WEBVTT - Why is a Senator suing Brittany Higgins?

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is the daily This is.

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<v Speaker 2>The Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Wednesday,

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<v Speaker 1>the fourteenth of August. I'm zara, i'm emma wa. Senator

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<v Speaker 1>Linda Reynolds is suing former Liberal staff for Britney Higgins

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<v Speaker 1>for defamation. Now. It's the latest in a very long

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<v Speaker 1>string of lawsuits that have been unfolding since Higgins first

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<v Speaker 1>came out publicly with allegations against her former colleague Bruce Lherman.

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<v Speaker 1>In today's deep Dive, we're going to explain why a

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<v Speaker 1>senator is suing her former staffa the case has heard

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<v Speaker 1>so far, and what could happen next. But first, m

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<v Speaker 1>what's making headlines.

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<v Speaker 2>Wage growth has outpaced inflation rising prices for the third

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<v Speaker 2>consecutive quarter, according to new national data. The latest Wage

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<v Speaker 2>Price Index from the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows annual

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<v Speaker 2>wages grew by four point one percent over the year

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<v Speaker 2>to June, ahead of the current rate of inflation, which

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<v Speaker 2>is three point eight percent. This suggests more Australians are

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<v Speaker 2>seeing an increase in their real wage, which is how

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<v Speaker 2>much their pay has increased compared to rising prices, but

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<v Speaker 2>wage growth is predicted to slow over the next year

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<v Speaker 2>as the government and Reserve Bank continue efforts to lower inflation.

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<v Speaker 2>Wages for workers in the private sector row zero point

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<v Speaker 2>seven percent in the three months to June, the equal

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<v Speaker 2>lowest quarterly rise for the sector since December twenty twenty one.

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<v Speaker 1>The federal government will introduce legislation aimed at strengthening Robodet

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<v Speaker 1>investigations and holding current and former public service leaders to account.

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<v Speaker 1>Robodet was an unlawful automated debt collection system that was

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<v Speaker 1>designed to recover funds from welfare recipients. Under a government

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<v Speaker 1>proposal announced this week, the Australian Public Service Commissioner would

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<v Speaker 1>be given additional powers to investigate senior officials involved in robodet.

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<v Speaker 1>Public Service Minister Katie Gallahas said the bill will give

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<v Speaker 1>the Commissioner unambiguous power to investigate former agency heads.

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<v Speaker 2>The Court of Arbitration for Sport won't consider new evidence

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<v Speaker 2>relating to an Olympic bronze medal dispute. USA Gymnastics has

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<v Speaker 2>announced US gymnast Jordan Chiles originally placed fifth in the

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<v Speaker 2>women's floor final, but her score was revised up to

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<v Speaker 2>third after her coach appealed it. The Court of Arbitration

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<v Speaker 2>and Independent Global body ruled in favor of a complaint

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<v Speaker 2>from two Romanian gymnasts, who argued the appeal was submitted

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<v Speaker 2>outside the required time frame. USA Gymnastics submitted video evidence

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<v Speaker 2>urging the court to reconsider, but the CIS has refused

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<v Speaker 2>to do so. US officials said they would pursue every

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<v Speaker 2>possible avenue and appeal process to let Chiles keep her medal.

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<v Speaker 2>This could include appealing to the Swiss Federal Tribunal, where

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<v Speaker 2>the cas IS based.

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<v Speaker 1>And today's good news. In a first of its kind discovery,

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<v Speaker 1>scientists have found water on the surface of Mars, bringing

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<v Speaker 1>them a step closer to understanding the planet's past. A

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<v Speaker 1>pocket of liquid with large volumes of water was found

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<v Speaker 1>up to twenty kilometers deep in the rocky outer crust

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<v Speaker 1>of the planet, where it's believed to have been for

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<v Speaker 1>more than three billion years. Scientists have found water on

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<v Speaker 1>Mars before, but it was previously in a frozen or

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<v Speaker 1>vapor state. Just a quick heads up that this deep

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<v Speaker 1>dive does deal with matters including sexual violence, so if

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<v Speaker 1>you're not in the right head frame to listen to

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<v Speaker 1>this today, feel free to jump back on tomorrow now.

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<v Speaker 1>And we have spoken many times about Britney Higgins on

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<v Speaker 1>this podcast before. Those episodes were mostly around at first

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<v Speaker 1>the criminal case against Bruce Lherman that was later dropped,

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<v Speaker 1>and then Lehman's defamation case against Network ten that he lost.

