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Speaker 2: I really like that it reminds me of something that

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Speaker 2: I do. It was inspired actually via the Power of

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Speaker 2: Moments by the Heath Brothers. I imagine you've probably read

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Speaker 2: the Power of Moments.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I remember it was school holiday time and you

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Speaker 2: kind of you almost feel this anticipatory guilt as a parent, going,

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Speaker 2: oh gosh, got to do great things over the school

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Speaker 2: holidays to provide a great experience for my child. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: we literally wrote down I think it was about twenty

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Speaker 2: different activities that we thought would be fun to do,

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Speaker 2: and every day we would pick them out of a jar.

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Speaker 2: And it made me feel like every day I could

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Speaker 2: create a special moment. But I do like the idea

433
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: of making sure that there are things that you both

434
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: enjoy doing. I'm not sure that everything in that JAT

435
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 2: ticked that list for myself and my husband. There are

436
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 2: so many strategies in the book, which I love because

437
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 2: I think there's such variety for the reader, and I

438
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 2: want to know if for you personally, which are the

439
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: strategies that you still use or that you have used,

440
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 2: you know to the greatest effect. I guess in your

441
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 2: own life.

442
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 1: Oh, I use them all every day. So one of

443
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 1: the perks of inventing your own words. So I invented

444
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: this word indistractable. It didn't exist before I just made

445
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: it up. And one of the perks of being able

446
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: to make up your own word is that you get

447
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 1: to define it any way you wish. And so the

448
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: definition of indistractable is a person who strives to do

449
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: as they say they're going to do. It doesn't mean

450
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: you never get distracted. I still get distracted from time

451
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: to time, probably every day, there's some distraction in my life.

452
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 1: The idea, however, is that I'm the kind of person

453
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: who strives to do what they say they're going to do,

454
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 1: so I don't continually get distracted by the same things.

455
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: There's that quote that insanity is doing the same thing

456
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: and expecting different results. And so you know, I'm no

457
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: longer this idiot that gets distracted day after day and

458
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: wonders why did this happen? Yet again, today I didn't

459
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: finish that to do is on my to do list?

460
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: Yet again today I was distracted when I wanted to

461
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 1: spend time with people I love, or yet again I

462
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: didn't do my writing for the day, or whatever it

463
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: might be. Now I know why. I can point to

464
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: the simple four part model, and I can say, ah,

465
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: I see it was that internal trigger that I didn't

466
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: cope with with an effective strategy. What can I do

467
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: about that I didn't make time for traction. How can

468
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: I fix that? I didn't hack back this external trigger?

469
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 1: What can I do to correct that? How can And

470
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: then the last step, how can I prevent the distraction

471
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 1: next time with some sort of pact. So it's really

472
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 1: about using these four strategies in concert. The strategy is

473
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: more important than the tactic. Right, Tactics are what we do.

474
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: Strategy is why we do it. And understanding the strategy

475
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: of these simple you know, these four simple parts is

476
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: very very important. That's how we become indistractable because then

477
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: we as individuals can make up our own tactics. So

478
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: in the book, you read my tactics, and I've collected

479
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: a lot of good ones in there. But you know,

480
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: people will also come up with their own tactics that

481
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: are customized to their specific situation.

482
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: Are there any particular tactics that you find yourself using

483
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: more frequently Perhaves?

484
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: Sure, So let's see we can talk about all four

485
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: of them. I'll give you kind of my my most

486
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: frequently used tactics for the four strategies. So when it

487
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 1: comes to internal triggers, you know, writing for me is

488
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: really hard work. It's never been effortless. It takes a

489
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: lot of time, a lot of concentration, and it's full

490
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 1: of internal triggers boredom, uncertainty, fear, fatigue, lots of internal triggers.

491
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: I seek to escape. And what's so pernicious about it

492
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: is that, you know, distraction tricks you. So in the

493
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: middle of writing, I'll get this idea, Oh, you know,

494
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: I should probably check email real quick, because that's productive.

495
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: That's kind of worky, isn't it. Well, it's a distraction,

496
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: even though it feels worky. It's a distraction because that's

497
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: not what I plan to do with my time. I

498
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: plan to write. So I use a few techniques. One

499
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,479
Speaker 1: of them is called surfing the urge, which is just

500
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: when you note. The first step is to note the sensation. Okay,

501
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 1: so you tell yourself, Okay, I'm feeling anxious right now,

502
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: I'm feeling fearful about this. Is this essay going to

503
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: be any good? Is anybody going to want to read it?

504
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 1: This is boring? Whatever the sensation might be, you write

505
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: that sensation down and I give people this tool that

506
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: they can download on my website. I'll give you the

507
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: link of the show notes for a distraction tracker where

508
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 1: you simply note that sensation. That's incredibly empowering, just to

509
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: write down what you felt and don't explore it with contempt.

510
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: A lot of people will jump as I used to,

511
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: to beating themselves up. Oh you see I have an

512
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: addictive personality, or you see I can short attention span,

513
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: or whatever the case might be. Instead of what we

514
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: want to do is to explore it with curiosity, not contempt.

515
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: And what we find is that when we surf the

516
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: urge kind of like a surfer on a surfboard, we

517
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: find that our emotions are like waves. They just kind

518
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,239
Speaker 1: of rise, they crest, and then they subside. And if

519
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: we can allow ourselves to be curious about that sensation

520
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: as opposed to trying to resist it with abstinence, and

521
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: in fact, it's been shown that abstinence leads to rumination,

522
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: which can actually make the problem worse, we can simply affect,

523
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: accept that sensation and allow it to wash over us.

524
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: So that's surfing. The urge technique is what I use

525
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: every day when it comes to make time for traction.

526
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,719
Speaker 1: That's a technique I use. I couldn't function without it.

527
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: You know, the key principle here being that we have

528
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: no right to call something a distraction unless we know

529
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: what it distracted us from. So everything is in my

530
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: calendar my values. If you looked at my calendar, you

531
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: would know what my values are, not just what I

532
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: say they are. This is how I used to be

533
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: if you said to me, okay, what are you value

534
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: in life? Oh? My kid, my friends, my family, my health.

535
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: But I didn't make time for those things in my calendar.

536
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: So of course they didn't get the attention in time

537
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: they deserved, and I allowed time for all kinds of

538
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: stupid distractions that weren't aligned with my values. So I

539
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: make time for traction every single day, the things that

540
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: you know, the values in my life. Then I hack

541
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: back the external triggers the third step. So this involves

542
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: you know, not only my phone and computer, you know,

543
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: all the digital distraction, the potential distractions, but also in

544
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: my environment. So right now, what I plan to do

545
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: was to speak to you. So that means that I

546
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: have a sign on my door that says that I'm

547
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: not to be disturbed in my little home office. I

548
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: have a tool that's as part of the book. Actually,

549
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: every hard copy comes with with what I call a

550
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: screen signs of card stock that you pull out of

551
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: the book, you fold into thirds, and you put it

552
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: on your computer monitor. Because it turns out that one

553
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: of the most common forms of distraction is the co worker, right,

554
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: a colleague coming by and saying, hey, check out this

555
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: bit of office gossip I got to tell you about.

556
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: That is itself a very common source of distraction. So

557
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: this simple screen sign says to your colleagues, I'm indistractable,

558
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: please come back later. So that's a way of hacking

559
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: back these external triggers that don't serve us. And then, finally,

560
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: the last step when it comes to preventing distraction with pacts,

561
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: this is all about keeping out those distracted keeping i'm sorry,

562
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: keeping ourselves in so that we don't do something we

563
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: don't want to do with some kind of pre commitment device.

564
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: So an app I use every day is called Forest.

565
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,479
Speaker 1: It's a free app. It's on my iPhone, and this

566
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: is how it works. Simply, you open this app, you

567
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: put in how much time you want to do focused

568
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: work for and a little virtual tree is planted right,

569
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: so the entire screen is taken up by this little

570
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: virtual tree. If you pick up the phone and try

571
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: and do anything with it. The virtual tree dies. That's

572
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: a stupid little virtual tree. Who cares, right, But it's

573
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: enough of a reminder that you've made a pre commitment,

574
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: that you've made a pact with yourself, and it reminds

575
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: you that using the phone for some other purpose is

576
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: not what you wanted to do with your time. So

577
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: that's how I've used these four strategies in concert with

578
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: a few techniques. There's a lot more in the book,

579
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,719
Speaker 1: but that's kind of the thirty thousand foot view.