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<v Speaker 1>But today we're talking about a different case, and that

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<v Speaker 1>is because a new case has been brought by WA

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<v Speaker 1>Senator Linda Reynolds. Linda Reynolds is suing her former staff

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<v Speaker 1>for Britney Higgins for defamation.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, so lots to unpack there, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>off the bat Worth acknowledging that this is a really

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<v Speaker 2>complicated one. So before we talk about this latest case,

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<v Speaker 2>for the sake of all of us who might be

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<v Speaker 2>feeling a little bit lost, can you run us through

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<v Speaker 2>some of the background and how we got here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes. So, in twenty twenty one, Britney Higgins publicly alleged

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<v Speaker 1>that she had been raped by at that point an

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<v Speaker 1>unnamed co worker in Parliament House. That coworker turned out

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<v Speaker 1>to be Bruce Lherman, and Lhman's criminal trial later failed

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<v Speaker 1>due to dura misconduct. A retrial was eventually abandoned due

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<v Speaker 1>to concerns about Higgins's mental health. So that was the

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<v Speaker 1>criminal elements of the case that was kind of put

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<v Speaker 1>on hold, never really to be revisited. But then you

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<v Speaker 1>might remember more recently that Lehman launched a defamation case

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<v Speaker 1>in the federal court. So this was a civil case.

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<v Speaker 1>He was claiming that he was identifiable in the initial

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<v Speaker 1>coverage of Higgins's allegation, so he was suggesting that he

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<v Speaker 1>had been defamed.

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<v Speaker 2>And that was in a series of interviews with Higgins

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<v Speaker 2>relating to the allegations.

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<v Speaker 1>It was and that was a really long case. There

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<v Speaker 1>were many twists and turns. I think we did two

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<v Speaker 1>or three episodes on it. Ultimately, the judge in that

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<v Speaker 1>civil case found that it was more likely than not

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<v Speaker 1>and that's the threshold that had to be met that

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<v Speaker 1>Lehman raped Higgins, and therefore Lehman lost that case. You

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<v Speaker 1>might remember Justice Lee, who was presiding over the case.

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<v Speaker 1>He told Lerman that having escaped the lions Den, he

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<v Speaker 1>made the mistake of going back for his hat. That's

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<v Speaker 1>the case. Just to jog people's memory. Lehman, who maintains

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<v Speaker 1>his innocence, has since lodged an appeal. So criminal case

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<v Speaker 1>they weren't continuing civil case. There was an outcome, but

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<v Speaker 1>Bruce Lherman is now appealing. Now we have another case.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So that civil defamation case wrapped in April, or

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<v Speaker 2>for now wrapped in April, and I think many of

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<v Speaker 2>us might have presumed that that was going to be

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<v Speaker 2>the last time this story would be in the headlines.

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<v Speaker 2>As you mentioned, the criminal proceedings were abandoned, the defamation

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<v Speaker 2>case seemed to have been wrapped up. But now this

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<v Speaker 2>story has taken another turn. We have a third player

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<v Speaker 2>entering the story. At this point, YE talk to me

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<v Speaker 2>about Linda Reynolds and this case.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, as I said at the top, Linda Reynolds

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<v Speaker 1>is suing Britney Higgins for defamation and that's over some

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<v Speaker 1>of Higgins's social media posts, and we'll go into what

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<v Speaker 1>those posts are a little later, but before we do,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that it's just a very important context to

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<v Speaker 1>explain the relationship between the two women, because I had

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<v Speaker 1>almost forgotten Linda Reynolds was the boss of Britney Higgins

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<v Speaker 1>when Higgins alleges that she was raped. Importantly, it was

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<v Speaker 1>also in Linda Reynolds's office that Britney Higgins alleges that

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<v Speaker 1>the rape occurred.

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<v Speaker 2>After Britney Higgins went public with those allegations, I remember

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<v Speaker 2>there being criticism about Reynold's handling of the alleged incident

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<v Speaker 2>at the time, particularly Higgins criticizing Reynolds in a few

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<v Speaker 2>social media posts. Ye does that tie into these proceedings?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. So those are the social media posts that

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<v Speaker 1>Reynolds is basing this defamation case on. So there are

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<v Speaker 1>a number of posts, and I'm not going to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of read them word for word, but essentially at a

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<v Speaker 1>high level. In one of those posts, Higgins alleged that

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<v Speaker 1>Reynolds continues to harass her through the media. In another one,

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<v Speaker 1>which was an Instagram story, Higgins shared an article that

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<v Speaker 1>had been written about Reynolds and added text on top

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<v Speaker 1>of it on the Instagram story that said, instead of

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<v Speaker 1>solving the problem, there are people who would prefer to

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<v Speaker 1>just silence victims.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So with that in mind, Linda Reynolds is then

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<v Speaker 2>arguing that these social media posts have tarnished her reputation.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that the crux of.

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<v Speaker 1>It exactly, That's the essence of what a defamation case is.

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<v Speaker 1>And so this trial has now begun it's before the

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<v Speaker 1>WA Supreme Court at the moment. I will just add

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<v Speaker 1>that there were attempts to settle it out of court,

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<v Speaker 1>but all of those attempts failed, so it's made its

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<v Speaker 1>way into court. After Luhman's failed defamation case in April,

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<v Speaker 1>Higgins did issue a statement apologizing to Reynolds. It said,

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<v Speaker 1>I hope we can resolve our differences with a better

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<v Speaker 1>understanding of each other's experience. However, Reynolds didn't back down.

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<v Speaker 1>She said at the time that she was continuing with

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<v Speaker 1>a legal challenge to clear her name.

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<v Speaker 2>Also, probably worth flagging here that Linda Reynolds is a

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<v Speaker 2>federal senator, so in her capacity as Britney Higgins boss

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<v Speaker 2>when Higgins was a Liberal staffer, we're talking about Linda

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<v Speaker 2>Reynolds being a senator. Reynolds has indicated she will not

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<v Speaker 2>seek re election yet next year, so she will be

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<v Speaker 2>stepping away from politics in the near future.

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<v Speaker 1>Correct.

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<v Speaker 2>This case has been going on for a little while

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<v Speaker 2>now in the WA Supreme Court. As you mentioned, what

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<v Speaker 2>have we heard from Linda Reynolds and her lawyers? What

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<v Speaker 2>have they been arguing?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, there's been a lot to be frank and

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<v Speaker 1>I think that sometimes in the reporting of not just

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<v Speaker 1>this defamation case, but the two other cases that have

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<v Speaker 1>come before it, there has been a tendency to cover

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<v Speaker 1>every single detail, and I think that that says actually

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<v Speaker 1>to confuse a bit, So I do just want to

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<v Speaker 1>keep it really high level here. Essentially, Reynolds's case is

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<v Speaker 1>predicated on this idea that she believes the Britney Higgins

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<v Speaker 1>and her now husband David Scharraz had a plan to

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<v Speaker 1>publicly bring down Linda Reynolds and the government that she

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<v Speaker 1>was a part of, and she's saying that these social

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<v Speaker 1>media posts really just built that narrative. Reynolds has expressed

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<v Speaker 1>to the court that she, and I'm going to quote here,

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<v Speaker 1>felt like one of those punching clowns at the fairground.

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<v Speaker 1>You get punched down and punched down again, and you

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<v Speaker 1>have to get up smiling. The court heard that Reynolds's

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<v Speaker 1>health deteriorated quite dramatically after Britney Higgins's allegations were first

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<v Speaker 1>made public. She said that she was in pain from

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<v Speaker 1>a heart condition, she wasn't sleeping, and that at one

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<v Speaker 1>point she had to leave the Senate chamber she was

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<v Speaker 1>having a breakdown and sobbing uncontrollably. She was then hospitalized

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<v Speaker 1>and this was reported at the time. She then proceeded

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<v Speaker 1>to take three weeks away from her job. She said

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<v Speaker 1>that she has put her house on the line, everything

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<v Speaker 1>she's worked for forty years, putting everything on the line

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to be here and tell the truth.

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<v Speaker 1>So she is really here, suggesting that the effect of

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<v Speaker 1>Britney Higgins's allegations about the way that she handled the

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<v Speaker 1>situation had really seeped into all parts of her life,

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<v Speaker 1>not just her professional life. We had also heard from

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<v Speaker 1>Reynolds's partner who testified in the case. He said, the

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<v Speaker 1>whole saga has had an immeasurable impact on Linda, on myself,

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<v Speaker 1>It's affected every part of our life.

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<v Speaker 2>And so central to Reynolds's case then is this idea

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<v Speaker 2>that the saga has impacted her physically, mentally, in every

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<v Speaker 2>aspect of her life. And also this es that Higgins

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<v Speaker 2>and Schiraz had a calculated plan to bring her down

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<v Speaker 2>to damage her reputation exactly. And I saw headlines yesterday

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<v Speaker 2>about former Prime Minister Scott Morrison and this case. What

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<v Speaker 2>was that about?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So yesterday former PM Scott Morrison was asked to

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<v Speaker 1>give evidence in this case. So he testified, and he

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<v Speaker 1>appeared via videolink, and he told the court that he

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<v Speaker 1>believed that he had witnessed the quote weaponizing of the

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<v Speaker 1>issue for political purposes to discredit Senator Reynolds, the government

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<v Speaker 1>and by extension myself. Very strong language there from the

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<v Speaker 1>former Prime Minister.