580
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. And I remember reading about the forest

581
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: app in the book and thinking, ah, I got to

582
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: give that agorry is that sounds amazingly effective. I want

583
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 2: to come back to what you were saying about your

584
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: calendar and your calendar reflecting your values. And in the

585
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: book you talk about time boxing, and I guess, like

586
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: blocking out time for doing things as opposed to just

587
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: running off a to do list, I guess, and having

588
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 2: lots of free time and then sort of self managing

589
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: on the go.

590
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: I guess.

591
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: I'm curious, like, what does like if I were looking

592
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 2: at your calendar, what would I see? Would I say

593
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: everything blocked at hour by hour? Like can you give

594
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 2: me a sense of what I would see.

595
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. So this technique is very well studied. It's called

596
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: setting an implementation intention. Thousands of studies have found this

597
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: is a highly effective technique. And I can't believe I

598
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: didn't do this sooner. This is a life changing practice.

599
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: Time boxing simply means that we are deciding what we

600
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: do in advance and when we do it. And so

601
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: it's just as simple as plotting out in your day

602
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: what your ideal day would look like and so, and

603
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: you're doing this in advance. I mean, if there's one

604
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: motto from this book, I want everyone to remember, maybe

605
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: tattooed on your arm or something, and it'll be a

606
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: future tattoo is. The antidote for impulsiveness is forethought. The

607
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: antidote too impulsiveness is forethoughts. It doesn't matter what the

608
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: tech companies throw at us, what the algorithms do, None

609
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: of that stuff matters. If we plan ahead, we can

610
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: do something that no other animal on earth can do,

611
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: which is to see the future with greater fidelity than

612
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: any other species. And so we can plan ahead for

613
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: these distractions. And that starts by making time on our

614
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: calendar to live at our values. So I have starting

615
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: at seven fifteen, breakfast until eight, and then I work

616
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: out from eight to nine, and then I have my

617
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: writing time from nine to eleven thirty, and then I

618
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: make and eat lunch from eleven thirty or twelve thirty

619
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: and so on. So it's every minute of my day

620
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: is planned out. Now do I go off track? Of

621
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: course I do. But you can't even begin to ask

622
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: what is a distraction unless you know what it distracted

623
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: you from. So you have to have an allocation of time,

624
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: or you can't call anything a distraction because what did

625
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: it distract you from? You had a blank calendar. So

626
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: this technique is ridibly effective. Unfortunately, very few people do

627
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,959
Speaker 1: it this technique. However, one group of people use this

628
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: uses this Almost one hundred percent of the people I

629
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: interviewed among this group use this technique when I was

630
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: doing the research for the book, and these are sea

631
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: level executives. Without fail, every sea level executive I interviewed

632
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: does this. They walk around their entire day either on

633
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: their phone or on a piece paper, with a printed

634
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: schedule for where they're supposed to be, what they're supposed

635
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: to do for every minute of their day and it's

636
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: absolutely essential technique. And the nice thing is it's relatively

637
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: easy to do. It takes you about thirty minutes to

638
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: set up the first time, and about fifteen minutes per

639
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: week to keep it updated for the week ahead. And

640
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: in fact, I'll give you a link in the show notes.

641
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: I built a tool because I kept getting asked for this.

642
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: I built a very very simple tool anyone can use

643
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: to make this weekly template so that they know what

644
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: their ideal week looks like.

645
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: Oh that sounds great. Yeah, I love the idea of that.

646
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: It's funny. It's something I've started doing recently. I used

647
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: to just like, if you looked at my calendar, you

648
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: would see from eight am to noon basically blocked out,

649
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: and it would just say deep work, do not book

650
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 2: over and I would and then I'd have my deep

651
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 2: work to do list, and that is how I would

652
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: feel it. But inevitably I would get distracted with other things.

653
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 2: And I remember I had Cal Newport on the show

654
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 2: a few months ago, and he's definitely an advocate of timeboxing,

655
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 2: and yeah, I remember I started trying it naturally, just

656
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 2: blocking out. Okay, write this article here, and I think

657
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: that'll take about an hour. And then do this there

658
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: and it really does change your day and change the

659
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: way you do things. And then you know, I find

660
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 2: that if I overestimate how long something is going to

661
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: go for in the Dari, I just feel feel a

662
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: little bit of a win when I've achieved something a

663
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: little bit more quickly, and then I can move something

664
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 2: from the next day. So yeah, I found that incredibly effective.