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<v Speaker 2>Who was of course leader at the time of the alleged.

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<v Speaker 1>Rape exactly, and this was something that really ended up

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<v Speaker 1>defining his prime ministership and in some ways really determining

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<v Speaker 1>the election. And so when he was asked about when

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<v Speaker 1>he found out about Higgins's allegations, which again was this

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<v Speaker 1>really big point in the process, he said to the court,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm quoting here, as events transpired, Senator Reynolds chose

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<v Speaker 1>not to tell me out of respect for the confidence

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<v Speaker 1>that she had entered with miss Higgins. He also told

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<v Speaker 1>the court that Reynolds couldn't continue in her defense portfolio

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<v Speaker 1>because of health concerns, and that those health concerns were

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<v Speaker 1>related to the allegations and the fallout that followed. He said,

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<v Speaker 1>in reference to her cardiac condition. For a period there,

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<v Speaker 1>we were very concerned that this could be a fatal

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<v Speaker 1>outcome for her there he's referring to Senator Reynolds.

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<v Speaker 2>So some quite strong evidence from Scott Morrison. So we've

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<v Speaker 2>spoken about Linda Reynolds and why she has brought this

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<v Speaker 2>case against Britney Higgins, but what about higgins defense, How

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<v Speaker 2>has she responded and what have her legal team said.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, so Britney Higgins as lawyers are partly relying on

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<v Speaker 1>the truth defense, and the truth defense is essentially that

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<v Speaker 1>you can't defame someone if the content of what you're

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<v Speaker 1>saying is true. So essentially, in this case, it will

0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:02.719
<v Speaker 1>require lawyers to prove higgins comments were substantially true, including

0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:06.920
<v Speaker 1>that Linda Reynolds failed to provide adequate support or harassed her.

0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.240
<v Speaker 2>And so we've seen an example of this kind of

0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:14.199
<v Speaker 2>defense play out with the Lerman defamation case exactly, so

0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.200
<v Speaker 2>that he claimed he had been defamed, but that Network

0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:21.080
<v Speaker 2>ten argued he hadn't been defamed because the comments in

0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.280
<v Speaker 2>question were true. That they argued that he had raped

0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.880
<v Speaker 2>Britney Higgins and therefore aligning him with that offense was

0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:28.760
<v Speaker 2>not defamatory.

0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, And so that's what Higgins as lawyers are

0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.200
<v Speaker 1>in part trying to do here, suggesting that Linda Reynolds

0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.439
<v Speaker 1>was not supportive had continued to engage in a certain

0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.840
<v Speaker 1>way with Higgins and her partner. But Britney Higgins hasn't

0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:45.080
<v Speaker 1>had the opportunity yet to give evidence that is coming

0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.560
<v Speaker 1>later this month, so we haven't heard directly from her

0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.400
<v Speaker 1>in this case. One of her lawyers did say to

0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:54.199
<v Speaker 1>the court though, that the defamation proceedings are retraumatizing her

0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.960
<v Speaker 1>and there has been some conversation about whether a case

0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:03.600
<v Speaker 1>like this should be pursued by a senator against her

0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.960
<v Speaker 1>former staffer. And you know, both women have come under

0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.720
<v Speaker 1>significant financial stress as a result of this.

0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:16.760
<v Speaker 2>And we also know significant emotional distress based on Reynold's hospitalization, Higgins'

0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:20.720
<v Speaker 2>own hospitalization and her personal struggles that she has detailed.

0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.080
<v Speaker 2>So it certainly doesn't feel like there are really any

0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:27.240
<v Speaker 2>winners in this one, But we know that Britney Higgins

0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.600
<v Speaker 2>is expected to give evidence later this month. Proceedings are

0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:35.120
<v Speaker 2>expected to continue to September, and then who knows how

0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.840
<v Speaker 2>long a judgment could take before we get a final

0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.960
<v Speaker 2>decision on this. Regardless, we will stay across it and

0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.640
<v Speaker 2>keep you updated on the daily ODS. Thank you so

0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.440
<v Speaker 2>much for listening to today's episode of The Daily Ods.

0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:48.920
<v Speaker 2>If this one brought up any issues for you, you

0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.440
<v Speaker 2>can contact one eight hundred. Respect will pop some links

0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.040
<v Speaker 2>to further resources in our show notes. We'll be back

0:14:56.080 --> 0:15:00.120
<v Speaker 2>with another episode tomorrow. Until then, have a great day.

0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.040
<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:09.080
<v Speaker 1>Bugelung Calcoton woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 1>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest

0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.800
<v Speaker 1>Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the

0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.600
<v Speaker 1>first peoples of these countries, both past and present.