665
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, it's a very very effective technique and it's

666
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: so simple. It just requires a little bit of forethought.

667
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 1: You know, there's this myth if you just put something

668
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 1: on a to do list, it'll get done, right, that's

669
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 1: on a lot of productivity books preaches put on to

670
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: do list and it'll get done. And that's only half

671
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 1: of the solution. The other half. You can't just put

672
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: down output and what you put on to do list

673
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 1: is output. You also have to put down the input,

674
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: right if you're a baker, you know, if a baker

675
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: wants to make a hundred loads of bread, they don't

676
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: just write down make a hundred loads of bread. They

677
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: have to think about the inputs. The bread, the flower,

678
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: the staff, the machinery. All those things are inputs. So

679
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: as knowledge workers, we put these things on our to

680
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 1: do list, But if you don't actually put it on

681
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: your calendar, it's not going to get done. You have

682
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: to put on your calendar.

683
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: And I like what you talked about in the book

684
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 2: about scheduling time for important relationships, and like, how does

685
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: this work in your life with family and friends? Like

686
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: how do you go about doing that?

687
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, so this is this is a great example

688
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: of turning your values into time. That if family and

689
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: friends are important to you, time with them is important

690
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: to you. And I'm not saying they need to be

691
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: by the way. Everybody should live according to their own values.

692
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: But if one of your values is to be the

693
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: kind of person who is an available parent or a

694
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: loving spouse or someone who has close personal relationships, then

695
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: that time as well needs to be on your calendar.

696
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: So there's a few techniques there. Of course, I schedule

697
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: date days with my wife, I schedule playtime with my child,

698
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: and I also regular occurrences with my friends. So there's

699
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 1: a two for one that I do just this morning.

700
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: In fact, on Tuesdays and Fridays, I have some of

701
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: my writing friends come over and so we do this

702
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: for two reasons. One, it's just great to see my

703
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: friends that they come over in the morning. And two

704
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: I'm using a pre commitment device. This is step number

705
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: four of preventing distraction with packs. They come over, we

706
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 1: have about fifteen minutes. How you do and what's going on? Okay,

707
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 1: latest update on your life? Great? And then we get

708
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 1: to work and we just work next to each other.

709
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: And having that ability to work next to each other

710
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: keeps us on task, right because we set a time

711
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: where we actually use the forest app. We push forty

712
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: five minutes, you know, That's how much time we do

713
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: our little sprint for and everybody gets to work and

714
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: nobody's distracted because everybody else is working. So there's this

715
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: kind of social proof to stay on task. And then

716
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: at the end of the forty five minutes, we take

717
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: another fifteen minute break and we chit chat some more,

718
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: we catch up with each other, so that again is

719
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: in my calendar. There's another technique called the kibbutz, which

720
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 1: we did for many years. I recently moved to New York,

721
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: so we haven't picked this back up again, but we

722
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: will soon. We don't know as many people in New

723
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: York as we used to in the Bay Area, but

724
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: for must have been five six years. Every two weeks,

725
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: we would get together with our friends, same place, same time,

726
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 1: and we would talk and kids and devices were not allowed, right,

727
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: so no cell phones, and if a child interrupted, they

728
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: were allowed to listen, but if they were if they interrupted,

729
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: they reprimanded because remember, our children can also be distractions. Now,

730
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: of course, if a child is very young that they

731
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: can't control themselves. They can't control necessarily whether they interrupt

732
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: or not. But as soon as a child understands, look,

733
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: these are my friends and my friends are important to me,

734
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: we need to model that behavior. Our children need to

735
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: see what an adult friendship looks like. And so we

736
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: told them, look, these people are very important to me

737
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: in my life. And unless someone's bleeding, do not interrupt.

738
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: You can listen, but you can't interrupt. And the most

739
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: important thing was that this time was on our calendars.

740
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: Everybody knew where to be and when to be there

741
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: every week.

742
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 2: That's so cool. And I'm struck by what you said

743
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 2: in terms of scheduling playtime with your daughter. You must

744
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: get people kind of reacting to that, going, oh, you

745
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 2: really schedule playtime, but like, what does that look like

746
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: in your diary? Like is it sort of blocking out chunks,

747
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: you know, in sort of after work, after school hours,

748
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 2: Like what does that look like?

749
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, that's exactly what it is. Time for us

750
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: to take off the fun jar from the shelf and

751
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: decide what we want to do with our time. But

752
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 1: that time is in the schedule.

753
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: That's cool. And how have you helped your daughter develop

754
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: a healthy relationship with technology?

755
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is this is a very pertinent topic

756
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: because I think for a lot of parents, uh, we

757
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 1: jump to the easy answers, We jump to a technologies

758
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: doing it to them, right, they're there. Uh, these technology

759
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: companies are addicting our kids. And it's just another excuse

760
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: that our parents that that we parents use uh to

761
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: explain behaviors we don't like, whether it's the sugar high

762
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 1: or or rock and roll or heavy metal, or video

763
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: games or you know all these Every generation has this uh,

764
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 1: this moral panic around something that parents use to to

765
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 1: blame their kids crazy behavior on. And it turns out

766
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: that you know, we can empower our kids to make

767
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: these kind of decisions. Uh. And and the important word

768
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: here is empower h chill as well as adults need autonomy.

769
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: It's one of our three basic psychological nutrients. According to

770
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: self determination, theory of competency, autonomy, and relatedness, these three

771
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: things are incredibly important for our psychological well being. And

772
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: if we don't get these things offline, we look for

773
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: them online. And so it's incredibly important to really understand

774
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: our kids internal triggers. What are they escaping from exactly

775
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: when they overuse technology?

776
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 2: Right?

777
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: What uncomfortable sensations are they escaping from. Is it the

778
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: fact that they don't get enough playtime. Is it the

779
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: fact that they don't get enough time with their friends.

780
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: Is it that they don't feel competent at school? Yeah,

781
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: a lot of our kids don't experience these enough of

782
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: these psychological nutrients. So the tech companies are more than

783
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: happy to provide it to them online. And so that's

784
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: where we have to start with these internal triggers. Then

785
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 1: we have to make time for traction, right. Our kids

786
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: need a schedule as well. Of course, most of their

787
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: day is scheduled at school, but also we need to

788
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: make time for free play. All there's a crisis at

789
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: least in the States of kids not having time for

790
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: free play. Our kids are so overscheduled these days, they

791
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: don't have time in their day to just play, and

792
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: it's incredibly important. Then we have to hack back the

793
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: external triggers. So I'm a big advocate of having no

794
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: screens in kids' bedrooms. There's no reason a child needs

795
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: to have any kind of flickering or flashing or buzzing

796
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: device in their rooms overnight. The science is pretty unequivocal

797
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 1: that kids need sleep. So whether it's television, laptops, phones,

798
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: those things need to be outside of their bedroom to

799
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: hack back those external triggers. And we shouldn't give our

800
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 1: kids these devices unless we know they know how to

801
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: turn them off. And then finally, we can prevent distraction

802
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: with packs. We can teach them how to use technology

803
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: to make sure they don't get distracted. So, for example,

804
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 1: my child, we take We gave her agency, we gave

805
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: her control by asking her how much time she'd like

806
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: to spend with screens per day. It was her choice,

807
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: and we explained that it's not that these technologies are

808
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: melting her brain or are somehow bad for her. That's

809
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: not true, The science doesn't support it. What we explained

810
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: to her was that the cost of using these technologies

811
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: is an opportunity cost of that's time away playing with

812
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: your friends. That's time away from going to the park.

813
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 1: That's time away from being with us or reading a book.

814
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: And so how much time do you think you'd like

815
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: to spend on this screen? And she said forty five minutes. Well,

816
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: she actually said two episodes, meaning two episodes of a

817
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: Netflix show, which comes down to forty five minutes. Great,

818
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: there's no problem. Not one study has shown that two

819
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 1: hours or less of age appropriate screen time has any

820
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: deleterious effects on kids. So forty five minutes is just fine.

821
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: Now she is in charge of policing herself. So what

822
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: does she do. She goes over to the Amazon Alexa

823
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: and says, Alexa, set the timer for forty five minutes

824
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: or today, she actually has us built into the iPad

825
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: with the Apple screen time. And now it's the devices

826
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: telling her that time is up. It's not me, you know,

827
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: we're not getting into a war anymore, telling her get

828
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: off your phone or you know, get off the iPad.

829
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: It's the device telling her that it's her time is

830
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: up because she set the device to do that. So

831
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: that's an example of a pre commitment. Uh. And then finally,

832
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: the last thing in addition to these four basic steps.

833
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: We have to set a good example that we can't

834
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: be hypocrites and say get off your you know, get

835
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 1: off your phone or stop playing Fortnite when we're checking email.

836
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: We have to become indistractable ourselves as parents to set

837
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: a good example.

838
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 2: It's such a good point. I love that that that

839
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: that sort of example with your daughter. It's something. And

840
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 2: I know you're right about self determination theory in the book,

841
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: which is, you know, such a beautiful theory to apply

842
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 2: to children and making sure that we do give them

843
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 2: enough autonomy. For example, I know, I my daughter, she's

844
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 2: five and a half, and every morning there sort of

845
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 2: three things that she has to or wants to do

846
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: every morning. She has to practice writing, she has to

847
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: practice a new set of words, her orange words as

848
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: they're called, that she's just been given by the school.

849
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 2: And then she gets to spend ten minutes doing reading eggs,

850
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 2: which is a kind of a writing and reading app

851
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 2: on the iPad. And that's her favorite thing, not surprisingly,

852
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 2: out of those three tasks. And so every morning I'm like, Okay,

853
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: what order do you want to do them? And and just

854
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 2: kind of giving her that autonomy. And I think, you know,

855
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: a lot of parents might think, oh, well, surely they

856
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 2: won't know at that age, But I think it's just

857
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 2: so nice to be able to give them autonomy that

858
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 2: is age appropriate to really help them, you know, develop

859
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: better relationships with the devices. So, you know, I just

860
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 2: love what you said about your daughter.

861
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: Oh, I was just going to say that the ultimate goal.

862
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: Let's remember, you know, our job as parents is to

863
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: raise future adults. Right, So if we take away their autonomy,

864
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: their ability to practice this muscle of making their own

865
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: decisions and holding themselves accountable, what's going to happen when

866
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: they leave the household? Well, even as children, not only

867
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: about what happens when they go to university, but what

868
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: happens when they're just out of our site. You know,

869
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: my daughter has friends her age, and as soon as

870
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 1: those friends come over, they do all the things their

871
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 1: parents don't allow them to do because their parents aren't watching. Well,

872
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 1: that's not the kind of kid you want to raise.

873
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: You want to raise the kind of kid that knows

874
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: why they shouldn't binge on sugar or why they shouldn't

875
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: be on their devices all day, not the kid that

876
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 1: only does what you tell them to do when you're watching.

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00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely. Now we are just about out of time.

878
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 2: So my final question for UNI is if people want

879
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: to get their hands on a copy of Indestractable or

880
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: any of anything else that you do, what is the

881
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 2: best way to do that?

882
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: Thank you? Yeah, my website is Near and Far dot com.

883
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: So near a spelt like my first name and I

884
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: are so near and far dot com. That's my website

885
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 1: and specifically for the book. The book is called Indiestractable,

886
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: how to Control your attention and Choose your life. And

887
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: you can find more information free resources. There's an eighty

888
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: page free work that you can download all at indistractable

889
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: dot com. And that's I N the word distract A

890
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: B L E so in distractable dot com.

891
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 2: Fantastic Nia. I've loved chatting to you, Gosh, I could

892
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: chat to you for several hours more of it. I

893
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: know that you've got another commitment, So thank you so

894
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 2: much for coming on the show.

895
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: My pleasure, Thanks so much for having me.

896
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 2: Hey there, that is it for today's show. If you

897
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 2: like this episode, why not share it with some other

898
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,919
Speaker 2: people who you think might be able to benefit, Maybe

899
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: people that glued to their mobile phones and distractions all

900
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: through the day because I just think there's so much

901
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 2: wonderful advice in this chat, and if you're enjoying how

902
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 2: I work, maybe you might want to leave a review

903
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 2: in Apple Podcasts. That is a wonderful way to give

904
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: feedback to the podcast work that I do. I read

905
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: every single review and they do bring a very big

906
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 2: smile to my face, so I'm very appreciative for anyone

907
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 2: that does write a review. So that's it for today

908
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 2: and I'll see you next time.